Halfling Monk?

[TheCrowing1432]

So Ive always been enamored by the old kung fu stereotype of "small, old man kicking butt"

But that small old man was once a young man too.

So the idea I had was, well, a halfling monk.

Are there any ideas to make this work?

Id probably stick to monk for 6 levels, which is usually the standard and then maybe dip into swordsage because i know theres a stance that gives you bonuses on fighting something larger then you.

But beyond that, I have no idea.

Any suggestions?

Heres what I have so far.


Strongheart Halfling

Unarmed Swordsage 7/Fighter 2

Str:10 (12 - 2)
Dex: 19 (17 +2)
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 13

1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3: Improved Natural Attack
6: Superior Unarmed Strike
9: Snap Kick
Fighter Bonus Feats:
1. Weapon Finese
2. ???

[MilesTiden]

*obligatory 'just go unarmed swordsage' here*

Seriously though, Setting Sun fits this perfectly.

[Crake]

*obligatory 'just go unarmed swordsage' here*

Seriously though, Setting Sun fits this perfectly.

Yeah, just go straight swordsage, it's just straight up better for all this. Setting sun maneuvers let you use str or dex for their rolls, and if you use dex, you get a bonus for being smaller, which is always a benefit.

[TheCrowing1432]

Outside of Improved Natural Attack are there anyways to increase damage die?

[MilesTiden]

Superior Unarmed Strike and Monk's Belt.

[SinsI]

Outside of Improved Natural Attack are there anyways to increase damage die?
get yourself a custom item of Greater Mighty Wallop.

[atemu1234]

Yeah, just go straight swordsage, it's just straight up better for all this. Setting sun maneuvers let you use str or dex for their rolls, and if you use dex, you get a bonus for being smaller, which is always a benefit.

One of my old favorite archetypes with one of my favorite classes. This would be fun to play, go for it.

[prufock]

I think Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk are mandatory feats here. A ring of reduction helps as well.

You could always go Stoneblessed for 2 levels and grab Titan Fighting, or if you want to commit the levels to it, go Stoneblessed 3 and Blade Bravo 5. You will end up with IL 16 (20 if you read the "prestige classes count as full IL" bit to mean ALL prestige classes rather than just those in ToB; I personally don't support that reading, but it is RAW). You will be pretty hard to hit and have some nice bonuses against things bigger than you.

[Darrin]

Try:

Battle Dancer 1/SLT-WF Barbarian 1/Fighter 4
Feats:
Power Attack (1st)
Superior Unarmed Strike (3rd)
Weapon Focus (FB1)
Improved Bull Rush (FB2)
Snap Kick (6th)
Weapon Specialization (FB4)
(If Strongheartis available, take Travel Devotion or Strength Devotion as your bonus feat.)

That build should be able to tear apart a Monk 6 with his bare hands (and give the Swordsage a run for his money).

You could also try "Hulking Out": take Stoneblessed 3 so you qualify as a Goliath, then Goliath Barbarian 1 with the Mountain Rage substitution level. When you get angry, you grow to large size.

[Curmudgeon]

get yourself a custom item of Greater Mighty Wallop.
Why do you want to risk your DM's ire by insisting on such a contentious thing? Just get your friendly party Sorcerer/Wizard to cast the spell on you once a day, and buy a level 3 Pearl of Power so they can recover the spell.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Darrin
Battle Dancer 1/SLT-WF Barbarian 1/Fighter 4

Can you remind us (or just me) where Battle Dancer can be found?

[Sian]

Dragon Compendium

Monk (Hin Disciple) 1, gaining Underfoot Combat as a Bonus feat, from Champions of Valor Web Enhancement might be worth a thought

[Zaq]

Why do you want to risk your DM's ire by insisting on such a contentious thing? Just get your friendly party Sorcerer/Wizard to cast the spell on you once a day, and buy a level 3 Pearl of Power so they can recover the spell.

Build suggestions and item suggestions are usually intended to be party-agnostic. If you have a friendly arcane caster who's willing to learn a specific spell for you, that's great, and you should take them up on it! But you might not have that luxury. This might be a theoretical character who doesn't have a party in mind. This might be a character in a party that doesn't have a full arcane caster. This might be a character in a party where the Sorcerer isn't willing to burn a precious spell known on making the Monk-analogue more Monk-y.

Absolutely, if you have a friendly arcane caster, utilizing their resources is going to be a winning deal. No argument. But we're giving advice for a single character, not a single character with a specific party in tow. So we give self-sufficient, party-agnostic advice.

[SinsI]

Why do you want to risk your DM's ire by insisting on such a contentious thing? Just get your friendly party Sorcerer/Wizard to cast the spell on you once a day, and buy a level 3 Pearl of Power so they can recover the spell.

Pearl of Power 3 is 9000 gp, lasts hour/level and it'd automatically scale with caster's level at no additional cost.
Continuous item is at least 3*7*2000 = 42k gp (although you'd probably want to start with 48k version) and you have to pay 3*4*2000=24k more for each additional step.
I think this is one of those cases where DM is more likely to allow the custom item.

Although you can just make it a 1 charge per day: 3*20*1800/5 = 21600 gp to last 20 hours.

[Curmudgeon]

Continuous item is at least 3*7*2000 = 42k gp (although you'd probably want to start with 48k version) and you have to pay 3*4*2000=24k more for each additional step.
I think this is one of those cases where DM is more likely to allow the custom item.
1. Pricing for all custom items is at the whim of the individual DM.
2. As a DM, I never allow "marketplace" custom items; the character must create them using the appropriate item crafting feats.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Darrin
Battle Dancer 1/SLT-WF Barbarian 1/Fighter 4

1. Is the level of Battle Dancer there mainly for the +1 BAB? I'm not at all familiar with the class, and it doesn't seem to have much else at first level.

2. How effective would this build be without the SLT-WF part? Could the barbarian level be traded for the Hin Disciple as Sian suggested?

3. Are there any fighter variants that could be added in here?

[dextercorvia]

1. Is the level of Battle Dancer there mainly for the +1 BAB? I'm not at all familiar with the class, and it doesn't seem to have much else at first level.

It also gets Cha to AC and Monklike unarmed striking.

[TheCrowing1432]

I think Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk are mandatory feats here. A ring of reduction helps as well.

You could always go Stoneblessed for 2 levels and grab Titan Fighting, or if you want to commit the levels to it, go Stoneblessed 3 and Blade Bravo 5. You will end up with IL 16 (20 if you read the "prestige classes count as full IL" bit to mean ALL prestige classes rather than just those in ToB; I personally don't support that reading, but it is RAW). You will be pretty hard to hit and have some nice bonuses against things bigger than you.

I dont like those two feats as they specify a creature TWO sizes larger then yourself, not one, which is what we mostly fight with. We might mostly medium creatures.


Try:

Battle Dancer 1/SLT-WF Barbarian 1/Fighter 4
Feats:
Power Attack (1st)
Superior Unarmed Strike (3rd)
Weapon Focus (FB1)
Improved Bull Rush (FB2)
Snap Kick (6th)
Weapon Specialization (FB4)
(If Strongheartis available, take Travel Devotion or Strength Devotion as your bonus feat.)

That build should be able to tear apart a Monk 6 with his bare hands (and give the Swordsage a run for his money).

You could also try "Hulking Out": take Stoneblessed 3 so you qualify as a Goliath, then Goliath Barbarian 1 with the Mountain Rage substitution level. When you get angry, you grow to large size.

SLT-WF? Whats that?




Pearl of Power 3 is 9000 gp, lasts hour/level and it'd automatically scale with caster's level at no additional cost.
Continuous item is at least 3*7*2000 = 42k gp (although you'd probably want to start with 48k version) and you have to pay 3*4*2000=24k more for each additional step.
I think this is one of those cases where DM is more likely to allow the custom item.

Although you can just make it a 1 charge per day: 3*20*1800/5 = 21600 gp to last 20 hours.

The level we are doing is 9, so I cant quite affored that


1. Is the level of Battle Dancer there mainly for the +1 BAB? I'm not at all familiar with the class, and it doesn't seem to have much else at first level.

2. How effective would this build be without the SLT-WF part? Could the barbarian level be traded for the Hin Disciple as Sian suggested?

3. Are there any fighter variants that could be added in here?


It also gets Cha to AC and Monklike unarmed striking.

But does it stack with unarmed strikes from monks?

[Curmudgeon]

But does it stack with unarmed strikes from monks?
Nope. It's the same source (same named class ability AC Bonus) so two instances don't stack together. You'd instead get whichever bonus was greater.

[dextercorvia]

SLT-WF? Whats that?

Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion) Barbarian with the Whirling Frenzy variant (Unearthed Arcana and SRD).

[TheCrowing1432]

Heres what I have so far.


Strongheart Halfling

Unarmed Swordsage 7/Fighter 2

Str:10 (12 - 2)
Dex: 19 (17 +2)
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 13

1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3: ???
6: Superior Unarmed Strike
9: ???
Fighter Bonus Feats: ???

[Seharvepernfan]

Heres what I have so far.


Strongheart Halfling

Unarmed Swordsage 7/Fighter 2

Str:10 (12 - 2)
Dex: 19 (17 +2)
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 13

1: Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
3: ???
6: Superior Unarmed Strike
9: ???
Fighter Bonus Feats: ???

I'd switch your strength and charisma scores; that 13 charisma isnt doing you any good, may as well make it a 12. 11 strength will let you carry a bit more stuff.

You shouldn't have 3 feats at first level, unless you're taking flaws. You don't need those levels of fighter. Unarmed swordsage doesn't need to take Improved Unarmed Strike, they get a better version for free, though superior unarmed strike does help.

1 - Combat Expertise (such a waste, you'll likely never use this feat), Improved Trip (though you took it to get this, which I think you will be using a lot)
3 - Weapon Finesse
6 - Superior Unarmed Strike
9 - Shadow Blade? (worth it if you're going to be using shadow hand stances some of the time)

[Sian]

actually he does have 3 feat at level 1

Improved Unarmed Strike is a bonus feat from unarmed Swordsage, while Strongheart Halfling gains a bonus feat at level one

[Seharvepernfan]

actually he does have 3 feat at level 1

Improved Unarmed Strike is a bonus feat from unarmed Swordsage, while Strongheart Halfling gains a bonus feat at level one

My bad. I thought they got the same unarmed thing monks get.

[Troacctid]

My bad. I thought they got the same unarmed thing monks get.

They do. Monks get Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat as part of their Unarmed Strike class ability.

[Sian]

thats the additional usual RAI reading of a very lackluster suggestion that never establishes anything but the scant idea ... but Monks actually get Improved Unarmed Strike as a first level bonus feat as well (although its listed deep in the crunch and not easily spotted in the table), so in this case its the same no matter how Unarmed Swordsage works

[Urpriest]

I dont like those two feats as they specify a creature TWO sizes larger then yourself, not one, which is what we mostly fight with. We might mostly medium creatures.


Yes, and if you take those feats (and some of the other smaller-is-better feats, though those are the top ones) then you'll be spending as much of your time as possible Tiny. Now if you were fighting mostly Small creatures, that would indeed be a problem.

There are also some decent substitution levels for Halflings in Races of the Wild. Whether you can stack them with Hin Fist depends on how you interpret how substitution levels work.

[TheCrowing1432]

I'd switch your strength and charisma scores; that 13 charisma isnt doing you any good, may as well make it a 12. 11 strength will let you carry a bit more stuff.

You shouldn't have 3 feats at first level, unless you're taking flaws. You don't need those levels of fighter. Unarmed swordsage doesn't need to take Improved Unarmed Strike, they get a better version for free, though superior unarmed strike does help.

1 - Combat Expertise (such a waste, you'll likely never use this feat), Improved Trip (though you took it to get this, which I think you will be using a lot)
3 - Weapon Finesse
6 - Superior Unarmed Strike
9 - Shadow Blade? (worth it if you're going to be using shadow hand stances some of the time)

Unarmed Swordsage gets Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at first level just as a monk does, although I suppose you could count it as a class feature? I decided to include it in the feats.

Combat Expertise I needed to get in order to get Improved trip, which stacks nicely with the Setting Sun Maneuvers.

What about Snap Kick, or Improved Natural Attack?

[prufock]

I dont like those two feats as they specify a creature TWO sizes larger then yourself, not one, which is what we mostly fight with. We might mostly medium creatures.
This is why I suggested the ring of reduction. You use that, it makes you tiny, now medium creatures are 2 sizes larger than you.

[TheCrowing1432]

This is why I suggested the ring of reduction. You use that, it makes you tiny, now medium creatures are 2 sizes larger than you.

Hmm, how long does ring of reduction last?

[prufock]

Hmm, how long does ring of reduction last?
Until you command it to return you to regular size or take it off. No daily limit, 20K gp. Lords of Madness page 130.
There is also the cheaper Ring of Shrinking in Savage Species (p 54), 3.6K gp, 1/day and 9 minute duration.

[j_spencer93]

Dragon Compendium

Monk (Hin Disciple) 1, gaining Underfoot Combat as a Bonus feat, from Champions of Valor Web Enhancement might be worth a thought

where is hin disciple?

[TheCrowing1432]

where is hin disciple?

In the Champions of Valor Web Enhancement.

Or you can look here under Halflings

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1151316

[j_spencer93]

In the Champions of Valor Web Enhancement.

Or you can look here under Halflings

http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1151316

lmao i literally just looked through it and missed it. nvm, it was right in front of my face.