Person_Man’s 5E Rogue Guide [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Person_Man

2015-01-30, 11:58 AM

This guide is not an extensive review of every facet of the 5E Rogue. That's already been done in two separate handbooks, here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4147321) and here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4149876). This is a short guide that offers practical advice about why how to play a Rogue based on my experiences.

Rogue Pros:

In my opinion, the Rogue is the most fun and versatile non-full caster class in the game.
Rogues deal solid damage against single targets, and can do so mostly at-will.
Rogues are very mobile, and are very difficult to lock-down.
When played intelligently, Rogues are extremely hard to kill.
Rogues get more Tool/Skill Proficiencies then any other classes, plus abilities that improve them. This gives you a wide variety of options of things to be good at.
Rogues have the best ability score dependencies. They require high Dexterity and good Constitution, and those are the most used and most valuable ability scores in the game.
There is virtually no resource management or book keeping. Almost all of the Rogue’s abilities are at-will.

Rogue Cons:

Rogues have few options for damaging multiple enemies effectively.
Between levels 8-16, the Rogue gets very few "big" signature abilities. You get solid, steady damage progression and other marginal benefits that are generally available to other classes, but nothing amazing.
Sneak Attack is limited to once per turn, and can only be used with Finesse and Ranged weapons. You can't use it with heavy weapons or cantrips/spells or natural weapons or Monk Martial Arts (without a DM hand wave). This limits the effectiveness of most multi-class combinations.
The Shadow Monk is better at Stealth/infiltration/mobility, a Bear Totem Barbarian is harder to kill, a Bard has many more options, and a variety of other classes are arguably better at dealing damage (depending on the parameters). The Rogue is good at several important roles, but usually isn’t the best at anything.

Things to ask your DM about before decide to play a Rogue:

Will you regularly be using a tabletop map/grid, or if all/most combats will occur in the theater of the mind (which is the default for 5E)? If you’ll regularly be using a tabletop map/grid, then your movement speed and Dash become a lot more important.
How will Stealth will be handled? There are a variety of issues and ways to handle Stealth (like the Lightfoot Halfling ability) which can have a major impact on the game. If your DM strictly limits Stealth and/or other Skills, then don’t bother playing a Rogue.
Will you be paying attention to illumination? If so, then I strongly recommend that you start the game with Darkvision, which will typically come from your racial choice or multi-classing. If you carry a torch or other light source you’re giving away your position when you attempt to hide in the dark.
How will Poison be handled? Poison can be a very useful for any character that depends on weapon damage. Some poisons deal strait damage which have the Poison type (just like Piercing or Fire are damage types), and some poisons impose the Poisoned status condition (Disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks) or some other status condition. You can apply poison to one weapon or three pieces of ammunition, and it remains useful for 1 minute. Some DMs rule that it remains useful throughout the entire minute, and others rule that it is “wiped off” after a successful hit. In addition, some DMs rule that the damage caused by some poisons is multiplied on a critical hit, while others rule that because it’s a secondary effect triggered by a failed Saving Throw it is not multiplied on a critical hit (which is also what the designers have said). If your DM is liberal about poison, it can be very useful for a Thief Rogue (who can apply it as a Bonus Action using their Fast Hands ability) or Assassin Rogue (who get Poison Kit Proficiency and can auto-critical). If your DM limits the usefulness of poison, then its probably not worth spending money on it.

General Tactics

Start the game with your Dexterity high as possible. The vast majority of your rolls will be modified by Dexterity (to-hit, Initiative, the most common Saving Throw, Stealth, Acrobatics, and occasionally other stuff), and enemies will be targeting your Armor Class (AC) regularly. No other ability score, racial ability, class ability, Feat, etc. is as important to determining your success.
You should generally be using Stealth to hide whenever it’s feasible to do so. When exploring, set up a rally point with your allies, and scout ahead using stealth until you find enemies (carefully checking for traps and hidden stuff as you go). Then you can either report back to your allies ad come up with a plan while your enemies remain unaware, or ambush them and use “kiting” or other tactics to lead them back to your rally point, where your allies have set up a second ambush point.
“Kiting” is the tactic of keeping enemies at a certain distance, usually out of melee distance but within ranged attack, and luring the pursuer toward your direction while dealing damage at the same time. (Like flying a kite). Rogues excel at this tactic, since their Cunning Action ability lets them Dash as a Bonus Action. This allows them to use their Action to attack or whatever while still moving at twice their speed. If you can outrun enemies and get out of sight and Hide again if necessary, or Disengage if you accidentally get caught adjacent to an enemy. Its best used against enemies with no ranged attacks (like most beasts and monstrosities), but should not be used against enemies with spells, ranged attacks, superior speed, etc. Also, don’t use this tactic too often, because it feels very video gamey and tends to piss off DMs, who can easily prevent you from using it effectively by mixing up the enemies or environment.
Especially at low levels, take the time to read through the equipment section of the Player’s Handbook, and when reasonably possible make use caltrops, ball bearings, hunting traps, and any traps you find that can be re-purposed. You can just drop things behind you as you explore and then lead enemies back over them when kiting them back to your rally point, and then re-collect them when you’re done. Its particularly awesome if you can bypass or avoid a trap without disarming it, and then force an enemy to run over it.
Be sure to coordinate with allies on tactics. In particular, its important to recognize that Sneak Attack can be used once per turn, not once per round. So if you can get an Opportunity Attack against an enemy that qualifies for Sneak Attack, you basically double your damage output. There are a variety of spells that force an enemy to use their movement, Action, or Reaction to move away from you, like Command or Dissonant Whispers. And there are a large number of ways for an ally to help you get Advantage on your attacks against an enemy. I’ve found that the easiest method is to have an ally use the Shove maneuver to knock an enemy prone.
Outside of combat, when possible you or allies should be using the Help Action whenever possible to gain Advantage on any Skill checks that come up. In particular, a Rogue really benefits from partying with a Shadow Monk, Druid, or Ranger with high Perception (Wisdom based) and Stealth (Pass Without Trace spell) so that you can scout ahead to find traps and enemies together while remaining hidden.
Here’s handy list every Rogue should look at:

Attack a target while you are hidden.
Attack a prone target within 5 feet.
Have an ally use a Help action against your target within 5 feet. (Typically a Familiar, Conjured creature, or trained animal. Your allies probably won’t want to spend their Action to do this in combat).
Expend Inspiration on your attack.
Attack a creature that is squeezing through a smaller space (PHB pg 192)
Attack while you are invisible or otherwise unseen (not required to be hidden).
Attack a target affected by Faerie Fire.
Attack while affected by Forsight (9th level spell).
Attack a target affected by Guiding Bolt (1st level).
Attack a target affected by Otto's Irrisistable Dance (6th level).
Attack a target that is Paralyzed.
Attack a target that is Petrified.
Attack a target that is Restrained. This includes targets hit with a net or the Web spell.
Attack a target that is Stunned.
Attack a target that is Blinded.
Attack a target that is unconscious.
Attack a target after casting True Strike.
Attack a target a Battle Master Fighter hit with the Distracting Strike maneuver.
Attack the target after using Feinting Attack on it (if you yourself have at least 3 Battlemaster Fighter or the Martial Adept Feat).
Attack in full darkness while you have Darkvision and your target does not.
Attack first during a surprise round if you have the Assassin subclass.
Attack while your Mage Hand distracts the Target using Versitle Trickster (13th level Arcane Trickster).
Attack with Reckless Attack if you have 2 levels of Barbarian.

Person_Man

2015-01-30, 11:59 AM

Guide to Building a Rogue

Race: It matters a lot whether you are starting your game at 1st level or 4th level or higher. As described above, you want to start the game with Dexterity as close to 20 as possible and Darkvision (assuming your DM pays attention to illumination). So if you’re starting at 1st level, your optimal racial choice is probably Elf, with Wood Elf being my preferred choice thanks to its higher movement rate and Mask of the Wild ability. If you’re starting at 4th level or higher, a good argument could be made for a variety of other races, depending on your exact build. Halfling or variant (Feat) Human would generally be my suggested options.

Skill Proficiencies: You start with Thieves’ Tools, four Skills from being a Rogue, two Skills from your Background, probably another tool or two from your Background, and maybe one or two more from your race. The Skills I’ve most commonly used are Stealth, Perception, Investigation, Insight, Acrobatics, and Sleight of Hand, generally in that order. On everything else, coordinate with your party. Other then Stealth and Perception, there’s not much of a benefit to having multiple players with overlapping Skills that are not used in combat. For this reason, Rogues tend to shine more when they’re in small parties (because they have a lot of Skills) and tend to be redundant in larger parties (because all of the Skills are already covered by someone else).

Class Abilities

I rate things compared to other options offered by other races/classes/feats/etc, not how it compares to other Rogue abilities. For example, Sneak Attack is really useful, seems like a ton of damage, and its comparatively more useful then most other Rogue abilities. But once you crunch the numbers, you'll realize that your at-will damage output is basically on par with the at-will damage output of most other classes, and it has some significant limitations.

Red = Worse then similar options.
Purple = Potentially very useful, but only for specific builds or niche situations.
Black = Generally on par with similar options.
Blue = Awesome compared to similar options.
Expertise: Doubles the bonus from a number of Proficiencies. I suggest Stealth and Perception for every Rogue. Take Investigation and Thieves’ Tools if you want to be the trap finder/disarmer for your party. Take Acrobatics if you’re worried about combat maneuvers (Grapple, Shove). Take Sleight of Hand if you’re going to be an Arcane Trickster. Bonuses in 5E are rare, and this is very useful one.

Sneak Attack: Bonus damage that is triggered if you have Advantage, or if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have Disadvantage on the attack roll. Note that you don’t have to be standing anywhere near your target. They just need to be near an enemy (probably one of your allies) and you can’t have Disadvantage on the attack. You do not need to “flank” a target like you did in previous editions, and I’ve decided to stop using that word when discussing Rogues so as to avoid confusion. Note that Sneak Attack can only be used once per turn (not per round). This means you can trigger it once during your turn on your first successful attack, and once during another creature’s turn with your Reaction (usually with a successful Opportunity Attack). When you score a critical hit, you roll all of the attack’s damage dice twice and add them together. This includes the bonus damage dice from Sneak Attack, and so Rogues tend to deal massive critical hit damage. Its also noteworthy that Sneak Attack is limited to finesse or ranged weapon, which prevents many multi-class combinations from being worthwhile (see below).

Thieves’ Cant: Fluff.

Cunning Action: You can Hide, Disengage, or Dash as a Bonus Action. Although it may not seem like it on the surface, this is arguably the Rogue’s most powerful class ability, and you will be using it constantly. The Rogues most potent defense is avoiding attacks by moving out of range or hiding. A Rogue that wants to stay alive generally uses this ability as often as possible to try and to stay away from counter attacks.

Uncanny Dodge: You can use your Reaction to halve the damage of an attack against you. Stacks with Resistance if you can get it from another source (like Rage, or an ally’s spell). A very potent defense, though using it prevents you from using your Reaction for an Opportunity Attack or something else.

Evasion: Basically Improved Evasion from 3.5. Noteworthy that this does not require any kind of Action/Reaction/Bonus Action to use and doesn’t have a duration or limited use, unlike most other similar abilities.

Reliable Talent: Prevents poor rolls on Skills you are Proficient with. While handy, this ability is unlikely to make a difference on the outcomes of important Skill checks. By the time you get this ability, your Proficiency/Expertise bonus is going to be relatively high for the Skills you use the most, you’ll probably have a Luck Feat or racial ability, your allies will probably have ways of improving Skill checks, and outside of combat your party will be using the Help Action to gain Advantage on many checks. Having said that, it does make the Skills that you have Proficiency with but not Expertise with much more reliable, making it a solid option for a Rogue that’s playing a solo game or part of a small party.

Blindsense: By the time you get this ability, the spellcasters in your party will have access to superior options, the range is too limited to prevent ambushes, and most combats won’t involve hidden or invisible enemies.

Slippery Mind: Although it is very important to have a decent mental defense at high levels, you’ve got plenty of Feats by the time you get this, and this ability is worse than the Resilient Feat.

Elusive: Attack rolls never have Advantage against you. Nifty, because at high levels enemies are going to have high to-hit rolls and frequent Advantage. But this ability is not nearly as powerful as the Foresight spell (which imposes strait out Disadvantage on enemy attack rolls while also granting you Advantage on most rolls for 8 hours without the need for Concentration) or many other high level options available to other classes.

Stroke of Luck: Once per Short or Long Rest you basically auto-succeed on one roll of your choice. Again, this is a nifty a ability, but it’s just not particularly amazing due to its very limited use, and its not nearly as useful as other capstone abilities.

Sub-class Abilities

Arcane Trickster: Do not play an Arcane Trickster if you want Skills + spells. If that’s the type of thing you want to focus on, you’ll be much better off playing as a Bard, which also gets Expertise, other ways to buff Skills, much better spell selection, much better spell progression, and his spells are Cha (not Int) dependent, allowing the Bard to be more effective at social/trickster interactions. Play an Arcane Trickster if you’re playing an urban campaign and want to use Mage Hand Legerdemain frequently.
Spellcasting: Intelligence based one-third spellcasting progression, maxing out at 4th level spells, with a very limited number of spells known from the Wizard spell list, limited mostly to Enchantment and Illusion spells. This can give you some interesting options. But as noted above, your spell selection and progression is terrible compared to other classes, so your spells are really just a side benefit of the subclass, not the reason to play it. Its also worth mentioning that a Rogue is unlikely to have a high enough Intelligence to make the Saving Throws from your spells meaningful. But if you roll for ability scores and get lucky, its worth considering, and you should also take Expertise in Investigate (which is also Int based) for trapfinding. You can check out this link (http://community.wizards.com/comment/51250626) for a handy compilation of spell lists.

Mage Hand Legerdemain: Invisible Mage Hand with extra functions, allowing you to pick pockets or to use Thieves’ Tools at a range. This is potentially a very flexible and interesting ability, allowing you to plant contact poison on your enemy’s weapon pommel before combat, steal an important item, trigger or disarm a trap without having to stand nearby, etc. But you should note that Mage Hand is still an Action to cast and has a Verbal and Somatic component, potentially revealing your position if you're hiding and attempt to cast it if your DM pays attention to such things. Be sure to talk to your DM about how they’re going to handle this issue before you choose to play an Arcane Trickster, and if they’re going to be restrictive, I’d choose a different subclass.

Magical Ambush: Makes your spells that require a Saving Throw more likely to succeed. In theory this is a great ability, but the effects you’re imposing on your enemy will generally be weaker then the options your allies are casting out their higher level spell slots. And your very limited number of spells per day means that you’ll rarely have the chance to actually use this ability, and its also less likely that you’ll have the Intelligence needed to make your Save DC high. The important exception to this is if your DM allows you to get a magic wand/staff/etc that lets you cast something potent more regularly, in which case this ability can be very powerful.

Versatile Trickster: In theory this ability gives your Advantage on attack rolls against one creature near your Mage Hand as a Bonus Action. In practice, there are a bunch of issues that make its use difficult, since you need to cast Mage Hand (an Action), move it near your enemy (a separate Bonus Action), Mage Hand has a limited range, casting Mage Hand could reveal your position if you’re trying to remain hidden, etc. If your DM is willing to ignore these things or you can figure out a work around, then it could be a wildly useful ability for an archery focused Rogue.

Spell Thief: Once per Long Rest you can prevent and later recast a spell. The various limitations on this ability make it quite weak for a high level class ability.

Assassin: This is probably the most popular Rogue subclass, due to the effectiveness of the 3rd level Assassinate ability. But the mid-level abilities are basically just roleplaying benefits, so you may wish to consider other options if you’re not going to multi-class.
Bonus Tool Proficiencies: Poisoner's and Disguise Kit. The crafting rules suck. And if you want to use disguise and social skills to infiltrate regularly (as opposed using Stealth) you’d be better off as a Charisma based Bard.

Assassinate: Advantage against creatures who haven’t acted (ie, if you win Initiative) and auto-critical hits against surprised enemies. One of the few ways to dramatically increase your damage output in 5E (with the other options being Action Surge, Metamagic, and Smite+Smite Spell).

Infiltration Expertise: You can establish alter egos. Its very situational, and to me it seems like something any class should be able to do through roleplaying.

Imposter: You can study someone for 3 hours to mimic them. Any benefits you might get from this could usually just be handled by using a disguise and the Deception Skill.

Death Strike: A Surprised enemy must make a Save or your damage is doubled. The only problem with this ability is that by the time you get it, most boss enemies will usually have Legendary abilities that allow them to ignore a failed Save, and you probably won’t need the extra damage (which already benefits from Assassinate) to kill a non-Legendary enemy.

Thief: This subclass has the most best capstone ability, but is otherwise arguably the least powerful subclass. But it is worth considering for certain builds.
Fast Hands: You can use Sleight of Hand, Thieves' Tools, and Use an Object as Bonus Actions. The Dungeon Master’s Guide specifically states that Use an Object does not cover the use of magic items. But it does cover the use of potions, caltrops, applying poison, hunter’s trap, oil, holy water, ball bearings, healer’s kit, etc. If the DM gives you enough treasure that you can stock up on these things and use them often, Fast Hands goes a long way to giving you Batman’s utility belt. You can also take the Healer Feat to revive or heal fallen allies as a Bonus Action, which is a huge deal. The problem with Fast Hands is that, with the notable exceptions of potions and poisons, most non-magical equipment doesn’t scale at all, access to potions relies on DM fiat, and high level poisons are very expensive. So this is a great low level ability that will probably become a lot less useful at high levels unless your DM is running a Monty Haul campaign.

Second Story Work: You can climb and jump more easily. Meh.

Supreme Sneak: Advantage on Stealth when you move slowly. By the time you get this ability it probably won’t be important to the success of your Stealth checks, and there are a variety of low level spells which provide similar or superior benefits.

Use Magic Device: In most cases if you get a magic item you can’t use, it will just go to an ally that is capable of using it. Oh, and magic items themselves are an entirely optional part of the game. And even if you are using magic items, you're gettin just 1-3ish of them throughout your entire career. So overall, this class ability will probably be useless.

Thief's Reflexes: You can take two turns during the first round of any combat. That’s two Actions, two Bonus Actions, and two movements. One of the best high level abilities in the game.

Feats

Rogues absolutely need 20 Dex and want high Con. But once that’s accomplished, they generally don’t gain very much by investing in other ability scores, and should pick Feats if your DM allows them. If your DM doesn’t allow them, I recommend 20 Con and 20 Wis.

When considering your Feat choices, remember that a Rogue’s Bonus Action and Reaction will often be spoken for by their class abilities, so don’t load up on Feats that also use them.
Alert: Large Initiative bonus, you can’t be surprised, and other hidden enemies (which your DM WILL be using against you, since you constantly use this tactic, and DMs love irony) don't have Advantage against you. Acting before your enemies is extremely important, particularly if you are an Assassin.

Crossbow Expert: This Feat allows you to make a ranged attack as a Bonus Action, which is the best way to optimize your ranged damage if you’re using the Sharpshooter Feat. The RAW technically allows you to use a single hand crossbow to make all of your attacks, freeing up your other hand to use a melee weapon (to make Opportunity Attacks), use objects/items, cast spells, and/or use a shield (if you get Proficiency from multi-classing).

Healer: As mentioned above, this can be combined with the Thief’s Fast Hands ability to revive or heal as a Bonus Action. Worth considering if you don’t have a dedicated healer in the party, or if your DM just fond of brutal combats.

Lucky: Re-roll pretty much anything three times per Long Rest. If you’re smart enough to save it for when you really need it (particularly a failed Save that might knock you out or control you), this is probably one of the best Feats in the game.

Mage Slayer: Spellcasters are generally common and powerful starting at mid levels.

Magic Initiate: Get two cantrips and one 1st level spell from one spellcasting class. Potentially useful selections include Minor Illusion, Guidance, and Find Familiar.

Mobile: Increases your speed, improves Dash, and allows you to avoid an Opportunity Attack from a creature you attack. This overlaps somewhat with Cunning Action. But if your DM frequently uses a tabletop map/grid for combat and you are constantly swarmed by enemies, movement speed and positioning can become a lot more important, and this Feat can free up your Bonus Action for other purposes.

Mounted Combat: If you’re playing in a party with a Moon Druid that’s willing to be your mount, consider taking this Feat. You’ll get Advantage on attacks against many enemies and will grant Evasion to your Druid/mount. The down side is that, since it takes half your movement to mount or dismount, you will rarely use Cunning Action, one of your most powerful abilities. So this is generally a good option for a Thief Rogue or mid-level Arcane Trickster, who have other useful options for their Bonus Action.

Observant: Increases your Int or Wis, provides a large bonus to your Passive Investigation and Perception, and you can read lips.

Ritual Caster: You learn the Rituals of one class. If you don’t have a Wizard in the party but your DM is nice enough to let you find Wizard spells as treasure, this is worth taking for access to a very wide variety of useful options. Check out the Ritual Guide (http://community.wizards.com/forum/player-help/threads/4149206).

Sentinel: If you’re going to focus on melee and stick near the front line of combat, then this Feat is probably one of the best ways to get extra attacks as a Reaction. On the flip side, most Rogues will be ping-ponging in and out of the front line and being hidden using Cunning Action, rather then putting themselves at risk on the front line and trying to lock-down an enemy’s movement. So don’t take this Feat unless you’re sure that it will regularly be used.

Sharpshooter: Makes your ranged attacks much more effective in several ways. Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter is generally the optimal way to maximize your damage as a Rogue.

Skulker: The usefulness of this Feat depends mostly on how closely your DM pays attention to the different types of illumination and obscured. If your DM pays close attention to these things, then this is a solid third choice Feat for a ranged Rogue behind Crossbow Expert and Shartpshooter, though probably not as universally useful as Lucky or Alert. If not, I'd skip it. It also somewhat overlaps with the Wild Elf Masks of the Wild ability and the Halfling ability to hide behind allies.

Multiclassing

Whether or not you want to multiclass depends very heavily on what class level your game is likely to start and end at. Rogue 1 through 7 is filled with awesome class abilities. Beyond that though, I would strongly consider multiclassing unless you know the game is going to go to level 17 or higher. Just be mindful of your Feats, which are often just as important as class abilities.

Also, be aware that every class has a minimum ability score requirement to multi-class into it, which makes some choices problematic unless you rolled to determine ability scores and got lucky.
Barbarian 1: If you happen to have 13 Str (required for multi-class into Barbarian), 20 Dex, and Con 20, its very tempting to take 1 level of this class if you want to increase your AC to 22 via Unarmored Defense + Shield Proficiency, plus the occasional Rage for the Resistances when you need it. I would not suggest taking additional levels or attempting to be a Strength focused Rogue, since it will typically deal less damage then a Rogue using Sharpshooter.

Druid 2+: Natural Attacks that are modified by Dexterity do not explicitly count as Finesse weapons, and thus do not count for Sneak Attack. So RAW, this combination is terrible. But if your DM is willing to give you a house rule that allows you to Sneak Attack while in Wildshape, this combination is wildly awesome. Even if you only take two levels of Druid, the utility of being able to Wildshape into a rat or other inconspicuous animal dramatically improves your infiltration and scouting abilities. Even if you fail your Stealth check, your enemies just see a rat. If you Wildshape into something with Pack Tactics, you basically get Advantage every round if an ally rides you as a Mount. If you take the Sentinel Feat and one of your allies has the Mounted Combat. Plus the Druid's spell list complements the Rogue's abilities in a variety of ways.

Fighter 1-11: Shield Proficiency, Fighting Style, Action Surge, a variety of potentially useful subclass abilities, Extra Attack, and a second Extra Attack. Various Rogue/Fighter combinations work great and (unlike many other multi-class builds) do not miss out on any Feats, which can be crucial at mid-levels.

Monk: RAW unarmed strike is not a finesse weapon. If your DM is willing to give you a house rule, it might be worth considering. But Monk desperately wants more Ki points to be useful, it potentially introduces MAD into your build, and the Monk’s class abilities are generally duplicative with the Rogues.

Ranger 1-5: An extra Skill Proficiency, Shield Proficiency, Fighting Style, Hoardbreaker (extra attack if within 5 feet) or Colossus Slayer (extra damage against wounded) from the Hunter subclass, Extra Attack, and a few handy spells (like Hunter’s Mark and Pass Without Trace).

Paladin: I’ve tried the math on combining Smite and Sneak Attack a bunch of different ways. But once you consider the effect of various Feat combinations, it doesn’t seem to be worth it, because Paladin just doesn’t get many spell slots (and thus can't Smite very often when multiclassing with Rogue), Smite is limited to melee, and Sneak Attack is limited to finesse or ranged.

Any Other Full Caster or Warlock: Sneak Attack does not apply to cantrips. But if your DM is willing to give you a house rule that Sneak Attack does apply to cantrips for any Rogue or an Arcane Trickster, then many potential combinations become viable.

odigity

2015-01-30, 12:18 PM

Sweet! Our first Person_Man guide for 5e.

Noted: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18739490&postcount=57

CrusaderJoe

2015-01-30, 01:09 PM

I really think they struck gold with the Rogue and how it can wrform additional cool things with a BA. I think the Fighter needs to be remodeled after the rogue as does a few other classes. The rogue was one of my inspirations for my Fighter Martial Archetype: Combatant.

You should also mention under races, especially if you will muliclass, how good Strength based rogues are. Especially low level rogues. A Mountain Dwarf rogue is a spitfire death machine that has AC an Con boost. Since you can use Str with finesse weapons you can still use thrown daggers with str to get sneak attack.

You can do this with other races but that +2 Con/+2 Str really goes a long way to allowing you to have better ability score all around.

Level 4: str (16), Dex (14), con (16), int (9), Wis (14), cha (8)

With medium armor AC 15 is good for low levels.

With this you could go Multiclassing into any class that doesn't need Int (wizard) or Cha (bard, paladin, warlock, and sorcerer). And still be effective.

DireSickFish

2015-01-30, 01:14 PM

CrusaderJoe

2015-01-30, 01:17 PM

Nice guide. I like how you didn't go overboard with blue things, keeping everything low key so the good abilities really stand out. I have not played a Rogue yet and it's nice to see how they can be used effectively. I don't think I would have known using magic items is not considered an action Thief's can take as a bonus action if I hand't read this.

Thanks Person_Man

There was a tweet at some point that said they were going to get rid of magic items being used as BA. I'll try to find it but as of right now...

Oh and don't forget to take the healer feat on a thief rogue. By tweet response that is perfectly legal to heal with a BA!

Edit: Thought I saw a period in your post. Makes for a different read... Haha.

DragonSinged

2015-01-30, 01:26 PM

I'm currently playing an Assassin, and have a note about infiltration expertise. My character frequently (more than once per session) uses disguises, and at earlier levels this means I have to make a disguise check every time. Infiltration expertise (while definitely not a great ability) basically gives you the option of spending 25 gold and 7 days of down time in exchange for not having to make those rolls any more. Worth it? IMHO only if it's a disguise you plan on using regularly and/or could have big consequences if you fail.

odigity

2015-01-30, 01:26 PM

Suggestions:

1) Under Arcane Trackster -> Spellcasting:

I would mention that one of your two schools (Enchantment) is also very save-heavy, and you're unlikely to bother with a high Int to make them land reliably. I would also note that if you're want to really commit to a high Int, then you should also probably prioritize the Int-based skills (Search and Investigation) to serve that role since you're likely to be best at it at that point.

2) Formatting

You list the archetypes and the abilities the archetypes give you with the same size font, which prevents them from standing out as section headers. I would make the archetype name a proper header on it's own line, with the commentary about the archetype as it's own paragraph below it before the ability lists start.

3) Secondary Abilities

Would be cool to have a section talking about the secondary abilities that can complement the Rogue and serve as a minor focus -- Int, Wis, and Cha. Pros and cons of emphasizing each alongside Dex. Especially how a Cha-focused Rogue compares to a Bard, and if it ever makes sense to play one.

4) Fighter/Rogue Feats

I would specifically mention that Fighter 8/Rogue 12 yields the same number of feats as Fighter 20 (7).

hymer

2015-01-30, 01:30 PM

Looking good! Thank you!
If I may venture an opinion or two: One particular reason to multiclass three levels of druid would be to get access to Pass without Trace. That's +10 to stealth checks, which either can be good for you directly, or can mean that you won't have to split the party to get surprise.
I'm also a little surprised by your comments about Death Strike. Without it, you'll deal something like 80-90 average damage with autocrit from Assassinate (sans poison). You don't need legendary opponents to get mileage out of doubling that at level 17. Plenty of critters with single-digit CR have over 90 hp.
I really liked how you stress what you need to bring up with the DM before playing. It's a major thing in this edition, and it's easy to assume and be disappointed.

Edit: Re. Reckless Attack in the list of ways to get advantage, it's worth noting that it only works for strength-melee.

Person_Man

2015-01-30, 01:33 PM

You should also mention under races, especially if you will muliclass, how good Strength based rogues are.

Can you elaborate on this perspective?

My current assumption is that Strength based Rogues are far less efficient then Dex based Rogues. My reasons:

High Str & Dex overlap for determining to-hit.
High Dex and medium or heavy armor proficiency overlap for determining AC.
Stealth, Initiative, and Dex Saves are very important and commonly rolled, and are determined by Dex.
Strength Saves and checks are very rare unless you're using Shove a lot, which the Rogue typically doesn't do.
You can't use heavy weapons with Sneak Attack, so your primary source of bonus damage beyond Sneak Attack is Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert, and ranged weapons use Dex.

So you might end up with a slightly better AC/hit points at low levels as a Strength based Dwarf Rogue wearing medium armor, instead of a Wood Elf Rogue wearing light armor. But beyond 1st level, you will want to use your ability score increases to get your to-hit modifying ability score up to 20 ASAP. If you invest in Dex then your investment in Strength becomes worthless. Whereas if you invest in Str, you miss out on bonuses to Stealth, Initiative, and Dex Save bonuses, without any additional benefit to offset that loss.

Am I missing something?

calebrus

2015-01-30, 01:37 PM

I would not suggest Rogue/Warlock or Rogue/Full Caster, since Sneak Attack does not apply to cantrips.
<snip>
I would not suggest Rogue/Monk, since by RAW unarmed strike is not a finesse weapon, Monk desperately wants more Ki points to be useful, and the Monk’s class abilities are generally duplicative with the Rogues. Pick one or the other, or better yet, just party with a Shadow Monk.

I'd have to disagree with both of these.
Being that this is a rogue guide, we're talking about primarily having rogue levels.

13 rogue with 7 caster (on an arcane trickster) gives 3rd & 4th level spells known/prepared from two different lists, with 6th level slots, and a couple of useful caster subclass abilities.
All he loses is 3d6 sneak attack and some of the less desirable rogue/subclass abilities. That's a small price to pay for a huge amount of versatility. And if you stick to mostly illusions and 'other schools' utility spells, you can even practically dump Int and use Cha or Wis for the other casting stat (meaning any caster works).

For rogue/monk, yes there is a little overlap, but there is also a ton of synergy (particularly if you get the DM handwave that you mentioned regarding using Dex for weapons that don't specifically have the "finesse" tag).

odigity

2015-01-30, 01:52 PM

Also, I think Shadow Monk 6 / Assassin Rogue 14 is particularly potent. I wouldn't do any other combinations of Monk and Rogue, though.

Phion

2015-01-30, 01:58 PM

CrusaderJoe

2015-01-30, 02:06 PM

Can you elaborate on this perspective?

My current assumption is that Strength based Rogues are far less efficient then Dex based Rogues. My reasons:

High Str & Dex overlap for determining to-hit.
High Dex and medium or heavy armor proficiency overlap for determining AC.
Stealth, Initiative, and Dex Saves are very important and commonly rolled, and are determined by Dex.
Strength Saves and checks are very rare unless you're using Shove a lot, which the Rogue typically doesn't do.
You can't use heavy weapons with Sneak Attack, so your primary source of bonus damage beyond Sneak Attack is Sharpshooter + Crossbow Expert, and ranged weapons use Dex.

So you might end up with a slightly better AC/hit points at low levels as a Strength based Dwarf Rogue wearing medium armor, instead of a Wood Elf Rogue wearing light armor. But beyond 1st level, you will want to use your ability score increases to get your to-hit modifying ability score up to 20 ASAP. If you invest in Dex then your investment in Strength becomes worthless. Whereas if you invest in Str, you miss out on bonuses to Stealth, Initiative, and Dex Save bonuses, without any additional benefit to offset that loss.

Am I missing something?

You are over valuing the need for high Scores. They are very nice but in no way mandatory like previous editions. I've seen players with 14 attack scores do well enough. Especially if you are gaining advantage somehow(hidden, help action, familiar w/help action, or whatever).

Not many of the Rogue's class abilities need a high Dex to work better (unlike slow fall and catch arrow), outside of the archetype features and skills. But we have proficiency in Dex saves and Expertise to help cover that.

The Rogue's abilities actually allow for a lower Dex. The biggest show of this is Evasion. With the drawf you can easily have a +2 Dex mod and you will have +Prof to Dex saves. At 7th level, you failing a Dex save is the same as someone else passing it. It replaces the need for Dex, especially when you will have more HP than the average rogue.

Initiative is good and all but if you are having issues you can take the feat "Alert" and problem solved. Or you can take Expertise in perception and with a +2 (easy to get) you will see most problems before they become problems.

Uncanny Dodge is a nice way to suppliment a lower AC. Which really anything around 15 isn't a low AC at starting to mid levels. But it doesn't rely on Dex.

Basically you get quite a few safety nets in order to allow you to not focus on Dex. As a friend once said "I'm not that kind of rogue" applies here quite well.

But the Strength based Rogue is mostly for when you Multiclassing into a strength based class. Though they work well enough when you don:'t.

The barbarian gains advantage on every attack but also bonuses to damage for rage (must be strength attack). You can totally rage sneak attack in this edition like you could in previous editions. Barbarian gives you danger sense at level 2 which means that Proficiency, +2 Dex Mod, Advantage, and Evasion are all combined... Do you need to worry about Dex saves even with a lower Dex? Not really. If you take Barbarian to 7 you gain advantage on initiative and a way to stop from being surprised without a feat, these together are better than a huge Dex modifier.

Fighter (may need to take this class first due to how proficiencies work): Go into heavy armor. You will be a skillful fighter who can sneak attack. You will also get more chances to land said sneak attack. Strength based let's you have that big ol' AC everyone loves. Then there are the martial archetypes that can help you out.

Paladin: Smite + Sneak Attack. It is easier to make a strength based rogue work than a Dex based paladin work when going sword n board style with heavy armor. Paladin of vengeance and rogue would mesh well together.

Person_Man

2015-01-30, 02:29 PM

You are over valuing the need for high Scores.

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

When I play a Rogue, I probably roll something modified by Dexterity or have my AC/Saves rolled against 20-80 times in a single game session. The difference between 20 (+5) and 16 (+3) is realistically makes a difference in maybe 10%ish of those rolls, allowing me to succeed or not be damaged 2-8ish more times per game session.

Now, if your gaming group spends most of its time roleplaying or exploring and thus makes fewer rolls related to To-Hit and/or Dexterity, then yeah, you can get by fine with 16 Str or Dex. But if that's the case, you an probably just ignore optimization all together. (And I'm very glad 5E supports that play style).

SharkForce

2015-01-30, 02:38 PM

as is the case with almost any class, a 2-3 level warlock dip can be an excellent investment. 120-foot darkvision that also works in magical darkness is a *very* nice ability for a rogue to have (plus you get another invocation of your choice... like free proficiency in some social skills, for example, or access to all level 1-2 rituals if you take level 3 and tome pact). hex means you can (partially?) replace your lost sneak attack damage and give people disadvantage on perception tests to spot you when hiding. you can use your other slot for mage armor, which is superior to any non-magical light armour. plus you get a few cantrips, if you take a third level you get access to level 2 warlock spells and can choose a pact (blade pact is particularly nice in any game that you expect to go to later levels but don't expect to find many magical weapons. heck, it's useful even with magic weapons; you can 100% guaranteed hide your weapon from searches and pull it out in an instant). obviously, there's a charisma investment required, but it's not like rogues *suffer* from having good charisma. depending on patron and/or pact, various useful abilities can be acquired.

warlock is basically the class that you can add to *almost* anything in small quantities, and get a good result. I would definitely not group it with the rest of the full casters in terms of benefits granted via multiclass.

also, could've swore there was a developer tweet somewhere that allowed monks to use their martial arts weapons with sneak attack.

finally, I would add that TWF rogue is at least as appealing as the ranged rogue, if only for superior opportunity to get opportunity attacks due to being on the front lines (though that's situational still; uncanny dodge means that you already have a good use for your reaction, opportunity attacks are just sometimes a *better* option :P and admittedly, you *can* use crossbow expert in melee range, though you'll need a weapon you can threaten opportunity attacks with as well)

Totema

2015-01-30, 02:49 PM

Also, I think Shadow Monk 6 / Assassin Rogue 14 is particularly potent. I wouldn't do any other combinations of Monk and Rogue, though. I disagree - I wouldn't take Assassin any further than 3 unless I really wanted that Death Strike ability. On the other hand, assassinating with martial arts dice is pretty sweet, and the Shadow capstone has great synergy with sneak attacks. I'd go for Assassin 3 / Shadow Monk 17. The only thing that I would sorely miss is the neat blindsense ability, which can probably be made up for with a magic item.

odigity

2015-01-30, 03:15 PM

I disagree - I wouldn't take Assassin any further than 3 unless I really wanted that Death Strike ability. On the other hand, assassinating with martial arts dice is pretty sweet, and the Shadow capstone has great synergy with sneak attacks. I'd go for Assassin 3 / Shadow Monk 17. The only thing that I would sorely miss is the neat blindsense ability, which can probably be made up for with a magic item.

I can see that, if you'd rather emphasis the Monk over the SA. (I love Monks, so makes sense to me.) Definitely would never do both Monk 7 and Rogue 7 at the same time, because redundant Evasion...

CrusaderJoe

2015-01-30, 04:36 PM

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

When I play a Rogue, I probably roll something modified by Dexterity or have my AC/Saves rolled against 20-80 times in a single game session. The difference between 20 (+5) and 16 (+3) is realistically makes a difference in maybe 10%ish of those rolls, allowing me to succeed or not be damaged 2-8ish more times per game session.

Now, if your gaming group spends most of its time roleplaying or exploring and thus makes fewer rolls related to To-Hit and/or Dexterity, then yeah, you can get by fine with 16 Str or Dex. But if that's the case, you an probably just ignore optimization all together. (And I'm very glad 5E supports that play style).

My groups don't spend a lot of role playing, we actually do quite a bit of hack n slash.

But with all the ways to get advantage, even without inspiration, really makes increasing your ability score lesser of a priority until later levels. I would say you don't need to hit 18 until around 10th level and really you don't need to hit 20 until like 15 ish. Sure, the higher the AS the better... But it isn't a necessity. But with the strength rogue you won't be grabbing a huge Dex score... You just don't need it. Hide with a +2 Dex is quite easily since you will have expertise if you wish. Do note with the strength rogue the dexterity won't go above +2. This works fine with medium armor. Eventually breastplate will give you 14 + 2 Dex + 2 shield (or +1 twf if you wish). Not a bad AC at all.

These high ability scores are nice and useful but at lower level they are more like overkill. Especially when you are getting advantage (equates to +5) or imposing disadvantage (to help versus your somewhat lower AC).

A dwarven strength rogue may be injured more, but they can easily have more HP than the common rogue (plus a higher con mod versus spells).

There really isn't that much of a disadvantage going Strength Rogue.

DireSickFish

2015-01-30, 05:23 PM

My groups don't spend a lot of role playing, we actually do quite a bit of hack n slash.

But with all the ways to get advantage, even without inspiration, really makes increasing your ability score lesser of a priority until later levels. I would say you don't need to hit 18 until around 10th level and really you don't need to hit 20 until like 15 ish. Sure, the higher the AS the better... But it isn't a necessity. But with the strength rogue you won't be grabbing a huge Dex score... You just don't need it. Hide with a +2 Dex is quite easily since you will have expertise if you wish. Do note with the strength rogue the dexterity won't go above +2. This works fine with medium armor. Eventually breastplate will give you 14 + 2 Dex + 2 shield (or +1 twf if you wish). Not a bad AC at all.

These high ability scores are nice and useful but at lower level they are more like overkill. Especially when you are getting advantage (equates to +5) or imposing disadvantage (to help versus your somewhat lower AC).

A dwarven strength rogue may be injured more, but they can easily have more HP than the common rogue (plus a higher con mod versus spells).

There really isn't that much of a disadvantage going Strength Rogue.

A strength based rogue is workable. And a highlight of the new system is that you can have a suboptimal ability score and still contribute. I've always been one to maximize my strengths, and making dex is making the rogue better with-ought sacrificing anything. You have to make sacrifices to do a strength based rogue, and you almost have to multiclass. You still need a 14 at least int he score where a Dex based rogue can put his other ability points where he wants, in ch to be the party face or wis if he wants to dominate perception and healing.

You are also still using the same weapons as a dex based rogue because of the finess limitation. So its not like you could go strength to pick up an uber weapon you found in the adventure.

A strength based rogue is fine and workable but is not better than a dex based one.

Easy_Lee

2015-01-30, 06:01 PM

Firstly, I don't think talking about niche stuff like going strength or particular multiclasses is necessarily relevant to the thread. It's a guide on the base rogue and how to use it, not how to make others scratch their head at your weird, endgame-oriented, multiclass, special-snowflake build.

That said...

Strength Rogue
The primary advantages of strength are stronger weapons and plate armor (+1AC over leather). Rogues can't sneak attack with heavy weapons, and can't sneak in plate armor without disadvantage.

The only reason you would go strength is if you wanted to expertise athletics for some reason. If that's the case, you're probably not a rogue, but a barbarian or fighter dipping rogue (assuming you have any idea what you're doing).

Oh yeah, and you also lose initiative, can't use sleight of hand as effectively, and benefit less from evasion than you would with DEX.

Therefore, strength is a sub-optimal choice for a pure rogue. You want it? Go for it. But it's not optimal.

Shadow Monk Rogue Multiclass
You can carry a shortsword in your mainhand and nothing in offhand. This lets you sneak attack with the shortsword and flurry with unarmed strike. It also leaves a hand free for handling caltrops/poison/ball bearings/what-have-you. If you go monk 8 / rogue 12, you end up with more ASIs than a straight monk and can more easily cap wisdom and afford more feats.

That said, there will be some levels where you're waiting on class features. You'll also end up without a capstone and will miss some features of each class.

The only real advantage of this kind of build is the ability to have expertised, reliable, pass without trace stealth with a minimum skill check almost as high as Tiamat's passive perception. That's right, even the god of dragons will have a hard time finding your hidey little shadowstepping butt.

Warlock Dip
Totally unnecessary. Unless you just have to have devil's sight even more than you need all of the other stuff rogue gets you, I wouldn't bother. You can't sneak attack with eldritch blast, and rogues can disengage as a bonus action so it's not like you need it for pushing either. You can sneak attack at range with thrown daggers and shortbows.

Warlock dips are best in the hands of bards and sorcerers, 2-3 levels. Everyone else is going to be better off just sticking with their base class, assuming they want to be good at something rather than just okay at a couple things.

SharkForce

2015-01-30, 08:57 PM

devil's sight is super-easy advantage for your rogue (and very handy for a human or other rogue that has no darksight), and eldritch blast is one of several cantrip options... if you have good charisma, it's not a bad backup option for times when you meet an opponent that is resistant to weapon damage for some reason, just as an example.

alternately, warlocks do have other perfectly interesting options for cantrips as well. eldritch blast is a very easy scaling ranged damage option for the rogue, but it certainly does not have to be something you pick up. it is, however, vastly superior in situations where you can't reliably get sneak attack (like if you're scouting and are spotted without a good place to hide in), cannot be taken away from you, bypasses weapon damage resistance and immunity, features a decent range, never runs out of ammo, and not much is resistant or immune to it (and tbh, if you have good charisma comes surprisingly close to using sneak attack for DPS anyways when combined with hex). but if you don't like that, pick something else; friends can be useful in a bind to fast-talk your way out of a fight (and to give you a 1 minute head start on the person who's about to become your enemy) and synergizes well with proficiency in disguise, for example (though tbh I'm afb and just assuming friends is on the warlock list, but it's just an example). you've already noticed that you can use simple illusions to help with stealth. as an added advantage, not choosing eldritch blast means that you've got room to consider other options for one of your invocations, since neither agonizing nor repelling blast are appealing (though I disagree that repelling blast lacks value just because you can disengage; sometimes you don't want to get away from the enemy, you just want the enemy to be in a specific place. combine with high mobility rogue, and you've got a very nice combination).

as another interesting example, you should be able to make a dagger-throwing rogue with a blade pact warlock that never runs out of daggers (and that never leaves the weapon at the scene of the crime, if that becomes relevant)

2-3 warlock levels works just fine to add some interesting options for a rogue. is it required? certainly not. but it sure as hang doesn't belong lumped in together with all the other full casters as being specifically not recommended. there are plenty of interesting and worthwhile options when combining rogue with warlock. it feels a bit questionable to lump it in together with, say, wizard, or most clerics (tricksters have some interesting possibilities though).

Cactuar

2015-01-30, 09:32 PM

What's your opinion on Skulker? I noticed you didn't mention it.

Longcat

2015-01-30, 09:39 PM

Naanomi

2015-01-30, 09:54 PM

What's your opinion on Skulker? I noticed you didn't mention it.
I noticed the omission as well

As to the Warlock dip; for an Assassin trying to use his (admittedly not fantastic) disguise abilities; an emergency at-will Disguise Self spell is great (at Warlock 2); and Warlock 3 can give a book with Guidance and 'always have a Help Action' Find Familiar which are nice as well

MeeposFire

2015-01-30, 10:58 PM

I don't know if this is "pure" enough but I actually do think that a barb5/rogue15 is a good combo. It starts as a barb for medium armor and you go str first and take dex up to 14 or 16 (depending on whether you choose to take medium armor mastery). You get just as many ASIs as a standard character (non-rogue or fighter) so you don't lose much there.

In return you get to be tougher (especially in a rage), you can always have advantage when you need it, and get multiple attacks which is great for making sure you get that sneak attack off (even if you deal 2d6 less damage with it). Also your rage damage is added when you rage with your rapier (just use str on the attack roll). Having those multiple attacks make it more likely that you get your sneak attack which means you are more likely to use your bonus action to run or hide rather than off hand attacks. Also you can choose to use a shield for more defense and still have as many attacks as dual wielding but with more damage and AC.

Chronos

2015-01-31, 02:11 PM

From the second post:

Race: It matters a lot whether you are starting your game at 1st level or 4th level or higher. As described above, you want to start the game with 20 Dexterity
And how do you plan to do that? If you build by array or point buy, you can only get up to a 15. Add another +1 or +2 from race, and you're at 16 or 17, and still need two ability score increases to hit 20. You can get a starting 18 plus 2 from race if you roll, but the odds are pretty bad, and you might get totally screwed.

Person_Man

2015-01-31, 03:28 PM

And how do you plan to do that? If you build by array or point buy, you can only get up to a 15. Add another +1 or +2 from race, and you're at 16 or 17, and still need two ability score increases to hit 20. You can get a starting 18 plus 2 from race if you roll, but the odds are pretty bad, and you might get totally screwed.

Sorry, I should have said "with Dexterity as close to 20 as possible" - I've updated the post.

I also added the Skulker Feat. I think its a solid Feat if your DM pays close attention to different types of obscured and illumination. But I personally don't (though I probably should), I usually just say "its dark" or "you're obscured behind the trees." It also slightly overlaps with the Wild Elf Masks of the Wild ability.

RE: Rogue/Barbarian: I really thought it was a good idea too the first time I considered it. But upon further consideration, my current opinion is that there's really not that much synergy there beyond the 1st level AC bonus. Reckless Attack requires melee attacks that use Strength (and makes it a lot easier for enemies to counter attack), and the Rogue wants to make ranged attacks using Dex. Danger Sense semi-overlaps with Evasion and a Rogue won't be failing Dex checks very often anyway. And plenty of other classes offer Extra Attack. (Though the move bonus is nice). Rage is handy, but a Rogue should be avoiding being hit altogether by staying away from counter attacks altogether. If you've decided that you're going Dwarf Str based Rogue/Barbarian because you don't care about high Dex, then yeah, its a workable build. I just don't see it as having any clear benefits over a standard Dex based Rogue.

RE: Rogue/Warlock: As mentioned in my main post, I think its workable if your DM allows Cantrips to apply to Sneak Attack. If the DM doesn't, I'm not really seeing the benefit over a pure Rogue. You can get Disguise Self and other similar spells from Arcane Trickster, and other spells from a Feat. The Devil's Sight/Darkness trick is nifty, but there's a long list of other ways to get Advantage, and using magical Darkness without screwing your allies is tricky.

SharkForce

2015-01-31, 04:51 PM

you can get disguise self *occasionally* with an arcane trickster. with a warlock, you can do it as often as you feel like, provided you take the invocation.

as to devil's sight/darkness, how hard it is to use will vary greatly, for starters. you can sit back as a ranged rogue very easily if you cast darkness on your area and attack from that area; instant advantage to your attacks since your enemy cannot see you. since you don't need to be right next to the rest of the party, no difficulties for them either.

then there's the fact that it's 120 feet; 60 feet more than many creatures with darksight. which means that as a scout, you can spot many enemies long before they even have a chance to spot you.

and you don't need to use cantrips for damage. I mean, it's definitely an option (again, if you have a high charisma the damage is remarkably similar while hex is running). you can still use the exact same thing you use with a single-classed rogue; your regular weapons.

what's more, you don't have to be an arcane trickster (which otherwise doesn't offer a ton) to be able to use those options; you can stack thief archetype or assassin archetype (and since you can spot enemies in darkness at 120 feet even through magical darkness, setting up a *very* nasty ambush from an assassin should be extremely easy) instead of having to go arcane trickster.

again, I'm not saying that every single rogue in existence requires a 2-3 level warlock splash to be complete. I'm saying that a 2-3 level warlock splash adds options and synergizes with rogue much better than, say, life cleric, and really should not be lumped together as if they were equal options.

it is possible to make a strong rogue with a warlock splash. it is equally possible to make a strong rogue without a warlock splash. each one will be a bit different from the other, with their own unique strengths. neither one will be inherently better.

unless your DM is actually crazy enough to let you use sneak attack with cantrips, that is... if that's the case, well, the rogue/warlock combination gets stupidly overpowered. for 2-3 levels, you get more chances to hit (and therefore more chances to apply your sneak attack damage), and those 2-3 levels of warlock mean that your eldritch blast with hex up and running is *already* dealing similar DPR to a regular rogue, *before* adding sneak attack in on top of it. from a damage perspective, allowing sneak attack with cantrips would break the system so that anyone who doesn't use eldritch blast would fall behind massively. perhaps if you limited it to only cantrips available to arcane tricksters, it might work... but definitely not if you just make a general rule that any cantrip can be used for sneak attack.

Mandragola

2015-01-31, 04:55 PM

I've a feeling that a strength-based mountain dwarf rogue could be pretty playable. I could be wrong!

You basically go around slicing stuff up with whatever is the best finesse weapon you can find (a rapier or magic whatever) and a respectable AC. Variant human could even take moderately-armoured and get a shield as well. Now you've got AC18 at first level, so you don't mind being next to monsters too much, which you'll need to be if you somehow want to use your reaction to get extra sneaks.

Starting stats something like 16 strength, 14 dex and whatever else. So you're not amazing at dex skills but you're actually only 1 point worse than the next guy. With expertise you'd be fine.

Javelins and throwing axes are pretty cool and you can sneak with them at range.

The stat requirements are heavy, but a mountain dwarf gets a lot of free stats so it's less of an issue. He could have 16, 14, 16, 10, 12, 8 with point buy at level 1. You do have to live with playing a dwarf who uses a rapier. I'm personally used to that as a pathfinder dwarf paladin I played spent most of his career with a sentient chaotic good rapier who used to be a bard.

SharkForce

2015-01-31, 09:23 PM

if you're playing variant human, I'd rather go dex-based than strength-based and still take moderately armoured if AC is that valuable to you (and to be fair, shields are pretty amazing... I'd almost even consider shield master feat and choose athletics as one of your expertise skills for a rogue, though that's probably getting carried away for most people). use either light armour (or mage armour spell) + shield if your dex makes that better, use medium armour if not (so probably for the first few levels at the very least).

alternately, if you want an armoured rogue, I'd also rather consider a splash in barbarian or fighter (fighter gives a bit of healing on a short-rest cooldown, action surge, and a fighting style which can include archery for +2 to hit and therefore an improved chance of landing your sneak attack).

mostly, strength simply doesn't add as much as dex to most characters, let alone a rogue, where you can really leverage that dex bonus with your excellent skill options. you could make a viable strength-based rogue, but you'd probably be mostly spending your time playing catch-up with where you'd be as a dex-based rogue.

the only compelling reason to build strength from an optimization standpoint is because you're forced to at the moment. which, basically, means you're planning a two-handed non-monk melee build or any sort of barbarian. obviously, if you just want to play a strength-based rogue just because you want to play a strength-based rogue, that's reason enough (and I don't think you'll be so far behind the dex-based rogue as to be irrelevant or anything like that), but mostly if you can use dex as your primary attribute it's generally a pretty good idea to do so.

Chronos

2015-01-31, 11:06 PM

Yeah, a lot of people seem to think that if you're wearing medium or heavy armor, you should use strength instead of dex, but I just don't see it. Even if you're only getting +2 AC out of your dex, it's also still the stat that gives initiative, and one of the common saves, and (as a rogue) most of your best skills. This, compared to strength, which gives you... nothing. Well, Athletics, I guess, but why are you trying to shove people instead of stabbing them?

SharkForce

2015-02-01, 12:17 AM

dex-based rogues can actually do just fine at shoving. just pick athletics as one of your skills with expertise. assuming a strength of only 10, you'll start off slightly worse (+2 beyond regular proficiency as compared to +3 for a strength-focused character with 16 or 17 strength), and eventually you end up actually better (though your progression is certainly not as quick to get to +5 for most, I'm sure).

however, I would hasten to add: there's a difference between "you can do this" and "it's a good idea to do this". even if you could shove as a bonus action (which is expensive to add onto a rogue, the obvious way of doing it being shield master which you'll want shield proficiency for), rogues generally are not lacking in excellent options to spend their bonus action on. and obviously, you don't want to spend your only attack shoving either.

Giant2005

2015-02-01, 05:24 AM

I think you are putting way too much emphasis on Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter. The Rogue gets the least use out of Sharpshooter of all of the classes and more importantly than that, the Rogue gives up far more than he gains by using it. You quite correctly state that outside of sneak attack, Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter is your primary source of damage but the key point is "outisde of sneak attack". Unless you have a Battlemaster friend around sacrificing an attack for you by using Commander's Strike, using a Crossbow prevents you from getting your reaction and the second sneak attack it brings to the table. Using Sentinel or even just relying on generic Opportunity Attacks brings that second sneak to the table and along with it, a hell of a lot more damage than you could ever hope to have with Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter.
I also think you are devaluing both Slippery Mind and Elusive.
Wisdom is an important save and a high level Rogue gets it for free. Sure you can get it via feat but feats are immensely valuable and the mere fact that you can get the same benefit without wasting an ASI/feat is huge.
Uyou also seemed to have downplayed Elusive as a poor man's Foresight and that couldn't be further from the truth. In fact if you had someone casting Foresight for you, they stack together extremely well. Enemies not being able to get advantage against you is a significant benefit that no-one else gets. You can use Reckless Attack from Barbarian and never have to worry about the downside, hell if someone was casting Foresight on you, your enemies would actually have disadvantage to hit you with Reckless Attack going! There is more to the ability than just denying the enemy Advantage - it means they cannot cancel disadvantage which is hugely important and probably the most powerful defensive ability in the game. If a character is surrounded by weak enemies that can't reliably land an attack, those enemies helping each other will give each other Advantage (Or cancel the defender's disadvantage) and break through those defenses in any character but a level 18 Rogue. That level 18 Rogue could continue tanking almost indefinitely. For Example an 18 Rogue/1 Barbarian with an AC of 22 and some way of imposing disadvantage to attacks (Arcane Trickster could do that easily enough with the Blur spell) could be surrounded by a horde of 100 Manes and on average take 1.25 damage per round. An actual Barbarian doing the same thing would take an average of 12.5 damage per turn from those same 100 Manes (Due to them helping each other so 50 of them can attack without disadvantage). Because of that one ability, the Rogue is 10x tankier than what is considered the tankiest class in the game and that is without even considering the plethora of other tanky abilities the Rogue brings to the table (Uncanny Dodge, Evasion etc.).

Person_Man

2015-02-02, 09:51 AM

I think you are putting way too much emphasis on Crossbow Expert and Sharpshooter.

I agree with your observations. Rogues have an important choice to make. Do they want to hang out on the front line and try to generate an Opportunity Attack somehow, which could potentially double their damage output from Sneak Attack. Or do they want to hang back away from the front line and use ranged attacks, where they would be safer? I myself have swung back and forth between these two options according to the situation, and my first Feat choice was Lucky.

But I think that if you're using ranged attacks most of the time, then you really want Sharpshooter so that long range attacks don't impose Disadvantage (preventing Sneak Attack) and you can ignore most cover, and you really want Crossbow Expert so that you have the option of a Bonus Action attack (which also includes damage from your Dexterity, which TWF does not include). The potential for extra damage is really just icing on the cake.

I see it as a matter of reliability. Do you want to reliably add X more average damage most rounds while staying away from the front line of combat? Or do you want to occasionally add double damage by fighting on the front line of combat. Either is a reasonable strategy.

I also think you are devaluing both Slippery Mind and Elusive.

I agree that Wis Saves/Slippery Mind is important. I'm just saying that its less powerful then the Resilient Feat. The Rogue would be better off just getting another Feat instead of Slippery Mind. And getting Slippery Mind actually dissuades Rogues from taking Resilient, when it would be a useful Feat if taken at a lower level.

I also agree that Elusive is useful, and its rated as such. I just think its weaker and less versatile then the options other classes get around 18th level. A 9th level spell slot gives a full caster access to multiple reality altering super powers. The Rogue gets to ignore Advantage on attack rolls against him. Yes its useful. But is it on par with Wish or True Polymorph etc, and the ability to switch out multiple such options each day?

Chronos

2015-02-02, 11:47 AM

Person_Man

2015-02-02, 12:24 PM

Of course it's not on a par with 9th-level casting. Nothing is on a par with spellcasting, and WotC has stopped trying to pretend otherwise.

But it's not really meaningful to say "The Rogue would be better off just getting another Feat instead of Slippery Mind.". They'd also be better off just getting another feat instead of Thieves' Cant, or instead of one of their skill proficiencies. But that's not an option. Saying "this is a better choice than that" is only meaningful if you actually get to choose between this and that. Some class features are worth more than a feat, and some class features are worth less, and that's all there is to it.

That's true. I just hope that my ratings are useful in helping people making build decisions.

For example, lets say you've reached the 7th level of Rogue. The fist seven levels of Rogue are where 90% of its awesome abilities come from. Now, you think your game might last for another 8ish levels, but probably won't go much longer then that. What do you do?

Obviously the answer is "it depends." But I don't think its worth taking 8 more levels of Rogue in order to get Slippery Mind, and would probably be better served with levels of Fighter or Ranger, and you can just fill in that ability with a Feat if its important to you.

Similarly, lets say you're starting a game at 17th level, or you're starting at mid-levels and know for sure that the game will be going to high levels. You want to play a magical Skill focused character. Should you play an Arcane Trickster, or a Bard? I would say play a Bard, because they can also have excellent Skills buffs and get much better spells. Or if your DM is willing to be generous with potions, poisons, and magic items, a Thief Rogue, so that you can make excellent use of Fast Hands, UMD, and Thief's Reflexes. But an Arcane Trickster just isn't particularly great at using magic. Though if you wanted to play a master pickpocket then Arcane Trickster is a great idea.

When I rate something as bad or mediocre, I'm not saying its a terrible ability and you should avoid it. I love the 5E Rogue, and I think all 20 levels of any subclass are perfectly playable as written. I'm just doing my best to illuminate the pros and cons of each choice in relationship to other comparable build choices you could make.

Chronos

2015-02-02, 03:34 PM

A couple of other points:

1: A familiar might or might not be able to use the Help action to grant advantage to your attack rolls. From page 175, "A character can only provide help if the task is one that he or she could attempt alone.". Now, this is in the skills section, not the combat section, so it's not clear if the scope of that rule extends to combat as well, but if it does, familiars can't attack, and therefore can't help with an attack. On the other hand, a familiar could provide the other condition for Sneak Attack, by being next to an enemy, since this does not require that the creature be capable of attacking, just that it not be incapacitated.

2: Fast Hands isn't really a good reason to pick the Thief archetype, since everything the Thief can do as a bonus action with that ability, an Arcane Trickster can also do as a bonus action via Mage Hand Legerdemain. This does depend on Mage Hand being already cast, but since it's at will, there's very little reason not to keep it up all the time. Heck, you could re-cast it every single turn while out of combat, if you'd like, to guarantee 9 rounds of being able to use it should combat come up.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-02, 05:07 PM

2: Fast Hands isn't really a good reason to pick the Thief archetype, since everything the Thief can do as a bonus action with that ability, an Arcane Trickster can also do as a bonus action via Mage Hand Legerdemain. This does depend on Mage Hand being already cast, but since it's at will, there's very little reason not to keep it up all the time. Heck, you could re-cast it every single turn while out of combat, if you'd like, to guarantee 9 rounds of being able to use it should combat come up.

Now that's an interesting point. I can't help feeling that this is either a major oversight on the part of WoTC, or something in the wording allows fast hands to do more than legerdemain. Otherwise, legerdemain is just fast hands with better range.

Fun trick: legerdemain allows for some degree of plausible deniability if you mess up. "Hey look, your wallet is floating! I certainly didn't have anything to do with it..."

Person_Man

2015-02-03, 09:59 AM

Fast Hands isn't really a good reason to pick the Thief archetype, since everything the Thief can do as a bonus action with that ability, an Arcane Trickster can also do as a bonus action via Mage Hand Legerdemain. This does depend on Mage Hand being already cast, but since it's at will, there's very little reason not to keep it up all the time. Heck, you could re-cast it every single turn while out of combat, if you'd like, to guarantee 9 rounds of being able to use it should combat come up.

I had not thought about that at all. That's an excellent catch, and I think you're correct. Though I wonder how far DMs would allow it. RAW Mage Hand doesn't explicitly allow you to "Use an Object" like Fast Hands does. Mage Hand allows you to "manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial." Legerdemain then adds the ability to stow/retrieve an object from another creature, pick locks, and disarm traps. So it seems clear that you could use Legerdemain drink a potion or apply poison as a bonus action. It's not clear if the DM would allow you to use a Healing Kit, draw and drop multiple caltrops or ball bearings, set a hunter's trap, etc.

I do believe it would be a lot more interesting and balanced at mid-high levels just to combine and tweak the Rogue subclasses together. As a DM, I don't like to force my players to take weak/situational class abilities they don't want in order to get access to some higher level class ability later.

calebrus

2015-02-03, 10:55 AM

I do believe it would be a lot more interesting and balanced at mid-high levels just to combine and tweak the Rogue subclasses together. As a DM, I don't like to force my players to take weak/situational class abilities they don't want in order to get access to some higher level class ability later.

At our table, Champion and Thief subclasses are available to BM/EK and Assn/AT respectively as feats. Since they're both very weak subclasses in their own right no one wants to take them, and we feel that their abilities should be a part of the class rather than a subclass. But Fighter and Rogue both also get extra ASIs compared to other classes.
So we allow a Fighter or Rogue to spend one of their ASIs on the second Champ/Thief subclass.

We're considering rolling Open Hand Monks and Beast Master Ranger into the base class as well.
We have tons of house rules to make the game play the way we want it.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 11:44 AM

At our table, Champion and Thief subclasses are available to BM/EK and Assn/AT respectively as feats. Since they're both very weak subclasses in their own right no one wants to take them, and we feel that their abilities should be a part of the class rather than a subclass. But Fighter and Rogue both also get extra ASIs compared to other classes.
So we allow a Fighter or Rogue to spend one of their ASIs on the second Champ/Thief subclass.

We're considering rolling Open Hand Monks and Beast Master Ranger into the base class as well.
We have tons of house rules to make the game play the way we want it.

Ah, how depressing, you just took my favorite archetypes for those classes and rolled them into others. Please allow me to defend:

Champion: any attack that crits is a guaranteed hit. Champions critical three-times as often as anyone else, which is no joke. They get two fighting styles, making lots of cool combinations possible. For instance, defensive combined with GWF and a polearm could be very effective. And at 18, they heal up to 10hp per round any time they're below half health. Those are all nice benefits.
Thief: fast hands can be used for dropping caltrops, ball bearings, and other hazards all over the place. For instance, run through a door and use fast hands to pick the lock, locking it behind you. The ability to use any magic item is huge. The eventual ability to take two turns at the start of any combat is also amazing.
BM: see the guide in my signature for some creativity regarding BM rangers
Open hand monk: throwing people with flurry has only AC as a save, meaning you can toss a dragon or colossus around as long as you hit. That alone is awesome. Quivering palm is also quite good, free sanctuary is fantastic (particularly if you stand in a choke point). Going into the Astral plane through meditation could be a huge opportunity for story points. All together, this feels like the most Monk-ly of the archetypes.

Just my opinions, but I feel that all of these archetypes are actually quite good, better than they seem on paper.

calebrus

2015-02-03, 12:00 PM

All together, this feels like the most Monk-ly of the archetypes.

Yes, just like Champion feels the most Fighter-y, and Thief feels the most Rouge-y, etc. Like I said, we feel that these should have been a part of the base class, not a specialty.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 12:16 PM

Yes, just like Champion feels the most Fighter-y, and Thief feels the most Rouge-y, etc. Like I said, we feel that these should have been a part of the base class, not a specialty.

That's fair, though I wonder if this won't lead to these classes being a bit too strong. In particular, a Ranger with both the hunter and BM archetypes would have such a long, complicated list of features that one wouldn't even know where to begin. Some of my players have trouble just keeping track of their base classes.

SharkForce

2015-02-03, 03:28 PM

Yes, just like Champion feels the most Fighter-y, and Thief feels the most Rouge-y, etc. Like I said, we feel that these should have been a part of the base class, not a specialty.

yes, those are the "standard" members of that class. and the specialists stop doing the "standard" things and instead specialize in different areas. meanwhile, the "standard" members continue to focus on the "standard" aspects of the class, and get better at those things with experience, while the specialists are busy improving their areas of specialization instead.

Easy_Lee

2015-02-03, 03:32 PM

yes, those are the "standard" members of that class. and the specialists stop doing the "standard" things and instead specialize in different areas. meanwhile, the "standard" members continue to focus on the "standard" aspects of the class, and get better at those things with experience, while the specialists are busy improving their areas of specialization instead.

I agree with this. I prefer pure classes with a focused role, which I suspect is why I like most of these archetypes.

Garimeth

2015-02-05, 10:54 AM

Giant2005

2015-02-05, 11:12 AM

Question:
OAs... my reading of Sneak Attack and the Cleric's Divine Strike both make it sound like they can only be done once per round. I'm AFB atm, and I know it says "once per turn" but I don't understand the justification where they can be used on reactions, could somebody clarify that for me?

A round is the entire 6 seconds of combat which means everyone involved in the battle has had their turn. A turn is everything one character does during his initiative. Due to a reaction occurring during on someone else's turn it can provide a sneak attack because it was on a separate turn to the first even if it occurred during the same round.

Garimeth

2015-02-05, 11:15 AM

A round is the entire 6 seconds of combat which means everyone involved in the battle has had their turn. A turn is everything one character does during his initiative. Due to a reaction occurring during on someone else's turn it can provide a sneak attack because it was on a separate turn to the first even if it occurred during the same round.

Cool thanks for that!

Easy_Lee

2015-02-05, 11:24 AM

Not too shabby, especially in a game that doesn't allow feats.

Just my opinion, but I don't think you ought to even play a 5e game without fests, especially not as a rogue. Bonus feats are a major balancing factor for the class.

Don't listen to any developer who claims that the game is balanced without feats in mind, because they're full of ****. Feats are the only reason why rogues and fighters can compete with other classes.

Person_Man

2015-02-05, 11:31 AM

One comment and one question.

Comment:
Forest Gnome is a fairly good race for rogue as well, nets you +2 int, +1 dex, Darkvision, Adv. on mental saves against magic, minor illusion cantrip, and the ability to speak with small animals. Not too shabby, especially in a game that doesn't allow feats.

Yes, its definitely a respectable choice, especially if your DM is fond of mental magic. I just can't think of a strong argument for why it would be a better choice then elf, variant human, or halfling.

Question:
OAs... my reading of Sneak Attack and the Cleric's Divine Strike both make it sound like they can only be done once per round. I'm AFB atm, and I know it says "once per turn" but I don't understand the justification where they can be used on reactions, could somebody clarify that for me?

"The game organizes the chaos of combat into a cycle of rounds and turns. A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of a combat encounter, when everyone rolls initiative. Once everyone has taken a turn, the fight continues to the next round if neither side has defeated the other."

Sneak Attack is limited to "once per turn" and not once per round. Each word has a specific meaning as defined in the rules. So the RAW is pretty clear, though it may not seem intuitive to someone who has played previous editions, where the definitions were slightly different.

Sneak Attack is worded differently from Divine Strike, which says "Once on each of your turns..." Which clearly limits it to your turn, not other people's turns.

This has been confirmed by Mearls here (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/490631877070299137) and here (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/489809464237625344). (For what it's worth).

Garimeth

2015-02-05, 12:02 PM

Yes, its definitely a respectable choice, especially if your DM is fond of mental magic. I just can't think of a strong argument for why it would be a better choice then elf, variant human, or halfling.

"The game organizes the chaos of combat into a cycle of rounds and turns. A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of a combat encounter, when everyone rolls initiative. Once everyone has taken a turn, the fight continues to the next round if neither side has defeated the other."

Sneak Attack is limited to "once per turn" and not once per round. Each word has a specific meaning as defined in the rules. So the RAW is pretty clear, though it may not seem intuitive to someone who has played previous editions, where the definitions were slightly different.

Sneak Attack is worded differently from Divine Strike, which says "Once on each of your turns..." Which clearly limits it to your turn, not other people's turns.

This has been confirmed by Mearls here (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/490631877070299137) and here (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/489809464237625344). (For what it's worth).

Thanks for the response. I think Forest Gnome would be on par with elf, depending on how much mileage you can get out of minor illusion or speak with animals.

As for the the OA clarification, thanks for that to you and Ginat, knew there had to be something I was missing.

Easy_Lee:
I agree feats are a pretty indispensable part of the game, but even in a game with feats allowed I think Forest gnome is on par with Elf, and I think in a game where illumination is important darkvision and a cantrip is worth the loss of one feat at first level. Just my 2 cp!

ImSAMazing

2015-06-15, 11:08 AM

Thanks for this summary dude!

djreynolds

2015-06-15, 08:14 PM

If you dig around, cunning knight and iron scoundrel are builds suggested in my thread, fighter multiclassing and shield master. Pretty cool. Is a hand axe wielded finesse or dagger. I imagine a dwarf covered with throwing knives

ImSAMazing

2015-06-16, 12:35 AM

Coffee_Dragon

2015-08-27, 06:59 PM

Fast Hands: You can use Sleight of Hand, Thieves' Tools, and Use an Object as Bonus Actions. The Dungeon Master’s Guide specifically states that Use an Object does not cover the use of magic items. But it does cover the use of potions, caltrops, applying poison, hunter’s trap, oil, holy water, ball bearings, healer’s kit, etc.

Regrettably, the DMG explicitly states potions to be magical items activated by drinking, meaning they aren't covered by Fast Hands. Counterintuitive, but so's a lot of things.

You can also take the Healer Feat to revive or heal fallen allies as a Bonus Action, which is a huge deal.

This has been the standard response to the question "what do you even do with Fast Hands" since the DMG was released. However, a sensible DM is likely to say that a) it's absurd to examine and bandage a wound under worn armour in a fraction of a round, and b) you need two free hands for it anyway. So I must say I'm currently a lot happier with my Second-Story Work as amplified by jumpy boots.

Coffee_Dragon

2015-08-27, 07:12 PM

Mobile: Increases your speed, improves Dash, and allows you to avoid an Opportunity Attack from a creature you attack. This overlaps somewhat with Cunning Action. But if your DM frequently uses a tabletop map/grid for combat and you are constantly swarmed by enemies, movement speed and positioning can become a lot more important, and this Feat can free up your Bonus Action for other purposes.

For all the reasons you mention here I would put Mobile on the black tier at least, assuming a TWF rogue. (And you seem to have some situational valuations already, e.g. I would think Alert is only much preferable to Observant for Assassins.)

I would include Resilient (Con) in the list for prospective proficiency in the three big saves.

Dual Wielder is OK (say purple) for reinforcing the TWF aspect of a character even if it doesn't lend itself to optimizing in the same way people have interpreted certain other combat feats.

Fighting_Ferret

2015-08-27, 07:44 PM

Just a note: Use Magic Device allows rogues to use wands and scrolls. Making them the only class in the game that can cast from every spell list. Now how effective that is is based of their ability proficiencies, but intelligence already has proficiency, so all wizard spells would be cast at lowest 10+proficiency+int mod, making them able to cast up to 4th level spell scrolls without error with only a 10 in INT at level 13 when they get the ability. With a few points in INT (2) they could easily cast up to 8th level scrolls perfectly with no failure by level 17.

That ability should be the best thing the Thief Archtype has going for it.

Flashy

2015-08-27, 07:58 PM

That ability should be the best thing the Thief Archtype has going for it.

As the guide points out the problem is that it's way, way too game dependent. So yeah, you can use restricted magic items if you get them and if there's no one else in the party who could otherwise use them. So if for some reason you find a wand of web as one of the unknown number of magic items you might get and there's no spellcaster in the party then the thief can use it.

Nifft

2015-08-27, 08:16 PM

Nice guide.

One quibble:

Death Strike: A Surprised enemy must make a Save or your damage is doubled. The only problem with this ability is that by the time you get it, most boss enemies will usually have Legendary abilities that allow them to ignore a failed Save, and you probably won’t need the extra damage (which already benefits from Assassinate) to kill a non-Legendary enemy.

In my (limited) experience with high-level play, forcing a boss to blow one of its three Legendary Resistance uses is a big deal. That's like 1/3 of its anti-magic HP.

Dealing a big chunk of damage and forcing a save may put the DM in the unhappy position of deciding whether his pet monster dies from HP damage in a few rounds, or dies from a saving throw in a few rounds. That's a great decision to force on the DM.

Fighting_Ferret

2015-08-27, 08:18 PM

But isn't that really the point of the rogue: thief archetype... a swiss army knife. Sure it is campaign dependent, but it is still a very flexible option.

Corey

2015-08-27, 08:24 PM

In older versions of the game, Rogue 1/Wizard X was one of my standard build approaches. So my first reaction on seeing the 5e Arcane Trickster was very favorable. But the more I looked, the more limited it felt.

And yeah -- part of this is that I fantasize about my characters being solo thieves in an urban setting, but that isn't really what would happen in play ...

PoeticDwarf

2015-08-28, 08:37 AM

One thing, without sneak attack the damage off a full rogue would be very bad, sneak attack is very important. Things like evasion are important, but not more important than the extra damage you often have.

MirddinEmris

2015-09-28, 12:39 AM

I really do not agree with your assertion of Shadow Way monks being better stealth users then Rogues. They are certainly good and have unique and powerful abilities, but being straight better? Let's compare their ability of infiltrators both in and out of combat. I'll take Arcane Trickster archetype for this comparison.

First of all, numbers are on the Rogue's side, double prof bonus, no arguing here. Both classes usually have Dex as primary stat, so no advantage to anyone. Reliable Talent just puts them ahead more, guarding against bad rolls.

Second, action economy also favors Rogues. Most abilities of Monks are taking action, but for Rogues Hiding, using Sleight of Hand (with mage hand), picking locks (with mage hand) and handle objects (with mage hand again) is a bonus action, which means that doing same thing, rogues will do it much quicker than monks. And being able to hide (potentially) every round in combat while also using your combat abilities is priceless.

Let's compare their archetype abilities.

At 3rd level Shadow Way monk gets minor illusion cantrip and ability to replicate certain spells with Ki (2 per one spell). Darkness (2nd level evocation), Darkvision (2nd level transmutation), Pass without trace (2ns level abjuration) and Silence (2nd level illusion, ritual), two of which is on wizard's spell list, but they are not illusion or enchantment, which means that Arcane Trickster can only have one of them on his list, or take two by not taking higher level spell. Those spells are very useful and what's more important, monk get them much earlier than rogue can hope. On the other hand, rogue also have a very extensive list to pick from and even if he doesn't have access to every spell monk has, he can use something similar to duplicate effect most of the time. And let's compare number of spell per day - at level 10 monk can cast only 5 spells tops (with his 10 ki) and cast Minor Illusion at will, while rogue have three 2nd level spells, four 1st level and access to 4 cantrips (one of which will probably be a Minor Illusion, speaking from my experience). And there is an other thing - monk have to spend their Ki, which means that every casting is going at the expense of other abilities they can use, like Flurry of Blows. Of course monks only have to rest 30 minutes to regain their Ki points, while rogues need to finish long rest, which means that monks have more chances to regain their abilities while adventuring that rogues.

I say rogues have more flexibility and variety (more different spells from wider spell list and casting does not impair use of other abilities), while monk have more stamina (easier to regain spells). Power of spell is on the monk side earlier in the game, but then shift to the rogue's side in the late game. Mid game they more or less equal

At 6th level monks have the ability to teleport from shadow to shadow as a bonus action and you gain an advantage on next melee attack. That is very powerful and handy. The only thing rogues have that can come close to this is Misty Step spell, but it is limited in use (being spell), have range of 30 instead of 60 and they get it at level 8 instead of 6th, though it doesn't have requirement "from shadow to shadow" which is a bit advantageous. That is a BIG plus to Shadow Way monks

Rogues on other hand have ability to manipulate things with their mage hand at distances, things like stealing, disabling traps and lock and turning that darned suspicious lever. Which as you can guess adds to their survivability and versatility. And they can do that with bonus action too.

At level 11th monks have ability to turn invisible at will. Which sounds like very OP ability until you read that they can do that only in dim light or darkness and exposure to brings light (like torches, lanterns, candles and, you know, sun) makes him visible. That really limits usability, since if you are sticking to the shadows you can just use Stealth. It has it's uses of course, but nothing compared to real spell (which is available to rogues).

With all of this being said, i would put rogues a bit ahead as infiltrators. Sure i can imagine situations where monks can be a preferable choice, but things like Expertise, Reliable talent and overall versatility and action economy of the rogues makes them more desirable as your day-to-day infiltrators. Of course since comparison was made mainly with Arcane Tricksters, things will be a bit different for archetypes like Assassin and Swashbuckler, who have less stealth oriented abilities.

P.S. Considering rogue's spells, i hear that Int is not primary stat for rogues and you shouldn't use spells with saves. In my experience of playing Arcane Trickster it is not exactly so. 16-18 Int is always possible (especially if you are High Elf or something similar). Starting from level 9 you can impose disadvantage on saving throws if you are hidden from the target which is like +3 to your roll, speaking from probability side of things. Which makes tactics like this certainly possible. Especially if you take spells with different saves ans use them wisely.

SharkForce

2015-09-28, 08:57 AM

the rogue will never get pass without trace. it isn't a wizard spell.

thus, the monk has an extra +10 from that spell (which also boosts the whole party so they can come along) at level 3, and the rogue only gets +6 from expertise at level 17+ (before then, it is of course lower). until reliable talent, the monk is definitely ahead.

also, the monk at level 10 gets 10 spells... per short rest. not per long rest, which is what you're comparing to on the rogue.

you can't hide in dim light without the skulker feat. so there's something the monk can do that the rogue can't (without a feat). conveniently enough, the other advantage (being able to somewhat see) is also granted to the shadow monk via the darkvision spell. furthermore, the monk being actually invisible in dim light will be able to remain hidden even from enemies that can see in darkness. the rogue is screwed if their enemy has darkvision.

perhaps most importantly of all, the monk has drastically superior ability to escape from difficult situations, has much better ability to bring the entire party along on stealth missions, and has much better ability to fight alone if their stealth is lost.

rogues bring a lot of value to a party. i think they make a great addition, personally. but if i'm looking for party stealth, shadow monk is a really nice addition, provided nobody else is already covering pass without trace.

MirddinEmris

2015-09-28, 09:33 AM

the rogue will never get pass without trace. it isn't a wizard spell.

+10 is hard to replicate, it's true

also, the monk at level 10 gets 10 spells... per short rest. not per long rest, which is what you're comparing to on the rogue.

10 ki at level 10, 2 ki per spell. 5 spells per short rest. And i mentioned that actually, that is why my conclusion was that monk has greater stamina for his abilities. Though still, conclusion same as before - versatility and flexibility for the rogue, stamina for the monk. Power is on the monk side early on, but shifts toward the rogue at the end

you can't hide in dim light without the skulker feat. so there's something the monk can do that the rogue can't (without a feat).

If you are talking about invisibility then it's not so easy. Monk has to cast it as an action and can hide only on the next turn ("invisible" condition makes you heavily obscured, but not hidden). While rogue can dash and hid in the same round, for example.

conveniently enough, the other advantage (being able to somewhat see) is also granted to the shadow monk via the darkvision spell. furthermore, the monk being actually invisible in dim light will be able to remain hidden even from enemies that can see in darkness. the rogue is screwed if their enemy has darkvision.

Rogue have access to both invisibility (that doesn't disappear in light) and darkvision (and it's not so rare trait in the 5e, lot's of races have it). Being able to stay invisible only in the dark is drastically removes a lot of advantages to invisibility. And i already said that there are situations where shadow way monk can be more desirable, but rogues abilities are more flexible and universal.

perhaps most importantly of all, the monk has drastically superior ability to escape from difficult situations, has much better ability to bring the entire party along on stealth missions, and has much better ability to fight alone if their stealth is lost.

True on being able to bring the party, false on ability to escape. Misty step available to rogues at level 8 as a spell (and works in the light too). Also rogues can Dash and Disengage as a bonus action without need to spend Ki or something like that, so i don't see that "drastic superiority"

In the end, i played both Shadow Way monk and Arcane Trickster (only to the mid-levels, though the game with rogue is still going on, so ...who knows) rogue and found latter more flexible in a game despite second game being very light on magic items (by level 9 for example i had only Gloves of Thievery for my arcane trickster). And even though our GM wasn't very meticulous about light in the first game, i found myself in a lot of situation where bright light restricted my abilities. Being stealthy is all about adapting to situations and rogues can do it better. And they can also be good at lot of other stuff usually associated with stealth, like disarming traps and opening doors, arcane tricksters are even better at this being able to manipulate items at 30ft distance, which usually means that you can steal key from a guard (for example) without even getting out of cover. The problem with monks that i experienced the most was that their abilities are fueled from one source - Ki. A good combat can drain your pool in the blink of an eye, and you can't expect being able to sit on your ass for an hour after each on of them, i often found myself being empty on ki or being very frugal in combat (knowing that i'll need Ki later on) and packing a lot less punch in that case

Also, about +10 to stealth. It's really good...but i don't think that i failed many Stealth saves with only double proficiency (i can remember only one actually), so maybe that is just overkill. But being able to make everyone in the party stealthy is very useful ability, that i can say for sure, i would be glad to have it in many situations playing as AT rogue.

SharkForce

2015-09-28, 12:08 PM

MirddinEmris

2015-09-28, 12:29 PM

monk has higher base speed, don't need to dash as often as rogue. they can run on walls, jump from extreme heights without getting hurt, jump farther than normal, and teleport further. they don't need to pick locks if they can see through something (the lock itself, a window, etc) because they don't need to conserve their teleport.

Disengage is still a thing, and i don't think that 10ft movement will compare with Dash as bonus action for free. Running on the walls and liquids comes at level 9, a bit late for ability like this at my opinion, rogue have access to level 2 spells at that time and thief archetype actually can move more freely too at level 3 (climbing don't cost extra). And when you can pick locks as bonus action, you can save teleport for more dangerous situations. Teleport that doesn't rely on shadows)

dim light is not that rare. not many rooms are going to be brightly lit all the time. in emergency situations, it is also easy to create darkness or dim light so you can escape.

Dim light in the place that you need it to be is more rare than you think, at least in my experience. This ability is powerful, but more situational that rogue's one. It's maybe easy to create one (though not so without spells, and anyway it would be at least one action) where you stand, but not so easy to do so in a place you want to be.

you are right on the 5 spells per short rest thing though. brain fart there on my part.

Happens all the time to me, don't worry :)

rogues add a lot of stuff. shadow monks are still better for sneaking.

That depends on what is considered "better". They can use their abilities more often and with more punch (though not always, spell "invisibility" is way better than monk's ability), but rogues have better action economy (like example with invisibility, monk need to take two rounds to hide with invisibility, but rogue needs only one) and have more abilities and they can be applied in any situation. Also, some abilities, like Reliable Talent and Expertise are active always, but Pass Without Trace is limited in use and need an action to cast and concentration to sustain. And invisibility for monks comes at level 11 and rogues can enjoy it as early as level 7.

So i really wouldn't say that monks are just plain better. They are better in come situations that is sure, but rogues have more or less same level of competence in almost every situation and have more tools, and that counts for something. I don't say that rogues are better, i just say that saying "monks are better infiltrators" is totally untrue.

MirddinEmris

2015-09-28, 01:02 PM

Theodoxus

2015-09-28, 10:17 PM

I think THE BEST INFILTRATOR OF ALL TIMES would actually be a multiclass of shadow way monk and rogue. Both are pretty front loaded in that regard. 2 level dip in rogue or 3-4 in monk will give other class plenty of boosts in regards of stealth and other things.

I was thinking that too. 2/18 Rogue Monk gets you everything except Perfect Self (meh) 3/17, you lose Empy Body - but you can already go invisible, so you're really just losing Astral Projection - potentially important by 20th level, but that's what your friendly mage is for.

I'd probably start Monk. Str saves are better than Int saves currently (and becomes moot by 17th level (3/14)) Monk 1, rogue 3, Monk x - using Flurry to make up for the lack of an extra attack until 8th level. Dagger for sneak, flurry for extra hits, bonus action - lots of options; movement, escape, hide, attack (offhand dagger if your main missed for sneak, otherwise MA or Flurry as desired)... Each Rogue archetype brings it's own advantages at 3rd - depending on your party needs, each works well with Shadowmonks.

Hmm.. typically I mix rogue and barbarian - but this has my juices flowing...

MirddinEmris

2015-09-28, 11:09 PM

If it's only a dip in the rogue, then i would go with Thief, which would really expand uses for Cunning Action without need to have Mage Hand ready. If i go with Rogue dipping in Monk then it would be 4 level of Shadow Way monk (for 4 Ki, which means 2 cast per short rest and ASI) and rest is Arcane Trickster, and would really have wide array of spells and abilities.

Going with Monk as primary class have advantage of having more Ki, Stunning Strike (nice synergy with sneak attack), Extra Attack and Stillness of the mind. Also Diamond Soul, but it comes late in case of multiclassing (17 level if you go with three levels of Rogue). Also shadow teleport and invisibility in the shadows.

Going with Rogue means you will have more Sneak Attack, Uncanny Dodge, More ASI, Reliable Talent and either Supreme Sneak or more spells (with disadvantage on saving throws if you hidden from creature) with ability to manipulate things from 30 ft distance.

Just imagine someone with Pass Without Trace, double proficiency bonus and not rolling less than '10". Madness, i tell you. That guy would have trouble shaving 'cause he wouldn't see himself in the mirror.

P.S. What i find really strange is that Monks aren't proficient in Wisdom saving throws.

Mara

2015-09-29, 01:18 AM

MirddinEmris

2015-09-29, 02:21 AM

Monks can throw off many wis save effects though. Eventually they are prof in all saves.

Monk is really strong. How rogues measure up depends on how the DM is running the skill system, which the rogue has the edge.

Eventually means "pretty late in the game". Rogues become proficient in Wis saves also, a level later, at 15th.

"Strong" is really nebulous. Depends on what you measure, really. For example Assassin built and played right will exceed monks at damage, most of the time. Is that strong? If we are talking about stealth only, then i already made an analysis about their abilities. Rogues have more flexibility and versatility to their abilities, they are more adaptable to many situations. For example, monks will have real trouble using their abilities during the day, and you don't always choose where and when you need to sneak on someone or somewhere.

Person_Man

2015-09-29, 08:23 AM

I think THE BEST INFILTRATOR OF ALL TIMES would actually be a multiclass of shadow way monk and rogue. Both are pretty front loaded in that regard. 2 level dip in rogue or 3-4 in monk will give other class plenty of boosts in regards of stealth and other things.

That would definitely be a very strong infiltrator. Though if we're assuming a mid-level or higher game, if I wanted to maximize infiltration ability I would actually go with Rogue 2/Land Druid X (probably Underdark). Rogue for the extra Proficiencies, Expertise (Stealth and Perception) and Cunning Action. Then Druid for Wildshape (which is awesome for exploration/infiltration, as noted in my original posts), Guidance (floating at-will bonus to Skill checks out of combat, including thieves tools and Investigation), Darkvision, Pass Without Trace, Greater Invisibility: Gaseous Form, Detect Magic, Longstrider, Locate Object, Find Traps, Meld into Stone, Polymorph, etc.

Though it's noteworthy that Druids typically have lower ambush and at-will damage when compared to strait Rogues, which is a big deal in most games.

SharkForce

2015-09-29, 09:33 AM

I was thinking that too. 2/18 Rogue Monk gets you everything except Perfect Self (meh) 3/17, you lose Empy Body - but you can already go invisible, so you're really just losing Astral Projection - potentially important by 20th level, but that's what your friendly mage is for.

I'd probably start Monk. Str saves are better than Int saves currently (and becomes moot by 17th level (3/14)) Monk 1, rogue 3, Monk x - using Flurry to make up for the lack of an extra attack until 8th level. Dagger for sneak, flurry for extra hits, bonus action - lots of options; movement, escape, hide, attack (offhand dagger if your main missed for sneak, otherwise MA or Flurry as desired)... Each Rogue archetype brings it's own advantages at 3rd - depending on your party needs, each works well with Shadowmonks.

Hmm.. typically I mix rogue and barbarian - but this has my juices flowing...

i would not categorize empty body as being a trivial loss.

empty body makes you invisible without the caveat that doing anything interesting at all removes your invisibility. it is improved invisibility combined with bear totem barbarian resistance to damage, more or less (force being your weakness instead of psychic).

now, i'll hop right on the "good luck actually getting to use that ability since it doesn't come into play until level 20" train, but no, it is not something where you just say "oh, well i can already go invisible so who cares about it". empty body is so much better than just invisibility it isn't even funny. for all intents and purposes, empty body is the real monk capstone, and if you actually are going to spend a lot of time at a level where you can use it, i would think long and hard about what i'm gaining before sacrificing it.

Citan

2015-09-29, 09:49 AM

Hi Person_Man's!!

Ok, first off, the most important part of my post.
THANK YOU VERY MUCH for this guide. I fully agree with most points. Especially those parts on how to play it ^^
"When played intelligently, Rogue is hard to kill" & "you most collaborate with party members to define tactics".

I soo wish one of my players would read this guide. He absolutely wanted to play a Rogue because he likes the fluff, but basically either just run to hide to avoid fight, or rush-in as if he was a Tank, while forgetting 80% of its class abilities. ^^

Rogue is indeed more complex to play efficiently than it looks.

Anyways, a few opinions on specific points of your guide.
1. Thieves' Cant: very DM dependent, but if DM takes this into account in the campaign (like forcing players in the underground world), this class ability can be a very good way to get entrance or information that even charismatic characters couldn't get otherwise.

2. Reliable Talent: I feel you're making too many assumptions on how the player will build his Rogue to rate this as low...
- All players won't be taking Lucky (either because they prefer other combinations, or just can't afford feat),
- Allies won't always be here to help or buff you (especially for a Thief or Assassin who would go on a solo mission for example);
- It counters even disadvantage on the ability check;
- It can synergize extremely well with Skilled feat if you're the Skill Monkey or a multiclass Bard (ok, multiclass is out of scope, I know).
This should be at least black imo, if not blue. :)

3. Blindsense: again, sure other people have other ways to detect, but yours is always active, and doesn't require concentration. In the context of multiclassing, this is not worth the level indeed. For a pure class? At least one degree higher rating.

4. Spellcasting: red? Many good spells for a Rogue don't rely on intelligence (not even accounting for the fact that someone going Trickster will probably have at least 14, if not 16 starting INT). Also, again, yes pure spellcasters have better options, but this not mean you're always a lesser choice to disable an enemy. Since each character has only one Concentration slot, it may be welcome that you apply a debuff so that your fellow spellcaster can keep its concentration on another buff/debuff or cast a hurting/healing spell.
Especially good with the lvl9 ability.

I totally agree with you that the limited slots is a pain though (unless spellpoints), but hey, you also have the whole Rogue class abilities, so it's not so bad.

5. Mage Hand: you make valid points on the fact that this ability is more or less useful depending on the situation (and one's own craftiness). However, the argument of needing somatic/verbal components? Well, Warcaster is a probable feat for most Trickster anyways. :)

6. Multiclass Wizard: should at least get its own section and rated black or higher. Seriously.
Same spellcasting stat, great school features at level 2 (if only, the obvious Portent or Arcane Ward), more spells and more spell slots. Yes, it requires you to invest a bit more in INT or carefully select your spells if you go beyond lvl 2, but if may be very worthwhile (especially since you rate high-level Rogue abilities so low).

Globally agree with the rest (well, a few minor gripes not worth talking about on some points, some having already been pointed out by others in the thread such as multiclassing Monk/Barb/Paladin ^^).

With that said, it's your guide, so it's natural it reflects your opinions first. :)
I may copy your first part into an email as a "not-so-subtile" message to my player...

Also, I think Shadow Monk 6 / Assassin Rogue 14 is particularly potent. I wouldn't do any other combinations of Monk and Rogue, though.
Funny, I prefer the reverse. :)
Shadow Monk 14 / Assassin Rogue 6 gives you much stronger mobility and defense and plenty of ki points to either prepare your surprise attack or stun enemies, you make decent damage on Unarmored Strikes, and you have no overlapse in abilities (Evasion I tell your name).

True enough though, such a build would be a Monk with Rogue flavour but could not feel like a true Rogue (not ability check goodness, low Sneak Attack).
So for a "true" Rogue main build I agree with you. :)

CNagy

2015-09-29, 11:17 AM

i would not categorize empty body as being a trivial loss.

empty body makes you invisible without the caveat that doing anything interesting at all removes your invisibility. it is improved invisibility combined with bear totem barbarian resistance to damage, more or less (force being your weakness instead of psychic).

now, i'll hop right on the "good luck actually getting to use that ability since it doesn't come into play until level 20" train, but no, it is not something where you just say "oh, well i can already go invisible so who cares about it". empty body is so much better than just invisibility it isn't even funny. for all intents and purposes, empty body is the real monk capstone, and if you actually are going to spend a lot of time at a level where you can use it, i would think long and hard about what i'm gaining before sacrificing it.

Truth. Perfect Self only becomes a bit better when you realize that what it really does is let you start every combat with enough Ki to activate Empty Body once you've blown through all of your Ki.

Yahway666

2015-11-03, 06:03 PM

Thanks for the guide!

I'm curious though, what do you think about rogue assassin 15/ranger 5 build? I'm thinking about going that route in order to get the extra attack, basic spellcasting, weapon proficiencies, and fighting style (haven't decided which one as they are all situationally useful for me). All I lose from the rogue is 2d6 sneak attack, death mark (but that is somewhat replaced by extra attack coupled with free crits), elusive, and stroke of luck.

Thoughts?

Theodoxus

2015-11-08, 06:28 PM

Now that WotC has done the Great Purge, this is the only guide easy to find on the market, so to speak. Any chance you'd update it to include SCAG material?

I'm looking for information on Swashbuckler specifically - and all the good ideas were hosted by WotC...

hymer

2015-11-20, 12:05 PM

Something occurred to me, and I thought I'd bring it up here: Reliable Talent can let you cast spells from scrolls without fear of wasting the scroll and the action. Thieves used to be able to read scrolls of any kind, once they got up in level, with a certain chance of misfire. With Arcana, anyone who can read can try to read a scroll of a spell they don't know and/or can't cast yet (which would be all spells for most rogues). The DC is 10 + spell level.
With Reliable Talent and a little investment (just proficiency a lot of the time, expertise if you wan't all spell levels fairly fast and have no other means of boosting Arcana), you can reliably cast just about any scroll you come across. And there will be no need to dip into various rerolls or set it up with help from others, which means it becomes a much more attractive option in a fight, or for multiple uses in a day. And if you're a scout, you will spend more time alone than most PCs.
Arcana also deals with magical traps, so it may generally be more worthy of interest to a rogue at second glance. You probably couldn't gain expertise until level 6, but then you'd likely find few spell scrolls before then. And at level 11, you can use that scroll of Raise Dead on the Cleric, or Dispel Magic to free the wizard, or Conjure Animals to facilitate flanking, slip in and smack someone with Contagion and run away, etc. And it opens the possibility of getting spells with a range of Self (Disguise Self and Ensnaring Strike, e.g., could have particular interest for rogues).

It is, obviously, conditional on the amount of scrolls in the campaign. But if you expect to find many (or even to get to buy them), it opens your options markedly.

Satyrnine

2015-12-24, 02:10 PM

How has no one mentioned haste yet?

MaxWilson

2015-12-24, 02:53 PM

but really the main thing is that pass without trace is ludicrously powerful.

Yes, this, especially when you get it X times per short rest. A Shadow Monk at 8th level can afford to have Pass Without Trace up literally all the time the party is on the move, if that's what he chooses to spend his ki on. (Just take a one-hour break after every four hours of movement, which you'll probably want to do anyway just to eat.)

A Mobile Shadow Monk 6/Warlock 2 with Devil's Sight and Booming/Greenflame Blade is basically Nightcrawler attacking the White House in X-Men 2. Jump out (wearing Darkness), attack with advantage for 4d8+3ish effective damage, teleport back out. All the enemy sees is that suddenly the darkness came alive, and there were screams, and now somebody is dead.

It is true that against enemies standing in an open field in broad daylight, you won't be very powerful, but that is exactly the scenario in which the party Sharpshooter comes into play and murders them all from long range. Shadow Monks and Sharpshooters go well together in the sense that it is hard to build a realistic scenario that neither of them is able to exploit.

solidork

2015-12-24, 03:33 PM

MaxWilson

2015-12-24, 07:03 PM

SwordChuck

2015-12-24, 10:21 PM

Does anyone else actually kind of hate going first in initiative as a Rogue? Obviously its good as an assassin, but as Arcane Trickster it is frequently super awkward. If you want to sneak attack you have to ready an action and wait for an ally to get into range, but there is a real chance that you basically waste your action which feels awful. I guess I should be moving to hide as long as there is cover? I don't know, it just seems like it works out much better if you go after other people have a chance to take their turn.

Completely changing gears: I think it is kind of interesting that the flavor of rogues makes them out to be kind of lone wolves, but in reality they depend a lot on having a partner to work with. It would be cool to take that mechanic and have it guide your worldbuilding in how thieves guilds are structured, or maybe instead of having a single mythical badass Rogue, it was two rogues.

Also, shout out to the 5e designers for making even pretty poorly optimized builds play just fine. I'm playing a human Arcane Trickster that took Skilled at level 1 and plans on multiclassing into Knowledge Cleric. Oh, and I took Ritual Casting(Wizard) at 4. :smallbiggrin:

Poorly optimise only plays fine at the lowest of levels, after a few levels they fall behind. Same thing in 4e except you could keep your unoptimised character around a lot longer.

I actually wish the floor was a bit higher in 5e, would make introducing new players easier.

Also, as a Rogue you don't want to be using the ready action to much. Your sneak attack can go off twice per round (more with tunnel fighter...) if you attack and then hit with an OA (bards are good help with this, as is a strength based rogue) you boost your damage quite a bit.

solidork

2015-12-24, 10:56 PM

Poorly optimise only plays fine at the lowest of levels, after a few levels they fall behind. Same thing in 4e except you could keep your unoptimised character around a lot longer.

I actually wish the floor was a bit higher in 5e, would make introducing new players easier.

Also, as a Rogue you don't want to be using the ready action to much. Your sneak attack can go off twice per round (more with tunnel fighter...) if you attack and then hit with an OA (bards are good help with this, as is a strength based rogue) you boost your damage quite a bit.

I am specifically talking about the first round of combat when you go first. The way I see it, unless you have surprise your only options to sneak attack are to attack hidden from range or ready an attack for when your allies go in.

SwordChuck

2015-12-24, 11:31 PM

I am specifically talking about the first round of combat when you go first. The way I see it, unless you have surprise your only options to sneak attack are to attack hidden from range or ready an attack for when your allies go in.

Even then you don't want to use an action so that you can later use your reaction. Your trigger may not even go off unless your DM is very nice.

When you ready an action you use your action to do as such. You then set a trigger. You can't be too vague and if you are too specific then it may never happen. You then use your reaction based on your initial wording of the ready action. You are better off getting into position for the next turn or casting a spell.

Going first for the rogue is the best solution as they have cunning action to either hide or get the he'll away from enemies. Hell, one of the best used of cunning action that ice seen is a Rogue moving forward 10', using the help action, and disengaging to move 20' back behind the fighter.

Using the "Ready an action" action is the worst thing you could do unless you have a specific trap laid out already, which most cases won't be the case. Ready an action is so DM dependant and risky that it really just isn't worth it.

Better to give someone else advantage than potentially twiddling your thumbs for 6 seconds.

solidork

2015-12-24, 11:56 PM

Even then you don't want to use an action so that you can later use your reaction. Your trigger may not even go off unless your DM is very nice.

When you ready an action you use your action to do as such. You then set a trigger. You can't be too vague and if you are too specific then it may never happen. You then use your reaction based on your initial wording of the ready action. You are better off getting into position for the next turn or casting a spell.

Going first for the rogue is the best solution as they have cunning action to either hide or get the he'll away from enemies. Hell, one of the best used of cunning action that ice seen is a Rogue moving forward 10', using the help action, and disengaging to move 20' back behind the fighter.

Using the "Ready an action" action is the worst thing you could do unless you have a specific trap laid out already, which most cases won't be the case. Ready an action is so DM dependant and risky that it really just isn't worth it.

Better to give someone else advantage than potentially twiddling your thumbs for 6 seconds.

Hence my frustration at continually winning initiative. :smallsmile:

SwordChuck

2015-12-25, 12:07 AM

Hence my frustration at continually winning initiative. :smallsmile:

Winning initiative is the best thing for you to do.

Your AC won't be the highest and neither will your HP.

Winning initiative isn't alway about doing damage, can be about mitigating damage, setting up traps, or helping out others. The list of options for a Rogue is quite long.

Take athletics expertise. Move up to an enemy and shove them prone. Disengage (or dash) and get out of the way. Then all your melee allies can focus fire with advantage.

Rogues are the best at going first.

SillyPopeNachos

2016-08-30, 02:11 PM

This guide lacks a multi-classing tactic for making Arcane Trickster a better DPR candidate than the Thief (at the cost of your 4th level spell known, 1 ability score increase, and 1d6 sneak attack damage). Two levels of Paladin gets you a fighting style, and you won't miss out on any spell slots (you still end up with 7 levels of spell slots on a full caster progression). This gives the option of using your spells for versatility, or smiting, and doing so with even a 1st-level spell slot more than makes up for the 1d6 sneak attack die lost (unless the fight drags on a long time, or you have a lot of encounters before a long rest. Considering the best 4th-level spell a Rogue gets is 1 Greater Invisibility per long rest (subject to counter spell and dispel magic, also concentration to maintain), regular invisibility seems like a fine substitute. This does require at least a 13 in strength (not the best investment otherwise), and at least a 13 in charisma (never a bad investment), so going half-elf seems to do this best. Thoughts?

Specter

2016-08-30, 02:21 PM

RulesJD

2016-08-30, 02:31 PM

Specter

2016-08-30, 03:03 PM

The problem is that you're almost universally better to just take a dip or two into Wizard due to the terribly spellcasting progression of AT. A three level Wiz dip gets you more and better spell casting for very little impact on Rogue abilities, especially considering how good Swashbuckler Rogues are.

Plus you can get Booming Blade way, way easy (Half-Elf/Elf Variant, about 3 different feats, etc).

What if a player doesn't want/can't multiclass, or doesn't have the INT for it, or wants another race, or wants stuff like Magical Ambush? If we're talking multi advantages, multi cons need to be considered also.

clem

2016-08-30, 03:10 PM

I think THE BEST INFILTRATOR OF ALL TIMES would actually be a multiclass of shadow way monk and rogue. Both are pretty front loaded in that regard. 2 level dip in rogue or 3-4 in monk will give other class plenty of boosts in regards of stealth and other things.

I've been considering such a build myself, going with a Wild Elf and Shadow Monk 6/Great Old One Warlock 2/Assassin 12.

The two level dip in warlock provides telepathy (useful for when scouting ahead), Devil's Sight, and one other invocation (probably Beast's Speech as it's thematic for an assassin of the Emerald Enclave). As Charisma is going to be a mere 13, spells will be of the no-save or utility variety: Friends, Prestidigitation, Hex, Comprehend Languages, Protection From Evil and Good.

So, for fun and profit, drop Darkness on a group of enemies, teleport among them and then begins the slice-and-dice (and punch).

My concern is level progression, my current thoughts:

1. rogue 1 (sneak attack, expertise)
2. rogue 2 (cunning action)
3. warlock 1 (telepathy, Hex, for an extra 1d6 damage per hit)
4. warlock 2 (invocations)
5. rogue 3 (assassin)
6. rogue 4 (+2 dex)
7. - 12. monk
13. - 20. rogue

It should be possible to obtain constant advantage on attacks, so I'm not sure how concerned I should be with getting ABI in a timely fashion. Would it be reasonable to delay it until after rogue3/warlock2/monk 3 to get to the meat of the build?

RulesJD

2016-08-30, 03:23 PM

I've been considering such a build myself, going with a Wild Elf and Shadow Monk 6/Great Old One Warlock 2/Assassin 12.

The two level dip in warlock provides telepathy (useful for when scouting ahead), Devil's Sight, and one other invocation (probably Beast's Speech as it's thematic for an assassin of the Emerald Enclave). As Charisma is going to be a mere 13, spells will be of the no-save or utility variety: Friends, Prestidigitation, Hex, Comprehend Languages, Protection From Evil and Good.

So, for fun and profit, drop Darkness on a group of enemies, teleport among them and then begins the slice-and-dice (and punch).

My concern is level progression, my current thoughts:

1. rogue 1 (sneak attack, expertise)
2. rogue 2 (cunning action)
3. warlock 1 (telepathy, Hex, for an extra 1d6 damage per hit)
4. warlock 2 (invocations)
5. rogue 3 (assassin)
6. rogue 4 (+2 dex)
7. - 12. monk
13. - 20. rogue

It should be possible to obtain constant advantage on attacks, so I'm not sure how concerned I should be with getting ABI in a timely fashion. Would it be reasonable to delay it until after rogue3/warlock2/monk 3 to get to the meat of the build?

Better build:

Ghostwise Halfling Shadow Monk/Rogue.

You get Telepathy naturally and can grant yourself Darkvision. Don't need the Devil's Sight because an orb of darkness is pretty much just as noticeable as a bright light in 'natural' darkness considering there will always be torches/enemies with darkvision.

Ideally take Shadow Monk up to level 11 for Cloak of Shadows. At that point you basically have at-will, non-concentration Invisibility. Combine that with Expertise + Pass Without Trace for Stealth and you're virtually impossible to detect. You also have Shadow Step, which is at-will teleport to go straight through even the smallest opening (key hole, under door, etc).

For Rogue I suppose this is one of the few builds where Assassin is actually the best choice, due to the almost guaranteed surprise rounds.

clem

2016-08-30, 03:29 PM

Better build:

Ghostwise Halfling Shadow Monk/Rogue.

You get Telepathy naturally and can grant yourself Darkvision. Don't need the Devil's Sight because an orb of darkness is pretty much just as noticeable as a bright light in 'natural' darkness considering there will always be torches/enemies with darkvision.

The reasoning behind Devil's Sight is that it allows one to see through magical darkness. It then puts the monk/rogue in the position on having advantage on everything within the sphere of darkness while forcing disadvantage on anything without blindsight or true sight.

You're right though, it would stand out during a stealth operation. It would purely be used for combat scenarios.

JellyPooga

2016-08-30, 05:38 PM

Better build.

Better build.

Rogue 10/Warlock 2/Moon Druid 2/Shadow Monk 6

Horrifically MAD and lacking in ASI's, but the addition of Druid opens up a slew of inconspicuos forms. Totally worth it for a strictly Infiltrator build.

Degwerks

2016-08-30, 10:13 PM

Just for the whole shadowy surprise theme, i'd like to try assassin rogue 8/shadow monk 6/shadow sorcerer 6.

Can burn spell points to get darkness you can see in and a shadow hound to flank with. Mainly a flavor build though.

Corran

2016-08-31, 03:48 AM

Better build.

Rogue 10/Warlock 2/Moon Druid 2/Shadow Monk 6

Horrifically MAD and lacking in ASI's, but the addition of Druid opens up a slew of inconspicuos forms. Totally worth it for a strictly Infiltrator build.
I like it, but it is missing alter self. Perhaps changeling for race? (Sometimes mask of many faces and actor is just too risky, and you want the certainty of alter self).

Just for the whole shadowy surprise theme, i'd like to try assassin rogue 8/shadow monk 6/shadow sorcerer 6.

Can burn spell points to get darkness you can see in and a shadow hound to flank with. Mainly a flavor build though.
Monk and sorcerer both rely on ki and sp respectively, and thus on having several levels of the class so you can function properly as a build. My suggestion is to pick just one of them two (so either be a shadow monl or a shadow sorc) and to drop the other entirely.

Shadow monk and assassin works well on various combinations from what I hear, such as monk17/rogue3 or monk14/rogue6, and shadow sorcerer 13 is the minimum I recommend for access to etherealness (and other useful spells along the way: shield, darkness*, misty step, hold person, invisibility, alter self, mirror image, haste/polymorph, counterspell, greater invisibility, dimension door, creation, disintegrate, etherealness), but sorcerer 14 is worth it for one more sp and shadow walk. Fill in the rest 6 levels as you please (rogue 3 mandatory for assassination). My personal favourite is paladin 2/ assassin 3/ warlock 1/ sh.sorc 14.

SharkForce

2016-08-31, 10:42 AM

actually, i don't think this particular gish build needs SP that badly. it isn't like you're gonna be spamming heighten spell or anything.

MrStabby

2016-08-31, 12:36 PM

The problem is that you're almost universally better to just take a dip or two into Wizard due to the terribly spellcasting progression of AT. A three level Wiz dip gets you more and better spell casting for very little impact on Rogue abilities, especially considering how good Swashbuckler Rogues are.

Plus you can get Booming Blade way, way easy (Half-Elf/Elf Variant, about 3 different feats, etc).

Yeah, but no reliable talent + counterspell this way, or at least not until crazy levels.

Citan

2016-08-31, 05:10 PM

Putting the Spellcasting feature of the Arcane Trickster in the red is absolute heresy: it's the only reason to play one! The AT spells open your repertoire in all of the game's pillars (combat, exploration and interaction) vastly, without the need for multiclassing. And Booming Blade with Sneak Attack is by now almost mandatory for optimizing damage.
+1000

The problem is that you're almost universally better to just take a dip or two into Wizard due to the terribly spellcasting progression of AT. A three level Wiz dip gets you more and better spell casting for very little impact on Rogue abilities, especially considering how good Swashbuckler Rogues are.

Plus you can get Booming Blade way, way easy (Half-Elf/Elf Variant, about 3 different feats, etc).
Putting the core feature of an archetype as red is the same as putting the whole archetype as red.
Also, what you say is only your own personal taste.

An AT specializing in spellcasting can become plain better than a Wizard in terms of spell reliability, because of 9th level feature. Sure, you get many less spells known and spell slots. In that regard, I agree that a multiclassing is plain necessary for someone who wants to really emphasize the "save or suck" aspect (AT 9 + Sorcerer/Wizard 11 FTW).

But even a plain AT can do wonders with this limited learning and spell slots, as long as you pick up the right spells. And you keep all the Rogue goodies without delay, from Invisible Mage Hand (sooo fun and versatile ;)) right up to Elusive (always great), Spell Thief (just negating the effect of any spell is great, even if you cannot learn it) and Stroke of Luck (not the best capstone, but far from the worse).

Meaning that...
- if you play a spellcasting focused character which plans on being multiclassed with a fullcaster, you will want to take the Arcane Trickster archetype and level it up to AT 9 anyways, because this will make you from "good" to "great" debuffer.
- if you play a really martial focused character, you will have low/dump casting stat, so multiclassing even 3 Wizard ("the one that can learn all") won't change your life because so many spells will be useless because of that. And you will have so few slots to play with anyways (incidentally, you would need to go Wizard 7 to reach AT's level. That is not dipping anymore)...

The two only drawbacks of AT imo are that...
1. They totally separated the subclass features from the class features (means: apart from the "Mage Hand as bonus action" meh ability, you don't get any feature to synergize with Sneak Attack, barring SCAG cantrips -which do not even help for Ranged Rogues-).

2. Considering the choice of schools, an AT that really dumps its INT (like, 12 or lower) is effectively renouncing to the enchantment school and a part of the illusion one, because even the 9th level feature won't be enough to make it reliable. So while a spellcasting focused AT gets a nice variety, a martial focused one has essentially self-buffs spells. But hey, same problem as with EK, and people still manage to get heaps of fun with...

So, hey, sure, the greatness of spellcasting for an AT comes much later than for a Wizard (until you are level 9, you will probably use spell slots mainly for buffs). But it should be that way. Because an AT is also a freaking Rogue, so compromise is as expected as necessary. ;)
And considering how many great spells a Rogue can use (even as a "stupid" one), considering you're supposed to have 6 encounters per day and usually don't last more than a minute, it cannot be viewed as lesser as any other archetype...

EDIT: After reviewing OP post, it seems clear to me that he didn't bother to really play an AT, and just analysed the abilities through the eyes of someone expecting a strong caster (like, comparing the spellcasting of a gish with the one of a full spellcaster, lol)... Of course he could only be disappointed.

Mandragola

2016-08-31, 06:59 PM

Citan

2016-09-01, 03:18 AM

In Person man's defence, he seems to rate all the subclass features as quite poor for rogues. So the red spellcasting stuff for ATs isn't out of context for the others.

In fact I kind of agree with that assessment. The problem is that few of the subclasses will make all that much difference in combat. It's mainly stuff that lets you scout better in various ways. There's nothing there that compares to, for example, giving your whole party resistance to magical damage, or a battlemaster's superiority dice. Swashbuckler and mastermind do change this. For some reason the majority of the rogue's combat abilities are built into the core class, while the sub-classes feature a lot of other stuff, like winning prizes for fancy dress and juggling weapons around for no reason.

I have to strongly disagree with the bolded part, while I have mixed feelings about the italic part.:smallbiggrin:

Few of the subclasses will make all that much difference in combat
Not sure where does that come from.
- Assassin is tricky to play but can change the whole flow of a fight from the start.
- Thief can use Healer's Kit with a bonus action so can fill up the role of emergency healer, as well as using caltraps and other things that hamper enemy movement, or use acid/fire/poison potions... Seems pretty good in combat, no? ;)
- Trickster has plenty of spells that make him much more resilient in fight, allowing him to take more risks. At higher level, if he's cunning enough, he can disable a powerful opponent before the fight start (hiding > Blindness, Hold Person, etc). At even higher level, he can be as effective as an Assassin in this aspect (Hide > Slow a bunch of enemies) in the big fight of the day.

Only Mastermind and Swashbuckler are more of a mixed bag: Masterming has "only" Help as a bonus action (but this is still very good, no? ;)) and Swashbuckler features are almost all geared to helping his own DPR only (Panache is nice but breaks when affected creature takes damage so it's a bit more nich than one would like).

The majority of the rogue's combat abilities are built into the core class, while the sub-classes feature a lot of other stuff.
First, I find this untrue for at least Arcane Trickster and Swashbuckler, and debatable for the others (confer point above).
Second... Isn't that normal? After all, Rogue is a martial first, and already get a load of great, no-resource combat features.
While I regret as you that some archetypes bring nearly no synergy with the core features, I don't see as how that is really a problem: class features bring enough to manage fights, so it should be nice that archetypes take care of everything else no? After all, a day shouldn't be made only of fighting... :)

Mandragola

2016-09-01, 03:47 AM

I only slightly disagree with you Citan. What I'm saying is that I think that the rogue's subclasses are on the whole a bit less significant in combat than those of other classes. Swashbuckler is a clear exception here, but for the most part the thing that any rogue will do in combat is sneak attack things, either at range or in melee using cunning action to disengage. The melee/range decision isn't dictated by the subclass and most rogues can happily do both.

Obviously they will sometimes do different things, but that's their default way of hurting monsters and most of the subclasses don't change that very much. Yes, they give you stuff like being able to drink a potion or maybe cast shield, but your tactics aren't all that dependent on your subclass.

To be fair, that's actually true of most classes - but not of all of them. Some subclasses change the role of a character rather more than the rogue's ones do. The two kinds of druid are probably the biggest difference within a single class but you also get stuff like lore and valour bards, war clerics compared to light clerics and so on.

Anyway it's not really important, but that's what I was talking about.

Citan

2016-09-01, 08:48 AM

RulesJD

2016-09-01, 09:15 AM

*snip*

An AT specializing in spellcasting can become plain better than a Wizard in terms of spell reliability, because of 9th level feature. *snip*

Lol, no.

Wizards by definition are going to have a higher spell save DC unless your AT is boosting Int at the expense of Dex (in which case why be a Rogue in the first place?).

The level 9 ability looks good in theory, but requires DM cooperation to implement to be even remotely worthwhile. If they follow the 'rules' for stealth RAW, it will basically mean 1 spell in the beginning of combat and that's it. Not bad, but pretty pathetic given that the Rogue will only be casting level 2 spells at that point, compared to level 5 spells for the Wizard.

So if you have a cooperative DM AND you're fighting pretty much nothing but Humanoids (Hold Person) then sure, AT at level 9 is okay.

Literally everywhere else, including most campaigns where level 9-10 is the ending point, Swashbuckler + Wizard levels trump.

Afrodactyl

2016-09-01, 12:19 PM

How do strength based rogues size up? I want to make a half orc thug, whose 'sneak attacks' are him going for low blows, throwing sand before attacking, etc.

Should I bother with rogue, or just go with a Battlemaster for fighting dirty?

RulesJD

2016-09-01, 12:22 PM

Yeah, but no reliable talent + counterspell this way, or at least not until crazy levels.

AT's don't get Counterspell until ridiculously high levels anyways. A Swash/Wiz (or Sorc) can get it WAAAAY earlier.

Lack of Reliable Talent is unfortunate, but in reality, the only thing I would really use it for is Stealth checks. Want to know what's better than Reliable Talent for that?

Invisibility from a 3 Wiz/Sorc dip.

EvilAnagram

2016-09-01, 01:56 PM

AT's don't get Counterspell until ridiculously high levels anyways. A Swash/Wiz (or Sorc) can get it WAAAAY earlier.

Lack of Reliable Talent is unfortunate, but in reality, the only thing I would really use it for is Stealth checks. Want to know what's better than Reliable Talent for that?

Invisibility from a 3 Wiz/Sorc dip.

I don't know. I've seen some pretty hilarious Invisibility flubs. The most reliable stealth I've seen has been through Pass Without a Trace.

Specter

2016-09-01, 02:26 PM

RulesJD

2016-09-01, 02:54 PM

Specter

2016-09-01, 03:06 PM

For starters I don't particularly like EKs because pretty much anything they can do is done better by Paladorcs. But I never said anything about Fighter + Wiz being better than EK. But I did say that about ATs. For starters, as a Swash, I'd definitely be doing Sorcerer instead of Wizard because I usually do 27 point buy and thus Swash + Wiz isn't practical.

Regardless, want to know what a Swash 4/Sorc (or Wiz) 5 gets at level 9? Haste, Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Hypnotic Pattern, etc. An AT at level 9 gets to make an enemy have disadvantage on a level 1-2 spell from an extremely limited selection. Better Sneak Attack for sure...except...

The Swash/Sorc can burn Metamagic to do a Quicken Booming Blade + Ready Action -> Booming Blade for an off-turn Sneak Attack. Oh and it gets +1 AC.

In a level 7-8'ish campaign I could see going AT. In anything more or less absolutely not.

Clearly it's not just 2d6. Even in your example you're leaving out the Expertise, Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, along with more HP. I'm not claiming what build is better, but choosing spells outside of your class means other choices left behind, that's the fact.

Quicken will work twice per long rest, so even if it's good it's still limited. Does it compare to +2d6 permanently? In my opinion no.

EK was just generalization from a similar comment. But Paladorcs don't get 28 AC without magic items, that much I can tell you.

PS: And even if you went Sorc/Wiz/whatever, going AT as a rgue gives you higher spell slots, which is another advantage. 10d6 Fireball instead of 8d6? Yes please.

RulesJD

2016-09-01, 03:43 PM

Clearly it's not just 2d6. Even in your example you're leaving out the Expertise, Uncanny Dodge and Evasion, along with more HP. I'm not claiming what build is better, but choosing spells outside of your class means other choices left behind, that's the fact.

Quicken will work twice per long rest, so even if it's good it's still limited. Does it compare to +2d6 permanently? In my opinion no.

EK was just generalization from a similar comment. But Paladorcs don't get 28 AC without magic items, that much I can tell you.

PS: And even if you went Sorc/Wiz/whatever, going AT as a rgue gives you higher spell slots, which is another advantage. 10d6 Fireball instead of 8d6? Yes please.

....have you actually played these classes before?? I'm having a hard time believing you have.

1. Paladorc AC = 18 Plate + 2 shield + 5 Shield spell + 2 Shield of Faith (later Haste) spell + 1 Defense Fighting Style.

Tada. 28 AC with no magic items. Can pull off that combo pretty much from level like 3-4 or something (basically whenever you get Plate armor).

2. In what world are you living in do ATs get higher spell slots than a Rogue/full caster????

Rogue's don't even see level 3 spell slots until level 13! That's insane. Considering how good Haste is for a Rogue, there's no comparison if you're talking access to high level spell slots...

Specter

2016-09-01, 04:03 PM

....have you actually played these classes before?? I'm having a hard time believing you have.

1. Paladorc AC = 18 Plate + 2 shield + 5 Shield spell + 2 Shield of Faith (later Haste) spell + 1 Defense Fighting Style.

Tada. 28 AC with no magic items. Can pull off that combo pretty much from level like 3-4 or something (basically whenever you get Plate armor).

2. In what world are you living in do ATs get higher spell slots than a Rogue/full caster????

Rogue's don't even see level 3 spell slots until level 13! That's insane. Considering how good Haste is for a Rogue, there's no comparison if you're talking access to high level spell slots...

1. I was assuming you weren't multiclassing into a spellcasting class from Paladin. Paladin+Orc, I was imagining. That was your typo, but whatever.

2. What I mean is if you are a Sorcerer 5/Arcane Trickster 6, for instance, you get 7th-level spell slots. Slots, not learned spells. That's a fact.

Citan

2016-09-01, 04:11 PM

The problem with those saying "AT/EK are worse than just multiclassing Wizard!", is that they're counting neither the class features they're leaving behind, nor the wait they make for ordinary class features.

Let's say you're a Swashbuckler who wants both Swash features and spells. So you want Wizard after level 3, right? Okay, but might as well take level 4, there's an ASI one level ahead. At level 5 we have Uncanny Dodge which will be similar to Shield, so let's multiclass there. And now you have the level 1 spells AT had 2 levels ago. Not so nice, is it? "Meh, at Swash 4/Wizard 3 I'll have level 2 spells." Kinda like AT, and they have 2 Sneak Attack dice more than you, and four expertised skills, and better HP.

Even if you're starting at level 20, you still miss an ASI and a capstone and dice and all else. I can do these comparisons at every level, forever.
So true...

Lol, no.

Wizards by definition are going to have a higher spell save DC unless your AT is boosting Int at the expense of Dex (in which case why be a Rogue in the first place?).

The level 9 ability looks good in theory, but requires DM cooperation to implement to be even remotely worthwhile. If they follow the 'rules' for stealth RAW, it will basically mean 1 spell in the beginning of combat and that's it. Not bad, but pretty pathetic given that the Rogue will only be casting level 2 spells at that point, compared to level 5 spells for the Wizard.

First of, why would they boost INT "at the expense of DEX"? Most classes get 5 ASI, Rogue gets more.
Classes such as Paladin or Ranger naturally depend on 2 stats, most casters bump their DEX to benefit more from dex-based buffs, some even go weapon-based builds... And nobody makes a fuss about it.
So void argument.

Second. "1 spell in the beginning of combat and that's it". That's the worse case available, but even then...
Assassin works like this, can do great damage to only one target (unless multiclass build) and nobody makes a fuss about it. Because it's enough to change the shape of the fight.
Well, it's the same with Arcane Trickster. Casting a Hold Person or Blindness on the most dangerous creature, whether a powerful physical warrior or a caster, can be as valuable or even more.
Later, you can drop a Slow to affect a whole group of enemies (did you experience being slowed as a Fighter or Wizard? It's VERY annoying).
You always compare an AT to a Wizard because you just never bothered trying to actually play an Arcane Trickster (aka understand and use its strengths). Otherwise, you would have already understood that the comparison was meaningless, because it's a whole different way to fight.

By the way about that...

....have you actually played these classes before?? I'm having a hard time believing you have.

1. Paladorc AC = 18 Plate + 2 shield + 5 Shield spell + 2 Shield of Faith (later Haste) spell + 1 Defense Fighting Style.

Tada. 28 AC with no magic items. Can pull off that combo pretty much from level like 3-4 or something (basically whenever you get Plate armor).

2. In what world are you living in do ATs get higher spell slots than a Rogue/full caster????

Rogue's don't even see level 3 spell slots until level 13! That's insane. Considering how good Haste is for a Rogue, there's no comparison if you're talking access to high level spell slots...
1. Yeah, you can reach this for one turn by consuming 2 spell slots along with one action and one reaction. Yay! o/
Incidentally, there are many other good spells that a Paladin could prefer use its Concentration on, but well, I won't argue there it's a matter of personal taste and situation after all.
But point is, base AC of Paladin is 21 at best. Everything else is situational (I agree that at high level you can consider that every fight is under Shield of Faith. But at lower than 8th character level, it's a pretty hard decision to make because you also need slots to smite and some spells are pretty useful too).

2. It was a direct answer to your "dipping 3 levels of Wizard gives better spellcasting than an Arcane Trickster". Which is totally ridiculous: you need at least 7 levels in Wizard to equal AT in spell slots. If you dip only 3 levels, you get 6 slots for the day, so how good it is for you to get potentially 30 spells in your book? You won't have max INT (per your own opinion) so you will be able to prepare between 5 and 8 spells. Meaning there is little chance you will prepare and use anything else than the usual 4-5 spells (Shield, Magic Missile, Mirror Image, etc).
So pretty meaningless argument here also. ;)

Degwerks

2016-09-02, 08:10 AM

Specter

2016-09-02, 08:51 AM

On your section 2.
I think you're meaning to say: "you get spell slots of a 7th level caster, as in a 4th level spell slot", not actual 7th level spell slots itself, which is @ 13th level full casting class area.

Yep, mind fart. 5th-level spell slots.

RulesJD

2016-09-02, 09:38 AM

1. I was assuming you weren't multiclassing into a spellcasting class from Paladin. Paladin+Orc, I was imagining. That was your typo, but whatever.

2. What I mean is if you are a Sorcerer 5/Arcane Trickster 6, for instance, you get 7th-level spell slots. Slots, not learned spells. That's a fact.

1. It really, really wasn't my typo. Paladorc is a well known (perhaps the best known) build. So well known that it literally has a nickname. Go type it into the Search box. Just easier to admit you were wrong btw.

2. Hahahahaha you really need to work on your "facts".

So let's take a Sorc 5/Arcane Trick 6. It will be equivalent to an AT 11.

Sorc/AT will have 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells known.

A straight AT will have....wait for it....1st and 2nd only

Now lets see how many spell slots each will have:
Sorc/AT:
1: 4
2: 3
3: 3
4: 1

AT:
1: 4
2: 3

By the time your straight AT gets access to 3rd level spells (level 13) the AT/Sorc could be AT 6/Sorc 7. Aka already working on 4th level spells known which means the best spell in the game for a Rogue, Greater Invisibility. A straight AT wont get to see that until level 19.

RulesJD

2016-09-02, 09:57 AM

*snip*

First of, why would they boost INT "at the expense of DEX"? Most classes get 5 ASI, Rogue gets more.
*snip*

Second. "1 spell in the beginning of combat and that's it". That's the worse case available, but even then...
Assassin works like this, can do great damage to only one target (unless multiclass build) and nobody makes a fuss about it. *snip*

Casting a Hold Person or Blindness on the most dangerous creature, whether a powerful physical warrior or a caster, can be as valuable or even more.

Later, you can drop a Slow to affect a whole group of enemies (did you experience being slowed as a Fighter or Wizard? It's VERY annoying).

You always compare an AT to a Wizard because you just never bothered trying to actually play an Arcane Trickster (aka understand and use its strengths). *snip*

By the way about that...

1. Yeah, you can reach this for one turn by consuming 2 spell slots along with one action and one reaction. Yay! o/
Incidentally, there are many other good spells that a Paladin could prefer use its Concentration on, *snip*

2. It was a direct answer to your "dipping 3 levels of Wizard gives better spellcasting than an Arcane Trickster". Which is totally ridiculous: you need at least 7 levels in Wizard to equal AT in spell slots. If you dip only 3 levels, you get 6 slots for the day, so how good it is for you to get potentially 30 spells in your book? You won't have max INT (per your own opinion) so you will be able to prepare between 5 and 8 spells. Meaning there is little chance you will prepare and use anything else than the usual 4-5 spells (Shield, Magic Missile, Mirror Image, etc).
*snip*

*deep breath*

1. Boosting Int - Because everyone looks at the level 9 AT ability and gets giddy over it without realizing how ineffective it is in gameplay due to Rogue ATs typically have very low spell save DCs. Especially when your BBEGs start getting magical resistance

2. Seriously? Have you actually played 5e? Every rips on the Assassin because it's so one dimension and even then, terrible at its job. Unless you have a DM willing to work with you, your Assassin will rarely if ever get to take full advantage (pun intended) of its ability to auto-crit. At best you'll get advantage on your first attacks if you take the Alert feat + roll well. Go actually search the forums to see how much fuss has been raised about it.

3. Hold Person and Blindness are both spell saves that most BBEGs will be exceptionally good at. Not to mention, Hold Person only works on Humanoids which by level 9 will rarely ever be the enemies you're fighting. If that's your fall back spells your AT is in for a rude awakening at higher levels.

4. Slow? Really? That's your big dropping of a spell? It's not a bad spell by any means, but by the time you even get access to it, there are significantly bigger spells going on to the point where Slow is pretty negligible.

5. Nope. Played a straight AT up to level 13 until the SCAG came out. I actually rank AT as the 2nd best Rogue subclass, but it is colossally behind the Swashbuckler. And it's also behind AT/Wiz multiclass. Good try though.

6. I would never, ever use that combination on my Paladins. I was pointing out the absurdity of saying that a Paladin couldn't get to 28 AC. Bless is always a better use of the spell/concentration slot.

Would help if you actually read the comment I was replying to.

7. Ritual Spell Casting alone makes it worth it (Find Familiar, Detect Magic, Leomund's Tiny Hut, etc), Wizard Subclass abilities (Divination Wizard especially although Bladesinger is now competitive for a Rogue), waaaaaay more spells available. A level 20 AT gets 13 spells known at best. A level 7 Wizard has potential for all Wizard spells up to level 4.

Oh, and the AT/Wizard gets them way, way, waaaaaay earlier. The higher level Rogue abilities are pretty terrible and the damage stops scaling well.

Specter

2016-09-02, 10:01 AM

1. It really, really wasn't my typo. Paladorc is a well known (perhaps the best known) build. So well known that it literally has a nickname. Go type it into the Search box. Just easier to admit you were wrong btw.

2. Hahahahaha you really need to work on your "facts".

So let's take a Sorc 5/Arcane Trick 6. It will be equivalent to an AT 11.

Sorc/AT will have 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells known.

A straight AT will have....wait for it....1st and 2nd only

Now lets see how many spell slots each will have:
Sorc/AT:
1: 4
2: 3
3: 3
4: 1

AT:
1: 4
2: 3

By the time your straight AT gets access to 3rd level spells (level 13) the AT/Sorc could be AT 6/Sorc 7. Aka already working on 4th level spells known which means the best spell in the game for a Rogue, Greater Invisibility. A straight AT wont get to see that until level 19.

1) I've always known it as Palasorc. But anyway, this confusion led me to believe it was something else, thus the point is moot.
2) That's not what I meant. What I meant was that even if you're a rogue who intends to multiclass into a spellcasting class, going Arcane Trickster instead of Swashbuckler, for instance, will give you higher-level slots and more spells learned, so that it's a better choice overall. This is the fact. I know full casters get more spells than 1/3 casters, that's not the point.

And these are circumstantial shortcuts you're taking to avoid the main point: Arcane Tricksters work, and multiclassing requires you to give up stuff for better spells. If you want to do it do it, but I will get low-level spells along with the strong rogue chassis in full, and will love it.
Let's use an elementary school example, I have 20 apples, and you have 13 apples and 7 oranges. If you say it's better to have 7 oranges over 7 apples, that's your opinion and you can prefer oranges as you like, but saying that by having 7 oranges you have more fruit than me means you can't think straight. This is why OP is absolutely wrong in rating Spellcasting as red, as you are absolutely wrong if you follow that line of thought. Peace out.

RulesJD

2016-09-02, 10:12 AM

1) I've always known it as Palasorc. But anyway, this confusion led me to believe it was something else, thus the point is moot.
2) That's not what I meant. What I meant was that even if you're a rogue who intends to multiclass into a spellcasting class, going Arcane Trickster instead of Swashbuckler, for instance, will give you higher-level slots and more spells learned, so that it's a better choice overall. This is the fact. I know full casters get more spells than 1/3 casters, that's not the point.

And these are circumstantial shortcuts you're taking to avoid the main point: Arcane Tricksters work, and multiclassing requires you to give up stuff for better spells. If you want to do it do it, but I will get low-level spells along with the strong rogue chassis in full, and will love it.
Let's use an elementary school example, I have 20 apples, and you have 13 apples and 7 oranges. If you say it's better to have 7 oranges over 7 apples, that's your opinion, but saying that by having 7 oranges you have more fruit than me means you can't think straight. This is why OP is absolutely wrong in rating Spellcasting as red, as you are absolutely wrong in following that line of thought. Peace out.

Except you're still wrong. The "best" Rogue build currently is a combination of Swash/Sorc/BM Fighter. It's much too complicated to get into here, but take it this way.

The problem is the terrible scaling of AT spell slots (1/3 is rough) + spells known. An AT has to wait until level 19 for the best spell in the game for a Rogue (Greater Invis). I've yet to see a campaign get that high. I have, however, seen plenty of games get up to level 15-16. 7 levels in Sorc grants far, far more than 7 levels of AT Rogue, so the benefit is a no-brainer. Heck 3 levels in Sorc gets you basically where you want to go (Invisibility, Blur, Shield, +1 AC, Metamagic) so you'll be all of 1-2d6 of sneak attack damage behind and that's it. Making Rogues wait 6 levels between spell slot upgrades is, at the end of the day, what kills the AT compared to Swash/Sorc MC.

As I said earlier, AT is the 2nd best Rogue subclass. It's just way, way, waaaaaay behind other options (Swash/Sorc, or AT/Wiz).

Specter

2016-09-02, 10:50 AM

Except you're still wrong. The "best" Rogue build currently is a combination of Swash/Sorc/BM Fighter. It's much too complicated to get into here, but take it this way.

The problem is the terrible scaling of AT spell slots (1/3 is rough) + spells known. An AT has to wait until level 19 for the best spell in the game for a Rogue (Greater Invis). I've yet to see a campaign get that high. I have, however, seen plenty of games get up to level 15-16. 7 levels in Sorc grants far, far more than 7 levels of AT Rogue, so the benefit is a no-brainer. Heck 3 levels in Sorc gets you basically where you want to go (Invisibility, Blur, Shield, +1 AC, Metamagic) so you'll be all of 1-2d6 of sneak attack damage behind and that's it. Making Rogues wait 6 levels between spell slot upgrades is, at the end of the day, what kills the AT compared to Swash/Sorc MC.

As I said earlier, AT is the 2nd best Rogue subclass. It's just way, way, waaaaaay behind other options (Swash/Sorc, or AT/Wiz).

I'm not saying AT is the best archetype, or that it's optimal. Hell, I've never been one to extensively number-crunch and multiclass in play. I'm saying that if you go full AT, the cantrips and spells will be good in and out of combat, regardless of what other players are casting.
The only reason I'm posting in this thread is because OP made a guide where the main AT feature is red, and that's a far stretch. Just by getting Booming Blade without multi or feats makes it purple at least. The fact that it improves your social (Disguise, Charm) and exploration abilities as well would make it at least black. And that's it. Even if I'm not too impressed by Swashbuckler (it's not so easy to single out targets in combat), I can agree that it would be better in many circumstances. And if I ever played AT again, I would grab Wizard's Portent, but would understand that delaying my progression for that sucks. I don't see how that's being 'wrong'.

DivisibleByZero

2016-09-02, 12:26 PM

1. It really, really wasn't my typo. Paladorc is a well known (perhaps the best known) build. So well known that it literally has a nickname. Go type it into the Search box. Just easier to admit you were wrong btw.

If does have a well known nickname.
It's called a Sorcadin.
When you call it a Paladorc it sounds like you're referencing an half orc Paladin.
Just easier to admit when you're wrong BTW.

MrStabby

2016-09-02, 01:47 PM

Coffee_Dragon

2016-09-03, 01:27 PM

There's also another nickname for it... "munchkin"

SharkForce

2016-09-03, 01:59 PM

i wouldn't say paladin/sorcerer is very munchkin. both classes have some pretty good stuff you're giving up on to multiclass into the other. you get a lot for your paladin out of multiclassing, but you are absolutely giving up some very nice paladin abilities that can be useful in their own way at higher levels.

Sigreid

2016-09-03, 02:25 PM

If does have a well known nickname.
It's called a Sorcadin.
When you call it a Paladorc it sounds like you're referencing an half orc Paladin.
Just easier to admit when you're wrong BTW.

While I don't read all threads I've seen Paladorc more often than Sorcadin. And I would naturally interpret them as being different put related things. I would assume Paladorc was a paladin with a side of sorcerer to kick up magical abilities a bit while Sorcadin would be a sorcerer with a dash of paladin for survivability.

EvilAnagram

2016-09-03, 03:45 PM

While I don't read all threads I've seen Paladorc more often than Sorcadin. And I would naturally interpret them as being different put related things. I would assume Paladorc was a paladin with a side of sorcerer to kick up magical abilities a bit while Sorcadin would be a sorcerer with a dash of paladin for survivability.

I always thought Paladork was just a rude name to call a paladin.

Coffee_Dragon

2016-09-03, 04:37 PM

"Paladorc" is also an anagram of "crapload" while "sorcadin" is an anagram of "so rancid".

Afrodactyl

2016-09-03, 05:24 PM

Just reposting because my previous post got lost within the whole 'Paladorc/Sorcadin' fiasco;

How do strength based rogues size up? Are they worth running?

EvilAnagram

2016-09-03, 05:48 PM

Just reposting because my previous post got lost within the whole 'Paladorc/Sorcadin' fiasco;

How do strength based rogues size up? Are they worth running?

If you have medium armor, they're fine. You're still limited to the same weapons a Dex rogue uses if you want to sneak attack, and you won't be able to sneak attack at range as easily, but the average damage output is comparable.

SharkForce

2016-09-03, 05:58 PM

If you have medium armor, they're fine. You're still limited to the same weapons a Dex rogue uses if you want to sneak attack, and you won't be able to sneak attack at range as easily, but the average damage output is comparable.

expanding upon this slightly, you'll probably want a fighter splash (1-3 levels usually, but more can also work) to go along with it for the medium armour and shield (you can get these with a feat, but fighter gets it to you sooner and arguably at lower cost), and the shield expert feat plus athletics expertise comes highly recommended. look for the iron scoundrel build for more details...

EvilAnagram

2016-09-03, 06:46 PM

expanding upon this slightly, you'll probably want a fighter splash (1-3 levels usually, but more can also work) to go along with it for the medium armour and shield (you can get these with a feat, but fighter gets it to you sooner and arguably at lower cost), and the shield expert feat plus athletics expertise comes highly recommended. look for the iron scoundrel build for more details...
I think it's a decent starting feat, especially since it comes with +1 to strength or dex. Perhaps the opportunity cost is a bit high, but I'm not so sure.

SharkForce

2016-09-03, 08:44 PM

I think it's a decent starting feat, especially since it comes with +1 to strength or dex. Perhaps the opportunity cost is a bit high, but I'm not so sure.

it isn't bad, but you probably don't get a starting feat (only variant humans do, after all) and even if you did, it would be better to start off by getting shield expert so you can start knocking things down for advantage.

if the dip didn't have any other synergy, the feat would be the better way to go perhaps. but fighter and rogue go together well, and will get your build online 3 levels earlier.

and if you want more feats (like medium armour master for better stealth and AC) or attributes (like constitution to help you stay alive in the front lines, or dexterity to actually make use of the extra potential AC from medium armour master), the fighter splash brings those online even earlier as well.

MeeposFire

2016-09-04, 12:13 AM

Str based rogue works very well with barbarian as well. Start as a barb for a nice set of saves and you can get extra attack along with the nice rogue abilities.

Citan

2016-09-04, 07:25 AM

*deep breath*

1. Boosting Int - Because everyone looks at the level 9 AT ability and gets giddy over it without realizing how ineffective it is in gameplay due to Rogue ATs typically have very low spell save DCs. Especially when your BBEGs start getting magical resistance

You should, again, really apply your own advice.
Why would Rogue increase INT "at the expense" of DEX?
Rogue can be SAD. AT is no MADer than a Paladin, and gets more ASI than it. Considering point-buy optimized on main stats, you need only 4 ASI to max both DEX and INT.
So, you're wrong. AT can have as good a DC as Wizard, except that they can also impose disadvantage.

2. Seriously? Have you actually played 5e? Every rips on the Assassin because it's so one dimension and even then, terrible at its job. Unless you have a DM willing to work with you, your Assassin will rarely if ever get to take full advantage (pun intended) of its ability to auto-crit. At best you'll get advantage on your first attacks if you take the Alert feat + roll well. Go actually search the forums to see how much fuss has been raised about it.

Yeah, and I saw on the forums how often people considered the Assassin archetype especially in multiclasses.

3. Hold Person and Blindness are both spell saves that most BBEGs will be exceptionally good at. Not to mention, Hold Person only works on Humanoids which by level 9 will rarely ever be the enemies you're fighting. If that's your fall back spells your AT is in for a rude awakening at higher levels.

4. Slow? Really? That's your big dropping of a spell? It's not a bad spell by any means, but by the time you even get access to it, there are significantly bigger spells going on to the point where Slow is pretty negligible.

Yeah, there are significantly bigger spells going for fullcasters, which can not, unless specific builds, unleash those as efficiently as an AT (in terms of spellcaster safety, positioning for efficiency, hiding to trigger disadvantage against a max DC spell).

5. Nope. Played a straight AT up to level 13 until the SCAG came out. I actually rank AT as the 2nd best Rogue subclass, but it is colossally behind the Swashbuckler. And it's also behind AT/Wiz multiclass. Good try though.

Oh, and the AT/Wizard gets them way, way, waaaaaay earlier. The higher level Rogue abilities are pretty terrible and the damage stops scaling well.
Well, sure, AT/Wizard is great, and will be better than pure AT for someone who wants to rely mainly on spells. I never argued on that (if you paid attention to some threads where I intervened, you would have noticed that I often propose the AT 9 + Wiz/Sorc 11 -or reverse- multiclass). The point is, that is not what you said in the first place. See below.

The problem is that you're almost universally better to just take a dip or two into Wizard due to the terribly spellcasting progression of AT. A three level Wiz dip gets you more and better spell casting for very little impact on Rogue abilities, especially considering how good Swashbuckler Rogues are.

That is the part that both me and another replied to, because your wording implies that a 3 level dip in Wizard on a Swashbuckler makes it plain better than a pure AT. It's plain wrong, no matter how you look at it. You can blind yourself all you want, that's what you said.
If you had said "a 7 level dip", then fine. Not that I agree that it's better, but as far as spell known and spell slots are, you would have been right.

Anyways. I'll stop on that now, I think everything that could be said as an argument both ways has been said. ;)

Afrodactyl

2016-09-04, 08:23 AM

Specter

2016-09-04, 09:28 AM

I've never seen or played a STRogue, but mechanically looking Grappler seems like the way to go. Advantage on attacks against the grapplee? And you have Athletics expertise? Yes please.

EvilAnagram

2016-09-04, 10:00 AM

I've never seen or played a STRogue, but mechanically looking Grappler seems like the way to go. Advantage on attacks against the grapplee? And you have Athletics expertise? Yes please.

Oh, gods yes. I saw a Barbarogue who would rage, grapple, and shank. That's all he would ever do in combat, and it was disturbingly good. Also, just disturbing.

SharkForce

2016-09-04, 10:10 AM

I've never seen or played a STRogue, but mechanically looking Grappler seems like the way to go. Advantage on attacks against the grapplee? And you have Athletics expertise? Yes please.

sadly, advantage on the grappled target is the only part of the feat that is even remotely interesting, and it isn't even that good really. the third benefit is actually the default rules (as in, everyone gains that benefit with or without the feat), and the second benefit, well... it is seldom worthwhile to restrain one enemy at the cost of equally controlling one ally.

also, you can get advantage for yourself *and* any other melee characters in the party with the shield expert shove, but you get to do it as a bonus action. and it is still an athletics check. so i wouldn't go for grappler.

now, i could see it being a bit more interesting on, say... a moon druid. because moon druids have access to a bunch of forms that can grapple as part of their regular attack. even then, probably not the greatest feat.

RulesJD

2016-09-06, 09:38 AM

RulesJD

2016-09-06, 09:41 AM

I've never seen or played a STRogue, but mechanically looking Grappler seems like the way to go. Advantage on attacks against the grapplee? And you have Athletics expertise? Yes please.

One thing to be careful of is that Str Rogue/Barbarians are heavvvily campaign dependent. For example, in Curse of Strahd, they were a fairly terrible build.

Why?

Because lots of undead creature types are immune to the Grappled/Prone/Restrained conditions.

Honestly though, the Grappler feat is pretty terrible once you get access to Extra Attack. At that point you can just Grapple + Shove prone for the same Advantage, but now also your (melee) team members also get advantage.

But if that's your goal, just go Wolf Barbarian.

Mrglee

2016-09-06, 10:17 AM

Search box -> Sorcadin

Results = 39

Search box -> Paladorc

Results = 217

You = wrong, as stated previously.

Sorcadin has been used across three editions. Paladorc isn't technically wrong either, but has only gained any sort of popularity in 5e.

DivisibleByZero

2016-09-06, 10:18 AM

Search box -> Sorcadin

Results = 39

Search box -> Paladorc

Results = 217

You = wrong, as stated previously.

Try Google's search box instead.
And congratulations. Read my sig.

RulesJD

2016-09-06, 10:21 AM

Try Google's search box instead.
And congratulations. Read my sig.

1. Don't see a signature to read, good job there.

2. You're really relying on OTHER editions to make this argument? No wonder you can't deal with being so clearly wrong.

That's like saying "Make a Dexterity Save" is not the correct term because "Reflex Save" was more popular due to prior editions (once filtering out non-D&D games). *clap clap*

Mrglee

2016-09-06, 10:42 AM

1. Don't see a signature to read, good job there.

2. You're really relying on OTHER editions to make this argument? No wonder you can't deal with being so clearly wrong.

That's like saying "Make a Dexterity Save" is not the correct term because "Reflex Save" was more popular due to prior editions (once filtering out non-D&D games). *clap clap*

Reflex is literally a different thing, Sorcadin is still MC Padadin/Sorcerer.

DivisibleByZero

2016-09-06, 12:20 PM

Sorcadin is still MC Padadin/Sorcerer.

And has been for well over a decade, coming up on two soon enough.
But you know, I'm wrong, and obviously calling it a Paladorc all of a freaking sudden makes more sense, even though that name invokes an incorrect mental image of an half orc Paladin.

I just find it both funny and sad that when I used the exact same terminology on him that he used on someone else, he got all butt hurt about it.
Even funnier that he doesn't even know *who* he said was wrong in the first place.

Xetheral

2016-09-06, 12:54 PM

Str based rogue works very well with barbarian as well. Start as a barb for a nice set of saves and you can get extra attack along with the nice rogue abilities.

Very much this. A grappling (without the Grappler feat) barbarian rogue can be terrifying in combat: hard to hurt, permanent advantage, and virtually impossible to escape without magic. Damage is decent (but not exceptional), and it simply never stops coming. Take Wolf Totem at Barbarian 3 and now you're effectively a mobile debuff applied with grapple checks.

Oh, gods yes. I saw a Barbarogue who would rage, grapple, and shank. That's all he would ever do in combat, and it was disturbingly good. Also, just disturbing.

My favorite is to throw Tavern Brawler into the mix, and pick a tool (e.g. a screwdriver) your DM is willing to treat as an improvised dagger. Now you're unarmored and unarmed. Take Expertise in Deception, dress like a peasant (tavern wench costume optional), and pretend to be a non-combatant (shrieking in terror helps) until you're in grappling range.

Corran

2016-09-06, 05:06 PM

Thanks for all the input on strength rogues!

I'm gonna start with a half orc fighter for two levels, then go into rogue for the rest, picking up shield master when I get an ASI. Using a shield and short sword.

If I find things a bit lacking, I'll be able to grab another level of fighter for champion or Battlemaster and possibly another ASI.
Just one more idea to think about (if you haven't already started playing ths character).
Start fighter, but go with a heavy armor build (grab fullplate as soon as you can get your hands on it). With defense fighting style and a shield, that's an AC of 21. After fighter 1, take 5 levels in rogue, for better sneak attack porogression and for uncanny dodge, and for quicker access to shield master. Then you can take 1 or 2 more fighter levels for action surge and a fighter archtype (if it were me, battlemaster hands down!!! for riposte, precision, and the unpopular and very controversial feinting). As for race, if you are not really sold on halforc, I would advise having a look at the earth genasi (pass without a trace will make up for the disadvantage on stealth checks when you really need to be stealthy). Ofc variant human is a great choice too. And since this strogue starts looking to me like a dedicated and sturdy (meaning that you are not relying on cunning action to jump around) melee guy, I would have a look at the sentinel feat too.

RulesJD

2016-09-08, 10:16 AM

And has been for well over a decade, coming up on two soon enough.
But you know, I'm wrong, and obviously calling it a Paladorc all of a freaking sudden makes more sense, even though that name invokes an incorrect mental image of an half orc Paladin.

I just find it both funny and sad that when I used the exact same terminology on him that he used on someone else, he got all butt hurt about it.
Even funnier that he doesn't even know *who* he said was wrong in the first place.

Actually, just thought of something.

Sorcadin = Paladin 2/Sorc 18 (primarily Sorcerer with some ability to hit hard once)

Paladorc = Paladin 6(7)/Sorc 14(13) (primarily Paladin with added utility of Sorc)

Paladorclock = Paladin 6/Warlock 3/Sorc 11 (my own personal favorite)

Afrodactyl

2016-09-08, 01:29 PM

-snipped for post length-

Starting fighter for the heavy armour and shield was very much the plan haha. I'm also debating defense or duelling for the fighting style. I was planning on rolling with a half orc, but I definitely won't disregard the variant human for starting with shieldmaster.

Thanks for the input!

-EDIT-

Going to go with variant human fighter for shield master, with soldier as the background. Starting with Intimidation, Athletics, Insight, Survival and Perception, and picking up Deception and thieves tools when I get Rogue levels.

odigity

2016-09-27, 09:59 AM

Person_Man, are you sure your Rogue Guide contains all the tips from your awesome Rogue tactics post? (The one you made before this guide.)

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18642086&postcount=8

R.Shackleford

2016-09-27, 01:35 PM

Starting fighter for the heavy armour and shield was very much the plan haha. I'm also debating defense or duelling for the fighting style. I was planning on rolling with a half orc, but I definitely won't disregard the variant human for starting with shieldmaster.

Thanks for the input!

-EDIT-

Going to go with variant human fighter for shield master, with soldier as the background. Starting with Intimidation, Athletics, Insight, Survival and Perception, and picking up Deception and thieves tools when I get Rogue levels.

Why would you Multiclass?

Vuman Rogue (Strogue) with moderately armored at 1 and shield master at 4 (levels 1 - 3 fly by) makes it where you never really need an ASI and can just take feats (or boost Con).

Medium Armor + Shield + 2 dex = 18 AC (good enough for levels 1 - 10).

Rapier (I prefer dagger) and shield works wonders.

SharkForce

2016-09-27, 04:04 PM

Why would you Multiclass?

Vuman Rogue (Strogue) with moderately armored at 1 and shield master at 4 (levels 1 - 3 fly by) makes it where you never really need an ASI and can just take feats (or boost Con).

Medium Armor + Shield + 2 dex = 18 AC (good enough for levels 1 - 10).

Rapier (I prefer dagger) and shield works wonders.

i think you would multiclass mostly because fighter 1-3 are all really strong anyways. i mean, you don't *have* to multiclass, but a fighting style + minor heal at level 1, action surge at level 2 (an extra chance at sneak attack, or make an attack and then ready to attack on another turn after hiding with a bonus action for advantage), archetype at 3 (battlemaster is great, with options for off-turn attacks and ways to make an attack hit that would have otherwise missed, but you could go EK or champion if you prefer).

but yeah, there is no real *need* to multiclass to fighter. but it really is a pretty good choice to do so, whether you're going strogue or not.

AmayaElls

2016-09-27, 04:10 PM

So I was just wondering since all the good stuff is gotten by lvl 7 how do people feel about multiclassing into Trickery cleric?

I like the way the Channel Divinity can give advantage, and offers a number of spells that will help you be a rogue. (Also Flavour-wise this is going to be a cleric of Mask)

dropbear8mybaby

2016-09-27, 04:18 PM

This guide is a perfect example of why I hate guides.

Theodoxus

2016-09-27, 04:33 PM

Saladinadorapal... whatever.

Everyone knows, Fey Knights rule, Sorcadins drool.

Paladin, Oath of the Ancients, Fey Pack Warlock trumps all. You get a Force Bow before Force Bows were cool, and use your prodigious Charisma instead of Dexterity to boot! It's the best Switchhitter in the game, better than a PF ranger even. Best of all, you're not sacrificing paladin levels for silly sorcerer levels. 2 levels of Warlock is all you'll ever need - though feel free to grab a third (or fourth if you really need that ASI) and never look back.

AmayaElls

2016-09-27, 04:40 PM

This guide is a perfect example of why I hate guides.

I'm curious, exactly what are your critiques of this guide? I am curious as to what your issue is with it (and ones like it) and how your opinion differs.

dropbear8mybaby

2016-09-27, 06:12 PM

I'm curious, exactly what are your critiques of this guide? I am curious as to what your issue is with it (and ones like it) and how your opinion differs.

They all end up being far too subjective and showcasing the writer's personal biases but because they're popular and the people who write them gather credibility for their opinions, they get used at the table to the detriment of the player and the group.

In other words, they serve a counter-productive effect to their intended purpose because the writers aren't very good at evaluating the system or presenting their opinions in an objective manner.

AmayaElls

2016-09-27, 06:24 PM

They all end up being far too subjective and showcasing the writer's personal biases but because they're popular and the people who write them gather credibility for their opinions, they get used at the table to the detriment of the player and the group.

In other words, they serve a counter-productive effect to their intended purpose because the writers aren't very good at evaluating the system or presenting their opinions in an objective manner.

Personally I feel that all guides are somewhat subjective and expect that. I dislike the ones that pretend to be fully objective. This poster I feel does not do that; he frequently uses phrases such as "In my experience", "I would do..." and other such qualifiers. He also explains his reasonings quite well I believe.

I have always taken guides with a grain of salt. I am a new player and I do come to these to get a feel for what the class might be like, however I don't ever use it to limit myself. I read a bard guide and then made a bard with her second highest stat as intelligence, not dumping it as the guide suggested, my warlock was going to use a longbow and a few people on the cleric guides thought I was taking way too many levels into thief. The books don't necessarily tell me how the abilities, spells and other factors tend to work in games, the guides however give me a little insight into how it works for some people.

R.Shackleford

2016-09-27, 06:24 PM

SharkForce

2016-09-27, 08:05 PM

there is good stuff in rogue beyond level 7. at level 11, you never roll badly on ability checks. disadvantage on them becomes completely meaningless, because no matter how badly you roll, you didn't roll badly. at level 15, you get a bonus save proficiency. at level 20, you get the capstone, which i've seen badmouthed but is actually quite good (it may as well read "once per short rest, whatever you're doing it works"). not to mention archetype abilities. assassin isn't great for the most part, but AT and thief from the core book have some amazing stuff. and of course, the whole way through your sneak attack damage increases.

this is not to say that leaving rogue at level 7 is a terrible idea by any means. if you want something else, go for it. plenty of classes synergise well with rogue. but i wouldn't say that there's nothing good after level 7.

Sigreid

2016-09-27, 10:30 PM

odigity

2016-09-28, 01:41 AM

This guide is a perfect example of why I hate guides.

I have but one question:

Would you rather live in a world *without* "Treantmonk’s Guide to Wizards, Being a god" (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IeOXWvbkmQ3nEyM2P3lS8TU4rsK6QJP0oH7HE_v67QY/edit)?

dropbear8mybaby

2016-09-28, 08:06 AM

I have but one question:

Would you rather live in a world *without* "Treantmonk’s Guide to Wizards, Being a god" (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IeOXWvbkmQ3nEyM2P3lS8TU4rsK6QJP0oH7HE_v67QY/edit)?

Absolutely.

twigg89

2016-09-28, 08:38 AM

SharkForce

2016-09-28, 10:40 AM

I'm pretty new to DnD and this build sounds interesting, would you mind explaining how it works?

you're a rogue with lots of strength. use a finesse weapon and, whether you attack with dexterity or not (finesse weapons allow but don't require you to use dexterity) you can get your sneak attack damage. expertise in athletics means that you have the modifier to knock down pretty much anything reliably, which means you can get advantage on your attacks against that thing. advantage on your attacks means you probably don't really have an urgent need for the highest attack bonus you could possibly get (though it's not a bad thing to have higher attack bonus either, of course), so you can choose to spend your ASIs elsewhere if you want.

personally, i prefer a few fighter levels mixed in, but YMMV.

Mandragola

2016-09-28, 11:13 AM

Personally I'd start off a shield mastery character as a vuman fighter. That way you get to rock up at level 1 with heavy armour on, a shield, and the feat. Then go to at least level 5 fighter, picking up battlemaster moves on the way. Specifically you want riposte, for that awesome reaction sneak attack.

After 5 (or possibly 6 for the ASI, though it's not a very MAD build) you switch to rogue. Expertise in athletics and sneak attack all the way. Swashbuckler is probably the way I'd play it, since they are very good at getting sneak attacks. Starting stats 16, 14, 14, 10, 12, 8.

It's basically a really dirty fighter. He knocks people over, threatens them, throws daggers and dodges around the place. Eventually you might want to go something like fighter 11/rogue 9 I think, though really any build with about 5 levels in each has merit.

Sounds fun to play I think.