White Raven Crusader Help

[LoyalPaladin]

Hello people of the playground! I just recently reworked my Paladin build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?385211-How-is-my-Paladin-build) slightly and wanted to include a couple levels of Crusader. I am pretty much useless when it comes to Martial Adepts, so I came to ask you. From what I was told, White Raven works somehow with your diplomacy.

What I would like to know, is what maneuvers and stances are best to take from the White Raven style? I'll be getting my first level in Crusader this coming week, so that will be at level 6. What would work best for me? But I'll also be taking them at later levels too (17-19).

Do you have any advice or wise words of wisdom for a poor Paladin who doesn't know how to effectively utilize this class?

I'm also still on the hunt for magic items that would best suit my role! (Offtank Smiter who likes to hit things really hard with his sword.)

[Flickerdart]

From what I was told, White Raven works somehow with your diplomacy.
White Raven's discipline skill is Diplomacy (IIRC this means you get it as a class skill but literally doesn't matter beyond that).


What I would like to know, is what maneuvers and stances are best to take from the White Raven style? I'll be getting my first level in Crusader this coming week, so that will be at level 6. What would work best for me? But I'll also be taking them at later levels too (17-19).
A character with 5 levels of something else and 1 level of Crusader has an initiator level of 3, and so can pick 2nd level maneuvers and stances. However, you still have a 1st level crusader's allotment of maneuvers and stances (5 and 1 respectively).

Of the early stances Martial Spirit is good but by level 6, 2 HP per hit isn't much. Iron Guard's Glare is probably the most useful of the lot. For maneuvers, Mountain Hammer is a staple. In fact, it's so good, you'll want to have two, so take Foehammer as well.

[Chronos]

Note that, as written, Martial Spirit doesn't have the "must be fighting a real opponent who can hurt you" requirement that all of the healing strikes do. So if your DM allows it as written, then you can use Martial Spirit to heal your whole party back up to full between combats, by just attacking a tree or something. Many DMs won't allow this, though, so ask before you take it.

[LoyalPaladin]

White Raven's discipline skill is Diplomacy (IIRC this means you get it as a class skill but literally doesn't matter beyond that).


A character with 5 levels of something else and 1 level of Crusader has an initiator level of 3, and so can pick 2nd level maneuvers and stances. However, you still have a 1st level crusader's allotment of maneuvers and stances (5 and 1 respectively).

Of the early stances Martial Spirit is good but by level 6, 2 HP per hit isn't much. Iron Guard's Glare is probably the most useful of the lot. For maneuvers, Mountain Hammer is a staple. In fact, it's so good, you'll want to have two, so take Foehammer as well.
Awesome. I'll take those... any recommendations for high level? How do initiator levels work?


Note that, as written, Martial Spirit doesn't have the "must be fighting a real opponent who can hurt you" requirement that all of the healing strikes do. So if your DM allows it as written, then you can use Martial Spirit to heal your whole party back up to full between combats, by just attacking a tree or something. Many DMs won't allow this, though, so ask before you take it.
Yeah, my DM would probably rule this a no go.

[Flickerdart]

How do initiator levels work?
Initiator levels work mostly like spellcaster levels if you're single-classed - a 5th level Crusader has access to 3rd level maneuvers, just like a 5th level wizard has 3rd level spells. The only difference is that you add +1 for every initiator class level and +1/2 for every other class level - so a Swordsage 1/Warblade 1 is actually a 2nd level initiator in both classes, and a Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Fighter 2 initiates as a 3rd level warblade or swordsage. This is mostly only useful for picking maneuvers, though - very few maneuvers change based on your IL.

Because you've taken your Crusader levels late, pay attention to the stances you gain. A lot of people complain that it's difficult to get the good stances because when you gain them doesn't line up with the level they are on the table, so you might be able to get some great stances early.

[LoyalPaladin]

Initiator levels work mostly like spellcaster levels if you're single-classed - a 5th level Crusader has access to 3rd level maneuvers, just like a 5th level wizard has 3rd level spells. The only difference is that you add +1 for every initiator class level and +1/2 for every other class level - so a Swordsage 1/Warblade 1 is actually a 2nd level initiator in both classes, and a Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Fighter 2 initiates as a 3rd level warblade or swordsage. This is mostly only useful for picking maneuvers, though - very few maneuvers change based on your IL.

Because you've taken your Crusader levels late, pay attention to the stances you gain. A lot of people complain that it's difficult to get the good stances because when you gain them doesn't line up with the level they are on the table, so you might be able to get some great stances early.
I will make sure to do that. Thanks Flickerdart. That should grant me all the knowledge I need to rock the Crusader. It's a pretty neat class. I'll play it 1-20 someday.

[Flickerdart]

I will make sure to do that. Thanks Flickerdart. That should grant me all the knowledge I need to rock the Crusader. It's a pretty neat class. I'll play it 1-20 someday.
Yeah, it's probably the most foolproof of the martial adepts, who are among the most foolproof classes in the game. Once you know which maneuvers you're allowed to pick, you pretty much can't go wrong with picking any of them.

Except Desert Wind sucks and Stone Dragon stances all make you stand in one place, which is dumb. Stick mostly to Devoted Spirit and White Raven though, and you'll be amazing.

[torrasque666]

Stone Dragon Strikes on the other hand, are pretty nice. Some of them grant limited debuffs(negating move/standard actions) while others cleave through DR, one of the biggest hurdles to a martial dealing damage.

[tyckspoon]

I'm also still on the hunt for magic items that would best suit my role! (Offtank Smiter who likes to hit things really hard with his sword.)

The Martial Discipline property is pretty decent - you select a discipline, and you get an attack bonus just for knowing a maneuver of that discipline and a greater bonus when you're actually using it. The nice thing is that stances count, so you can put the property on your sword for whatever discipline your default stance is and you'll pretty much always be getting that greater bonus. It's a +1 equivalent that gives a +3 to hit when using the correct discipline. You can feed it into Power Attack for decent returns if you're two-handing, or just enjoy the extra accuracy if you're having trouble hitting things normally.

Mighty Smiting (Magic Item Compendium) is definitely something you'll want - gives a bonus to hit/damage when you smite, and more importantly, gives another Smite/day. This is golden if you haven't managed to convince your DM to make Smites /encounter or something.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

One thing people here have yet to cover is the crusader's recovery mechanic. Personally, I love it, but I know not everyone does. The easiest way to make it work is to print out your readied maneuvers onto flash cards, shuffle said cards when combat starts, and draw however many are initially granted. On each following turn, draw and extra card. If you can't draw any more, shuffle all of your readied cards and start over.

[LoyalPaladin]

Mighty Smiting (Magic Item Compendium) is definitely something you'll want - gives a bonus to hit/damage when you smite, and more importantly, gives another Smite/day. This is golden if you haven't managed to convince your DM to make Smites /encounter or something.
I'll have to look this up when I get home to my compendium!

[Xerlith]

Initiator levels work mostly like spellcaster levels if you're single-classed - a 5th level Crusader has access to 3rd level maneuvers, just like a 5th level wizard has 3rd level spells. The only difference is that you add +1 for every initiator class level and +1/2 for every other class level - so a Swordsage 1/Warblade 1 is actually a 2nd level initiator in both classes, and a Swordsage 1/Warblade 1/Fighter 2 initiates as a 3rd level warblade or swordsage. This is mostly only useful for picking maneuvers, though - very few maneuvers change based on your IL.

Because you've taken your Crusader levels late, pay attention to the stances you gain. A lot of people complain that it's difficult to get the good stances because when you gain them doesn't line up with the level they are on the table, so you might be able to get some great stances early.

Actually that's wrong. Every base Initiator class has its own Initiator Level, so a Swordsage1/Warblade1 has an Initiator level of 1.5 for both classes. That said, a Warblade4/Crusader1 would have an Initiator Level of 4.5 (effectively 4) in Warblade and 3 (1/2 other levels + Crusader levels) in crusader.

[Flickerdart]

Actually that's wrong. Every base Initiator class has its own Initiator Level, so a Swordsage1/Warblade1 has an Initiator level of 1.5 for both classes. That said, a Warblade4/Crusader1 would have an Initiator Level of 4.5 (effectively 4) in Warblade and 3 (1/2 other levels + Crusader levels) in crusader.
Really? Huh. Could've sworn there was language to the effect of "initiator classes count for full."

[Darrin]

Really? Huh. Could've sworn there was language to the effect of "initiator classes count for full."

Prestige classes count as full initiator levels. So if you have a Swordsage 4/Warblade 2/Bloodclaw Master 2, those two Bloodclaw Master levels count as +2.0 IL for both the Swordsage and Warblade.

Swordsage IL = 4 + 1 (Warblade) + 2 (BCM) = 7
Warblade IL = 2 + 2 (Swordsage) + 2 (BCM) = 6

What ToB didn't make entirely clear was if all prestige classes work that way (which is what the book says on page 39), or just the prestige classes in ToB that have the "Maneuvers:" text.

[Xerlith]

It's on page 39 of ToB. Bit of a roundabout way of explaining, but the example leaves no space for doubt.