Optimizing a Sorcerer Dweomerkeeper

[Bad Wolf]

So I'm making a sorcerer in a high-op game, alongside a straight druid and Cleric. Just about anything is allowed, but Wishes will be twisted, enemies will be optimized, that sort of thing.

Thanks for any suggestions.

[Crake]

So I'm making a sorcerer in a high-op game, alongside a straight druid and Cleric. Just about anything is allowed, but Wishes will be twisted, enemies will be optimized, that sort of thing.

Thanks for any suggestions.

Care to give us some more info, that's all rather vague? Starting level would help to begin with.

[Bad Wolf]

Ah, sorry.

Starting at level 1, probably up to 20.

CN Shee (+6 CHA, -2 STR, -2 CON, 0 LA, third party, fey type)

Starting spells:
0: Prestidigitation, Acid Splash, Resistance, Daze

1: Silent Image, Cause Fear.

Allowed to start out with Magic Blooded template, rolled stats after adjustments are: 10 STR 12 CON 16 DEX 13 WIS 26 CHA 18 INT.

1st feat: Scribe Scroll

The only things I'm absolutely keeping are the race, class, and familiar. Everything else is still undecided.

[dextercorvia]

For a Sorcerer, I really like spending my feats on additional spells known. There are several ways to do this from low - high op. Based on the title, I'll give you my best. I call it the Necrotic Apprentice trick. Basically you take Apprentice Spellcaster and Mother Cyst, then use the extra swaps from Apprentice Spellcaster to change the Cyst spells into spells you actually want. If Dragon Compendium is on the table, you can also benefit from a Bloodline Feat.

The full trick is in my sig.

[Rebel7284]

Ah, sorry.
10 STR 12 CON 13 WIS 26 CHA 18 INT.


Some observations and suggestions:

- You are missing a Dex score.

- You probably don't need the 18 in INT. If you can, I would boost your Dex and/or Con.

- You mentioned Dweomerkeeper, how will you qualify for the ability to cast divine spells? Cloistered Cleric dip? Alternate Spell Source?

- Wings of Cover is a spell I always recommend.

- You can aim to enter Shadowcraft Mage for more flexibility at later levels. It IS a bit feat intensive though.

- Versatile Spellcaster is a nice feat.

- Sandshaper dip is often recommended for lots of free spells known, it loses a caster level though.

- If you want to focus on metamagic, you may be better of getting rid of your familiar for Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature and getting the familiar back with obtain familiar feat. It becomes a stronger familiar that way (tied to your caster level, not your class level.)

[Bad Wolf]

For a Sorcerer, I really like spending my feats on additional spells known. There are several ways to do this from low - high op. Based on the title, I'll give you my best. I call it the Necrotic Apprentice trick. Basically you take Apprentice Spellcaster and Mother Cyst, then use the extra swaps from Apprentice Spellcaster to change the Cyst spells into spells you actually want. If Dragon Compendium is on the table, you can also benefit from a Bloodline Feat.

The full trick is in my sig.

Oh, that. I'll do that if i have two spare feats to get Knowledge (religion) for the requirements, might be a bit tough though. Thanks.


Some observations and suggestions:

- You are missing a Dex score.

- You probably don't need the 18 in INT. If you can, I would boost your Dex and/or Con.

- You mentioned Dweomerkeeper, how will you qualify for the ability to cast divine spells? Cloistered Cleric dip? Alternate Spell Source?

- Wings of Cover is a spell I always recommend.

- You can aim to enter Shadowcraft Mage for more flexibility at later levels. It IS a bit feat intensive though.

- Versatile Spellcaster is a nice feat.

- Sandshaper dip is often recommended for lots of free spells known, it loses a caster level though.

- If you want to focus on metamagic, you may be better of getting rid of your familiar for Metamagic Specialist alternate class feature and getting the familiar back with obtain familiar feat. It becomes a stronger familiar that way (tied to your caster level, not your class level.)

1) Thanks, fixed.
2) I rolled for them, didn't use point buy, so unfortunately i cant change it.
3) Domain Access, 5th level Sorcerer ACF. As domains count as divine spells, it gets me the magic domain, and the ability to cast divine spells at the same time. Lose a few spells, but hopefully i have space to squeeze in the Necrotic Apprentice trick.
4) Thanks for the suggestion, I'll take a look at it.
5) Shadowcraft Mage is a gnome-only class...
6) Im planning on taking it, if i have space for it.
7)Hmm...haven't seen that before, where is it?
8) guess I could do that, if i have space for a feat.

[dextercorvia]

Oh, that. I'll do that if i have two spare feats to get Knowledge (religion) for the requirements, might be a bit tough though. Thanks.


One of the benefits of the Apprentice Spellcaster feat is that you can add on Knowledge skill of your choice to your list of class skills.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

3) Domain Access, 5th level Sorcerer ACF. As domains count as divine spells, it gets me the magic domain, and the ability to cast divine spells at the same time. Lose a few spells, but hopefully i have space to squeeze in the Necrotic Apprentice trick.

Not so, every spell a Sorcerer casts is an arcane spell ("A sorcerer casts arcane spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer)..." PHB) unless a specific exception to that is made. Domain Access makes no such exception. The general rule regarding non-Clerics gaining domains can be found on page 20 of Complete Divine: "...such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters." The domain access ACF gives you access to that domain for purposes of the Magic domain prerequisite, but it does not help you fulfill the divine spellcasting prerequisite.


In any case, get an Ancestral Relic Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4). Ideally you should make it an Elvencraft (RotW) (composite) Longbow, which counts as a quarterstaff and a longbow. You'll need to pay for masterwork three times, but it should also be able to hold three wand chambers from Dungeonscape. That can hold three wands, the Rules Compendium says wands take the same action to activate as the contained spell's casting time, and as long as you're holding that you're also wielding all three wands and can activate them whenever needed. Favorite choices include Wings of Cover from Races of the Dragon, Command Undead, and Benign Transposition in Spell Compendium.

Get Incense of Consecration (BoED) and you can light it for only as long as you need it, then extinguish it to preserve its remaining duration. Any time you're in the area of a consecrate spell you can meditate to modify your relic, which can include replacing existing properties with different ones. If you replace one of the spells with a different spell of equal level, the item's cost changes by 0 gp, so the amount of time you need to meditate is multiplied by zero. Basically, you light the incense, then immediately extinguish it, spending zero time in between to swap out one of its spells for exactly the spell you need right now. It's not extremely useful in combat, but it gives you an unmatched level of versatility outside of combat. Note that the remaining daily uses of a given spell remains even if you swap it to a different one. You can even put non-Sorcerer spells on that and make a Use Magic Device check when you attune to it each day to be able to cast those as though they were on your class spell list.

[Rebel7284]

Shadowcraft Mage has an adaptation section where it is stated that the prestige class can be adoped to any cabal of illusionists.
Sandshaper is in Sandstorm.

[Demidos]

Another wings spell, Wings of Flurry. And Draconic Polymorph.
Those plus Wings of Cover and Greater Mirror Image should keep you pretty on par with most things.

[Bad Wolf]

Not so, every spell a Sorcerer casts is an arcane spell ("A sorcerer casts arcane spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm#sorcerer)..." PHB) unless a specific exception to that is made. Domain Access makes no such exception. The general rule regarding non-Clerics gaining domains can be found on page 20 of Complete Divine: "...such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters." The domain access ACF gives you access to that domain for purposes of the Magic domain prerequisite, but it does not help you fulfill the divine spellcasting prerequisite.


In any case, get an Ancestral Relic Runestaff (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?267805-Sorcerer-Handbook#4). Ideally you should make it an Elvencraft (RotW) (composite) Longbow, which counts as a quarterstaff and a longbow. You'll need to pay for masterwork three times, but it should also be able to hold three wand chambers from Dungeonscape. That can hold three wands, the Rules Compendium says wands take the same action to activate as the contained spell's casting time, and as long as you're holding that you're also wielding all three wands and can activate them whenever needed. Favorite choices include Wings of Cover from Races of the Dragon, Command Undead, and Benign Transposition in Spell Compendium.

Get Incense of Consecration (BoED) and you can light it for only as long as you need it, then extinguish it to preserve its remaining duration. Any time you're in the area of a consecrate spell you can meditate to modify your relic, which can include replacing existing properties with different ones. If you replace one of the spells with a different spell of equal level, the item's cost changes by 0 gp, so the amount of time you need to meditate is multiplied by zero. Basically, you light the incense, then immediately extinguish it, spending zero time in between to swap out one of its spells for exactly the spell you need right now. It's not extremely useful in combat, but it gives you an unmatched level of versatility outside of combat. Note that the remaining daily uses of a given spell remains even if you swap it to a different one. You can even put non-Sorcerer spells on that and make a Use Magic Device check when you attune to it each day to be able to cast those as though they were on your class spell list.

Thanks for the extensive post but I'm CN, so I can't take exalted feats.

Guess I'll just dip one level in cleric for divine casting then (why can't sorcerers ever have nice things?).


Another wings spell, Wings of Flurry. And Draconic Polymorph.
Those plus Wings of Cover and Greater Mirror Image should keep you pretty on par with most things.

I'm sensing a distinct dragon theme here...thanks for the spells, I'm sure they'll come in handy.

[Optimator]

Ancestral Relic isn't an Exalted feat, I don't think.

[Gün]

Can arcane disciple or southern magician help for entering dweomerkeeper without a dip?

[Zaq]

Ancestral Relic isn't an Exalted feat, I don't think.

It's not Exalted, but it does require a Good alignment.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Ancestral Relic isn't an Exalted feat, I don't think.

No, but it does require a good alignment for some reason.


Can arcane disciple or southern magician help for entering dweomerkeeper without a dip?

Not arcane disciple, as they'll still be cast as arcane spells. Southern magician allows your spells to count as divine spells though, so that's a possibility, but it's extremely cheesy.

[ninjamaster1991]

A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list.

A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list.

A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list

A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list.
Just saying.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Just saying.

It doesn't matter what list the spells are drawn from, a sorcerer still casts arcane spells. Here's more relevant rules text from Complete Divine regarding non-clerics gaining access to domain spells: "...such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters."

[ninjamaster1991]

It doesn't matter what list the spells are drawn from, a sorcerer still casts arcane spells. Here's more relevant rules text from Complete Divine regarding non-clerics gaining access to domain spells: "...such spells are considered arcane spells when cast by arcane spellcasters."

Yeah, I know that; my quote even says they cast arcane spells. What it suggests, however, is that Sorcerers aren't completely limited to Sor/Wiz spells. How would you like to put Guidance of the Avatar and Glibness on the same Bluff check?