Experience playing an Assassin/Shadow Monk

[DragonSinged]

Hey all!
So a friend of mine has been running a 5E game for our group lately, and I've been playing a Rogue, Assassin archetype and have just multiclassed into Monk with the intention of going Way of Shadow. I thought I'd talk about my experience with the character and how it's been actually playing at the table, pros and cons, things like that, maybe answer any questions.
I should probably also clarify that my GM has allowed the Monks unarmed strikes and Martial Arts weapons to count as Finesse, so if your GM is a stickler about that, YMMV.

My group rolls our stats, and I did pretty decently (although shockingly not the best in the group), so I'm running, after racial bonuses (Half-Orc)

STR 11
DEX 16
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 16
CHA 12

Pretty good, overall.
I went with the Criminal background.
We started at level 2, and I started out with Rogue 2. I didn't do this for any optimization reasons for the build, I actually hadn't thought about a build at all at this point.

So right off the bat, let me tell you, Rogue 2 is fantastic. Very fun to play. Ability by ability here

Expertise - I took Deception and Stealth, and I have used both many times, Stealth especially. With Deception, double proficiency counteracts my relatively low charisma score.

Sneak attack I'll talk about with some examples later.

Thieves' Cant looks like a mostly pointless fluff ability on the surface, and I've seen other people/guides describe it as such, and I could see how in many games that could be the case, but I've found it to be somewhat useful. My GM appreciates it when players attempt to roleplay creatively, so one of the first things I do when we go into any town or city is use the Thieves' Cant in conjunction with my Criminal Contact granted by the Criminal background to establish a contact in the city, which is usually a treasure trove for information on locals, quests, fences, etc. Obviously this is all roleplay stuff that you could do without any class abilities telling you you're allowed, but my GM enjoys that I'm using class abilities for RP purposes, and so I think I end up getting more useful and reliable information than I might otherwise... as long as I don't push it too far.

Cunning Action - holy wow is this ability amazing. This one ability allows me to be the fastest member of the party (and faster than any enemy we've encountered so far), or instead run up, stab someone, and then run away without repercussion, all on the same turn. The Hide as a bonus action I actually haven't used very much yet, as most of the fights we've had haven't had a lot of opportunity to do so once the blades are drawn - or I haven't been able to think of a way to do so.


So we played a couple sessions through at 2, went into some little dungeon to retrieve a strange magic book for a wizard, basically an intro to 5E adventure. After that, he levelled us up to 3, and I took the Assassin Archetype.
I had already decided by now that I wanted to go Assassin/Shadow Monk, and the decision on when to switch over to Monk was a really, really hard one. On the one hand, the sooner I got into Monk, the sooner I'd get to level 6, which is basically the whole reason to go Shadow Monk. On the other hand, I could have Assassinate right now and that would be useful through all the levels of Monk. If I were starting right at level 8, I'd take Rogue2/Monk6, and wait a level for Assassinate, but since I've got to play through all those levels, I went to Rogue 3 first, and that has proven to be the right decision.

Assassinate is an ability that sounds both great and like a potential let down, it seems. On the one hand oh man the damage, but on the other hand, it's only on that first round that the ability does anything, and then, only if you have the surprise, so potentially it could do nothing at all. So far though, I've been able to use it every battle, and usually to take out at least one enemy on the first turn. The trick is that you have to really think out how you start the battle very carefully, to make sure you get that surprise.

One example - we had to get onto a small ship that had 4 visible orcs patrolling the deck. However, time was on our side, so I made some preparations - muffling weapons, dressing in dark clothing, painting my face, and then had my party hide nearby while I entered the water up the shore from the boat with a reed to breathe through, then swam up to the boat with a stealth check. My GM ruled that if I killed an enemy on the surprise round in one hit, and no other enemies saw, I could attempt another stealth check to do it silently without being noticed. Unfortunately, while assassinate did kill the first orc in one hit (amazing ability) I failed the stealth check. However, I did roll highest on the initiative, ran over, and one hit another orc due to having advantage on the attack from assassinate, giving me sneak attack damage. 2 out of 4 dead before anyone else has acted - pretty cool.

By the by, Assassinate damage (at level 3) for me with a rapier and savage attacks from Half Orc ends up as
3d8+4d6+3. Not bad at all for level 3.

On the other hand, if I get stuck in a situation where I don't have advantage or an adjacent ally or anything, I'm sitting poking at an enemy with my rapier for a piddly 1d8+3 damage - a very undesirable situation, and one to be avoided at all costs.

In another example, the advantage from Assassinate negated the long range disadvantage from firing my crossbow from 300 feet away, allowing me to take out the leader of a group of cultists from across a town square in one hit before anyone knew I was there. Love this ability.


Anyways, we hit level 3, travelled with a caravan to a port town, I established contacts as mentioned before with Thieves' Cant and Criminal Contact, found out about some weird disappearances in the town, had the previously mentioned fights with orcs and cultists, broke some necromantic brazier that townsfolk were being mind controlled into sacrificing themselves into, and ended up in the underworld. Ding! Level 4!

Level 4 was another really tough decision. ASI/Feat or finally get started on Monk? I decided that as much as I really wanted that feat, I wanted Shadow Step more, so Monk 1 it is.

Here's where this build kinda falls apart a bit. Monk 1 gets you very little at this point in the game. In fact, as I was wearing studded leather armour and using a shield, in order to gain any benefit at all from Monk 1 I'm actually losing 1 AC when I take off the armour and shield, going from 17 down to 16, which is painful. Like, really, losing AC by gaining a level is not cool. In exchange for that, though, (once I pick up a quarterstaff) I'll be able to make a bonus action d4 attack in combat in the event that I miss with my main attack, as a backup method of delivering sneak attack damage. Not terrible, but really not great, especially as I already have excellent uses for my bonus action.
That's where this build is painful. Monk 1-3 barely feel (to me, at least) like I'm gaining anything at all. That means that levels 4-6 of this character, which are usually pretty meaty levels, are actually pretty lightweight.

As mentioned, at monk 1 I'm basically losing 1 AC for a potential bonus action d4 attack, and that's it.

At Monk 2 I'll gain 10 feet of speed, which is OK but not necessary with my bonus action dash, and flurry of blows, which is again an OK backup in case I miss with my primary attack. Again, ok gains but nothing fantastic. Patient defense and step of the wind, I have other, better bonus action options to use instead of that don't take Ki.

Monk 3, same old same old - deflect missiles is OK, with some neat flavour if you manage to reduce the damage to 0, and Shadow Arts has some versatility, at the cost of being pricey in Ki points.
Well, actually, pass without trace is pretty dang cool, I hadn't actually read that one before now, so maybe Monk 3 won't be so bad after all.

Monk 4 is pretty cool, because not only do you get an ASI, but you also gain slow fall at that same level. Most Martial classes don't gain anything other than an ASI at 4, so that's a bonus.

From there Monk 5 and 6 are both fantastic levels, and then after that I'm planning to hit Rogue 4 to finally get that ASI.

From there, I haven't been able to decide whether (assuming the game is still running at that point) I want to keep going in Monk to aim for that amazing (basically) at-will invisibility at 11, with some extra ki along the way, or keep going in Rogue to get uncanny dodge, more expertise, and of course more sweet sneak attack damage. Tough choice.

Anyways, I guess that's all I have to say on the topic for now, but let me know what you think, I'd love your opinions and would be happy to answer questions. I'm also curious if people would like me to keep this thread updated with progress on how the game goes and how the build works out from time to time.

Thanks!

[odigity]

Thanks for the detailed report. Lots of people have discussed the potential of Assassin Rogue / Shadow Monk, but I haven't seen a detailed field report.

I definitely think it's not worth hitting level 7 in both because of the redundant Evasion. I think Monk gives you more past level 6 than Rogue, but it probably still comes down more to player preference.

Also, don't underestimate the value of Patient Defense. Sometimes it's hard to get away (can't disengage and dash with the same bonus action), and sometimes you don't want to get away (miss out on AoOs, can't help backup your ally if they're overwhelmed). Giving disadvantage to all enemies while staying in their face is very powerful. If you've already got your sneak sttack in, why not dodge instead of disengage and tempt your foes into wasting their attacks on you? I only started experimenting with this last level, and I'm really liking the results. (I'm a Warlock 1 / Monk 4 -- was thinking about dipping Assassin, too, but I like Monk enough so far that I might just stick with it.)

[DragonSinged]

I know what you mean about the redundant evasion. It's a painful consequence, for sure. But it seems like the 2 logical level breaks would be either Monk 11/Rogue 9 which has the advantages of at will invisibility, 20 ft unarmored movement that can run up walls and across liquids, 11 Ki, and d8 unarmored damage, while still keeping 5d6 sneak attack damage, 2 ASI's, Uncanny Dodge, and the bonus Expertise from Rogue.

The other logical level break would be Monk 6/Rogue 14, which loses the above Monk bonuses (unarmed goes down to d6, movement drops by 5ft, lose 5 Ki) in exchange for not having redundant Evasion, and gaining 2d6 more sneak attack damage, 1 more ASI, Reliable Talent (which I can't say I'm actually impressed with), Blindsense 10ft (which is ok).... aaand that's really about it.
Looking at the 2, I've gotta say Monk 11/Rogue 9 looks like the better deal of the 2, but I'd love to hear arguments against it, or for other arrangements.


Regarding Patient Defense, after thinking about it, I think you're right. The Ki cost for using it is a little painful at lower levels, but you're correct in that there are definitely situations where a bonus action Dodge would be very beneficial during a fight - thanks for pointing that out so I didn't just dismiss the ability.

[Naanomi]

I'm not usually a fan of the Warlock dip for rogues but... It ends up seeming very 'ninja' feeling to do Rogue 11/Monk 6/Warlock 3

Tome gives you Guidance, Devil's Sight, then maybe.... Book for Find Familiar? Or Armor of Shadows if you skimped on wisdom?

[Mandragola]

Cool idea going half orc assassin. Lots of use for your extra damage dice on a crit. Glad you're enjoying it. How come you have shield proficiency?

I'm playing a wood elf shadow monk at the moment at level 4. I'm planning on switching to assassin either for level 7 or 9, and really struggling to decide if I'm honest. I haven't played all that much because I DMed the starter set for our group and then we've started Hotdq with someone else DMing, and all the encounters levelled up - meaning we're facing entirely different stuff.

Pass without trace is amazing. I managed to use it to get 36 terrified villagers, plus our party, to sneak through a village that was being attacked by an army of <spoiler deleted>. Since you've don't fail ability checks on a 1 this means you have de-facto invisibility, so long as you're vaguely sensible. Nobody will ever know you were there. I'm not sure I'll even bother putting expertise into stealth when I eventually switch to rogue.

I have to say I think wotc have done a great job with monks in this edition. They are just fun! I can see them potentially being a massive pain for DMs once they start running up walls - or teleporting up them at night. Basically a level 1 monk is a lot like a dual-wield fighter, with martial arts replacing the fighting style. Then as you level you keep getting new tricks that you can do. I've found a bonus action dodge seriously useful a few times now.

[DragonSinged]

Naanomi - I've thought about the warlock dip, it's tempting but also I'm not sure if I want to complicate things that much? I don't know, I'm having enough trouble deciding on when to break between Monk and Rogue as it is, I don't know if I want to give up even more features just for Devil's Sight, which is really the main draw for me. It's a cool build, but I don't think it's for me.

Mandragola - my group is still learning 5E, and I didn't realize Shield Proficiency was a thing. :smalleek: my mistake! I feel kinda bad learning that right when I'm ditching the shield.
You got 36+ people with Pass Without Trace? That's pretty awesome. Actually, that raises a question for me - Let's say you cast PWT on you and some other folks, and then some of them move outside of the 30 feet from you, do they keep PWT? I could see that going either way.
Half-orc has been fun. I've been playing him as a character that uses disguises a lot - almost all the time, and almost always disguised as a human, but once he gets into combat the Orc side comes out.


So after looking at the 2 level splits a bit more, Monk 11/Rogue 9 seems like more of a utility build, with the invisibility, running up walls and across water with an extra 5 feet, more Ki, and not needing to carry a weapon. However, the movement abilities are redundant if it's dark because teleporting yeah woo.

Rogue 14/Monk 6 is more combat focused with the extra sneak attack dice and ASI. However, in the party we've got a Moon Druid, a Hunter Ranger, and a Tempest domain Cleric. We might also have a Warlock join us, so our group is probably covered for DPR? I mean, more damage is always nice, and 3d8 + 14d6v + dex for Assassinate is really, really tempting, but 10d6 instead of 14 is still pretty good, so I think I'm leaning towards M11/R9.

This is all pretty theoretical, though, as our group doesn't have the best track record of making it to higher levels.
I do worry about, in the theoretical sense, being outpaced damage-wise, however. I don't know what kind of numbers the rest of the group will be putting out there, and it would be kind of sad to be the Assassin that does the least killing.

I don't know!:smalleek:

[MOLOKH]

While toying with Monk builds I found out that Rogue/Monk isn't as good a combo, bacause apparently you can't Sneak Attack with unarmed strikes or a quarterstaff - SA only works with finesse and ranged weapons, which US and the staff aren't. Most DMs could probably rule that it still works thanks to Martial Arts, but RAW it doesn't. A 3 level dip in Warlock gives the Darkness + Devil's Sight combo while steel retaining the mystical ninja feel.

[Malifice]

. In exchange for that, though, (once I pick up a quarterstaff) I'll be able to make a bonus action d4 attack in combat in the event that I miss with my main attack, as a backup method of delivering sneak attack damage. Not terrible, but really not great, especially as I already have excellent uses for my bonus action.

Barring a house rule from your DM, neither your unarmed attacks or the quarterstaff are able to deal sneak attack damage.

Neither are finesse weapons.

I suggest using a shortsword, or houseruling it (as I have done).

[Mandragola]

I don't see it as a problem at all that you can't sneak with unarmed strikes. Those are bonuses that a rogue doesn't get anyway. You still get two normal attacks with your main weapon, while the rogue only gets one. Shortswords and daggers are both monk weapons, and both relatively common items to turn up as magic treasure.

Point is, you're no less likely to be able to sneak than a normal rogue. Actually you're more likely to do it, thanks to your 2nd attack. Your sneaks do less of course, but that's mitigated by being able to hit targets 4 times on your surprise round - all of them crits - and stun people as well.

6 monk levels loses you 3 dice of sneak but gains you 2-3 attacks (depending on flurry) with your dex added to all of them. 2d6+10 or 3d6+15 is more than the 3d6 you're losing from sneak. And of course bear in mind that there are quite a lot of ways you could end up doing more damage per hit, through magic items or spells, so it really helps to have more attacks. This is especially true for a half-orc, since if he gets 4 crits on a surprise round he does 4x the weapon dice in extra damage!

The balance does shift back in favour of more rogue levels if you have a way of regularly triggering extra sneak attacks when it's not your turn, through something like commander's strike. Overall though I don't think mixing in monk levels to a rogue build will reduce your damage. I think the opposite is true.

However that does make level 6 a really major break point for shadow monks. Any more than that and you are very slightly reducing your maximum potential damage.

For me there are two main contenders for levelling schemes. Either have rogue 5 and the rest in monk or monk 6 and the rest in rogue. If you plan on going mainly rogue then you don't gain enormously from extra monk levels beyond shadow step. Rogue gives you evasion anyway and plenty of ASIs.

Do also consider what it's going to be like to play the character in game. It can take a while to level up and it's no fun if you're looking ahead to a bleak time of levels that don't gain you anything. I think on the whole I'm glad I started with monk because it will feel like every rogue level adds something (sneak and expertise, cunning action, sneak and assassin, ASI, sneak and uncanny dodge). Meanwhile it won't steal all that much from my monk abilities if I've already got two attacks, D6 weapon damage, stunning fist, shadow step and a decent amount of Ki.

Personally I'm going mainly monk and I'm not certain I'll ever take rogue levels. Those first 5 levels do look good though!

Oh and don't worry about the shield thing. Mistakes like that happen. At least hopefully it won't feel too bad to switch to monk now. Your AC will actually be a little better than as a rogue.

[Person_Man]

Thanks for sharing DragonSinged. I've also played an Assassin Rogue extensively, and it is indeed awesome.

Question: Do you feel that the Monk abilities you've gained have been more useful/powerful then the Rogue abilities you would have gained, and how often do you use your Monk abilities? In particular, how useful has Shadow Step and your various Ki fueled abilities been, and how often do you use them?

Reading your post, it seems like most of the Monk abilities were mediocre or actually set you back compared to a strait Rogue, Shadow Step and Pass Without Trace and Stunning Fist are awesome, but you don't have a ton of Ki points to use them.

Just speaking for myself, I agree that the Monk has plenty of cool things to do, but you're giving up Sneak Attack progression, Uncanny Dodge, more Expertise, and delaying (and potentially overlapping) Evasion, and I'm not sure its worth the trade.

[Myzz]

yeah, I'm now contemplating my next Char to be a Half Orc, Assassin Shadow Monk...

TWF with Dagger Monk weapons, coated in poison using flurry of blows with assassinate... I really like how that sounds.

We typically use Standard Array, so the half Orc would allow me to completely dump Str without getting any negs...

Shadow Step also helps to get your sneak attacks in, my current Rogue is having some issue with this since the DM is making more and more concerted effort to remove any chance I have at sneak attacks, after comb

Thanks for the share DragonSinged =)

[Spacehamster]

In response to everyone pointing out about not beeing able to SA with unarmed strikes, if you read his post he says that he is aware of that but that his DM allows it. :) which I also would as a DM since there is nothing more finesse than martial arts so its just silly that RAW does not say unarmed monk combat should count as a finesse "weapon".

[odigity]

I'm not usually a fan of the Warlock dip for rogues but... It ends up seeming very 'ninja' feeling to do Rogue 11/Monk 6/Warlock 3

Tome gives you Guidance, Devil's Sight, then maybe.... Book for Find Familiar? Or Armor of Shadows if you skimped on wisdom?

I don't think Warlock 3 is worth it for that build. The pact boon isn't critical (though fun), and 2nd lvl spells aren't important for the build.

The char I'm playing now (Warlock 1 / Monk 5) was originally going to be a Warlock 2 / Monk 6 / Rogue 12. But I'm thinking I might just go Warlock 2 / Monk 18. I really like the Monk, might as well give it a try. And there's no such thing as too many Ki points. :)

[odigity]

However, in the party we've got a Moon Druid, a Hunter Ranger, and a Tempest domain Cleric.

Monk, Druid, Ranger, and Cleric? Your party is composed of the four Wis-based classes? Guess no one's sneaking up on ya'll...

[odigity]

While toying with Monk builds I found out that Rogue/Monk isn't as good a combo, bacause apparently you can't Sneak Attack with unarmed strikes or a quarterstaff - SA only works with finesse and ranged weapons, which US and the staff aren't. Most DMs could probably rule that it still works thanks to Martial Arts, but RAW it doesn't. A 3 level dip in Warlock gives the Darkness + Devil's Sight combo while steel retaining the mystical ninja feel.

That's correct. Nearly all Rogue/Monk builds are predicated on the assumption that you're DM's not a jerk, and will allow the Monk to trigger Sneak Attack with Monk weapons/UAS. If they are a jerk... don't play with them. :)

Really, really stupid RAW loophole.

(Yes, some people would still take Rogue 3 for assassin even without the house rule, but meh.)

[Easy_Lee]

I'm torn on this multiclass, though I agree with many that it's niche. On the one hand, getting pass without trace, shadow step, and 3-4 attacks per round on top of 6-7d6 sneak attack and expertise, among other benefits, is awesome. On the other hand, only needing dexterity and being able to get lots of bonus feats, more sneak attack, and never have a slow level is also great.

At the end of the day, the major benefit of the multiclass is stealth. For that reason, assassin is probably the most logical archetype since it relies the most on turn one, so good thinking.

I'd say stick with monk until you get extra attack and shadow jump, since those are the big things you need. The build really comes fully online at 8. From there, I'd just see whether more Ki or more sneak attack will be more helpful to the build on a per level basis. Also, I strongly caution against taking any feats until you've maxed your dexterity. You can make do with 17 AC, but missing attacks is awful.

[odigity]

Shadow Step and Pass Without Trace and Stunning Fist are awesome, but you don't have a ton of Ki points to use them.

Shadow Step doesn't require Ki-points, it's merely at-will, which is amazing.

PwoT is 2 Ki points (as is Darkness, Silence, Darkvision), but you generally only need to cast it once per encounter if at all.

I think in a Monk 6/Rogue 14 build you'd primarily use your 6 Kit points for Stunning Fist, Flurry of Blows, and Patient Defense. 6 is a tight budget, but you can still do a lot with it, and often, if you short rest regularly.

I think the fact that Cunning Action means you can dash/disengage/hide without Ki points helps offset the scarcity. But it's speculation, I'm still only at Monk 5 / Rogue 0.

[Mandragola]

I still don't see it as an issue at all that you can't sneak with unarmed strikes. Just use a dagger or shortsword, both of which are finesse weapons and monk weapons. They will always do the same damage as your unarmed strikes or more and you get two tries to sneak. You don't also need to be able to sneak with unarmed strikes and adding 5 monk levels to a rogue does substantially increase your damage dealing and utility.

It would be nice to be able to sneak with any of your attacks but it would be wrong because it would be almost impossible to fail to sneak - where a normal rogue only gets a single try at it.

Thinking about it though, if I wanted to make a character to take full advantage of assassinate plus savage strikes I'd make a half-orc fighter/rogue with two weapon fighting style. By the time you were fighter 5 rogue 3 you could have 5 attacks in a surprise round with action surge, each doing 3d6+4 (assuming shortswords) plus a 3d6 sneak. Make the fighter a battlemaster and you can chuck in a bunch of superiority dice, all of which will be doubled as well by the auto-crit. You'd also get to make the enemy fall over, drop his weapons and stuff.

If you used superiority dice on all your attacks you'd do 5x(3d6+2d8+4) + 3d6. If all of those attacks hit that's an average of 128 damage - plus whatever magic, poison and battlemaster status effects you add in. That's rather a lot more than the typical hp of an 8th level character! You might want to go and have a short rest after that to reset your fighter abilities, but you'd have earned it!

It might be worth getting the two weapon fighting feat at fighter 4 but I'm not sure about it. It does of course turn 3d6 into 3d8, which adds 15 damage in total to those 5 attacks, but it takes off 5 damage again from the lost point of strength (and I think it makes sense to be strength-based because half-orc, though actually dex would work just as well in the case of the OP). Actually this character would get an ASI at rogue 4 and fighter 6 as it levelled, so capping strength would be easy enough. You do want at least 5 levels in rogue I think because uncanny dodge just seems fantastic to me for anyone loitering on the front rank.

Edit: I second Odigity's point about not really needing all that much Ki to function. I don't use flurry much at all and I imagine you won't, at least outside of a surprise round. You still get one unarmed strike as a bonus action without the Ki. Stunning fist is amazing, but less necessary if you're doing so much damage that the enemy falls over straight away! I do like patient defence a lot but uncanny dodge reduces the need for that, when you eventually pick it up.

[Person_Man]

Shadow Step doesn't require Ki-points, it's merely at-will, which is amazing.

That's true, but how often do you actually use Shadow Step in a situation where normal highly successful Stealth and/or Cunning Action Dash wouldn't suffice? If you just need to get from one side of the room to the other side without being noticed, either should work. Though I think the answer depends very heavily on the particular DM and gaming group.



Separately, I think its worth comparing the usefulness of Rogue/Monk to Rogue/Ranger or Rogue/Druid. I think Rogue/Ranger would have much higher damage output (Fighting Style, Hoardbreaker or Colossus Slayer, Hunter's Mark, Extra Attack) and still has access to Pass Without Trace. Rogue/Druid might be superior as well - if your DM allows Sneak Attack to work with Martial Arts, why not allow it for natural attacks that use Dexterity? That would give you access to Pack Tactics and other Beast abilities, and you'd have access to Enhance Ability and Guidance and Pass Without Trace spells, among others.

Alternatively, you could just play a strait Shadow Monk. The class is awesome as is. It doesn't really need Rogue levels to be effective at stealth, mobility, or dealing damage.

[Myzz]

doesnt the next attack made after shadowstep have advantage? that seems to sync well with rogue's sneak attack...

well for melee anyways... so as long as you can shadowstep you can gain advantage, for rogues with DM's that don't let you hide in plain sight even if you utilize tricky methods to do so...

6 levels to do what you should be able to do all along is a steep price to pay, but you get other cool things out of it too...

[b4ndito]

Thanks for posting this, I was interested in making a character of this nature when my campaign ends. I'm going to keep track of your progress, so thanks if you continue with this thread.

I was thinking, without a ton of planning, of a Drow Monk/Rogue/Warlock, but only taking the warlock if it develops appropriately through play.

So in your opinion should I focus on Rogue 6 or Monk 6 before multi-classing? Or should I level them with balance?

[EvanescentHero]

This is probably my most anticipated class combo if I end up actually playing in a 5e campaign instead of DMing one, so I'm glad to hear it's working out well. Please continue to share your experiences!

[Yagyujubei]

yeah im debating on if and/or how many rogue levels I should take right now. I'm monk8/lock2 atm and it's amazing fun and very strong, but I'm just not sure where I would put the levels if I got them..having them be a capstone means I'll likely never even see the combo come online, but doing it now puts me behind for 3 levels until I get assassin...

dunno...I'll have to crunch some numbers when i get to my book.

[Easy_Lee]

yeah im debating on if and/or how many rogue levels I should take right now. I'm monk8/lock2 atm and it's amazing fun and very strong, but I'm just not sure where I would put the levels if I got them..having them be a capstone means I'll likely never even see the combo come online, but doing it now puts me behind for 3 levels until I get assassin...

dunno...I'll have to crunch some numbers when i get to my book.

Depending on whether your DM is okay with it, I'd actually encourage you to continue to warlock 12 from where you are. Pick up blade pact, declare unarmed strike as your pact weapon, and you can eventually add CHA to unarmed strikes, for some startling DPR. The jump invocation can stack with your step of the wind for some truly spectacular jumps. All of the warlock casting gives you a wide variety of options for dealing with threats when hitting it doesn't work. If your WIS is low, you can use the shadow armor invocation to use 13+DEX for armor, retaining unarmored bonuses.

That said, this particular build kind of requires that you build for it from level 1, unless your DM lets you swap your WIS and CHA (e.g. as part of some kind of warlock ritual). Alternatively, your DM may be okay with using wisdom for your warlock casting and invocations in place of CHA, since warlocks are proficient in WIS saves. That's more of a stretch, though.

[DragonSinged]

Sorry for the late reply, folks. I work in film, which means long hours.. today was a 15 hour day.. :smallsigh:


Barring a house rule from your DM, neither your unarmed attacks or the quarterstaff are able to deal sneak attack damage.

Neither are finesse weapons.

I suggest using a shortsword, or houseruling it (as I have done).

From OP:


I should probably also clarify that my GM has allowed the Monks unarmed strikes and Martial Arts weapons to count as Finesse, so if your GM is a stickler about that, YMMV.




Point is, you're no less likely to be able to sneak than a normal rogue. Actually you're more likely to do it, thanks to your 2nd attack. Your sneaks do less of course, but that's mitigated by being able to hit targets 4 times on your surprise round - all of them crits - and stun people as well.

6 monk levels loses you 3 dice of sneak but gains you 2-3 attacks (depending on flurry) with your dex added to all of them. 2d6+10 or 3d6+15 is more than the 3d6 you're losing from sneak. And of course bear in mind that there are quite a lot of ways you could end up doing more damage per hit, through magic items or spells, so it really helps to have more attacks. This is especially true for a half-orc, since if he gets 4 crits on a surprise round he does 4x the weapon dice in extra damage!

The balance does shift back in favour of more rogue levels if you have a way of regularly triggering extra sneak attacks when it's not your turn, through something like commander's strike. Overall though I don't think mixing in monk levels to a rogue build will reduce your damage. I think the opposite is true.

However that does make level 6 a really major break point for shadow monks. Any more than that and you are very slightly reducing your maximum potential damage.

For me there are two main contenders for levelling schemes. Either have rogue 5 and the rest in monk or monk 6 and the rest in rogue. If you plan on going mainly rogue then you don't gain enormously from extra monk levels beyond shadow step. Rogue gives you evasion anyway and plenty of ASIs.

That's an interesting point about getting multiple crits in the surprise round! I hadn't thought about that, but after rereading assassinate, looks like you're right, it definitely works. Your post alleviates my worries about DPR losses somewhat, thanks.

So in your opinion, going Monk 11/Rogue 9 for more Ki, improved movement, and invisibility, while still gaining some Rogue options isn't a good breaking point? I'd like to hear peoples opinions about the trade offs with that break.


Thanks for sharing DragonSinged. I've also played an Assassin Rogue extensively, and it is indeed awesome.

Question: Do you feel that the Monk abilities you've gained have been more useful/powerful then the Rogue abilities you would have gained, and how often do you use your Monk abilities? In particular, how useful has Shadow Step and your various Ki fueled abilities been, and how often do you use them?

Reading your post, it seems like most of the Monk abilities were mediocre or actually set you back compared to a strait Rogue, Shadow Step and Pass Without Trace and Stunning Fist are awesome, but you don't have a ton of Ki points to use them.

Just speaking for myself, I agree that the Monk has plenty of cool things to do, but you're giving up Sneak Attack progression, Uncanny Dodge, more Expertise, and delaying (and potentially overlapping) Evasion, and I'm not sure its worth the trade.

So after reading your replies, I feel like I should clarify what some of the monk abilities actually do.

Shadow Step is a bonus action, cost-less 60 foot teleport from one shadowy or dark area to another, and it gives you advantage on the first melee attack you make before the end of the turn. That means that even if you're on your own, you can just Shadow Step from one side of an enemy to the other and always have your sneak attack damage. Plus, you get to teleport. Every turn. There's just so much coolness factor there. It's line of sight, too, so you could look through a keyhole and teleport through a door, as one of many possible creative uses.

Pass Without Trace gives you and anyone you choose within 30 feet +10 to Stealth. From what I've seen of 5E so far, +10 is huge. Like, that's crazy good. Not only that, but you can only be tracked through magical means, and you leave no trace of your passage behind, which are just added bonuses. This ability is intense.

Darkness, silence, and minor illusion are all situationally very handy, as is slow fall, and deflect missiles.
Plus, in case you missed it, at level 5 of Monk you gain an Extra Attack, which is something the Rogue never gets.
Likewise at level 5 you gain stunning strike, which only costs 1 Ki, and at level 6 in addition to teleport, your unarmed strikes become magical, which seems handy in this edition.

So yeah, that's a lot of gains. Sure, you lose some things from rogue, but in my opinion you gain a lot of utility and a fair amount of damage (flurries, extra attack), and honestly it just seems like a really fun build.



I'd say stick with monk until you get extra attack and shadow jump, since those are the big things you need. The build really comes fully online at 8. From there, I'd just see whether more Ki or more sneak attack will be more helpful to the build on a per level basis. Also, I strongly caution against taking any feats until you've maxed your dexterity. You can make do with 17 AC, but missing attacks is awful.

Thanks for the advice! The main feat I'm really wanting to pick up is Alert, but on the other hand, upping Dex would still give me a (smaller) initiative boost, as well as other bonuses, so you might be right. Still, Alert is tempting, especially as an Assassin... We'll see when I get there, I guess. I'll have lots of time to gauge whether I need that initiative bonus.



I think in a Monk 6/Rogue 14 build you'd primarily use your 6 Kit points for Stunning Fist, Flurry of Blows, and Patient Defense. 6 is a tight budget, but you can still do a lot with it, and often, if you short rest regularly.

I think the fact that Cunning Action means you can dash/disengage/hide without Ki points helps offset the scarcity. But it's speculation, I'm still only at Monk 5 / Rogue 0.

Cunning Action really is an amazing ability - I end up using some factor of it in every combat, without fail. However, I think it might largely end up being made obsolete by Shadow Step, once that comes online. We'll see. I am a little concerned about how many Ki points I'll end up with, which is part of the draw for me to Monk 11/Rogue 9. Again, hopefully more play will help me decide.
Also, so far my group is fine with taking Short Rests every now and then, so as you said, that might help somewhat.


Thanks for posting this, I was interested in making a character of this nature when my campaign ends. I'm going to keep track of your progress, so thanks if you continue with this thread.

I was thinking, without a ton of planning, of a Drow Monk/Rogue/Warlock, but only taking the warlock if it develops appropriately through play.

So in your opinion should I focus on Rogue 6 or Monk 6 before multi-classing? Or should I level them with balance?
Hey, happy to help! I'll try to visit back here after our group plays, update with anything interesting that happened.
The character you're proposing sounds interesting. From an optimizing point of view, if you end up taking Devil's Sight with Warlock you'll end up with redundant Darkvision from the Drow while still having the weakness of Sunlight Sensitivity, so that's something to think about.
As far as going Rogue or Monk first... it's tricky. You may have noticed I've been having similar conundrums myself! Happily, the problem is that they're both a lot of fun to play, so to me it really comes down to playstyle. Rogue 2 is a blast, and Rogue 3/Assassin is just brutal if your group allows you to plan those Assassinations, because dang but you roll piles of damage dice. On the other hand, while I'm not thrilled with Monk 1 & 2, Monk 3-6 are all fantastic levels, capping out with Shadow Step, which obviously is entire point of going Shadow Monk.
So it really boils down to how patient you are. I've been pretty happy with the way I'm doing it, which is Rogue to 3, then Monk to 6, but like I said, that Monk 1 and 2 in the middle there has been a little bit rough, but past there is all sweetness. :smallbiggrin:


Anyways, sorry I don't have time to reply to every post, but I've gotta be back at work in something like 7 hours (ugh film ugh), so have a great night everyone!

[Malifice]

Pass Without Trace gives you and anyone you choose within 30 feet +10 to Stealth. From what I've seen of 5E so far, +10 is huge. Like, that's crazy good. Not only that, but you can only be tracked through magical means, and you leave no trace of your passage behind, which are just added bonuses. This ability is intense.

You still need cover or concealment to hide behind though.

[Mandragola]

So in your opinion, going Monk 11/Rogue 9 for more Ki, improved movement, and invisibility, while still gaining some Rogue options isn't a good breaking point? I'd like to hear peoples opinions about the trade offs with that break.

I can't really say for sure. It feels to me like some of the mid-level abilities for both classes are mediocre and there's even a bit of duplication with evasion. So for me it would make sense to put most of my levels one way or the other. That said, your version will give you a balance between Ki points, unarmed damage and having a respectable sneak attack.

As a half orc I suppose there's a good case for getting your unarmed strike damage dice up as high as possible, since you will be rolling it a lot (from multiple crits and savage attacks). More than for another race I'd therefore say you probably have more to gain from monk levels than rogue levels. I think for me the break point with rogue lies somewhere between 3 (assassin is required) and 5 (because uncanny dodge is a stellar ability for tanking)

Disengage will often be better than shadow step, especially with a monk's speed. It gets you in and out again! So in an ideal round you can run up to the enemy caster, stun him, sneak attack him with your second attack and run back to your friends.

[odigity]

Disengage will often be better than shadow step, especially with a monk's speed. It gets you in and out again! So in an ideal round you can run up to the enemy caster, stun him, sneak attack him with your second attack and run back to your friends.

If you stun your opponent, you don't need to Disengage or in order to leave safely. You also don't need to leave at all.

I've been thinking about Disengage vs Shadow Step, and I think shadow step might end up getting used most of the time you would want to use disengage. Comparison:

Disengage: adds no movement, just lets you avoid AoOs when moving
Shadow Step: <=60' teleport (assuming shadows on both ends) with no AoOs

When you Shadow Step away, you get up to 60' extra movement without AoOs, which is superior to Disengage in every way unless:
a) there aren't sufficient shadows (high noon in an open field -- very niche)
b) you need to be able to run past enemy A to get to enemy B *and* get away after without triggering AoOs (very niche)

[odigity]

BTW-Am I crazy for considering Warlock 2 / Monk 9 (shadow) / Rogue 5 (assassin) / Fighter 4 (battle master)?

As others have pointed out, the higher Rogue levels are relatively less valuable. Monk continues to progress steadily along multiple lines (movement, base damage, Ki, plus new abilities), but still, most of the stuff I'm really excited about I'll have by level 9. Whereas going Fighter 4 gives me:

1) GWF style, which will let me reroll 1s/2s with my quarterstaff (get two attacks per round, plus sneak attack dmg, plus battle master damage, plus it's a Staff of Striking, so more d6s from that -- that's a lot of dice I can reroll)
2) Second Wind (minor BA self-heal)
3) Action Surge (extra action during my assassin surprise round = massive opening damage)
4) 3 Manuevers w/ 4 Dice, which is kind of like getting to be Shadow monk and Open Hand monk at the same time

That just seems like so damn much fun compared to what I'd get in the second half of Monk. And I'd be the king of short rests.

(Note: I'm already Warlock 1 / Monk 5.)

[Mandragola]

You're missing my point about disengage, or perhaps you're assuming you'll only ever face lone monsters. Shadow step lets you get places, gives you advantage to sneak with, and is seriously great. It doesn't help if you want to hit the enemy caster, behind his mooks, and get away again before all those mooks have a turn. Disengage can help there.

I don't see any of the many options you've got for a monk/rogue's bonus action as no-brainer things you do every turn. It's just nice to have options. Sometimes the best option will be to shadow step, bash a guy and run off with your normal move. Other times you'll take a bunch of opportunity attacks doing that so another tactic is needed.

[Person_Man]

You still need cover or concealment to hide behind though.

Ranger and Druid also offer Pass Without Trace, and the Bard can cherry pick it as well. So its not like its a Shadow Monk exclusive ability.

Also, I'm still not clear what a Shadow Monk gains from taking Rogue levels. Once you get Pass Without Trace, you don't need Expertise in Stealth. Shadow jump and Ki powers overlap with Cunning Action. I guess you get some additional damage from Sneak Attack (assuming your DM allows a house rule to allow it to work) and Assassinate. But you're delaying your base Unarmed Strike damage progression, delaying your access to Extra Attack and Stunning Fist, reducing the number of Ki Points you get to fuel Flurry, and delaying access to your cool high level abilities.

So pure Monk is awesome. And pure Rogue is awesome. But I'm not sure Monk/Rogue is somehow superior. It seems like it would be better to have a pure Monk and a pure Rogue working together.

[Yagyujubei]

@Easy lee: I'm wanting to take monk to at least 14?(AFB) to get those tasty saves, so I'll be left with 4 levels that I'm up in the air about....whether I take 1 more warlock and 3 rogue, or just keep going monk, or go up to 6 warlock...im still weighing out the pros and cons

[Easy_Lee]

@Easy lee: I'm wanting to take monk to at least 14?(AFB) to get those tasty saves, so I'll be left with 4 levels that I'm up in the air about....whether I take 1 more warlock and 3 rogue, or just keep going monk, or go up to 6 warlock...im still weighing out the pros and cons

What do you get from warlock that you want to keep? I'm not sure that having warlock levels adds to the character in this case. Devil's sight can be replaced with an item most likely (especially if you complain loudly enough). Beyond that, some warlock invocations might add to the character but I'm not sure how much they would add.

Hex is probably the biggest addition, so I guess I could see taking warlock 2 for two casts of that and two invocations. If you're already committed to that warlock level, I'd just go shadow monk 18/warlock 2, all ASIs go to wis and dex, and pick the two invocations that you think will benefit you the most in the long run. I'd definitely ask the DM's permission to possibly swap invocations as a ritual, just in case you want to change them in the future (or he/she lets you quality for higher level invocations such as otherwordly leap).

Four levels of rogue is probably not worth giving up the monk progression, particularly the shadow monk feature. Ditto for warlock progression beyond level 2, in this case. You're also going to miss out on a feat at 19, but that should be fine as long as you spend your ASIs on maxing your Dex and Wis.

[DragonSinged]

Ranger and Druid also offer Pass Without Trace, and the Bard can cherry pick it as well. So its not like its a Shadow Monk exclusive ability.

Also, I'm still not clear what a Shadow Monk gains from taking Rogue levels. Once you get Pass Without Trace, you don't need Expertise in Stealth. Shadow jump and Ki powers overlap with Cunning Action. I guess you get some additional damage from Sneak Attack (assuming your DM allows a house rule to allow it to work) and Assassinate. But you're delaying your base Unarmed Strike damage progression, delaying your access to Extra Attack and Stunning Fist, reducing the number of Ki Points you get to fuel Flurry, and delaying access to your cool high level abilities.

So pure Monk is awesome. And pure Rogue is awesome. But I'm not sure Monk/Rogue is somehow superior. It seems like it would be better to have a pure Monk and a pure Rogue working together.

I don't think anyone claimed that Pass Without Trace was Monk exclusive, but you're right, some other classes have access to it. Not Rogue, but some other classes.

As far as what you're not sure about, I don't know, man. I've explained repeatedly why I think the character I'm playing is fun, and there seem to be lots of people that agree, so I don't get why this is wrongbadfun to you, you really seem to not want people to play this. I wasn't really trying to suggest a build in the first place, I was actually just trying to tell people what I'm playing, since I've seen more than a few discussions about similar builds to this, but couldn't find anyone actually discussing their in-game experience as to how it worked out, so that's what I'm trying to offer here.

You are absolutely correct with your last point! 2 characters, one pure rogue and one pure monk, working together, will absolutely outclass my single character!
However, I think you'll find that's true of any multiclass character in the game, and at any rate, my GM is only allowing me to play one character, so I can't really take advantage of your advice.

Anyways, good news! Looks like my group is playing this weekend, so I'll hopefully be able to take advantage of my new monkly abilities and let you guys know how it's working.
:smallbiggrin:

[Mandragola]

I'm slightly struggling to see when id want to make my monk take rogue levels. The issue is that you keep getting cool presents as you level as monk.

So obviously you go to monk 6 for shadow step. The next level gives evasion and the option to cancel fear/charm effects automatically - which are both seriously awesome. Next level you get an ASI, followed be being able to run up walls and across water, like an alien that popped out of Jesus. And so on.

Result is I'm unsure that it's ever right to switch to rogue. Personally I think I'll go monk 8, then rogue 5, then back to monk. Uncanny dodge does actually look amazing for a monk as I do my fair share of tanking!

[Myzz]

wouldnt you normally want to start with Rogue?

I realize you started monk... but for the idea of an assassin shadow monk, wouldnt you want to start rogue, maybe go to Rog 3, before picking up Monk???

going monk first nets you one less skill overall (2 from monk + 1 multi-class Rogue, vs 4 from Rogue)

get thieves tools earlier... and Expertise right off the bat, as well as sneak attack...

could make the argument to go 1 rogue, then 1 Monk... but I'd think Cunning Action might be worth it, then at Rog 3 you'd get assassin, and a sneak attack bump...

Rogue 3 then Monk 6 seems to make the most sense if actually leveling up during play...

[Mandragola]

Well actually I created my character at 4th, as I was DMing for the group before that. The group already has a rogue and I'd never seen a monk in play, so that's how I've gone. You might be right about that leveling scheme, though one problem with it is a very long wait for ASIs.

There are always trade-offs though. I think lots of different options make sense. Both rogue and monk give you benefits for every level you take, so there aren't really any natural break points. You need monk 6 and rogue 3, but beyond that I think all options are fine - and more a question of preference.

[Easy_Lee]

I'd say you either want monk 14 or rogue 14 for the build, at least. 17 monk / 3 rogue may work well too. Reason being is that both classes get awesome abilities at those levels. Rogue 14 will net you higher burst and more skill power, whereas monk 14 will net you more consistent damage, saves, and considerably more ki.

From the sounds of your character, going monk 14 after rogue 3 is probably the right thing to do. After that, I would see if you would rather have rogue levels or monk levels for the rest.

[Mandragola]

Could be. But then uncanny dodge is phenomenal. I'm much more interested in how the character plays each level as I go up than how it works at 20, which I'll probably never reach.

[Easy_Lee]

Could be. But then uncanny dodge is phenomenal. I'm much more interested in how the character plays each level as I go up than how it works at 20, which I'll probably never reach.

In that case, I would say you should decide your endgame now and prioritize finishing the class who you're closer to finishing. Ex: if you decide to go rogue 12/monk 8 or something, I'd go ahead and finish monk first. That way you can just level rogue afterwards and get something new at every level.

In general, my approach to multiclassing is to finish one class before going into the next. That way I don't have to worry about delaying feats and that kind of stuff.

[Hak Gwai]

Hi all - my first post on GitPG!

I too, am playing a Shadow Monk (currently Lvl 4, almost Lvl 5), and am looking at how to play this character to best effect. Please forgive me if I ramble a bit. I could go on about my character, but keeping it very brief: Wu is from the Shou Lung-T'u-Lung border, and belongs to a ninja-like triad (well, not so much ninja as "Vagabonds" in the Chinese tradition) who hold as their patron a demigod of wealth, Wu Tong - a decidedly dark and ambiguous figure (historical Chinese spirit, btw).

As of now:
Str 9
Dex 18
Con 12
Int 9
Wis 18
Cha 11 (no Warlock for Wu)

Algn True Neutral (The Way - Taoism)

Variant human (Lucky feat), proficiencies in Acrobatics, Insight, Medicine and Stealth, Thieve's tools, and Cooking (yes, cooking)

Wu's background is criminal, and I've mapped out his progression (providing he survives) to 20th level. While I will be multiclassiing Rogue, it will only be for one (or possibly two) levels, and I'll be doing it at level 13, and then (if again) at level 20. Why?

- Expertise is amazing. Wu is physically weak (9 strength), and I think that grappling, disarming, and other such maneuvers are highly under-utilized.

But, by taking a stat bump again at 8 and the Skilled feat at 12 (Athletics, Perception, and Poisoner's kit), then applying expertise from Rogue at 13 to Athletics, and then adding my proficiency bonus at 14 (Diamond Soul) Wu's grappling capabilities become very formidable (-1, but then proficiency bonus, doubled: +5, x 2, -1 = +9 to athletics at 14th level for a character with 9 strength!). This is important for one of the things shadow monks excel at - taking down spell casters and other back-of-room baddies. Shadow step, plus silence, plus stunning strike, plus a strong grapple, plus Evasion, plus Stillness of Mind, plus Purity of Body, plus Lucky = goodbye spell caster. Mage Slayer at that point is a waste. Edit - I'm wrong, I think. Diamond Soul says saving throws - NOT ability checks. Time to look at acquiring a girdle of giant strength.

- Extra proficiency - Sleight of Hand can be very powerful when combined with proficiency with poison. Especially for a cook who happens to be immune to poison (Purity of Body). "But I tasted it! Everyone saw me!"

- Advantage from Shadow step, combined with a little extra backstab, plus the ability to purchase and brew expensive poisons, combined with stunning strike (and then chain stunning or teleporting) make for an excellent and devastating synergy. Strike. At. Will.

- Cunning action (if I took a second Rogue level and gave up the last feat/stat bump) allows you to approximate some of the Step of the Wind capabilities without using Ki (disengage, dash). Given the superior monk movement rate, this makes for a great synergy as well, and allows you to spend Ki more effectively.

- the absolute best monk high-level ability that a Way of the Shadow monk can access comes at Monk lvl 18 - Empty Body (no Quivering Palm for me, Dammit). Empty body makes you invincible in combat for 10 rounds per 4 Ki. Not subject to dispelling. Can only be harmed by FORCE damage - Force is pure magical energy focused into a damaging form. Most effects that deal force damage are spells - Banishment, Bigby’s Hand, Eldritch Blast, Forcecage, Imprisonment, Magic Missile, Mordenkianen’s Sword, Otiluke’s Resillient Sphere, Prismatic Wall, Spiritual Weapon, Thunderwave (maybe), and Wall of Force. So basically, after 18 levels of Monk, and being able to totally shut down casters (thereby mitigating to a significant degree the above-indicated force damage), you can dole out damage for 10 rounds straight per 4 ki, without just about ANYTHING being able to touch you. Oh, and you're invisible. Toe-to-toe with just about anything.

Taking more than 2 levels of anything else at the current level 20 limit prohibits you from doing this. Plus, you don't want to forgo too many ability score or feat opportunities (as these are based on level of CLASS, not total level). Also, it doesn't PAY to take Monk all the way to 20. Perfect Self is underwhelming. And so is Opportunist at 17th for Way of the Shadow, but you have to pass that to get to Empty Body, so meh.

Why level 13 for the break? 12 is where I get a stat bump or a feat and am only forgoing Tongue of the Sun and Moon (which I think is neat, but I can delay it) at 13 by taking Rogue 1. Also, the XP point progression in levels 11 to 19 is WAY lower than in levels 3-10. So if I want to get my Rogue levels relatively quicker, THIS is where to take them. One level of Rogue means I get my last stat bump at total level 20 - Mnk 12, then Rg 1, then to Mnk to 19 = 20 levels.

Also, being able at Mnk 17 to swap Opportunist for the Rogue 14th-level Blindsense would be devastating. Blindsense + Darkness? Wishful thinking, but yes, please.

Anyway, these are my observations, and I hope they've been contributive. Comments, suggestions and criticisms welcome!

One other thing I'd like to re-visit re: Monk strategy. Stunning Strike combined with disarming can be absolutely lethal. As per the stunned condition, str and dex saves are auto-failed. On a successful stun, you can take a stunned fighter/paladin/martial-what-have-you's weapon via Disarm (auto-fail opposed roll), teleport, throw or otherwise dispose of it, and then basically come back and finish them off at your leisure. Stun them again,take secondary weapon, quiver, etc, or cut thier armour straps. Martials without weapons and armour are really, really sad, especially against a character who IS a weapon. So, in finishing, a smartly-played Monk with a dash of Rogue can shut down casters AND martials.

And yet one other thing: Wu spends part of his treasure having things made- simple things that greatly increase his effectiveness in shrewd ninja fashion. One of several examples - manacles with curved razor-sharp blades on the inside circumference of the cuffs. On a stun, slip them on. Do you want to break those? Sure, go ahead, and cut off your own hands. :)

[Mandragola]

Stun, followed by a disarm as the 2nd attack, is a pretty brutal way to deal with an enemy who uses a weapon. It does just win you the fight. Not much help against a dragon or a beholder of course!

Anyway that's some useful analysis so thanks. I also think that expertise in athletics is one of the great selling points of level 1 rogue for monks. I have two caveats on that though: You can run up and down walls and teleport when it's dark anyway, so you need athletics less for getting around, and people autofail their checks against your manoeuvres when stunned so it's not so needed for combat either. I just feel like a monk ought to be good at that stuff though.

[Hak Gwai]

Thanks for the feedback, and your points about Athletics are well-taken. In general, Monk seems to be one of the coolest classes in so far as it has so many class options that can sub-in for potential weaknesses. If you like to build characters self-contained (like I do), it really does seem like the way to go. Although I haven't looked at Bards much :smallsmile:

[DragonSinged]

- the absolute best monk high-level ability that a Way of the Shadow monk can access comes at Monk lvl 18 - Empty Body (no Quivering Palm for me, Dammit). Empty body makes you invincible in combat for 10 rounds per 4 Ki. Not subject to dispelling. Can only be harmed by FORCE damage - Force is pure magical energy focused into a damaging form. Most effects that deal force damage are spells - Banishment, Bigby’s Hand, Eldritch Blast, Forcecage, Imprisonment, Magic Missile, Mordenkianen’s Sword, Otiluke’s Resillient Sphere, Prismatic Wall, Spiritual Weapon, Thunderwave (maybe), and Wall of Force. So basically, after 18 levels of Monk, and being able to totally shut down casters (thereby mitigating to a significant degree the above-indicated force damage), you can dole out damage for 10 rounds straight per 4 ki, without just about ANYTHING being able to touch you. Oh, and you're invisible. Toe-to-toe with just about anything.


Hey, welcome to the playground! Pretty good first post, you raise some really interesting details and strategies. However, I think you should re-read Empty Body. It is an incredible ability, but it doesn't make you immune to everything but force damage - it gives resistance to everything but force, which means half damage, not no damage. Still, half damage vs almost everything while invisible is pretty intense, and at the level you get it, spending 4 out of 18 ki points isn't exactly a huge deal.

Anyways, my group got together on Saturday. Started a bit earlier and ended up playing for like 8 hours, pretty great.
Howeeever... we had a couple of combats where it wasn't possible to have surprise, and yeah dang that really sucked. Didn't help that in one of the fights, I got hit hard in the first round by about 4 enemies, one of which was the boss, who crit'd, so the ability to disengage and run away to chug a potion was pretty useful, but that put me on the defensive for that fight.

It does look like I underestimated the monk's bonus action extra unarmed attack, however. Even at only 1d4 damage, the fact that it carries my dex bonus damage meant that it was a nice addition to my regular attack+sneak attack.
So yeah, that's an interesting comparison between the Monk's extra attacks and just straight sneak attack - you have to roll separately for each attack, but they all carry your dex damage, and 1d4+3 (going up later) is better than 1d6.

[Hak Gwai]

Hey, welcome to the playground! Pretty good first post, you raise some really interesting details and strategies. However, I think you should re-read Empty Body. It is an incredible ability, but it doesn't make you immune to everything but force damage - it gives resistance to everything but force, which means half damage, not no damage. Still, half damage vs almost everything while invisible is pretty intense, and at the level you get it, spending 4 out of 18 ki points isn't exactly a huge deal.

Anyways, my group got together on Saturday. Started a bit earlier and ended up playing for like 8 hours, pretty great.
Howeeever... we had a couple of combats where it wasn't possible to have surprise, and yeah dang that really sucked. Didn't help that in one of the fights, I got hit hard in the first round by about 4 enemies, one of which was the boss, who crit'd, so the ability to disengage and run away to chug a potion was pretty useful, but that put me on the defensive for that fight.

It does look like I underestimated the monk's bonus action extra unarmed attack, however. Even at only 1d4 damage, the fact that it carries my dex bonus damage meant that it was a nice addition to my regular attack+sneak attack.
So yeah, that's an interesting comparison between the Monk's extra attacks and just straight sneak attack - you have to roll separately for each attack, but they all carry your dex damage, and 1d4+3 (going up later) is better than 1d6.

Wow - BANG on! You're right about Empty Body - Resistance, NOT immunity - thanks so much for catching that, and thanks for the welcome! Yeah, I would NEVER had caught that, as I'd pretty much decided I knew what it meant - now I can better evaluate the trade-offs and advantages, and how to use it to best effect. Invisibility comes free to Shadow Monks at 11, and Astral Travel for 8 ki looks kind of useless, in so far as I understand it, you leave your physical body behind. So the net on this one is resistance to most types of damage (also useful to note that immunity to poison is already a given at that level via Purity of Body). Given the amount of damage most high-level monsters and characters can dish out and considering the limitations and advantages of bounded accuracy, I'm going to have to give a lot more thought to the optimal strategy for this character.

Glad to hear you never went down, even if you weren't able to get surprise (speaking of which, what made it impossible to get?). And you're right - Dex damage really, REALLY adds up when you're plowing out 3-4 attacks a turn. 24 per round with dex pumped is a nice floor, for sure. Have you had a chance to employ suprise + ambush yet? Surprise, get your attacks in, then use your Monk movement to flee, and draw the pursuers into a prepared ambush of the rest of the party? That should be good for a round of advantage at least, if not another potential surprise round for everyone but you.


If only there were one way to consistently cause disadvantage or minuses on constitution saves to really slam home the chances of stunning. Hex only works on skill rolls, NOT saving throws. Maybe THIS is where poison can come into play - a special poison targeting the constitution...?

[b4ndito]

@ DragonSinged:

From what you're saying so far, assassinate has been hard to pull off but for some exceptions? I play in a larger group (6+ generally) and it is chaotic and rushed, generally. I have to imagine that benefit is all but lost on me in most circumstances.

For the purposes of backstory my Drow is going to begin as a Monk at 1, then take 2 rogue levels before finishing Monk 6/Rogue 2 at level 8. From there, I think I'm going to finish straight rogue. I think Assassinate at 9 will be timely, if at all useful.

As far as feats go, I am avoiding Alert -- which I believe you took -- in favor of Mage Slayer. The idea of shadow stepping behind the enemy wizard and leaving him gutted and useless is frankly too appealing to me. The other option I've considered is Magic Initiate. I had contemplated taking Warlock levels to armor myself with magical darkness, etc. but with Drow and Monk abilities to create darkness effects, it seems foolish. Wizard initiate would grant me Message (since I aim to sneak well ahead of the group and wouldn't mind communicating) and Prestidigitation (to snuff out fires/torches/candles - allowing for my darkvision and teleporting and assassination while most are left clueless) as cantrips, plus Mage Armor or something else 1/day, in addition to the Minor Illusion cantrip from Way of the Shadow.

I don't think I need to worry too much about ASI's -- our group still rolls 4d6 and takes the 3 highest for each ability score -- so having 2 or 3 high ability scores immediately isn't out of reach. 3 ASI's and 2 feats at level 20 seems reasonable, no?

[DragonSinged]

Wow - BANG on! You're right about Empty Body - Resistance, NOT immunity - thanks so much for catching that, and thanks for the welcome! Yeah, I would NEVER had caught that, as I'd pretty much decided I knew what it meant - now I can better evaluate the trade-offs and advantages, and how to use it to best effect. Invisibility comes free to Shadow Monks at 11, and Astral Travel for 8 ki looks kind of useless, in so far as I understand it, you leave your physical body behind. So the net on this one is resistance to most types of damage (also useful to note that immunity to poison is already a given at that level via Purity of Body). Given the amount of damage most high-level monsters and characters can dish out and considering the limitations and advantages of bounded accuracy, I'm going to have to give a lot more thought to the optimal strategy for this character.

Glad to hear you never went down, even if you weren't able to get surprise (speaking of which, what made it impossible to get?). And you're right - Dex damage really, REALLY adds up when you're plowing out 3-4 attacks a turn. 24 per round with dex pumped is a nice floor, for sure. Have you had a chance to employ suprise + ambush yet? Surprise, get your attacks in, then use your Monk movement to flee, and draw the pursuers into a prepared ambush of the rest of the party? That should be good for a round of advantage at least, if not another potential surprise round for everyone but you.


If only there were one way to consistently cause disadvantage or minuses on constitution saves to really slam home the chances of stunning. Hex only works on skill rolls, NOT saving throws. Maybe THIS is where poison can come into play - a special poison targeting the constitution...?

Well, don't discount the invisibility from Empty Body, entirely, either - compared to Cloak of Shadows (the shadow monk 11 ability) it has 2 major advantages, and one disadvantage. The advantage that Cloak of Shadows has is that it can potentially last as long as you like, as long as the conditions are right. From my reading of it, you could even sleep while invisible with it, which is maybe not intended, but actually pretty cool - never worry about getting killed in your sleep again!

The 2 advantages Empty Body has is that, one - it doesn't end just because you stepped into daylight or torchlight or any other kind of light, and two - it doesn't end when you make an attack, which Cloak of Shadows does. This is a pretty big disadvantage of Cloak of Shadows, because in order to reactivate the invisibility, you have to use your action, whereas with Empty Body, you're guaranteed those 10 turns of invisibility. Granted, at that level many creatures will be able to see the invisible, but still, it's something.

What made it impossible to get surprise in the fights is that our group was travelling through the underworld (the campaign we're in uses a mixed pantheon of Egyptian, Greek, and Norse deities, so we were travelling through the plains before the River Styx, heading away from the River). The entire underworld was filled with magical darkness that normal nightvision couldn't pierce, and our only source of light was a large iron lantern that is a permanent source of the "Daylight" spell and was also guiding us through the underworld, meaning that we could only possibly see out to 60 feet ahead of us. Not so much with surprise. =/
As far as surprise + ambush, what actually happened one time is that we had to kill this cultist leader that was across a town square, but the square was very busy and he didn't know we were around, so I went up to the second floor of an Inn across the square, made sure I was well hidden, and sent the rest of the party downstairs. I was just at the end of the longest range of my crossbow, meaning disadvantage, but that was negated by the advantage from Assassinate, so I took the shot, took him down in one hit from Assassinate, then snuck downstairs and crossed the square with the party to take out his Ogre bodyguard and some other cultists. Pretty fun encounter overall, and very satisfying.

As far as poison goes, I've considered using poison a few times, but haven't looked into it too much - so far it seems pretty basic in this edition, and a little confusing? There's the "poisoned" status, which gives disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks, but there's also "poison damage", which I guess is just a damage type, and then I think there might be other specific poisons, though the only one in the PHB is "Poison, Basic" which just adds 1d4 poison damage, and takes an action to apply. At least as far as I can tell, there doesn't seem to be a risk of poisoning yourself while applying the poison, which is nice.


@ DragonSinged:

From what you're saying so far, assassinate has been hard to pull off but for some exceptions? I play in a larger group (6+ generally) and it is chaotic and rushed, generally. I have to imagine that benefit is all but lost on me in most circumstances.

For the purposes of backstory my Drow is going to begin as a Monk at 1, then take 2 rogue levels before finishing Monk 6/Rogue 2 at level 8. From there, I think I'm going to finish straight rogue. I think Assassinate at 9 will be timely, if at all useful.

As far as feats go, I am avoiding Alert -- which I believe you took -- in favor of Mage Slayer. The idea of shadow stepping behind the enemy wizard and leaving him gutted and useless is frankly too appealing to me. The other option I've considered is Magic Initiate. I had contemplated taking Warlock levels to armor myself with magical darkness, etc. but with Drow and Monk abilities to create darkness effects, it seems foolish. Wizard initiate would grant me Message (since I aim to sneak well ahead of the group and wouldn't mind communicating) and Prestidigitation (to snuff out fires/torches/candles - allowing for my darkvision and teleporting and assassination while most are left clueless) as cantrips, plus Mage Armor or something else 1/day, in addition to the Minor Illusion cantrip from Way of the Shadow.

I don't think I need to worry too much about ASI's -- our group still rolls 4d6 and takes the 3 highest for each ability score -- so having 2 or 3 high ability scores immediately isn't out of reach. 3 ASI's and 2 feats at level 20 seems reasonable, no?

Actually, on the contrary, with my group for the most part I've been able to use Assassinate at least once per battle (in the above example I pulled off twice - once vs the cultist leader, and once vs the ogre), and the only exceptions have been when we've been pushed into battles we couldn't see coming - due to magically limited vision as mentioned above, or due to the type of battle where it's like... we blow out a magic, evil candle, and get suddenly attacked by a bunch of Shadows or something. (BTW, large numbers of Shadows are super, super nasty. That strength damage is fast and lethal.) Buuuut, on the other hand, my group is really great about being cautious, scoping out threats as much as possible, and approaching fights carefully, so they're very willing to allow me to set up my Assassinations, knowing it's potentially one less enemy to deal with, or a large portion of health off of bigger threats. If your group is a bit more, uh, bull-dozery about things, and they just want to kick down the door and get the party started, then you might get a lot less mileage out of Assassinate, which would be sad.

As far as your build, Monk is fun, but there are advantages to starting as Rogue, and going to 2 or 3 - Expertise is useful all the time, Cunning Action is amazing, 2d6 Sneak Attack is useful every single combat (and it seems to work just fine vs undead and constructs in this edition, yay!), and Assassinate is frequently useful, and just makes you feel awesome when you pull it off, especially when you only pull it off due to being sneaky or having a great plan.
Mage Slayer definitely makes a lot of sense, considering how it seems like Shadow Monks might as well be renamed "Caster Hunters". Even if there aren't any shadows behind them, you can cast darkness so that it ends right behind them, Shadow Step into it, and then walk out and beat the snot out of them. Or, if your GM is willing to let it fly, maybe even use Minor Illusion to create some shadows - even better!

One thing to note about Mage Armor, is that in this edition it seems to be incompatible with the Monk's unarmored defence - it's pretty specific about the target's AC becoming 13 + Dex, rather than just giving you a bonus as it did in 3.5. However, I gotta say, getting ahold of Prestidigitation and using it to put out torches and such is pretty genius, that's a very sneaky move. Again, you might want to talk to your GM and ask if Minor Illusions cast shadows - if so, then it stands to reason that putting an illusion of a cloth or a block of wood or whatever over a torch would block out the light, saving you needing to get Prestidigitation in the first place. I know some people on these forums would say that it wouldn't work (and that's a totally valid opinion), but I don't think there's any rules that specify, or I haven't seen them in this edition, so in the end it's a GM call, and probably not bad odds that they'd go for it.

Hope this helps!

[b4ndito]

Actually, on the contrary, with my group for the most part I've been able to use Assassinate at least once per battle (in the above example I pulled off twice - once vs the cultist leader, and once vs the ogre), and the only exceptions have been when we've been pushed into battles we couldn't see coming - due to magically limited vision as mentioned above, or due to the type of battle where it's like... we blow out a magic, evil candle, and get suddenly attacked by a bunch of Shadows or something. (BTW, large numbers of Shadows are super, super nasty. That strength damage is fast and lethal.) Buuuut, on the other hand, my group is really great about being cautious, scoping out threats as much as possible, and approaching fights carefully, so they're very willing to allow me to set up my Assassinations, knowing it's potentially one less enemy to deal with, or a large portion of health off of bigger threats. If your group is a bit more, uh, bull-dozery about things, and they just want to kick down the door and get the party started, then you might get a lot less mileage out of Assassinate, which would be sad.

No one in our campaigns has played a true rogue, so I am hoping to teach them what it's like. Hopefully I'll get my opportunity to set up assassinations more often. It works even if you've beaten the enemy's initiative roll, right?


As far as your build, Monk is fun, but there are advantages to starting as Rogue, and going to 2 or 3 - Expertise is useful all the time, Cunning Action is amazing, 2d6 Sneak Attack is useful every single combat (and it seems to work just fine vs undead and constructs in this edition, yay!), and Assassinate is frequently useful, and just makes you feel awesome when you pull it off, especially when you only pull it off due to being sneaky or having a great plan.
Mage Slayer definitely makes a lot of sense, considering how it seems like Shadow Monks might as well be renamed "Caster Hunters". Even if there aren't any shadows behind them, you can cast darkness so that it ends right behind them, Shadow Step into it, and then walk out and beat the snot out of them. Or, if your GM is willing to let it fly, maybe even use Minor Illusion to create some shadows - even better!

I can definitely see the advantage to starting out as a rogue, if for nothing else the skill proficiency options. It just doesn't feel right. Monk 1/Rogue 2 for cunning action, then Monk 6/ Rogue 2. I'll get the ASI or either feat at level 6, then the extra attack, then shadow step by 8. I won't be doing optimized damage, I imagine, but soon enough I can do 2-4 sneak attacks in a round or 2 then disengage.


One thing to note about Mage Armor, is that in this edition it seems to be incompatible with the Monk's unarmored defence - it's pretty specific about the target's AC becoming 13 + Dex, rather than just giving you a bonus as it did in 3.5. However, I gotta say, getting ahold of Prestidigitation and using it to put out torches and such is pretty genius, that's a very sneaky move. Again, you might want to talk to your GM and ask if Minor Illusions cast shadows - if so, then it stands to reason that putting an illusion of a cloth or a block of wood or whatever over a torch would block out the light, saving you needing to get Prestidigitation in the first place. I know some people on these forums would say that it wouldn't work (and that's a totally valid opinion), but I don't think there's any rules that specify, or I haven't seen them in this edition, so in the end it's a GM call, and probably not bad odds that they'd go for it.

Hope this helps!

Yeah Mage Armor won't work. But grease, disguise self, and find familiar could all have benefits. This feat selection would be mostly flavor with some opportunity mixed in, so I have to decide how much I want it. If I don't end up playing Drow I'll probably go Human and take this feat first level. Sunlight disadvantage sounds awful.

[DragonSinged]

No one in our campaigns has played a true rogue, so I am hoping to teach them what it's like. Hopefully I'll get my opportunity to set up assassinations more often. It works even if you've beaten the enemy's initiative roll, right?



I can definitely see the advantage to starting out as a rogue, if for nothing else the skill proficiency options. It just doesn't feel right. Monk 1/Rogue 2 for cunning action, then Monk 6/ Rogue 2. I'll get the ASI or either feat at level 6, then the extra attack, then shadow step by 8. I won't be doing optimized damage, I imagine, but soon enough I can do 2-4 sneak attacks in a round or 2 then disengage.



Yeah Mage Armor won't work. But grease, disguise self, and find familiar could all have benefits. This feat selection would be mostly flavor with some opportunity mixed in, so I have to decide how much I want it. If I don't end up playing Drow I'll probably go Human and take this feat first level. Sunlight disadvantage sounds awful.

If you have surprise specifically (the enemy didn't see you coming, didn't know they were about to be in combat) then you get your full assassination bonus, meaning any attacks vs surprised creatures are auto-crits. This does mean that if you have more than one attack, you could potentially get more than one assassination during the surprise round.
If you've only beaten their initiative roll, but don't have surprise, then Assassinate gives you advantage on your attack, but not the auto critical.

Also, you can only get sneak attack damage once per turn. This means even if you have 4 different attacks, only one of them can benefit from sneak attack damage. However, because it's once per turn and not once per round, if you get any attacks of opportunity or attacks during other creature's turns, you can trigger sneak attack damage again then.

If you're used to rules from previous editions, make sure you re-read any spells you plan on taking. Grease, I've noticed, while still good, has lost some utility it had in earlier editions.
Find Familiar seems like it could be fun! I've seen some debate on the forums here about whether an Owl familiar could use flyby attack to deliver a "help" action in combat to give you advantage (and thus sneak attack) - some say it won't work because you can only help with actions you can take yourself, and your familiar can't attack. However, taking a bat familiar essentially gives you 60 ft blindsight, which is pretty great.

[DragonSinged]

So we finally played again last weekend - for the record at this time Merk is Rogue(Assassin) 3/Monk 2.
We only had a couple combats this session, one vs a crazy/possessed wizard (yay for passing dex check vs fireball!) and his pet water weird (cleric actually had "destroy water" prepared from our stint in the underworld, water weird eliminated with 1 spell), and one combat at sea vs a dragon turtle - in that combat I got to shine. Also, out of combat we realized that between bonus action dash and unarmored movement, Merk can run as fast as a horse - 120 ft per round. This came up while dashing across a city to save the cleric's life.

So during this session the amazing speed of the character came up twice - once in the above example, and the other explained below.

Our party was hired to track down a ship that was lost at sea. We were given 3 islands where the ship might be wrecked - Red Island, Turtle Island, and Wolf Island. My character tells the party, "It's at Turtle Island. It's always Turtle Island." (That's called roleplaying a high wisdom score, folks!)
Before leaving, I suggest the casters revise their prepared spells for an adventure at sea (Wisdom score!), and we hire a ship and depart. The druid uses druidcraft to predict a storm at sea, which allows the captain to prepare, and we eventually find turtle island. 5 perception rolls over 20 and we see the wreckage of the ship we're seeking - it's always Turtle Island. We take the ships rowboat towards the island, and part way there my character spots a spikey shell parting the waves ahead.

Merk points out the creature ahead and yells for water walk from the cleric, and then jumps off the front of the ship. The turtle was 70 feet away, so this is where the rogue+monk mobility really shined (shone?) - Merk ran 40 feet across the top of the waves, bonus dashed the remaining 30, attacked with advantage due to being highest initiative (Assassin), giving him sneak attack damage (about 35, no crit because no surprise), then moved the remaining 10 feet to try drawing the creature away from the boat.
It was a very anime moment.

[Person_Man]

DragonSinged, thanks for sharing. Your game sounds awesome.

How did you get 35 damage without a crit as a Rogue 3/Monk 2 with one attack? Wouldn't the damage be 1d6+2d6 (Sneak Attack) + Dex, for a maximum of 23?

[DragonSinged]

DragonSinged, thanks for sharing. Your game sounds awesome.

How did you get 35 damage without a crit as a Rogue 3/Monk 2 with one attack? Wouldn't the damage be 1d6+2d6 (Sneak Attack) + Dex, for a maximum of 23?

You might be right - the game was 2 days ago and I'm going off memory. I'll break down my attack -
Quarterstaff (as mentioned early in the thread, monk weapons cleared as finesse by DM)
1d8+2d6+3 = .. max 23, like you said, and I doubt I did max. Maybe I'm remembering poorly, and did about 20 on that first attack? I'll talk to the DM and see what he remembers. Oy, sorry if I misrepresented that, I'll check my numbers better next time. Either way, though, I still felt pretty great with the dashing across the waves.

Also! The monks unarmored movement eventually allows them to run across water, but I am uncertain how that works. I can see 3 options, which are (in descending usefulness)

1 - The monk has permanent water walk.
2 - The monk can water walk continually as long as the monk moves at least once per turn.
3 - The monk must end its movement on a solid surface or sink.

Has anyone seen any clarifications on this? Otherwise, opinions?

[Mandragola]

I've tended to think it's option 3, in that you can move across water while moving but have to end your turn on something solid and vaguely level. But obviously that's kind of "turn-based thinking" in that our characters don't in fact stop moving when it's their turn - their movement allowance represents how far you can move over the duration of a turn.

There are balance issues too though. If you could always run up a wall and end your turn where nobody could reach you, that would be odd.

[EvanescentHero]

Also! The monks unarmored movement eventually allows them to run across water, but I am uncertain how that works. I can see 3 options, which are (in descending usefulness)

1 - The monk has permanent water walk.
2 - The monk can water walk continually as long as the monk moves at least once per turn.
3 - The monk must end its movement on a solid surface or sink.

Has anyone seen any clarifications on this? Otherwise, opinions?

Personally I'd go with option three as a DM. It makes the most sense to me that the monk can use the water for short times, but not extended ones. Plus I don't feel right letting them run up a wall and stand there either. Same principle as the water, really.

Plus, I just noticed in the description of the ability, it says: "...you gain the ability to move along vertical surfaces and across liquids on your turn without falling during the move." (PHB page 78, emphasis mine.)

[MrStabby]

I just wanted to say thanks to people here. Not only is it a pleasure to read this, but also as a person who has not yet had a huge amount of time to actually play these classes it gives me an idea on how to have fun with them.

[chillichico]

This is my first time posting and soon will actually be my first ever long-term (hopefully) campaign!
I've been scouring the internet looking for good advice for a Shadow Monk character. I'm so glad I found one!

But I have a question about the Mobile feat. How useful or redundant would it be alongside Cunning Action and Step of Wind? One other description online made it sound like Mobile was a means to string together free action disengages and Flurry Stun several enemies in one turn. Even if it's inefficient in damage, it sounds kinda fun to pull off. Does it even work that way? :smallconfused:

[Person_Man]

But I have a question about the Mobile feat. How useful or redundant would it be alongside Cunning Action and Step of Wind? One other description online made it sound like Mobile was a means to string together free action disengages and Flurry Stun several enemies in one turn. Even if it's inefficient in damage, it sounds kinda fun to pull off. Does it even work that way? :smallconfused:

Probably not.

The Mobile Feat increases your speed, improves Dash, and allows you to avoid an Opportunity Attack from a creature you attack.

So in theory you could use your Action to attack, use your Bonus Action to make another attack with TWF or Martial Arts or Flurry, or maybe use your Bonus Action to Dash, maybe mix in some Stunning Strike, and then move far away from your enemies without fear of being hit by Opportunity Attacks thanks to the Mobile Feat.

But in practice, that's rarely going to happen.

A Stunned creature is Incapacitated, and thus can't take Actions or Reactions (like Opportunity Attacks). Dungeons are generally cramped spaces, and so you generally don't need to move very far to get behind an ally and away from enemies. DMs generally don't keep precise track of everyone's position if you're using the theater of the mind (which is the default for 5E). Mooks can generally be killed in 1-2 hits. Combat in general is very quick.

So there are plenty of situations where Cunning Action OR Step of Wind OR Mobile might be useful. But it would be a rare/corner case where having Cunning Action or Step of the Wind AND Mobile would be useful together.

[Mara]

That's correct. Nearly all Rogue/Monk builds are predicated on the assumption that you're DM's not a jerk, and will allow the Monk to trigger Sneak Attack with Monk weapons/UAS. If they are a jerk... don't play with them. :)

Really, really stupid RAW loophole.

(Yes, some people would still take Rogue 3 for assassin even without the house rule, but meh.) Is it not raw that a finesse weapon is one you add dex for to-hit and damage?

Seems to me that if you are doing that with your fist then you could sneak attack.

[Yagyujubei]

Is it not raw that a finesse weapon is one you add dex for to-hit and damage?

Seems to me that if you are doing that with your fist then you could sneak attack.

sadly no, RAW is finesse weapon is one that is marked finesse. a weapon is not finesse because you can use DEX mod. you can use DEX mod because a weapon is finesse.

PS. none of this matters because you can just say you're holding a dagger in one hand and make your first attack with that. even if you're wielding the dagger, you get MA damage dice, and it counts for sneak attack.

[Person_Man]

Martial Arts not counting as a Finesse weapon is not an oversight or a mistake.

The designers specifically considered the issue, and decided not to allow Unarmed Strike or Druid/Wildshape natural weapons or Cantrips that are modified by Dexterity from working with Sneak Attack, because doing so gives a multiclass Rogue/Whatever higher at-will damage then a strait Rogue, Monk, Druid, or spellcaster.

[Easy_Lee]

Martial Arts not counting as a Finesse weapon is not an oversight or a mistake.

The designers specifically considered the issue, and decided not to allow Unarmed Strike or Druid/Wildshape natural weapons or Cantrips that are modified by Dexterity from working with Sneak Attack, because doing so gives a multiclass Rogue/Whatever higher at-will damage then a strait Rogue, Monk, Druid, or spellcaster.

Adding to this point, I suspect that this is part of the reason why quarterstaves were changed from being finesse to having the versatile property. Certain feats and features, particularly polearm mastery, would be extremely effective on a rogue relative to a Fighter, given the nature of the class.

In short, I believe that the designers realized just how strong sneak attack is, and went out of their way to make it tricky to use with a multiclass build and impossible to use with most weapons.

[MrStabby]

AFB at the moment but I think Finesse weapons are themed to do piercing or slashing damage. A DM would probably be wise to require any other weapons used for sneak attacks to do one of these types of damage.

I know when I have DMed for improvised weapons I have required them to be light and do slashing or piercing damage to benefit from sneak attack.

[Demonic Spoon]

AFB at the moment but I think Finesse weapons are themed to do piercing or slashing damage. A DM would probably be wise to require any other weapons used for sneak attacks to do one of these types of damage.

I know when I have DMed for improvised weapons I have required them to be light and do slashing or piercing damage to benefit from sneak attack.

There is nothing in the book that states this is the case, and this effectively removes one of the traditional 'rogue' weapons (sap).

[Easy_Lee]

AFB at the moment but I think Finesse weapons are themed to do piercing or slashing damage. A DM would probably be wise to require any other weapons used for sneak attacks to do one of these types of damage.

I know when I have DMed for improvised weapons I have required them to be light and do slashing or piercing damage to benefit from sneak attack.

It is true that all finesse and ranged weapons (not counting thrown, which don't qualify) are slashing or piercing. That said, there does not seem to be a major advantage to one weapon damage type or another this edition. I suspect their piercing / slashing thing is mostly flavor.

It's unfortunate, since a rogue with maces is rather a fun idea. I can imagine that hitting someone in a vulnerable spot with a big hammer could be every bit as damaging as doing so with a rapier.