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Dhavaer
2007-04-04, 06:46 PM
I'm making a homebrew setting (again) and decided to mess around with the classes. This is what I came up with:

Barbarian: Fire and Cold Resistance 2 at 9th level, +1 every third level thereafter.
Cleric: +1/2 BAB, 1d4 HD, 4 + Int skills, light armour proficiency, spontaneously cast domain spells as well as cures, no turn/rebuke undead, Lore ability (as Cloistered Cleric). Domain spells are added to normal spells per day. At 10th and 20th level, Clerics gain one additional domain, chosen from their deity's domains as normal.
Druid: Spells per day as a bard. Shapeshift variant form PHB2.
Fighter: Replaced by Knight.
Monk: Removed, combined with Paladin.
Paladin: Remove Disease on spell-list, not as SLA. Gains the [Good] subtype at level 10. Gains a deflection bonus to AC equal to a monk’s. Can be any Good alignment. Full caster level.
Ranger: Gains full caster level and animal companion progression.
Sorcerer: Replaced by Shadowcaster. Casts mysteries /encounter, or /minute when out of combat.
Hexblade: Gains good Fort save, full caster and familiar progression, Spell Focus (Illusion) to bonus feats list, and 1 spell/day for each level. Loses Spell Focus (Transmutation) from bonus feats list.
Warlocks: can be any alignment, but have the [Evil] descriptor.
Wizard: replaced by Wu Jen.

silentknight
2007-04-04, 06:49 PM
Okay. What kind of feedback you looking for.

Rama_Lei
2007-04-04, 06:49 PM
So you made the ranger a druid, sans wildshape? Paladin sounds good, but you nerfed clerics.

Shiny, Bearer of the Pokystick
2007-04-04, 06:58 PM
Sounds alright to me; I'm curious, did you replace wizards with Wu Jen out of flavor concerns, or as a balance issue? And if the latter, what were your reasons?

Fax Celestis
2007-04-04, 06:58 PM
So you made the ranger a druid, sans wildshape? Paladin sounds good, but you nerfed clerics.

They needed it.

Dhavaer
2007-04-04, 07:06 PM
Sounds alright to me; I'm curious, did you replace wizards with Wu Jen out of flavor concerns, or as a balance issue? And if the latter, what were your reasons?

Little of both. I see Wu Jen as being more balanced because they have a much smaller spell list, so they don't have the ability to do everything.


So you made the ranger a druid, sans wildshape?


Sans higher level spells, too.

Lemur
2007-04-04, 07:09 PM
So you made the ranger a druid, sans wildshape?

I think what he means about full caster progression for rangers and hexblades is that their caster level is equal to their level, and not half their level. I don't think he's done anything to their actual spells per day and spells known.

I'm also going to assume that classes not listed, like bard and rogue, are still in the game, just left unchanged.

The only thing I'm confused about is why fighters were removed completely :smallconfused:

Annarrkkii
2007-04-04, 07:36 PM
I presume that clerics at least keep their armor proficiencies, don't they? I fully realize that clerics need nerfing, but you just made it THE least desirable class to play on the list. I mean, no better at fighting than the wizard, no more survivable than the wizard, committed entirely to healing the rest of the party (as the only high-level progression healing class), and has to burn healings on itself to save those flimsy d4s... AND can't turn/rebuke? You realize that totally deprives them of every single [Divine] feat from Complete Divine?

Maybe a little over the top on the nerfage.

But I like a lot of those revisions. Merging the paladin/monk was a wise move, making them flavorfully different as well as mechanically, but I'd advocate changing the AC bonus back to insight, as the deflection bonus is most likely gonna get overriden by other spells (shield of faith and the like). Unless that was intentional as an alternative to those.

Dhavaer
2007-04-04, 07:40 PM
I presume that clerics at least keep their armor proficiencies, don't they?


Cleric: +1/2 BAB, 1d4 HD, no armour proficiencies, spontaneously cast domain spells instead of cure/inflict, no turn/rebuke undead.

Clerics are a full caster, just like Wu Jen, so they get the same stats as Wu Jen. They can always dip a level in Knight, Paladin or something similar and get their armour proficiencies back if they really want them.


But I like a lot of those revisions. Merging the paladin/monk was a wise move, making them flavorfully different as well as mechanically, but I'd advocate changing the AC bonus back to insight, as the deflection bonus is most likely gonna get overriden by other spells (shield of faith and the like). Unless that was intentional as an alternative to those.

It was intentional. The do get to wear full plate, after all.

Edit: I just noticed I hadn't put in that Paladins get full caster level like Hexblades and Rangers.

Annarrkkii
2007-04-04, 07:55 PM
::shame::

Can't believe I missed that. Oh, well.

But I still don't know if I agree 100%. Granted, they are a "full caster" slot, but they really can't do as much as a Wu Jen as far as... doing anything other than healing. The dropping Spontanteous Healing makes them less effective a healer, but it doesn't change them getting that role. They are the only class with ready access to things like Heal and Remove Curse and the like, and are going to be dumped with preparing buff spells. As such, I feel they deserve a little compensation. But that's just me. I do understand that it is more than possible to make a potent blaster cleric, but I still find that occurrence less-than-likely in the standard party.

Does Tome of Battle fit anywhere in your world?

Kel_Arath
2007-04-04, 08:20 PM
you killed clerics like a mo, and buffed the hell outa pally and rangers.

brian c
2007-04-04, 08:24 PM
I'm disappointed by your Monk-removal; and it seems that Paladins would be a pretty damn strong class now. I like the Druid and Cleric nerfs though. No CoDzilla! Not yours!

Dhavaer
2007-04-04, 08:31 PM
Does Tome of Battle fit anywhere in your world?

It would, but I don't have it.

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-04, 08:36 PM
Wow...
Um, why do you hate clerics so much? I can understand some of that, but seriously, you killed them. A Druid is much better healer with these modifications. You completely destroyed everything there is to a cleric. Wu Jens stand in the back, away from battle and blast. A cleric has to be in battle, thus they need survivability (higher hit dice and armor proficiencies). Then you pump Paladins, Rangers, and Hexblades which I personally don't have much experience with but I have deemed them balanced. However, I do agree with you replacing fighter (I use Warblade instead) since they are underpowered.

My 2cp.

Dhavaer
2007-04-04, 08:41 PM
A Druid is much better healer with these modifications.

Really? They get spells slower, and far less per day.

Tellah
2007-04-04, 10:04 PM
I'd give the Cleric back his spontaneous casting of healing spells. As-is, any player who picks a cleric in your setting would take the healing domain anyway. The change to spontaneous domain casting basically precludes the use of strange, fun domains, which I would be hesitant to do away with. Furthermore, much of the reason the cleric has decent combat ability is to make up for having crappier spells. I say nerf the spells or nerf the combat ability, but don't do both.

But hey, if your players want to play a cleric that's lackluster in combat and fills all his spell slots with healing and buffs, carry on.

Raum
2007-04-04, 10:29 PM
What is your end goal? Are you trying to balance to a specific power level or just making changes to fit your campaign's flavor?

And I'm still not clear on the "full caster"...are you saying the Ranger's caster level is equal to his class level or that he gains spells as a full caster such as a cleric or druid? I'm guessing the former since you didn't contradict Lemur, but your terminology isn't clear.

TheOOB
2007-04-04, 10:34 PM
you killed clerics like a mo, and buffed the hell outa pally and rangers.

And yet the clerics are still infinatly better then paladins and rangers.

Seriously though, since divine casting isn't quite as powerful as arcane (usually), clerics need something to make them equal to their arcane counterparts.

Dhavaer
2007-04-04, 10:50 PM
I'd give the Cleric back his spontaneous casting of healing spells. As-is, any player who picks a cleric in your setting would take the healing domain anyway. The change to spontaneous domain casting basically precludes the use of strange, fun domains, which I would be hesitant to do away with. Furthermore, much of the reason the cleric has decent combat ability is to make up for having crappier spells. I say nerf the spells or nerf the combat ability, but don't do both.

Agreed, I'll put the spontaneous healing back.


And I'm still not clear on the "full caster"...are you saying the Ranger's caster level is equal to his class level or that he gains spells as a full caster such as a cleric or druid?

'Full caster level' means exactly what it says, caster level equal to character level instead of half.


Seriously though, since divine casting isn't quite as powerful as arcane (usually), clerics need something to make them equal to their arcane counterparts.

I'd disagree with this; their spell list for most divine casters might be slightly weaker, but the lack of need for rest, no spell failure for armour and knowledge of all spells on their list makes divine casting stronger for the most part.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-04, 11:02 PM
What you did to clerics makes them vastly inferior to arcanists, except for the healing thing. Divine casting is a stronger type (no failure, etc) but that's for the same reasons that divine casters get all that other jazz: Arcane Spells are just that much better. From Glitterdust to Time Stop, from debuffs to control to social spells, arcane magic is vastly more powerful on almost all fronts.

Edit: also, the Shapeshift variant already balances the druid with other balanced classes--I don't really think that giving them the bard's spells/day is necessary. In fact, with the shapechange variant and that, they're just a mediocre warrior.

Behold_the_Void
2007-04-04, 11:04 PM
Clerics should definitely get something. More skill points might be a good start, as well as some abilities. At least bonus feats or something, that's a whole lot of levels with absolutely nothing going on.

Dhavaer
2007-04-04, 11:10 PM
Hmm... okay, maybe a bonus feat at 1st and every fourth level for clerics, and/or 4+Int skills and possibly a larger list, too. Possibly an extra domain at 10th and 20th level?

Jasdoif
2007-04-04, 11:16 PM
...what's with adding an alignment subtype to the warlock? What good is it that you can be any alignment if you always take damage as though you were evil (on top of what your alignment actually is)?

Dhavaer
2007-04-05, 01:05 AM
...what's with adding an alignment subtype to the warlock? What good is it that you can be any alignment if you always take damage as though you were evil (on top of what your alignment actually is)?

That's a flavour thing. Warlocks always have the fiendish background in this world, so they detect as Evil. I might give them those heritage feats as bonus ones to make up for it.

clericwithnogod
2007-04-05, 03:33 AM
Cleric: +1/2 BAB, 1d4 HD, no armour proficiencies, spontaneously cast domain spells as well as cures, no turn/rebuke undead.

You can't fight, making a good number of spells on the cleric list completely worthless and also have so few HPs and such a bad AC that you can't even move up to heal someone in combat without getting yourself killed. Being relegated to being a secondary character who can only heal/buff other party members is awful enough, but this goes beyond even that to making the character do it poorly as well. There is no redeeming feature here. Do you actually have a player in your group that would play this?

Jack Mann
2007-04-05, 04:09 AM
I like a lot of the changes you made, but I agree that the cleric is nerfed too badly. Clerics don't have spells that are as good as arcanists, and the best spells they have assume that they're warriors. Right now, they're pretty much back to their 2nd edition role, where the only thing they can do well is heal. Remember how fun it was to play a cleric in 2nd? Yeah, me neither. Back then, you played a cleric because no one else would play the class, and they promised you could be something fun the next time. And with your variant, they can't even do that in battle, since they aren't sturdy enough to survive an attack.

They're still a bit necessary, but they're not much fun to play, since they become a walking first aid kit.

You might consider the cloistered cleric. They still get light armor proficiency, d6 HD, and 6+Int skill points, plus their Lore ability. This gives them some out-of-combat use and the ability to at least go up and heal people. If you either take away the big three buffs or make them touch instead of personal, you'll have someone who can at least keep up with combat without being able to dominate the game.

Jannex
2007-04-05, 04:10 AM
Cleric: +1/2 BAB, 1d4 HD, no armour proficiencies, spontaneously cast domain spells as well as cures, no turn/rebuke undead.

If you're looking to make clerics less ridiculous and take them out of the "tank AND full-caster" role, here's what I'd consider:

+1/2 BAB, d6 HD, light armor proficiency, keep turn/rebuke but get rid of the divine feats that go off of turn attempts, spontaneously cast cure/inflict and domain spells. Maybe also 4+Int skills/level, but that could just be me.

I figure that your average priest isn't quite as frail as the wizard who spends most of his time mewed up in a tower researching spells, and light armor gives him a little more survivability when he has to make his way up to the front lines to heal the party tank. Still, he isn't tromping around in full plate, and with 1/2 BAB he isn't doing the tank's job for him.

I kept turn/rebuke because otherwise undead become a lot harder for the party to handle. Your rogues and other types with precision damage still can't touch 'em, and your arcane casters are somewhat less effective, so you can rely on them less to blast 'em. Especially since your cleric can't go toe-to-toe in front-line combat with undead to let off a touch-range cure spell for damage, turning becomes a vital strategy. And without the divine feats that cheese it, you're a lot safer letting clerics have it.

Otherwise, I figure the party's better off with a Bard packing cure wands as their healer.

Jannex
2007-04-05, 04:20 AM
You might consider the cloistered cleric. They still get light armor proficiency, d6 HD, and 6+Int skill points, plus their Lore ability.

I keep hearing about cloistered cleric, and it interests me because it's quite possibly the only way I could ever convince myself to play a cleric outside of gestalt (still, probably not, since prepared casting makes me want to stab myself in the eye, but maybe), but I can never remember what sourcebook it's in. Where can I find it?

Jack Mann
2007-04-05, 04:26 AM
It was originally in Unearthed Arcana, but you can find it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric).

Dhavaer
2007-04-05, 04:27 AM
Cloistered Cleric is in Unearthed Arcana, and can also by found on the online SRD.

Edit: Gave Cleric Lore and Light Armour.

Edit 2: Also gave 4+Int skills.

Jannex
2007-04-05, 04:29 AM
Ah, thanks. :smallsmile:

daggaz
2007-04-05, 04:32 AM
Yeah. Your cleric nerf is way over the top. All the reasons posted above (I would NEVER play one in your campaign) and I'll add one more thing...Why get rid of turning? Its a cool, defining class feature, fluff wise. Mechanically, its not all that good anyhow. You need to just ban retardedly broken feats, like half the Complete Divine, not remove the class ability.Like so many other things in DnD, the class isn't broken, the splatbooks are.

Jack Mann
2007-04-05, 04:38 AM
Heh. You're a funny guy, Daggaz. The worst broken stuff in D&D is mostly in core.

Dhavaer
2007-04-05, 05:21 AM
Do you actually have a player in your group that would play this?

I don't have a group, I just like making campaign settings.


Why get rid of turning?

It's an unweildy mechanic that doesn't fit well with the rest of the system, it's useless beyond very low levels except against a very few enemies and it serves no real fluff purpose.

Edit: Added extra domains to Cleric.