Trying to make an Evangelist of Nethys (Help Please)

[5w337x7007h]

I've come to the conclusion that I can best make a Sorcerer that follows Nethys, but I want to be an avid follower as well. So I'm building into the Evangelist Prestige Class presented in the Inner Sea Gods book.

So far I've got a basic build up to Lvl 2,

Str 7
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 20

Arcane Bloodline with a Hare as his familiar. What's a magician without his rabbit? (Good for distracting enemies if he can perform well enough)
I'm basically adapting the reality manipulator build from this guide, A Quick Guide to Pathfinder Sorcerers (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1aixPcR_eT0re47tG_HfisyjS58NE93MIQcutPA7kSaE/edit#heading=h.xsvwwan4iizz), but I realize that I'll be losing an effective level in Sorc due to the transition. Is this a good idea?

[avr]

First, while the arcane bloodline is solid, you don't have to take it to get a familiar. In the familiar folio you get the option to trade your 1st level bloodline power for a familiar. This is a good trade for most bloodlines. The figment archetype would make for a fun magician's familiar IMO.

I seriously wouldn't get into summoning as an arcane bloodline sorcerer. You don't get to speed up summoning like the good classes for it do, and you don't get the bonuses of the sorcerer bloodlines which do summoning. Losing a level to evangelist makes this a bad joke. Try an arcanist with the occultist archetype maybe? You can get a familiar as an exploit if you choose.

Alternately, you could not go for summoning. An arcane bloodline sorcerer is made to do metamagic.

[5w337x7007h]

I'm stuck playing the Sorcerer, but I can still change the spell focus and augment summoning, but which feats should I replace them with? Also, should I even attempt going into the Evangelist prestige class?

[avr]

At this level a debuff metamagic and a trait (even via the Additional Traits feat; Spell Focus is more useful if you can get the trait normally) to reduce the level of one metamagiced spell are pretty good. e.g. Snowball + Rime Spell, or Magic Missile + Toppling spell gets good next level. Color Spray + Lingering Spell works for instant cover or to give any CMB-using friends something to push enemies into.

Later on Persistent Spell is the way and the light.

[5w337x7007h]

I don't know if my GM allows traits, I'd have to ask, but if he says no, would I do well to just add Deific Obedience, or should I subvert the whole idea of Evangelist. Please read the prestige class and make sure I'm reading the "Aligned Class" ability correctly. Evangelist Prestige Class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist)

Edit: Deific Obedience can't be taken until atleast 3rd level

[5w337x7007h]

So far, I don't see any downside to going the path of the Evangelist except that I don't get my 20th level ability, and I have to use a feat for Deific Obedience.

Could I use a Robe of Arcane Heritage to compensate for that?

[The Vagabond]

So far, I don't see any downside to going the path of the Evangelist except that I don't get my 20th level ability, and I have to use a feat for Deific Obedience.
Delayed spellcasting progression, which, if you consider the School Savant Arcanist and Exploiter Wizard as examples, are worth all of the following:
1- 2 arcanist exploits
2- The ability to sacrifice spells to gain more stuff to refill your resoviour
3- 4 more cantrips
4- All the versatily of a sorcerer's usage of her spells per day.

So that's three things, for one lost level. You gain about two feats, a recharge method, and 4 cantrips for losing a single spell level in comparison to losing a level.
You're losing two.

Another example (Admitably, a 3.5 example), is gaining Extend Spell for free at level 6, adding three spells from another class onto your list if your a cleric or such, a skill focus, an extra monster with Summon Monster, and increasing HD of planar binding spells by two.

To put it kindly, a spell level is worth A LOT.

[5w337x7007h]

You guys are pointing out what I'm losing, but not what I'm gaining... Also I'm not going Arcanist so please stop pushing that subject!

I'm gaining 8 skills per level, +2 dodge bonus, three divine boons according to the Evangelist boon list, two automatic languages, that could be any I choose, even dead languages, and a +4 sacred/profane bonus to any skill I have no ranks in, lets not forget Spiritual Form which is granted at the end of the prestige class. +4 to a chosen ability score, and a choice of wings, gills, or a natural attack with temporary appendage if necessary.

I get all this and the only thing I need to do is perform the obedience once a day, which is easy enough even in inhospitable conditions. I have nothing to write with? I'll prick my finger and use my own blood to write a blessing of Nethys or a partial spell, finishing with anything that involves magic. It's snowing? I'll piss in the snow. Nothing in the obedience states medium, method, or how long it needs to last.

P.S. I also gain everything up to 19th level Sorcerer, except for hit dice, base attack bonuses, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks. Which are all replaced by Evangelist. Note that I go up from d6 to d8 in class hit dice.

[5w337x7007h]

I apologize, I'm not trying to be rude, but I don't want to be pushed away from building a Sorcerer/Evangelist. It follows my character path and comes with some benefits I'd like to keep.

I understand that an Arcanist would be cool and all, but I don't want to be an arcanist. I want to be a Sorcerer and prestige into Evangelist, empowering people with magic and spreading the faith that is Nethys.

The Cube is the Red is the Sphere.

All I ask is, where should I go if not to boost conjuration? I'm looking for versatile spells and anything to boost that versatility.

[Feint's End]

You guys are pointing out what I'm losing, but not what I'm gaining... Also I'm not going Arcanist so please stop pushing that subject!

I'm gaining 8 skills per level, +2 dodge bonus, three divine boons according to the Evangelist boon list, two automatic languages, that could be any I choose, even dead languages, and a +4 sacred/profane bonus to any skill I have no ranks in, lets not forget Spiritual Form which is granted at the end of the prestige class. +4 to a chosen ability score, and a choice of wings, gills, or a natural attack with temporary appendage if necessary.


Nothing of these is especially good though and certainly not worth losing a spell level over.

That said there is nothing inherently wrong about it and you are still a pretty solid caster with some nice gimmicks so if you want it then just go for it.

I don't really see what we can do for you other than that though. You seem pretty much set on everything already. Or are you looking for gear?

[avr]

No traits (metamagic won't be useful without them for a couple of levels), not in any way a gish, so what else to spend your feats on? The obedience feat isn't a bad idea, at this level you'll fail concentration checks sometimes. Spirit's Gift will help protect your familiar, or you could get a useful Spell Focus. You might grab Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd and metamagics at 5th and 7th.

I guess at mid levels you'll be a social butterfly with all the skills. You might plan for that with illusions (maybe Spell Focus: Illusion?) and disguise spells. The Major Image may be a help there.

[Kudaku]

What race are you? Evangelist isn't terrible but I'd try to enter it as soon as possible - having the right SLA would let you enter it at level 4 rather than 6.

Evangelist also mixes beautifully with a Sage bloodline sorcerer, but I'm guessing it might be too late to do a complete rebuild.

[5w337x7007h]

What race are you? Evangelist isn't terrible but I'd try to enter it as soon as possible - having the right SLA would let you enter it at level 4 rather than 6.

Evangelist also mixes beautifully with a Sage bloodline sorcerer, but I'm guessing it might be too late to do a complete rebuild.

I'm human, and as far as I know there are only two prereqs for Evangelist,
Have Deific Obedience and base attack bonus +5, 5 ranks in any skill other than Knowledge (religion), or ability to cast 3rd-level spells. None of which come until at least 5th level, Though I am all ears on what would allow me to get to Evangelist at 4th level.

[Kudaku]

I'm human, and as far as I know there are only two prereqs for Evangelist,
Have Deific Obedience and base attack bonus +5, 5 ranks in any skill other than Knowledge (religion), or ability to cast 3rd-level spells. None of which come until at least 5th level, Though I am all ears on what would allow me to get to Evangelist at 4th level.

This FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow) states that SLAs count as being able to cast a spell of the SLA's level. In order to meet Evangelist's spellcasting requirement, you need a third level SLA. The easiest way is to simply be an Aasimar (who gain a Daylight SLA), or have a level of wizard with the scryer subschool. There's probably other sources of 3rd level SLAs as well, but nothing springs to mind.

[5w337x7007h]

That would mean I lose a bonus feat, which means I'd start with Eschew Materials and Spell Focus (Conj), then get Deific Obedience at 3rd level so I can progress into Evangelist at 4th.

[Kudaku]

That sounds right, yes. :smallsmile:

[meschlum]

You guys are pointing out what I'm losing, but not what I'm gaining... Also I'm not going Arcanist so please stop pushing that subject!

I'm gaining 8 skills per level, +2 dodge bonus, three divine boons according to the Evangelist boon list, two automatic languages, that could be any I choose, even dead languages, and a +4 sacred/profane bonus to any skill I have no ranks in, lets not forget Spiritual Form which is granted at the end of the prestige class. +4 to a chosen ability score, and a choice of wings, gills, or a natural attack with temporary appendage if necessary.

I get all this and the only thing I need to do is perform the obedience once a day, which is easy enough even in inhospitable conditions. I have nothing to write with? I'll prick my finger and use my own blood to write a blessing of Nethys or a partial spell, finishing with anything that involves magic. It's snowing? I'll piss in the snow. Nothing in the obedience states medium, method, or how long it needs to last.

P.S. I also gain everything up to 19th level Sorcerer, except for hit dice, base attack bonuses, saving throw bonuses, and skill ranks. Which are all replaced by Evangelist. Note that I go up from d6 to d8 in class hit dice.

On the purely numbers level, you could be tempted by an alternate approach:

Advanced Nightmare Being (templates) - these also cost you 1 level in the long term, and give a lot. You also get the same spellcasting progression, and no real requirements besides being probably NE.

So let's compare!

Level 6:




Evangelist
Template


Hit Points
3d6 + 3d8 + 6 * Con
5d6 + 5 * Con + 10


Skill Points
30 + 6 * Int
10 + 5 * Int + 15


Skills
Two extra trained
+2 to all (or more for Int (+3) / Dex (+4) / Cha (+4) skills)


Bonus Spells
None
+8 Cha, so level 1/2 extra


Spell DC
Normal
+4


AC
Normal
+3


SLA
Normal
Lots


Feats
3 base, requirements
3 base, no requirements


Defence
Normal
Limited flight, DR / silver, Regeneration, Protection from Good...


Saves
Normal
+2 Fort / +4 Ref / +2 Will (+4 vs. illusions)


Attack
BAB +3, normal Init
BAB +2, +2 to hit in melee (Str, +2 Damage too), +5 to hit at range (Dex), +5 Init



Level 11




Evangelist
Template


Hit Points
3d6 + 8d8 + 11 * Con
10d6 + 10 * Con + 20


Skill Points
70 + 11 * Int
20 + 10 * Int + 40


Skills
Two extra trained, +4 to untrained
+2 to all (or more for Int (+4) / Dex (+5) / Cha (+5) skills)


Bonus Spells
None
+10 Cha, so level 2x1/1x2/1x3/1x4/1x5 extra


Spell DC
Normal
+5, +9 with Shadow and Phantasm


AC
+2
+5


SLA
Some
More


Feats
6 base, requirements
5 base, no requirements


Defence
Normal
Limited flight, DR / silver, Regeneration, Protection from Good...
[tr]
Saves
Normal
+2 Fort / +5 Ref / +2 Will (+4 vs. illusions)


Attack
BAB +7, normal Init
BAB +5, +2 to hit in melee (Str, +2 Damage too), +5 to hit at range (Dex), +5 Init



Level 16




Evangelist
Template


Hit Points
6d6 + 10d8 + 16 * Con
15d6 + 15 * Con + 30


Skill Points
92 + 16 * Int
30 + 15 * Int + 60


Skills
Two extra trained, +4 to untrained
+2 to all (or more for Int (+4) / Dex (+5) / Cha (+5) skills)


Bonus Spells
None
+10 Cha, so level 2x1/1x2/1x3/1x4/1x5 extra


Spell DC
Normal
+5, +9 with Shadow and Phantasm


AC
+2
+5


SLA
Some, and transform
Many, and constant bonuses to all stats anyway


Feats
8 base, requirements
8 base, no requirements


Defence
Gills for limited time, limited time flight
Limited flight, DR / silver, Regeneration, Protection from Good...


Saves
Normal
+2 Fort / +5 Ref / +2 Will (+4 vs illusions)


Attack
BAB +10, normal Init (+2 if correctly transformed)
BAB +7, +2 to hit in melee (Str, +2 Damage too), +5 to hit at range (Dex), +5 Init



So you fall a bit behind on skills using the templates, but everything else is awesome. Besides the alignment bit, I suppose.

[5w337x7007h]

On the purely numbers level, you could be tempted by an alternate approach:

Advanced Nightmare Being (templates) - these also cost you 1 level in the long term, and give a lot. You also get the same spellcasting progression, and no real requirements besides being probably NE.

So let's compare!

Level 6:




Evangelist
Template


Hit Points
3d6 + 3d8 + 6 * Con
5d6 + 5 * Con + 10


Skill Points
30 + 6 * Int
10 + 5 * Int + 15


Skills
Two extra trained
+2 to all (or more for Int (+3) / Dex (+4) / Cha (+4) skills)


Bonus Spells
None
+8 Cha, so level 1/2 extra


Spell DC
Normal
+4


AC
Normal
+3


SLA
Normal
Lots


Feats
3 base, requirements
3 base, no requirements


Defence
Normal
Limited flight, DR / silver, Regeneration, Protection from Good...


Saves
Normal
+2 Fort / +4 Ref / +2 Will (+4 vs. illusions)


Attack
BAB +3, normal Init
BAB +2, +2 to hit in melee (Str, +2 Damage too), +5 to hit at range (Dex), +5 Init



Level 11




Evangelist
Template


Hit Points
3d6 + 8d8 + 11 * Con
10d6 + 10 * Con + 20


Skill Points
70 + 11 * Int
20 + 10 * Int + 40


Skills
Two extra trained, +4 to untrained
+2 to all (or more for Int (+4) / Dex (+5) / Cha (+5) skills)


Bonus Spells
None
+10 Cha, so level 2x1/1x2/1x3/1x4/1x5 extra


Spell DC
Normal
+5, +9 with Shadow and Phantasm


AC
+2
+5


SLA
Some
More


Feats
6 base, requirements
5 base, no requirements


Defence
Normal
Limited flight, DR / silver, Regeneration, Protection from Good...
[tr]
Saves
Normal
+2 Fort / +5 Ref / +2 Will (+4 vs. illusions)


Attack
BAB +7, normal Init
BAB +5, +2 to hit in melee (Str, +2 Damage too), +5 to hit at range (Dex), +5 Init



Level 16




Evangelist
Template


Hit Points
6d6 + 10d8 + 16 * Con
15d6 + 15 * Con + 30


Skill Points
92 + 16 * Int
30 + 15 * Int + 60


Skills
Two extra trained, +4 to untrained
+2 to all (or more for Int (+4) / Dex (+5) / Cha (+5) skills)


Bonus Spells
None
+10 Cha, so level 2x1/1x2/1x3/1x4/1x5 extra


Spell DC
Normal
+5, +9 with Shadow and Phantasm


AC
+2
+5


SLA
Some, and transform
Many, and constant bonuses to all stats anyway


Feats
8 base, requirements
8 base, no requirements


Defence
Gills for limited time, limited time flight
Limited flight, DR / silver, Regeneration, Protection from Good...


Saves
Normal
+2 Fort / +5 Ref / +2 Will (+4 vs illusions)


Attack
BAB +10, normal Init (+2 if correctly transformed)
BAB +7, +2 to hit in melee (Str, +2 Damage too), +5 to hit at range (Dex), +5 Init



So you fall a bit behind on skills using the templates, but everything else is awesome. Besides the alignment bit, I suppose.

My only question on this is, how would I be able to gain the template? Is it just randomly granted, or do I earn it?

[5w337x7007h]

Yeah.. I doubt my DM would be cool with this idea. I'd most-likely have to earn it in some way shape or form.

[VexingFool]

I'm currently running a human sorcerer in a Carrion Crown game who is planning on going Evangelist of Nethys. I took the Seeker and Wildblooded(Sage) archetypes because the group needed someone to cover some skill gaps. The Evangelist levels should help me keep my skills up and give me some extra abilities without hurting my spellcasting too much.

I don't plan on taking Evangelist until Level-7 because my group of warrior types would whine if I didn't have haste asap.:smallamused: It will also allow me to take 2 extra 1st level and 1 extra 2nd level spell known with the Human FCB.

[meschlum]

My only question on this is, how would I be able to gain the template? Is it just randomly granted, or do I earn it?

Advanced is a simple template, so there aren't really any details on how to get it. It also grants +2 Natural Armor, which I forgot to include.

Nightmare Creature is an Acquired template (and also Inherited), so you can pick it up in game by performing the proper ritual / being at the right place / appeasing the GM.

Still, the reliance on GM permission may be more of an issue than taking the prestige class.

[5w337x7007h]

Well I could probably get the GM to be cool on gaining the Nightmare template, but Advanced would be tricky. I plan on imbedding Ioun Stones if and when I find them.

Check out the Seekers of Secrets, it explains the process in there.

[meschlum]

So a Nightmare Haunted One. Highly thematic, all Acquired templates so open to negotiation wth the GM, and fairly tasty attribute bonuses on top of skill boosts.

Levels 6 to 10: +4 Con, +4 Dex, +4 Int, +2 Wis, +6 Cha. Worse skill points and BAB than the Evangelist, better hit points and AC, better magical defenses and spell like abilities, a bonus language, one daily instance of +20 to any Knowledge, all Knowledges are trained, Vision 1/day.

Levels 11+: +4 Con, +6 Dex, +6 Int, +2 Wis, +8 Cha. Skill points and BAB are still lower, hit points and AC are better, even more magic, more uses of Vision and +20 to Knowledge.

Looks respectable, in all. Compared to Advanced, you have worse AC, saves, skill points, and melee ability, as well as lower Charisma. You get impressive Knowledge rolls and interesting scrying albeit limited at low levels).

[5w337x7007h]

I'll see what I can do, but overall this is going to be chaotic, because the group is mainly good, and one dwarf isn't above smashing my skull in if I'm really that evil.

[5w337x7007h]

I guess the best question would be, How could I suppress or direct the fear aura, so I don't scare away my teammates. Or leave them shaken for the duration of the day, until they get another save.

[5w337x7007h]

Alright, I'll go straight Sorc, but my character is still an avid follower of Nethys and a citizen of Nex, character backstory.

I'm getting craft rod at 9th level, it'll definitely be helpful at later levels when I need certain rods and I can share them with other casters in the party for a price. If I remember correctly, I don't need the feat to make the rod, it'd be a spellcraft of 27 to make one if I'm missing the prerequisite feat.

[Psyren]

I don't know of a way to supress auras, but you could always clear the shaken condition from anyone who fails their save every morning (unfortunately, the only way I know of to truly remove it is a bard spell.)



I'm getting craft rod at 9th level, it'll definitely be helpful at later levels when I need certain rods and I can share them with other casters in the party for a price. If I remember correctly, I don't need the feat to make the rod, it'd be a spellcraft of 27 to make one if I'm missing the prerequisite feat.

No - the crafting feat is the one prerequisite you can never bypass by raising the DC. The best you can do is cooperate with someone (e.g. a helpful NPC or a cohort) who has the feat you're missing.

[5w337x7007h]

No - the crafting feat is the one prerequisite you can never bypass by raising the DC. The best you can do is cooperate with someone (e.g. a helpful NPC or a cohort) who has the feat you're missing.

I meant I don't need the metamagic feat. I remember the rules clearly stating that you need the crafting feat to make the item.

[Psyren]

I meant I don't need the metamagic feat. I remember the rules clearly stating that you need the crafting feat to make the item.

Ah, gotcha - yes, that's correct, you can make metamagic rods without having the metamagic feat.

[5w337x7007h]

Is there any way I could boost my skill without the skill focus feat?

[Psyren]

Is there any way I could boost my skill without the skill focus feat?

- boost intelligence
- Aid Another (familiar etc.)
- Masterwork tool
- Arcane Reinforcement spell

[Peat]

Why not just take Divine Obedience and not bother with Evangelist?

You'll get the Exalted boons instead, but that's ok for you.

First thing you'll get is the +4 bonus to Concentration. That's useful for you, if that was the only thing you got it would be a decent fit. That you'll get the rest of the Exalted boons a long time later is, well, gravy.

That way you're losing no levels and still a devout follower of Nethys.

I think Evangelist is a fantastic PrC, and your initial plan wouldn't be awful, but you're not getting the most out of it if you're just taking it to be a religious arcane caster - better to concentrate on your class and just take the feat.


This FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qow) states that SLAs count as being able to cast a spell of the SLA's level. In order to meet Evangelist's spellcasting requirement, you need a third level SLA. The easiest way is to simply be an Aasimar (who gain a Daylight SLA), or have a level of wizard with the scryer subschool. There's probably other sources of 3rd level SLAs as well, but nothing springs to mind.

Svirfneblin, but the bad news is that if you go back and look at that link, they changed it recently and it now says:

"Only if the pre-requisite calls out the name of a spell explicitly. For instance, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat. However, the barghest's dimension door would not meet requirements such as "Ability to cast 4th level spells" or "Ability to cast arcane spells"."

There was even a thread on it recently. So, that's out.

[5w337x7007h]

So here are the feat modifications..

1 Eschew Materials (b), Spell Focus (Conj), Spell Focus (Illus), 3 Craft Wondrous Item, 5 Greater Spell Focus (Conj), 7 Improved Familiar, Improved Initiative, 9 Persistent Spell, 12 Dazing Spell.

That's what I'm going for, since I'm cutting the whole Evangelist idea out.

[Kudaku]

Svirfneblin, but the bad news is that if you go back and look at that link, they changed it recently.


Indeed. That post was made three weeks ago, they changed it last wednesday if memory serves. I don't really oppose the SLA change, but I really wish they'd included solutions to the problems the old FAQ ruling solved at the same time. :smallfrown:

[5w337x7007h]

So I'll replace Improved Familiar with greater spell focus (Conj) and get Deific Obedience at 5th level.

[animewatcha]

How is your DM about you devoted yourself to mage school/guild? Inner sea Magic page 23. Look at White grotto. Summon things that help with back stage work.

[Peat]

Indeed. That post was made three weeks ago, they changed it last wednesday if memory serves. I don't really oppose the SLA change, but I really wish they'd included solutions to the problems the old FAQ ruling solved at the same time. :smallfrown:

Mea culpa! Didn't notice the date.

And yes, me too.

[5w337x7007h]

At what level should I get improved familiar, because I would like backup where my familiar hides and pings everyone with a wand of magic missile, or something like that.

[Kudaku]

Mea culpa! Didn't notice the date.

And yes, me too.

No worries! I considered tracking this thread down to mention the changed FAQ, but it had disappeared off the front page so I figured the author was unlikely to keep reading it. Thanks for posting the update. :smallsmile:

[Psyren]

At what level should I get improved familiar, because I would like backup where my familiar hides and pings everyone with a wand of magic missile, or something like that.

The different familiars have different level requirements (see the table) so just get the one you want as soon as possible to improve its utility and survivability.

[5w337x7007h]

The different familiars have different level requirements (see the table) so just get the one you want as soon as possible to improve its utility and survivability.

Alright, I'll do that then, but what is recommended for a wand-using sidekick to a Sorcerer who follows Nethys?
I'm trying to decide which creature is best for the idea. I'm thinking a dust mephit is the best choice though because of it's alignment.