Convert 3.5 Psionics for 5e

[Tonden Ockay]

Hi all

I bought the 3.5 PHB, DMG, and Monsters Manual, but after reading them decided not to play 3rd edition. I really liked 2nd Edition and didn't like where 3rd went. That said I always thought that 2nd edition Psionics were over powered.

I never like 4th edition as well. For me it was too much like a WoW board game.

I have the 5th edition PHB and I like everthing I have read so far. I can see my self playing this edition. Our gaming group really enjoyed playing Dark Sun. So we will need Psionics for 5th edition and WotC may another year or two to come out with Psionics for 5th edition.

All that said I have been looking into which of the editions seemed to do a better job of try to balance Psionics the best. From what I have read it looks like 3.5 may have done the better job so far. But that is just from what I have researched so far because I never played 3.0, 3.5, or 4th. So my question is there anyone trying to convert 3.5 Psionics to 5th.

Could you just drop the feats from 3.5 and use the rest of the system for 5e? Would it be better to use the 5e save system to see if your power works or the 2e Dark Sun system with Mental attack roll vs Mental AC?

My group and I would really be grateful for any and all help with this.

Thanks for your time.
Tonden Ockay

[asorel]

Not my work, but you may want to check this (http://boldpueblo.com/downloads/5e/5e-houserule-psionic-classes.pdf)out.

[CrusaderJoe]

5e DMG has a spell point variant that seems pretty cool.

Use a bard/cleric/sorcerer, perhaps change the spell list, and use the spell point system. Boom psion.

Valor Bard/Cleric/EK Fighter could make a good Psionic Warrior...

Wild Sorcerer Spell Point system? Wilder.

[Tonden Ockay]

Not my work, but you may want to check this (http://boldpueblo.com/downloads/5e/5e-houserule-psionic-classes.pdf)out.

Thanks for this

However I have seen a lot of different class make ups like this one. But I was wanting true Psionic powers and not caster spells as powers. This is why I asked if anyone has seen or is working on a 3.5 Psionics Handbook conversion for 5e?

Thanks for posting the link its just not what I'm looking for is all.

Tonden Ockay

[Tonden Ockay]

Ok but what if you want to use all the true Psionic Powers? There are Psionic powers that are not caster spells right? What about all those powers you lose by doing it that way?

[SharkForce]

to actually reproduce psionics to a 5th edition standard as anything more than a refluff would be a huge amount of work, likely requiring a great deal of playtesting to get it right. it's the sort of thing I'd mostly only expect a company to do, and so far as I know the only company that I would consider remotely likely to take on a full psionics system rewrite for any edition of D&D is currently busy doing a bunch of pathfinder stuff and has not even hinted at the possibility of doing anything for 5e (which is a bit of a shame, 'cause I'd love to see how some of those classes would fit into 5e).

alternately, it is something that I could see becoming a community effort as well. but it's definitely not something I'd expect to see one person do alone (and to get a community effort going, you'd need someone to organize it at the very least).

on the plus side, as far as dark sun coming out officially, I'd say it's probably one of the more well-liked settings. on the negative side, their next arc has already been announced and it's all about elemental stuff, so I'd say you're probably right about it not coming out in the near future.

honestly, if you like 2nd edition, I would say that fixing up 2nd edition psionics to be a bit more balanced would likely be the faster solution. the main problem with the majority of the powers is that some of them can be gained way before you expect those sorts of abilities... just put level requirements on a few more powers (so no disintegrate at level 1 any more), tweak the wild talents rules to not allow the level-restricted powers (or just not gain those until the appropriate level) and possibly add saves to the powers that don't have them and should (there are only a few), and it's probably more balanced than it appears on an initial glance.

(alternately, if you just want to use 5e and are hoping for 5e psionics as a fan project, well, you're probably gonna have to be the one to get that going =S )

[Eslin]

Ok but what if you want to use all the true Psionic Powers? There are Psionic powers that are not caster spells right? What about all those powers you lose by doing it that way?

Then you're going to have to do months worth of work or wait until the release. The kind of work that goes into having a well balanced, well thought out and interesting subsystem of that nature is the reason we have companies to make the games for us - they do the work, we pay them money for that work. The best you're going to get for now is reskinned magic.

[Tonden Ockay]

to actually reproduce psionics to a 5th edition standard as anything more than a refluff would be a huge amount of work, likely requiring a great deal of playtesting to get it right. it's the sort of thing I'd mostly only expect a company to do, and so far as I know the only company that I would consider remotely likely to take on a full psionics system rewrite for any edition of D&D is currently busy doing a bunch of pathfinder stuff and has not even hinted at the possibility of doing anything for 5e (which is a bit of a shame, 'cause I'd love to see how some of those classes would fit into 5e).

alternately, it is something that I could see becoming a community effort as well. but it's definitely not something I'd expect to see one person do alone (and to get a community effort going, you'd need someone to organize it at the very least).

on the plus side, as far as dark sun coming out officially, I'd say it's probably one of the more well-liked settings. on the negative side, their next arc has already been announced and it's all about elemental stuff, so I'd say you're probably right about it not coming out in the near future.

honestly, if you like 2nd edition, I would say that fixing up 2nd edition psionics to be a bit more balanced would likely be the faster solution. the main problem with the majority of the powers is that some of them can be gained way before you expect those sorts of abilities... just put level requirements on a few more powers (so no disintegrate at level 1 any more), tweak the wild talents rules to not allow the level-restricted powers (or just not gain those until the appropriate level) and possibly add saves to the powers that don't have them and should (there are only a few), and it's probably more balanced than it appears on an initial glance.

(alternately, if you just want to use 5e and are hoping for 5e psionics as a fan project, well, you're probably gonna have to be the one to get that going =S )

Ya I guess if we used the 2e Dark Sun Psionics system and added level requirements to the powers it could plug right into 5e

We might just do that till 5e Psionics comes out.

[SharkForce]

huh. my thinking was actually to run 2e psionics in 2e.

for 5e, I'd make a point of comparing similar spell effects where possible and taking that into consideration as far as possible changes that might be required as well to bring 2e powers in line. for example, 2e hold effects just lasted several rounds, while 5e hold effects give a save every round to break free.

so, a psionic power that basically paralyzes you should most likely have similar limitations in effect to bring it up to a 5e standard.

and so on.

[RedMage125]

First off, I agree on 2nd ed psionics. It's hard to tell if it was worse or slightly better than 1e in terms of balance, however. Both were pretty horribly broken.

3.0 psionics had some very good ideas that unfortunately ended up being very broken when those ideas were put into mechanics.

3.5e made psionics feel more balanced, assuming you were going off the magic/psionics transparency rules which was the default. Using the "psionics are different" variant could make a psionic character hard to stop against non-psionic ccreatures.

4e, for all it's faults, made psionics VERY balanced. Psionic, like Martial, Arcane, or Divine, was just another power source. The use of Power Points to Augment At-Wills in place of Encounter powers was an interesting dynamic that didn't drastically alter the power balance of the group, and in-party balance was the name of the game in 4e (from a design perspective, anyway).

One more thing on 4e. 4e did Dark Sun and did it WELL. Remember how 2e Dark Sun used starting character level of 3 and used 3d4+8 for stats? Well, 3.5e (in Dragon Magazine) attempted to go with introducing "Athasian races" including Human, Dwarf, Elf, etc, that all had level adjustments, which also made including the thri-kreen or half-giant easier.

4e Dark Sun introduced "themes", which were available to any class, and added some extra power ("Core" 4e later brought more themes into 4e, but for awhile they were DS-exclusive). On top of that, the way they were able to incorporate "magic item" bonuses without using items and gave hard and fast rules for DMs on alternate systems of "wealth" to be handed out made it very easy to DM a Dark Sun game that kept the "low wealth" FEEL of Dark Sun, without drastically altering the core system.

[CrusaderJoe]

4e Dark Sun introduced "themes", which were available to any class, and added some extra power ("Core" 4e later brought more themes into 4e, but for awhile they were DS-exclusive). On top of that, the way they were able to incorporate "magic item" bonuses without using items and gave hard and fast rules for DMs on alternate systems of "wealth" to be handed out made it very easy to DM a Dark Sun game that kept the "low wealth" FEEL of Dark Sun, without drastically altering the core system.

It wasn't magic item bonus. It was inherent bonuses. You go a bit stronger as you leveled up so that the math was fixed without magic weapons.

Just like what we are calling a proficiency bonus in 5e. The biggest difference is that prof bonus is geared toward specific areas of your character and inherent bonuses went to pretty much everything.

Once inherent bonuses was instated into 4e I never looked back. I stripped all the magic weapons of their +'s and just gave them the properties.

I believe 3.5 also had a system somewhat like inherent bonus system in one of the splat books but I'm not sure if it worked well or not.

[RedMage125]

It wasn't magic item bonus. It was inherent bonuses. You go a bit stronger as you leveled up so that the math was fixed without magic weapons.

Just like what we are calling a proficiency bonus in 5e. The biggest difference is that prof bonus is geared toward specific areas of your character and inherent bonuses went to pretty much everything.

Once inherent bonuses was instated into 4e I never looked back. I stripped all the magic weapons of their +'s and just gave them the properties.

I believe 3.5 also had a system somewhat like inherent bonus system in one of the splat books but I'm not sure if it worked well or not.

Inherent bonuses, yes. I had a brain fart and could not think of the word "inherent", lol. That's why "magic item" was in quotes.

3.5e and 4e were both big on the concept of Wealth By Level, and it was vital to characters being able to hit creatures of an appropriate level, and survive encounters with them. Dark Sun's inherent bonus not only meant you didn't have to hand out lots of magic items, but, combined with weapon breakage, meant all gear was potentially temporary.

[CrusaderJoe]

Inherent bonuses, yes. I had a brain fart and could not think of the word "inherent", lol. That's why "magic item" was in quotes.

3.5e and 4e were both big on the concept of Wealth By Level, and it was vital to characters being able to hit creatures of an appropriate level, and survive encounters with them. Dark Sun's inherent bonus not only meant you didn't have to hand out lots of magic items, but, combined with weapon breakage, meant all gear was potentially temporary.

Meh, no worries, just figured I would help out. I do the same thing every so often. I didn't mean to sound upity or anything, if I did.

4e actually could be played with no magic items if you use the inherent bonus system and one feat (expertise feat). The biggest reason wbl didn't matter is not because of this inherent bonus system though. The biggest reason is because everyone got to do stuff and didn't need to become a Christmas tree in order to keep up with the game or other players. It wasn't that classes were equal to each other, some were not (no matter how balanced the game is said to be), but each class kept up with the game and gave cool options.

5e has taken this lesson from 4e and hid it in a package that looks like 3.5. You don't need WBL because of the inherent system (proficiency bonus) and the fact everyone can keep up with the game on some way. Its just sad that the only way martials can keep up with the game is through damage only... :/

[Tonden Ockay]

Meh, no worries, just figured I would help out. I do the same thing every so often. I didn't mean to sound upity or anything, if I did.

4e actually could be played with no magic items if you use the inherent bonus system and one feat (expertise feat). The biggest reason wbl didn't matter is not because of this inherent bonus system though. The biggest reason is because everyone got to do stuff and didn't need to become a Christmas tree in order to keep up with the game or other players. It wasn't that classes were equal to each other, some were not (no matter how balanced the game is said to be), but each class kept up with the game and gave cool options.

5e has taken this lesson from 4e and hid it in a package that looks like 3.5. You don't need WBL because of the inherent system (proficiency bonus) and the fact everyone can keep up with the game on some way. Its just sad that the only way martials can keep up with the game is through damage only... :/

So would 4e psionics be easier to convert over to 5e then? More so then 2e psionics would?

[AirApparent]

So would 4e psionics be easier to convert over to 5e then? More so then 2e psionics would?

That would be an interesting take. Maybe start with a Warlock chassis and a number of power points instead of spell slots. They have Cantrips (more than a regular caster) that one can spend power points on to upgrade to other effects. Example:

Level 10 psion with the Friends cantrip
1 power point: instead cast Charm Person
7 points: Instead cast Dominate Person.

Edit: I think it would need more power points than what a warlock converted would give, but that was my thought process

[Tonden Ockay]

to actually reproduce psionics to a 5th edition standard as anything more than a refluff would be a huge amount of work, likely requiring a great deal of playtesting to get it right. it's the sort of thing I'd mostly only expect a company to do, and so far as I know the only company that I would consider remotely likely to take on a full psionics system rewrite for any edition of D&D is currently busy doing a bunch of pathfinder stuff and has not even hinted at the possibility of doing anything for 5e (which is a bit of a shame, 'cause I'd love to see how some of those classes would fit into 5e).

I for one really like everything I have seen/read about 5e so far so. As for Pathfinder well I never liked 3.0, 3.5, or Pathfinder so I wouldn't be a fan of them doing 5e Psionics. Plus I wouldn't think they would want to help WotC with what seems like might become bigger then their own game. So I would like WotC to do 5e Psionics to top it all off.

[SharkForce]

I for one really like everything I have seen/read about 5e so far so. As for Pathfinder well I never liked 3.0, 3.5, or Pathfinder so I wouldn't be a fan of them doing 5e Psionics. Plus I wouldn't think they would want to help WotC with what seems like might become bigger then their own game. So I would like WotC to do 5e Psionics to top it all off.

pathfinder (or rather, paizo, which is who I presume you mean) hasn't done psionics at all, so far as I can tell. a third party company did psionics for pathfinder, and they are the only ones I could even imagine wanting to put in the effort to do it for 5e. if they decided to, they wouldn't be risking killing off their own game at all; they write for pathfinder now, but it isn't their system by any means.

if they ever did do 5e psionics, though, I would expect that they would do the research and come out with a pretty solid product designed to feel like earlier editions but fit in well with the rest of 5th edition. I just wouldn't hold my breath on it coming any time soon :P

(and seriously, WotC doesn't have some magical ability to produce good quality products... they only have the ability to make *official* products. they can, and indeed have, made a number of products that were very poorly received, as well as a number of products that were very well received. I personally would rather have a good psionic system, regardless of source, than spend too much time worrying about who made it. if WotC come up with good psionics rules, then certainly, I would welcome those rules. if not, well, I'm not going to be happy about it just because it's official)

[Tonden Ockay]

(and seriously, WotC doesn't have some magical ability to produce good quality products... they only have the ability to make *official* products. they can, and indeed have, made a number of products that were very poorly received, as well as a number of products that were very well received. I personally would rather have a good psionic system, regardless of source, than spend too much time worrying about who made it. if WotC come up with good psionics rules, then certainly, I would welcome those rules. if not, well, I'm not going to be happy about it just because it's official)

I would agree :)

[CrusaderJoe]

So would 4e psionics be easier to convert over to 5e then? More so then 2e psionics would?

Probably.

4e psionics system would be fun.

(Spitball)

Mind Lock
At-Will: Wisdom save or take 1d4 damage and next attack has advantage against target. At level x,y,z gain additional 1d4 damage.

1PP: Wisdom save or take Nd4 damage and be slowed. Target gets a save each round at the end of their turn.

2PP: May target 2 creatures within 60' with At-Will or 1PP version

3PP: Target is paralyzed unless they pass a wisdom save. Target gains wisdom save at end of each round.


Edit

I would vote for Dreamscarred Press doing Psionics. I hate the classes that paizo has made (not a fan of the pathfinder system as I rather just play 3.5 classes and rules) but DSP has made some cool Psionics. Though they may be to close to oaizo to take a job from wotc.

[Tonden Ockay]

Well I would be nice to have some other company do it if WotC isn't going to do in in the next year. I for one would like to play Dark Sun by the end of the year or at least by this time next year. I like our groups homebrewed world over all the other worlds. But then again I like DMing the unknown in a savage world.
So I do not care to see and will not buy the other worlds. I will just be waiting for Dark Sun.

[CrusaderJoe]

Well I would be nice to have some other company do it if WotC isn't going to do in in the next year. I for one would like to play Dark Sun by the end of the year or at least by this time next year. I like our groups homebrewed world over all the other worlds. But then again I like DMing the unknown in a savage world.
So I do not care to see and will not buy the other worlds. I will just be waiting for Dark Sun.

With the success of 4e Darksun and the popularity of the setting in general I could see it coming out sooner rather than later.

However you should try spelljammer. It has the savage and unknown that you like plus is pairs up very very very well with darksun.

[Myzz]

I like the idea of just using the Sorcerer, changed to either an Int or Wis caster class. Change the spell list to more mental themed powers and effects. Fluff all damage effects to Psychic. Perhaps create a cantrip that does Psychic and has a stun adder on a failed wis save.

The other option is to use warlock, again changing the spells list, and invocations list. Create a new Patron route, and perhaps add a new Pact Boon, and probably prohibit Pact of the Tome. And reworking eldritch blast into a Psycic Blast, perhaps having a stun adder invocation like agonizing blast. And fluff all dmg effects to psychic as well...

I think I like the warlock chasis a bit more, but it does require more work. But I also like Psions having twinned concentration effects...

[AirApparent]

For that psychic and stunning cantrip, Vicious Mockery provides very apt crunch.

[asorel]

I like the idea of just using the Sorcerer, changed to either an Int or Wis caster class. Change the spell list to more mental themed powers and effects. Fluff all damage effects to Psychic. Perhaps create a cantrip that does Psychic and has a stun adder on a failed wis save.

The other option is to use warlock, again changing the spells list, and invocations list. Create a new Patron route, and perhaps add a new Pact Boon, and probably prohibit Pact of the Tome. And reworking eldritch blast into a Psycic Blast, perhaps having a stun adder invocation like agonizing blast. And fluff all dmg effects to psychic as well...

I think I like the warlock chasis a bit more, but it does require more work. But I also like Psions having twinned concentration effects...

Sorcerer makes the most sense thematically. I feel that raw mental power would best be represented by INT, rather than WIS. Also, we only have one other class that has INT as a primary stat. Furthermore, WIS seems to be mostly a divine magic stat.

[Chronos]

Quoth Tonden Ockay:

Ok but what if you want to use all the true Psionic Powers? There are Psionic powers that are not caster spells right? What about all those powers you lose by doing it that way?
I don't think this is actually a significant issue. Most 3.x psionic powers were basically the same as equivalent spells (many of them even just had a name of "psionic <spell name>", and a text of "as the <spell name> spell"). Some of them were not equivalent to spells, and so would not end up making the transition this way, but then again, many 3rd edition spells also didn't make the transition to 5e. If you're going to say "It's not real psionics unless it includes Ego Whip", then you might as well also say "it's not real wizard spellcasting unless it includes Shrink Item".

Of course, if there are a handful of powers that you really just must have, then you can just homebrew that handful of powers. But you can just take most of the powers straight from the existing spell lists, and just include a note in your psion class description that psions usually call their spells "powers".

[iTreeby]

(alternately, if you just want to use 5e and are hoping for 5e psionics as a fan project, well, you're probably gonna have to be the one to get that going =S )

After you finish that could you do incarnum?

[Chronos]

I can't decide if that was sarcasm, or just soulmelded text.

[MinotaurWarrior]

If I wanted 3.5e style psionics, I'd probably use a mix of DMG spell points with sorceror-style metamagic. The conversion ratio of spell / sorcery points to spell slot levels is the same, so presumably it's reasonably safe to treat them as being equivalent.

Flexibility is power (10 9th level spells yo!) so I'd probably make this its own class or classes with kinda crappy class features. D6 HD, 1d4 weapons only, no armor, less-useful saves (or saves in what are otherwise dump stats), et cetera.

[charcoalninja]

So would 4e psionics be easier to convert over to 5e then? More so then 2e psionics would?

4e would be easy to convert.
Take the primary stat for your class: That's save 1. Take the secondary stat for your class: That's save 2.
All 4e math is replaced by 5e Proficiency bonus.
Feats and ability increases gained as per 5e casters
Any power that restores a healing surge worth of HP instead heals 1d6/2 levels of the character used on.
Healing surges are removed. Characters gain hit dice as per 5e.
Paragon Paths are still a thing and gained at 11th
4e level progress beyond level 20 is ignored.

And you're done. :)