how much extra damage for great weapon style?

[Susano-wo]

If a fighter is using great weapon style with a greatsword, how much if the average damage over the 7(plus crit) without it? (I don't know how to calculate anything other than simple combinatorial probability/averages--probabilities and averages with re-rolls are beyond me :smallredface:)

[Balor777]

anydice.com/program/52d1
Similarly d{1,2:2,3..12:14} is the formula for greataxe.
If you are half orc and/or barbarrian Greataxe is better.
If not GS is better.

[Mandragola]

To calculate the average with a dice roll you add up all the possible results, then divide by the total possible number of results.

So the average for a D6 is 1+2+3+4+5+6 (which adds up to 21) divided by 6. Average of 3.5

If you're going to reroll a 1 or 2, on average it will come back as a 3.5 the second time around. So to calculate the average for a D6 with GWM you add up 3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6 (which adds up to 25) by 6 and get 4.167. That's a 0.667 increase, or double that (1.334) with a greatsword.

I ran the numbers for bigger dice, and the results are as follows:

D8 average becomes 5.25 (from 4.5). Increase of 0.75

D10 average becomes 6.3 (from 5.5). Increase of 0.8

D12 average becomes 7.334 (from 6.5). Increase of 0.834

Overall then the increase in average damage isn't that huge. It's most with the greatsword by far, because it applies to both dice.

However there's another thing that GWM does, as well as improve average damage. It makes your damage more consistent. If you're a half-orc barbarian and you roll a 1 or 2 on your d12 for damage you are a sad panda. You probably flip the table and ragequit dnd entirely in fact. But if you get to reroll it, and it comes back an 8 or something, then all is well with the world. So it functions as an insurance policy. Monsters that would have survived will die thanks to GWM, meaning they don't attack back nobody else has to spend time hitting them.

For this reason I do like GWM. It isn't as good as duelist but at least it means there's some kind of reason to actually use a great weapon ever! Actually if there's one screw up with class design in 5th it's that barbarians gain fairly minimal benefit from using two-handers but become amazing tanks when using shields, but fighters get tons of attacks so should probably consider a two-hander... or of course duelist... so they get that extra damage more often. Personally I think fighters should be the ones tanking and barbarians should be damage dealers, but that's not how it's shaken out.

[bastyon]

A lot of the RAW for the style allows you to reroll ANY damage dice that is a one or a two - so criticals.... and buff dice (hunters mark, crusaders mantle|) and even Paladin Smites-- this style makes things really nasty. |"on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon|" it doesn't say damage dice for only that weapon's damage dice,... it says |"on a damage die|"
|Search the threads and see. it would probably be dm preference

[Susano-wo]

If you're going to reroll a 1 or 2, on average it will come back as a 3.5 the second time around. So to calculate the average for a D6 with GWM you add up 3.5+3.5+3+4+5+6 (which adds up to 25) by 6 and get 4.167. That's a 0.667 increase, or double that (1.334) with a greatsword.


This was the part I was unsure of yourself. If that's accurate...wow. the only real benefit is psychological. I mean, 1 1/3 pts of damage an attack. So a max with 4 attacks of 5 1/3 if I hit on all? with +3 str (starting fighter with a +2STR race), instead of 10 dpr its 11.33. or i can take AC, a hard to get resource, and one that adds %5.

And thinking about it, I can see why that is the average. But man, that seems underwhelming. Even a plus 2 bonus would feel a lot better, take less rolling, and just be better.
Looks like I'm gaining AC :smallbiggrin:

@bastyon: Yeah, I can see how that might push its usefulness up if you were multiclassing or had routine [+ weapon die] buffs from a magic user(hmm, I am going into EK, maybe I should check my spell selection before picking :D)

[Mandragola]

Honestly it's not so different to the other fighting styles in terms of damage output. They just don't add massive amounts regardless of what you pick. The two weapon one maxes out at +5 damage a turn, for example. Dueling does a bit more, but obviously that's set against not doing as much in the first place with a one-hander.

The thing is it's really really hard to model actual in-game stuff by this sort of thing. That's because in dnd there is a bunch of wasted damage when you overkill a monster.

The vast majority of calculations you'll see suggest a monster that doesn't die resulting in wasted overkill damage, and already has stuff like hunter's mark stuck on it, so actions are available for things like TWF. That's actually kind of hopeless as a way to calculate damage though in reality.

Consider this: your character's turn comes around. You've got two monsters facing you. One has 1hp left and the other has 70. Which one should you attack?

Obviously you should kill off the one on 1hp, so it doesn't hit you or one of your friends on its turn. But you just had a dpr of 1 so you look like an idiot.

Often in game the important thing is to hit something to finish it off so it doesn't get another turn, not to hit for huge damage. Stuff that gives you pluses to hit or more attacks is therefore seriously valuable than it appears in pure dpr calculations. Many accurate attacks, each perhaps not doing huge damage, is better than one or two huge swings. Even if your theoretical dpr is lower your practical ability to fight monsters can be better.

I really enjoy great weapon master because it gives you an incentive to do the right thing and finish off monsters, with a free hit on the next monster in line. I'm therefore finding that my 2h paladin, who uses a maul with GWF and GWM, works pretty well. GWM often means that I get another use of the bonus damage from GWF, which pushes its effectiveness up a notch.

In the end I think the fighting styles basically aren't all that strong. The damage increases are minor, and very often irrelevant due to overkill. But it's a bonus thing that doesn't cost you anything, so enjoy it. Just maybe don't bother with that fighter dip for your barbarian.

[Person_Man]

Basically it's just under +1 per die, which makes it the weakest Fighting Style unless you're rolling a lot of damage dice - Paladin Smite or Half-Orc Barbarian with extra crit die or just a high level Fighter with multiple attacks.

[Balor777]

Basically it's just under +1 per die, which makes it the weakest Fighting Style unless you're rolling a lot of damage dice - Paladin Smite or Half-Orc Barbarian with extra crit die or just a high level Fighter with multiple attacks.

I have to disagree on the smite.As its writen you deal extra radiant damage via the weapon.
On hunters mark yes.

On critical now how sure are we that you reroll the
crit damage dies?I dont have a clue on this.

[Boverk]

The expected value for a dN reroll the 1's and 2's is (N+1)/2 + (N-2)/N, so it's an increase of (N-2)/N over the standard roll.

[Susano-wo]

Often in game the important thing is to hit something to finish it off so it doesn't get another turn, not to hit for huge damage. Stuff that gives you pluses to hit or more attacks is therefore seriously valuable than it appears in pure dpr calculations. Many accurate attacks, each perhaps not doing huge damage, is better than one or two huge swings. Even if your theoretical dpr is lower your practical ability to fight monsters can be better.

Yeah, that is a good way of looking at it. Now I'm torn between the two. thanks!:smallyuk:

@personman: yeah, maybe, though I'm going to be using a greatsword, so I figure its going to be between this and the +1 Armor one :smallbiggrin:

[heavyfuel]

I have to disagree on the smite.As its writen you deal extra radiant damage via the weapon.

I was pondering this when answering a question on the RAW Q&A thread...

The way Smite is worded, it's damage dice in addition to the weapon's damage, but nowhere does it say that you deal the extra damage. And since it's a damage die dealt in addition to to the two handed weapon's, GWF applies regularly

[Gnomes2169]

GWF only applies to weapon dice. As elemental damage (say radiant from a smite, or a fire brand's fire damage) is not actually weapon damage (which is limited to slashing, piercing and bludgeoning), GWF shouldn't apply to smites by RAW. If your DM decides it does, then it's the only style for a paladin to take, but otherwise you can choose between whatever styles you want without penalty, really. GWF still gives you the highest consistent damage, duelist gives you the best defenses, archery never misses and twf just is "terrible" late game if you are a fighter (By, like, 2 points of damage/ round) but awesome early game.

[heavyfuel]

GWF only applies to weapon dice.

Where are you getting that from?


When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die

The attack must be made with a melee weapon, but no mention of weapon dice, simply damage dice (which Smite is)

[Gnomes2169]

Where are you getting that from?

The attack must be made with a melee weapon, but no mention of weapon dice, simply damage dice (which Smite is)

I'm getting it from the attack needing to be made with a melee weapon. The smite spells and class features are not weapons in and of themselves, their sources are from your class and spells respectively, so they shouldn't be included in the reroll category (same with superiority dice). That said, I suppose something like the Holy Avenger, Firebrand and Frostbrand all are valid targets, since they are inherently a part of the weapon and not a spell or class ability attached to it.

[heavyfuel]

I'm getting it from the attack needing to be made with a melee weapon. The smite spells and class features are not weapons in and of themselves, their sources are from your class and spells respectively

This doesn't matter. The fighting style is applies to damage dice, with no mention of source. You rolled a damage dice on an attack with a great weapon, you get to reroll