worst classes

[Kimras]

what do think is the worst classes in 3.x?

[j_spencer93]

most will say truenamer or monk most likely.

[Troacctid]

The three base classes in Complete Warrior collectively take the cake for me. They are just soooooo bad. They don't do anything.

And yes, worse than Monk or Truenamer, and it's not particularly close either.

[sideswipe]

commoner, warrior, aristocrat, expert (though has great uses) and samurai from complete warrior,

also soulborn and things like soul knife are considered pretty damn bad.

[sideswipe]

most will say truenamer or monk most likely.

i hate you so much for saying my favourite class....

[Jeff the Green]

Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Monk, Samurai, Truenamer, Knight, and Ninja.

That is, worst for the game and worst-designed, not least powerful.

[sideswipe]

Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Monk, Samurai, Truenamer, Knight, and Ninja.

That is, worst for the game and worst-designed, not least powerful.

the first 5 i agree with, as worst does not mean low quality. they are the worst for breaking your game and making all the others and the DM have a bad time.

[j_spencer93]

Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Monk, Samurai, Truenamer, Knight, and Ninja.

That is, worst for the game and worst-designed, not least powerful.

um might wanna note that some of these are for being game breaking while others just suck.

[Jeff the Green]

um might wanna note that some of these are for being game breaking while others just suck.

...I did. :smallconfused:

[ZamielVanWeber]

Truenamer is hard to pilot but does a couple of cool things. He's T4ish if you can make him work, hardly the worst.

CW Samurai is just plain bad. I have seen soulknife work literally once ever and I still had to do some houseruling ultimately because he dropped off hard. Soulborn's primary class feature is famous for being front loaded and doesn't come on line until long after it has stopped being particularly advantageous. Core only Fighter deserves a nod here for having no class features and nothing to spend his feats on.

[j_spencer93]

i apologize, i missed that fine print. the fine print gets me every time.

[Seppo87]

Do prestige classes count? I vote Forsaker and Reaping Mauler.

[Arbane]

I see the big game-breakers and Commoner have already been mentioned, so how about the ones with the worst capstone ability to look forward to?

If PrCs are allowed, Risen Martyr: it has the capstone ability of DYING.
Mountebank makes the Risen Martyr look good: it has the capstone ability of being dragged off to hell.

[eggynack]

As should be clear by this point, it rather depends on your definition of "worst". Personally speaking, I'd have to go with monk. Not just because it's weak, because while it is weak there are weaker out there, but because it is perhaps the class with the greatest difference between how powerful it looks and how powerful it is. It's your classic trap option, in other words, and I generally dislike those as a rule, especially when attached to something as fundamental to game states as class. Trap feats are somewhat less troublesome, by that same token. Considering the monk problem from a different direction, the issue is that its mechanics just don't live up to the promises made by its flavor, and that is also a troublesome thing.

[j_spencer93]

I see the big game-breakers and Commoner have already been mentioned, so how about the ones with the worst capstone ability to look forward to?

If PrCs are allowed, Risen Martyr: it has the capstone ability of DYING.
Mountebank makes the Risen Martyr look good: it has the capstone ability of being dragged off to hell.

lol as many times as this happens to me players they would take the mountebank.

[thethird]

Spell to power erudite, anyone?
Psionic artificer?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Monk, Samurai, Truenamer, Knight, and Ninja.

That is, worst for the game and worst-designed, not least powerful.

Nah, Knight gets points for actually trying to be a tank. Replace it with Fighter.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Psionic artificer?

I missed the conversation on why this one was OP. I keep hearing that it is but have no clue as to why.

[Amphetryon]

Divine Mind and Soulborn deserve consideration on this list.

[molten_dragon]

what do think is the worst classes in 3.x?

Do prestige classes count?

Because if so I submit tainted sorcerer/scholar, and planar shepherd.

Worst designed that is, not least powerful.

[Curmudgeon]

Factotum, for arguably being the worst-written class in all of D&D.

[atemu1234]

Soulknife.

[sideswipe]

Factotum, for arguably being the worst-written class in all of D&D.

Please discuss further. I understand some of the abilities being vague (like can you use as many cunning surges as you want), but i don't know why you would say it is the worst written. I have not heard of why.

[Karl Aegis]

Core classes as a whole are the worst. Shortly behind them are Swashbuckler, Ninja, and Samurai. Honorable mention goes to Hexblades for having to make Duskblades afterwards and Warmages for being the opposite of what casters have traditionally done.

[Curmudgeon]

Please discuss further. I understand some of the abilities being vague (like can you use as many cunning surges as you want), but i don't know why you would say it is the worst written. I have not heard of why.
The Factotum is probably the most poorly written class in all of D&D, and I banned it outright until I could spare the time to work through all its issues. Here's the effort I had to put into that one class (spoilered for length):
The Factotum's Cunning Breach actually does work in my game, despite the authors not having the slightest idea how spell resistance functions in D&D. Strike the last, nonsensical, sentence of the paragraph.

Ninjas, Scouts, Factotums, and other classes with Trapfinding can use Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm) to find traps with DCs higher than 20 and Disable Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disableDevice.htm) to disarm magic traps, just as Rogues can. However, this does not override explicit limitations stated elsewhere in the rules, including the following spells:

Explosive Runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Fire Trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireTrap.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Glyph of Warding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Spike Growth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeGrowth.htm) can only be found by a Rogue.
Spike Stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeStones.htm) can only be found by a Rogue.
Symbol of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfFear.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Insanity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfInsanity.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPain.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Persuasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPersuasion.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfSleep.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Stunning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfStunning.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Weakness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfWeakness.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.

Factotum inspiration points aren't gained when an encounter ends, or after a few minutes; they're only gained at the beginning of each encounter (when you roll initiative), exactly as stated. Also, I've decided among the various possible meanings of "gains" to treat it as synonymous with "attains" (rather than "adds") here; IPs thus refresh to the specified total rather than keep accumulating. (The FAQ made up something counter to the RAW.)

House Rule: Bonus damage from the Factotum's Cunning Insight is negative energy damage when used with a spell or effect that deals negative levels or ability damage, making it consistent with the treatment of bonus damage from sneak attack when used with weaponlike spells. (This follows the pattern of a WotC Rules of the Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a) article, months before Complete Arcane made that Skip Williams house rule official.)

Because Factotums do not cast spells, the metamagic feats they use must be those which affect Spell-like abilities (Empower Spell-Like Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#empowerSpellLikeAbility), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility), and the like). Metamagic feats applicable only to spells do not benefit the Factotum. From Dungeonscape page 16:

By spending 1 inspiration point, you can mimic a spell as a spell-like ability.


The Factotum has a caster level, but not an arcane caster level or a divine caster level. Factotums use SLAs; they are not spellcasters — either arcane or divine. From Complete Arcane page 72:

... requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast (“Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells,” for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations—not even spell-like abilities or invocations that allow a character to use a specific arcane spell of the appropriate level or higher.


The Factotum's Cunning Strike is limited to 1 inspiration point for 1d6 sneak attack, as that class feature doesn't stipulate an exception to the stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking). (The FAQ made up something counter to the RAW.)

The Factotum's Cunning Brilliance can't be used to imitate any ability without an explicit (Ex) label. That is, you can't assume an unlabeled class ability is Extraordinary; that's not the default. (The FAQ made up something counter to the RAW.) From Player's Handbook page 180:

Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.
I don't ban the Factotum any more, but it was a pain in the posterior getting to where all the stupidities had been addressed and the class was usable without regularly bringing the game to a halt as we held "discussions" of how its various class features should work.

:furious:

[Svata]

Core classes as a whole are the worst. Shortly behind them are Swashbuckler, Ninja, and Samurai. Honorable mention goes to Hexblades for having to make Duskblades afterwards and Warmages for being the opposite of what casters have traditionally done.

Bard is pretty good, great with splat support, paladin/ranger are okayish, good with splat support, rogue is okay, and slightly better, you guessed it, with splat support.

EDIT: Oh, Barbarians (once again, esp. w/splats) are simple, solid t4 bringers of vast amounts of pain, who can do a few things out of combat as well, thanks to their decent skill list, and 4+ skills.

[Hiro Protagonest]

However, this does not override explicit limitations stated elsewhere in the rules, including the following spells:

Explosive Runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Fire Trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireTrap.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Glyph of Warding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Spike Growth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeGrowth.htm) can only be found by a Rogue.
Spike Stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeStones.htm) can only be found by a Rogue.
Symbol of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfFear.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Insanity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfInsanity.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPain.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Persuasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPersuasion.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfSleep.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Stunning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfStunning.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Weakness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfWeakness.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.


Well... I guess "Rogue" might actually be a game term, unlike "sword".

[georgie_leech]

The Factotum is probably the most poorly written class in all of D&D, and I banned it outright until I could spare the time to work through all its issues. Here's the effort I had to put into that one class (spoilered for length):
The Factotum's Cunning Breach actually does work in my game, despite the authors not having the slightest idea how spell resistance functions in D&D. Strike the last, nonsensical, sentence of the paragraph.

Ninjas, Scouts, Factotums, and other classes with Trapfinding can use Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm) to find traps with DCs higher than 20 and Disable Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disableDevice.htm) to disarm magic traps, just as Rogues can. However, this does not override explicit limitations stated elsewhere in the rules, including the following spells:

Explosive Runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Fire Trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireTrap.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Glyph of Warding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Spike Growth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeGrowth.htm) can only be found by a Rogue.
Spike Stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeStones.htm) can only be found by a Rogue.
Symbol of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfFear.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Insanity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfInsanity.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPain.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Persuasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPersuasion.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfSleep.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Stunning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfStunning.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Weakness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfWeakness.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.

Factotum inspiration points aren't gained when an encounter ends, or after a few minutes; they're only gained at the beginning of each encounter (when you roll initiative), exactly as stated. Also, I've decided among the various possible meanings of "gains" to treat it as synonymous with "attains" (rather than "adds") here; IPs thus refresh to the specified total rather than keep accumulating. (The FAQ made up something counter to the RAW.)

House Rule: Bonus damage from the Factotum's Cunning Insight is negative energy damage when used with a spell or effect that deals negative levels or ability damage, making it consistent with the treatment of bonus damage from sneak attack when used with weaponlike spells. (This follows the pattern of a WotC Rules of the Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a) article, months before Complete Arcane made that Skip Williams house rule official.)

Because Factotums do not cast spells, the metamagic feats they use must be those which affect Spell-like abilities (Empower Spell-Like Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#empowerSpellLikeAbility), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility), and the like). Metamagic feats applicable only to spells do not benefit the Factotum. From Dungeonscape page 16:



The Factotum has a caster level, but not an arcane caster level or a divine caster level. Factotums use SLAs; they are not spellcasters — either arcane or divine. From Complete Arcane page 72:



The Factotum's Cunning Strike is limited to 1 inspiration point for 1d6 sneak attack, as that class feature doesn't stipulate an exception to the stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking). (The FAQ made up something counter to the RAW.)

The Factotum's Cunning Brilliance can't be used to imitate any ability without an explicit (Ex) label. That is, you can't assume an unlabeled class ability is Extraordinary; that's not the default. (The FAQ made up something counter to the RAW.) From Player's Handbook page 180:

I don't ban the Factotum any more, but it was a pain in the posterior getting to where all the stupidities had been addressed and the class was usable without regularly bringing the game to a halt as we held "discussions" of how its various class features should work.

:furious:

Laid out like that, those spells have me wondering: are there spells outside of Core that reference only able to be found by rogues? It seems like that might be a reiteration of the trapfinding rules. Yes, I know that has no bearing on how RAW works.

[sideswipe]

The Factotum is probably the most poorly written class in all of D&D, and I banned it outright until I could spare the time to work through all its issues. Here's the effort I had to put into that one class (spoilered for length):
The Factotum's Cunning Breach actually does work in my game, despite the authors not having the slightest idea how spell resistance functions in D&D. Strike the last, nonsensical, sentence of the paragraph.

Ninjas, Scouts, Factotums, and other classes with Trapfinding can use Search (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/search.htm) to find traps with DCs higher than 20 and Disable Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disableDevice.htm) to disarm magic traps, just as Rogues can. However, this does not override explicit limitations stated elsewhere in the rules, including the following spells:

Explosive Runes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/explosiveRunes.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Fire Trap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireTrap.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Glyph of Warding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glyphOfWarding.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Spike Growth (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeGrowth.htm) can only be found by a Rogue.
Spike Stones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/spikeStones.htm) can only be found by a Rogue.
Symbol of Death (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfDeath.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Fear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfFear.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Insanity (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfInsanity.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Pain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPain.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Persuasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPersuasion.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Sleep (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfSleep.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Stunning (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfStunning.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Symbol of Weakness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfWeakness.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.
Teleportation Circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) can only be found or disabled by a Rogue.

Factotum inspiration points aren't gained when an encounter ends, or after a few minutes; they're only gained at the beginning of each encounter (when you roll initiative), exactly as stated. Also, I've decided among the various possible meanings of "gains" to treat it as synonymous with "attains" (rather than "adds") here; IPs thus refresh to the specified total rather than keep accumulating. (The FAQ made up something counter to the RAW.)

House Rule: Bonus damage from the Factotum's Cunning Insight is negative energy damage when used with a spell or effect that deals negative levels or ability damage, making it consistent with the treatment of bonus damage from sneak attack when used with weaponlike spells. (This follows the pattern of a WotC Rules of the Game (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a) article, months before Complete Arcane made that Skip Williams house rule official.)

Because Factotums do not cast spells, the metamagic feats they use must be those which affect Spell-like abilities (Empower Spell-Like Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#empowerSpellLikeAbility), Quicken Spell-Like Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#quickenSpellLikeAbility), and the like). Metamagic feats applicable only to spells do not benefit the Factotum. From Dungeonscape page 16:



The Factotum has a caster level, but not an arcane caster level or a divine caster level. Factotums use SLAs; they are not spellcasters — either arcane or divine. From Complete Arcane page 72:



The Factotum's Cunning Strike is limited to 1 inspiration point for 1d6 sneak attack, as that class feature doesn't stipulate an exception to the stacking rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#stacking). (The FAQ made up something counter to the RAW.)

The Factotum's Cunning Brilliance can't be used to imitate any ability without an explicit (Ex) label. That is, you can't assume an unlabeled class ability is Extraordinary; that's not the default. (The FAQ made up something counter to the RAW.) From Player's Handbook page 180:

I don't ban the Factotum any more, but it was a pain in the posterior getting to where all the stupidities had been addressed and the class was usable without regularly bringing the game to a halt as we held "discussions" of how its various class features should work.

:furious:

since the trapfinding says "as a rogue" i would say that it completely emulates as a rogue and can disarm/find all the rogue only traps.

the reset for inspiration points is obvious RAI, not gaining, though i believe it could have been better as a timed reset and not as it is. but as it is works ok.

the meta magic makes sense, i always treated it as you needed the spell like abilities ones.

yes they are not spell casters, they have no spell slots. they however do have a caster level equal to factotum level, as all (or most) spell like abilities have a caster level. and they are treated as arcane spell like abilities. makes sense to me.

honestly all of these things never ever cropped up in the 5 times i have seen factotums played.

[Invader]

commoner, warrior, aristocrat, expert (though has great uses) and samurai from complete warrior,

also soulborn and things like soul knife are considered pretty damn bad.

NPC classes are perfectly fine for NPCs. PC classes are set to a different standard.

[sideswipe]

NPC classes are perfectly fine for NPCs. PC classes are set to a different standard.

adept is actually better then about 30% of all classes in the game and its an NPC class.

[ranagrande]

The Dwarf, Gnome, Half-Dragon, Orc, and Tiefling racial paragons

I also always like to give a special shout-out to the Epic Mystic Theurge.

[Arbane]

The Dwarf, Gnome, Half-Dragon, Orc, and Tiefling racial paragons

I also always like to give a special shout-out to the Epic Mystic Theurge.

What's so bad about them?

[deuxhero]

If PrCs are allowed, Risen Martyr: it has the capstone ability of DYING.

When I first saw Risen Marytr I thought everyone was exagerating, I mean it wasn't good and capstone sucked, but there were certainly worse warrior prestige classes to spend your levels on
then I realized it was half BAB, not full

[j_spencer93]

to be fair, risen martyr is a specific case of you get a dead character back. however, yup it isn't good

[Curmudgeon]

Laid out like that, those spells have me wondering: are there spells outside of Core that reference only able to be found by rogues?
Oh, certainly. For example, Ghoul Glyph (Spell Compendium, page 105) mentions that a Rogue can use Search and Disable Device against the spell, while it's impervious to magical probing (so it excludes a Cleric using Find Traps, who would otherwise have the Rogue's Trapfinding ability). Also in SC (page 204), Spontaneous Search provides a boost to Search, but only Rogues can find traps with DCs higher than 20. I just looked in this one non-core book, so there are likely other references.

the reset for inspiration points is obvious RAI, not gaining, though i believe it could have been better as a timed reset and not as it is. but as it is works ok.
That reset is "gaining", using the definition of "gains" synonymous with "attains" rather than the alternative meaning you're thinking of which is synonymous with "adds". This ambiguous verb is one of the ways in which the class exhibits sloppy writing. You don't need to make up a house rule here; you just need to pick one dictionary definition of the word "gains". I picked the one which seemed to make the most sense here, and stuck with it for all Factotum references (a couple dozen total uses of this word).

[YossarianLives]

Factotum, for arguably being the worst-written class in all of D&D.
Considering who designed the factotum I'm not sure if your allowed to say that on this forum :smallwink:


Personally I think the 3.0 ranger is a piece of ****.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Considering who designed the factotum I'm not sure if your allowed to say that on this forum :smallwink:

Rich didn't design the factotum.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Personally I think the 3.0 ranger is a piece of ****.

If we go with 3.0 the Psion gets on that list. Let's cast from all 6 stats! Simultaneously! Roll 18, 18, 18, 18, 9, 9? NOT GOOD ENOUGH! LOSE 1/3 YOUR POWER ACCESS!

[Invader]

adept is actually better then about 30% of all classes in the game and its an NPC class.

That doesn't make the other npc classes bad though.

[Astralia123]

When I first saw Risen Marytr I thought everyone was exagerating, I mean it wasn't good and capstone sucked, but there were certainly worse warrior prestige classes to spend your levels on
then I realized it was half BAB, not full

Yeah you get the point: this PrC does incredibly horrible in what it claims to intend to. You are now a risen maytr, and you are never gonna reach the expected power level for you to *actually* complete your exalted duty whatever it is. Holy sh*t, I mean, exalted sh*t.
And if you somehow manage to continue this exalted journey, you are deemed to reach 10th level and that's when you drop your duty. I doubt if it is consistent with the intention of this class...

[Chronos]

Curmudgeon, if that's the worst you can say about the Factotum, then it's far from the worst-written class in the game. Some of the issues you cite are, in fact, actually clear from the rules, and others have RAI that's obvious enough that most players and DMs wouldn't even notice the dysfunction to begin with. And really, laying the blame for the "only a rogue" verbiage in spells on the factotum? That means that those spells were poorly written, not that the factotum was.

I'll also step in here to defend the commoner. The commoner does a good job of doing exactly what it's supposed to do, and it's a job that's needed for the game. It sucks, but that's the whole point: It's supposed to suck.

For worst base class, I'd probably give the title to the truenamer. Monk, soulknife, soulborn, etc. require a lot of optimization to be worthwhile, but the truenamer is the only class that requires optimization to work at all. That's also worse than the overpowered Tier 1s: It's not all that hard to reign those in, if you're trying.

For prestige classes, the one I always mention is the Master Inquisitive, from Eberron Campaign Setting. Their primary class feature is the ability to talk to people. Not talk to them in any language they speak, or being able to talk to them to get them to help you, or anything like that. You just talk to them, like anyone else could. They have 6 skill points per level, but their class skill list is so short that if you have a 14 Int, you're forced to take cross-class skills (they don't even have Craft or Profession or anything else that encompasses multiple skills, and everyone has Craft). The feat that's the prerequisite for the class has as its sole benefit that you're allowed to think. Again, not thinking better than anyone, just, if you see something interesting, you're allowed to think about it.

[Frostthehero]

Of the PC classes, the weakest (and therefore worst, in my opinion) is CW samurai.

[Troacctid]

Curmudgeon, if that's the worst you can say about the Factotum, then it's far from the worst-written class in the game. Some of the issues you cite are, in fact, actually clear from the rules, and others have RAI that's obvious enough that most players and DMs wouldn't even notice the dysfunction to begin with. And really, laying the blame for the "only a rogue" verbiage in spells on the factotum? That means that those spells were poorly written, not that the factotum was.

Hey, he didn't even mention that Cunning Surge doesn't specify an action type, which makes it default to a standard action. :smalltongue:

[Curmudgeon]

Curmudgeon, if that's the worst you can say about the Factotum, then it's far from the worst-written class in the game.
OK, I'll bite: what other classes are written more poorly than the Factotum?

Some of the issues you cite are, in fact, actually clear from the rules, and others have RAI that's obvious enough that most players and DMs wouldn't even notice the dysfunction to begin with.
I have no faith in "RAI". Do you think Cunning Breach is clear, when it's obvious the authors haven't a clue how SR works? What you might think was the designer's intent, someone else will decry as unthinkable. I made a guess as to the authors' intent where the Factotum "gains" for IP per encounter was mentioned, simply because it was necessary to pick among the various meanings of that ambiguous term; I then stuck with that definition everywhere it was used. That doesn't mean my guess was right, but it's strictly necessary to make a DM's call because the authors did a bad job.

And really, laying the blame for the "only a rogue" verbiage in spells on the factotum? That means that those spells were poorly written, not that the factotum was.
I don't put any blame on that class; I simply have found it necessary to point out that, as far as some (significant number of) places in the rules are concerned, Rogue Trapfinding is superior to Scout, Factotum, and other forms of Trapfinding.

[AmberVael]

OK, I'll bite: what other classes are written more poorly than the Factotum?

How about Erudite? Erudite is pretty horrendous.

[Snowbluff]

I dislike most of the Monk's crunch and all of its fluff. Truenamer is classic badness. Shadowcaster is a real disappointment to me.

An argument could be made for Wizard/Sorc for not having many class features, but I like them for having a strong variety of spells. The same is true for the Psion, which is pretty much Wizard but everyone thinks it's great for not being wizard.

Druid does not suck. It's a great class that can be built in a meaningful variety of ways for various play levels. The same could be said of cleric.

[Venusaur]

Shining Blade of Heironeous is shockingly bad...

Seriously, in what way does making a sword do 1d6 more damage twice per day at the cost of a standard action seem even remotely good for an 8th level character?

[Svata]

The Dwarf, Gnome, Half-Dragon, Orc, and Tiefling racial paragons

I also always like to give a special shout-out to the Epic Mystic Theurge.


What's so bad about them?

Couldn't tell you about the Paragons, but Epic(R)(TM) MT has 2+int skills, a d4 HD, a bonus feat every 6 levels, and alternates between progressing arcane and divine casting. Alternating between Cleric and Wizard gets you better HD on cleic levels, the same skills, 2 bonus feats every 6 levels, and the same casting progression. Epic(R)(TM) MT is strictly worse than just alternating.

[AuraTwilight]

Fighter. We all know WHY it sucks, and it's certainly not the worst class ever by crunch...but I consider it the worst because it's the precedent used to judge all martial characters in the game, and the entire edition got strangled by it so that Caster Supremacy could never be sufficiently reigned in.

Which is also why the Tier 1 classes are awful. Tier 2 should've been the ceiling, in my opinion. Honestly, if only Tier 2 and Tier 3 classes existed in the game, things would be mostly fine.

[thethird]

I missed the conversation on why this one was OP. I keep hearing that it is but have no clue as to why.

First important thing, there are spell to power erudites, and ways to turn divine spells into arcane spells. So potentially all spells are psionic powers. This gives the Psionic Artificer more access to spells/powers than the normal Artificer.

Second important thing, the magic item compendium sidebar (on pg 232) details how psionics can be used to meet the prerequisites to make magic items (in a quite transparent way) this is not both ways. Magic users cannot create psionic items, psionic users can create magic items. This gives the Psionic Artificer more items to create than the normal Artificer.

Third important thing, while a normal artificer scrolls aren't divine or arcane a psionic artificer items? They are psionic. What does this mean? Psionic characters can use them fine, no UPD required.

So Psionic Artificer is more powerful than normal Artificer. Because it has more options in spells and items and his items are more easily usable by others.

[ranagrande]

Couldn't tell you about the Paragons, but Epic(R)(TM) MT has 2+int skills, a d4 HD, a bonus feat every 6 levels, and alternates between progressing arcane and divine casting. Alternating between Cleric and Wizard gets you better HD on cleic levels, the same skills, 2 bonus feats every 6 levels, and the same casting progression. Epic(R)(TM) MT is strictly worse than just alternating.

Basically. Every other class with full casting is superior to the Epic Mystic Theurge. Alternating Wizard and Cleric is indeed better, even though you won't be getting bonus feats from the epic lists any time soon, until you reach level 20 in those classes. You'll still get better HD as mentioned, and you'll increase your Turn Undead/Familiar/etc., none of which Mystic Theurge does.

Better yet, take a different PRC after MT. Pre-epic Loremaster is better than Epic Mystic Theurge. It gets more skills from a much better list, the same number of epic bonus feats (1, from the Applicable Knowledge Secret), and actual class features. Once Loremaster goes epic, it keeps the skill advantage and gets twice as many feats as MT.

As for the paragons, they're just not very good. Complete Warrior Samurai is probably better than the Dwarf Paragon. At least it gets Exotic Weapon Proficiency. The Dwarf Paragon does have one use that I know of: it gets all the class skills to enter Deepwarden without needing Ranger.

The Gnome Paragon is a decent choice for a Bard who wants to focus on illusions. For any other kind of Bard, actual Bard levels are much better. For anything other than a Bard, this class is pointless.

The Half-Dragon Paragon is probably the worst of these. You need LA to take it, and for what? Sorcerous Blood? Taking a different class could give you actual caster levels. Natural Armor Increase? There's a feat that does the same thing. Breath Weapon 3/day? Or take Dragonfire Adept to use one at will.

The Orc Paragon is pretty terrible too. Removing light sensitivity is good, but again, there's a feat for that. Elf Slayer is a poor man's version of Favored Enemy. You could take a level of Ranger instead to get the actual Favored Enemy. Then you would also get Track, and Wild Empathy, and better saves, and better skills.

The Tiefling Paragon might be worth taking in some cases, but it's still far inferior to every other class that does its schtick, Rogue, Ranger, Scout, and many others do more without requiring a +1 LA race.

[The Viscount]

OK, I'll bite: what other classes are written more poorly than the Factotum?

I've always found Dread Necromancer to be exceptionally irritating in its writing, mostly because the writers were apparently ignorant of game terminology, and as a result wrote a number of vague or simply incorrect things. If you care to read at length, I've written more about it here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15426049&postcount=107)

As for my thoughts on worst classes, I don't usually include monk or fighter. Not because they aren't bad, but because I've still seen them used for dips and splashes. Even lowly fighter can spend feats on Martial Study and Stance, and that's a worthwhile investment.

My "worst" classes are several in number, and all have been said before, because they each have their own aspects of badness.

Soulknife is very high up there, because its features can be replicated by simply having money.
Knight deserves a place because it's trying to play a completely different game, and said different game does not work well in 3.5.
Truenamer as always gets a mention because it doesn't work very well unless you have a lenient DM.
Divine Mind is probably the top because it's just the worst. It is shockingly bad in the dullest and most mundane ways; it's so bad people barely talk about it.

[eggynack]

If we're considering prestige classes, I'll add in beastmaster. It's a class that is a lightning rod for weird misreadings, and those misreadings are invariably significantly more powerful and interesting than the actual class. It tends to act as a weird sort of trap option as a result, though the general lack of advancement means that it'd be a bit of a trap option even if it worked well. Mostly though, I hate the class because those misreadings actually reflect what the class should have been, as it's ridiculous to gain a first level companion as a capstone.

Anyway, I don't know if it's more problematic, but I think monk also merits consideration from a poor writing perspective. That unarmed strike ability is the source for a ridiculous amount of rules ambiguity in every facet of its being, and the unarmed strike proficiency issue is D&D silliness at its most silly.

[Threadnaught]

Considering who designed the factotum I'm not sure if your allowed to say that on this forum :smallwink:

Regardless of whether or not The Giant wrote Factotum or had any input at all on the Class. He has poked fun at his own past work.

I wonder how many people will really read this.


[Insert Tomb of Battle Class Here]

[kellbyb]

[Insert Tomb of Battle Class Here]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.

[Greenish]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.Tomb of Battle is where martial characters go to die, so any classes there are probably pretty weak.

[Threadnaught]

I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here.

Tomb of Battle is where martial characters go to die, so any classes there are probably pretty weak.

Pretty much what Greenish said. And because it's related to the point.


I wonder how many people will really read this.

Because Tomb of Battle is a rather common misspelling for Tome of Battle by DMs who dislike Tome of Battle after having been in proximity of the book. It's actually a bit of a joke around these parts where, when one such DM mentions Tomb of Battle, another user asks about this strange new third party book they've never heard of.

I'm disappointed not to get any such comments. Maybe I admitted to liking Tome of Battle a little too early.

[Feint's End]

I missed the conversation on why this one was OP. I keep hearing that it is but have no clue as to why.

Because due to a certain line (I believe in MIC) every item in the book can also be crafted by a psionic crafter even if it requires a spell. Just substitute the spell by a similar power.

Add this on top of the ability to also craft all psionic items and you have a more flexible Artificer .... and those are already t1.

[Solaris]

Classes with too high a ceiling aren't game-killers; they can always be optimized less.

Bad as they are, fighter and monk can still offer something that can't be replicated by a magic weapon. Even the monk's belt is a magic item that has a lot of competition for its slot, and thus taking a level in monk is an option for low-op builds.

Soulknife, cool as the concept is... offers nothing that can't be replicated with a magic weapon. Thus, I proclaim soulknife as the worst class in D&D 3.5E on account of the massive disappointment it presents. It could have been D&D's answer to Jedi with the added bonus of using raw psionic power instead of fancy technology, but instead it's... a mediocre chassis whose chief and only real ability is to replicate WBL for characters a couple of levels lower.

[Deophaun]

I've always found Dread Necromancer to be exceptionally irritating in its writing, mostly because the writers were apparently ignorant of game terminology, and as a result wrote a number of vague or simply incorrect things. If you care to read at length, I've written more about it here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15426049&postcount=107)
Seconding Dread Necro. I love the class, but dear Pelor is it a mess.

On the lich thing: I think it's actually a benefit and intended that it doesn't get the Lich template. The problem is the phylactery does nothing by RAW. Otherwise, it's great for an epic level campaign. I mean, you can be a demilich with only a +8 LA, instead of +12.

And I assumed the "some ability drain" excluded mental abilities, because undead can still take damage to those. Of course, that's damage, not drain. So really, I have no idea what they intended, so I go with "all ability drain" instead.

[Marlowe]

Unpopular choice this is going to be, and there are certainly worse classes, but I find I'm increasingly less fond of the Rogue.

It has the weakest chassis of any class without magical abilities, yet people try to use it for combat. It will generally be dex-based, but doesn't qualify for Finesse until level 3, which leaves you to choose between locking yourself into the long, frustrating feat-chains of archery, trying to alternate that and melee, or just accept that your combat utility is going to be very hit-and-miss (mostly miss).

It should be independent, self-reliant, and resourceful. But in practice it's dependent on other party members helping it out. Its class features tend to overspecialize it towards a few areas that are likely to become pretty much irrelevant as the campaign goes on. In its sidelines, it's likely to be heavily overshadowed by other classes.

It's one of the most generic classes in the game and should be colourful and diverse, yet the way the mechanics play out most Rogues tend to wind up looking much the same.

I find myself, when designing things, actually having to consciously put in "things for the Rogue to do". And consciously avoiding putting in opponents that I want to have because a Rogue won't be much use against them.

[Snowbluff]

Dread Necro isn't bad if Fighter and Monk aren't bad if you dip them. DN 1 is a great dip for Arcane CL and Turning attempts.

Rogue is definitely on my list. It's pretty "meh" to me, but things really went downhill in PF. In general, there are a ton of ways to be a better rogue without a rogue.

[Curmudgeon]

Unpopular choice this is going to be, and there are certainly worse classes, but I find I'm increasingly less fond of the Rogue.

It has the weakest chassis of any class without magical abilities, yet people try to use it for combat.
You can make the Rogue work well. However, that means going to a lot of supplements to repair that weak chassis.

For example:

Race: could be Silvanesti Elf (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) or Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone)
Template: Dark Creature (Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave) for Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight
Feats: Craven (Champions of Ruin) for more sneak attack damage; Darkstalker (Lords of Madness) to Hide vs. more perception types; Education (Eberron Campaign Setting) for all Knowledges as class skills; Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) for combat bonuses based on Knowledge checks
ACFs: Lightbringer Penetrating Strike (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) for sneak attack damage to more opponents; Uncanny Bravery (Dragon Magic) for fear resistance
Skills: Hide and Move Silently are your main sneak attack enablers; Knowledges are for combat bonuses vs. every creature type in D&D; Use Magic Device to use wands or items like a Holy Avenger sword
Skill Tricks: Acrobatic Backstab, Collector of Stories, and others (Complete Scoundrel) for combat versatility

The Rogue might be the hardest class in D&D to build and play well. Nonetheless, it is a viable choice if you've got the books and the desire.

[Hamste]

Classes with too high a ceiling aren't game-killers; they can always be optimized less.

Bad as they are, fighter and monk can still offer something that can't be replicated by a magic weapon. Even the monk's belt is a magic item that has a lot of competition for its slot, and thus taking a level in monk is an option for low-op builds.

Soulknife, cool as the concept is... offers nothing that can't be replicated with a magic weapon. Thus, I proclaim soulknife as the worst class in D&D 3.5E on account of the massive disappointment it presents. It could have been D&D's answer to Jedi with the added bonus of using raw psionic power instead of fancy technology, but instead it's... a mediocre chassis whose chief and only real ability is to replicate WBL for characters a couple of levels lower.

Not counting pre-requisites fighter can be totally replaced by magical items and a base. Unless I'm mistaken an unslotted item that grants a feat was found to be 10000gp.

[Solaris]

You can make the Rogue work well. However, that means going to a lot of supplements to repair that weak chassis.

For example:

Race: could be Silvanesti Elf (Dragonlance Campaign Setting) or Whisper Gnome (Races of Stone)
Template: Dark Creature (Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave) for Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight
Feats: Craven (Champions of Ruin) for more sneak attack damage; Darkstalker (Lords of Madness) to Hide vs. more perception types; Education (Eberron Campaign Setting) for all Knowledges as class skills; Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion) for combat bonuses based on Knowledge checks
ACFs: Lightbringer Penetrating Strike (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft) for sneak attack damage to more opponents; Uncanny Bravery (Dragon Magic) for fear resistance
Skills: Hide and Move Silently are your main sneak attack enablers; Knowledges are for combat bonuses vs. every creature type in D&D; Use Magic Device to use wands or items like a Holy Avenger sword
Skill Tricks: Acrobatic Backstab, Collector of Stories, and others (Complete Scoundrel) for combat versatility

The Rogue might be the hardest class in D&D to build and play well. Nonetheless, it is a viable choice if you've got the books and the desire.

When you put it like that, Rogue actually sounds like it'd be pretty fun to play.


Not counting pre-requisites fighter can be totally replaced by magical items and a base. Unless I'm mistaken an unslotted item that grants a feat was found to be 10000gp.

Magic items aren't magic weapons. Magic weapons are magic items, but it's a square-rectangle relationship here.

Where'd the unslotted magic item for a feat thing get printed?

[ranagrande]

You can spend 4420 gp for an Eternal Wand of Heroics and get a fighter bonus feat for ten minutes, twice a day.

[TheCrowing1432]

The tome of battle classes really bring it home on how bad some of the core classes are.

I mean Crusader is obviously a remade paladin.

Warblade is a remade Fighter/Barbarian

Swordsage is a remade Skillmonkey (who doesnt have trapfinding for some reason)

[Void Bovine]

Are we talking purest only? Cause a lot classes that don't appear useful can be pretty good when splashed or used in conjunction with another class.

[Snowbluff]

Be complicated and explanatory!



Where'd the unslotted magic item for a feat thing get printed?
I think AEG has the rules. They weren't reprinted, but a bunch of other feats are available through specific weapons.

You can spend 4420 gp for an Eternal Wand of Heroics and get a fighter bonus feat for ten minutes, twice a day.
Well, I think it's for 30 minutes, since it's a second level spell.

[Ssalarn]

Divine Mind and Soulborn deserve consideration on this list.

Divine Mind has at least one really good working build available, so I'd definitely put it a full step up above the Soulborn.

Soulborn probably is a contender for worst class IMO though.

If we're including Pathfinder in 3.x, I'd also nominate the Gunslinger, not just beacuse of his base abilities, but because the entire subsystem he's designed to interact with is absolutely terrible, leading to the class not even being internally balanced, let alone balanced to the other materials in any meaningful way. Just shoddy design all around.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Soulborn probably is a contender for worst class IMO though.

Well, they do get Thunderstep Boots. >.>

[Rubik]

Swordsage is a remade Skillmonkey (who doesnt have trapfinding for some reason)Honestly, "Trapfinding" shouldn't exist. Ranks in Search and Disable Device should be enough to allow you to find traps with higher DCs. Trapfinding is only there to make the rogue useful in a dungeon environment and to give it a very clumsily enforced niche. There's no actual reason to ever play one, otherwise.

[Amphetryon]

Divine Mind has at least one really good working build available, so I'd definitely put it a full step up above the Soulborn.

Out of curiosity, what build do you reference, and is Divine Mind needed for it, or merely functional in it?

[Troacctid]

Divine Minds do get a pretty big power spike if they have the Ectopic Ally (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a) ACF, since psi-like abilities are automatically augmented to the maximum possible level and the Divine Mind can even augment past that if they want.

[Marlowe]

Oh. For completeness we've got to mention the Mariner from Dragonlance: Legend of the Twins. It's essentially a pirate-themed mashup of Rangery, Roguish, and Bardic abilities. But it's underpowered compared to any of those classes or even to any cross-class combination.

It's not a bad dip. The first level gives you d8 hit die, full BAB, 2 good saves, some decent skills and skill points, some martial proficiencies, "Sailor Lore" (The character can tell you who Ami Mizuno is No seriously, it's exactly like Bardic Knowledge. Except it isn't.) and a bonus feat. It's just the class doesn't do anything after that.