Wizard vs. Fighters

[molten_dragon]

This isn't another "could a level x wizard beat a level x fighter" thread. The answer to that has pretty conclusively been proven "Yes".

The question here is how many level 20 fighters could a level 20 wizard beat. Or more specifically, how many level 20 fighters does it take to create an encounter a level 20 wizard can't win.

Here are the rules.

The wizard has to do it without resting. No teleporting off to another plane, regaining spells, and coming back to fight more. Because if he has to flee, then it's an encounter he can't win.
The wizard wins the encounter if all the enemy fighters are killed or unable to continue fighting. The fighters win if the wizard is killed or unable to continue fighting, or has to flee.
Assume both the wizard and the fighters are optimized to a similar degree that a generic "reasonably lenient DM" would allow. No pun puns, no infinite loops, etc.
Everyone has WBL for a 20th level character. The fighters have to be built as individuals, no pooling money and buying epic items.
If it matters, assume a variety of fighter builds. Some designed for damage, some for disrupting the enemy, maybe an archer or a mageslayer in there.

Personally, I'm not sure of an exact number, but I'm guessing that once you get in the range of 6-8 fighters or so, the fighters' action economy advantage is going to start making it extremely difficult for the wizard to win.

[eggynack]

I'm inclined to put it somewhere close to all of them. I mean, I guess at some point there are just enough fighters that you don't have enough spells/time to explode them all, but then again, shapechange can provide pretty efficient repeatable effects. I mean, really, wizards can gain immunity to damage through hide life, and immunity to just about everything else through ridiculous hyper-cheese involving astral projection, or contingencies, or aleaxes. The wizard could probably theoretically gain victory by just standing there, completely immune to everything in existence, and shooting sling bullets at the fighters until they die a death by a bazillion tiny cuts.

[SaintNick]

How many level 20 fighters could a level 20 wizard beat?

All of them.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The wizard has to do it without resting. No teleporting off to another plane, regaining spells, and coming back to fight more. Because if he has to flee, then it's an encounter he can't win.

Against this many fighters, it's not a battle, it's a war. Strategic retreat is viable.

So using the rule presented it's "how many fighters can the wizard kill before he runs out of spells for the day and has to use his last one to get to/create a safezone".

[Belial_the_Leveler]

I'll try it with core only;

1) Time Stop

2) Forcecage, centered on self

3) Wind Wall, own space

4) Widened Antimagic Field, mastered to exclude own space.



The wizard has effectively won because;

a) The fighters can't get to him because an invulnerable barrier surrounds him.
b) Projectiles can't reach him because an invulnerable barrier surrounds him.
c) The wizard can still attack through the invulnerable barrier.




I suppose that if we're using Core only, the wizard can only beat so many fighters as he can't escape, rest and come back. Like, 20 or so fighters. However, if we're using all available sources, the wizard can defeat ANY number of fighters. Why?

Persisted spells. He persists the invulnerable wall and after he kills however many fighters he can, he just stays there in restful calm for 8 hours and regains spells. There's no need for him to leave the fight when he can rest in the middle of an endless sea of angry fighters who are utterly powerless to harm him.



EDIT:

The reason I don't go with Astral Projection, Hide Life and other damage immunities is that naturally flying fighters wearing antimagic shackles on themselves can simply move up to me and beat me up. If Astral Projection, the AMF will suppress the spell and force me to flee the field. If Hide Life, the fighter can use superior strength to tie me up and strangle me, ensuring death by natural suffocation which is neither damage nor a magic effect. If favor of the martyr + regeneration, they are suppressed. If contingencies, they will run out or I'll be forced to flee the field.

[Karl Aegis]

"Unable to continue fighting" seems kind of vague. Does the wizard win if he goes out of range of the fighters' detection range? A fighter can't continue to fight something it is unable to detect.

[molten_dragon]

immunity to just about everything else through ridiculous hyper-cheese involving astral projection, or contingencies, or aleaxes.

Well, those probably don't meet the theoretical "reasonably lenient DM" standard.

But "however many he can kill before he runs out of spells for the day" does provide a good upper limit.

[molten_dragon]

Persisted spells. He persists the invulnerable wall and after he kills however many fighters he can, he just stays there in restful calm for 8 hours and regains spells. There's no need for him to leave the fight when he can rest in the middle of an endless sea of angry fighters who are utterly powerless to harm him.

Resting and regaining spells is a no-no.

[eggynack]

Well, those probably don't meet the theoretical "reasonably lenient DM" standard.

But "however many he can kill before he runs out of spells for the day" does provide a good upper limit.
At some point then, the question isn't one of wizard power, because that's infinite, and becomes one of DM leniency. In any case, hide life works fine for most purposes, and should ensure wizard victory over as many fighters as the wizard can kill in his lifetime.

Resting and regaining spells is a no-no.
I don't really see why. You haven't left the battlefield, so it's not like you retreated. You're just taking an ordinary combat action, where said set of actions happens to include an eight hour nap and some spellbook study.

[YossarianLives]

What if the wizard screws up his initiative roll and gets murdered. He is still very, very vulnerable with no spells.

[Hiro Protagonest]

What if the wizard screws up his initiative roll and gets murdered. He is still very, very vulnerable with no spells.

So you're assuming no long-term buffs already in effect, no contingency spells, fighters manage to get within necessary distance, it's not an astral projection...

[Zanos]

What if the wizard screws up his initiative roll and gets murdered. He is still very, very vulnerable with no spells.
Foresight + Celerity takes care of that fairly easily.

One thing I think potential "solutions" could keep in mind is that every fighter has 720,000 gp in magic items at their disposable, and it's easily within the realm of possibility to get a UMD check of "Yes" with sufficient optimization, even on a fighter. If all the fighters just spend all their money on scrolls to UMD, the Wizard is pretty boned. Some people might not really consider UMDing a pile of scrolls to be very fighter-y, though. :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

Unfortunately, we're probably looking at a God wizard scenario. So yes, a wizard COULD wipe out every plane of existence and proceed to make its own.

[Jack_Simth]

I'll try it with core only;

1) Time Stop

2) Forcecage, centered on self

3) Wind Wall, own space

4) Widened Antimagic Field, mastered to exclude own space.



The wizard has effectively won because;

a) The fighters can't get to him because an invulnerable barrier surrounds him.
b) Projectiles can't reach him because an invulnerable barrier surrounds him.
c) The wizard can still attack through the invulnerable barrier.

If you're sticking to core, you've got a problem: Wind Wall doesn't actually stop all projectiles! Just arrows and crossbow bolts. Sling bullets, javelins, and thrown daggers? Those hit a different clause:

Arrows and bolts are deflected upward and miss, while any other normal ranged weapon passing through the wall has a 30% miss chance. (A giant-thrown boulder, a siege engine projectile, and other massive ranged weapons are not affected.)(emphasis added)

While granted, a 30% miss chance is nothing to sneeze at... it's not an invulnerable barrier.

Now, if you make the Forcecage Windowless, you don't have line-of-effect out of it, and thus the AMF does not exist outside the forcecage - which means the Forcecage can be brought down with a Absorbing Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#absorbingShield) (of note is that this is a Core item) letting the fighters through. Also, of course, you have the little itty bitty issue of the material components for the Forcecage. There's a few ways around that, even in core, and you're probably gaining the XP for each fighter sufficient for a Wish for it, but still....

[Calimehter]

One thing I think potential "solutions" could keep in mind is that every fighter has 720,000 gp in magic items at their disposable, and it's easily within the realm of possibility to get a UMD check of "Yes" with sufficient optimization, even on a fighter. If all the fighters just spend all their money on scrolls to UMD, the Wizard is pretty boned. Some people might not really consider UMDing a pile of scrolls to be very fighter-y, though. :smalltongue:

That was what I was wondering about, too, when I saw the first post. Isn't this really just another way of asking "Can a wizard 20 defeat infinite WBL?" Infinite Fighter 20s after all have infinite wealth.

I thought there was a thread about that somewhere, but my google-fu (or my memory . . . or both) is failing me. :(

[Dysart]

Ok so these fighters can have a similar amount of wealth and optimisation... right... So, what system are we talking? 'Cos I'm pretty sure if you can optimize a fighter to 1 shot a Tarasque then all you need to do is optimize it to beat a wizard and then it's one.
At the end of the day if they can't cast spells and have all their spells interrupted then they're dead.

I'd love to see the wizard which needs to be beaten and I'll build a Fighter to beat it one on one!

[TheCrowing1432]

Flying stops all of the melee ones right away.

Windwall stops a lot of the archers, though apprently not all projectiles.

[Dysart]

Flying stops all of the melee ones right away.

Windwall stops a lot of the archers, though apprently not all projectiles.

So you're assuming two things:

1, The fighter has no magic items
2, The fighter isn't using tactics

Just because they're a fighter it doesn't mean they're stupid.
To be honest though if you have any level 20 character with magic items and a large amount of others without you're likely to see skewed results.

[tadkins]

On this subject, if there was some kind of artifact level sword that allowed its wielder to cut through any kind of magic (such as shielding, walls and such) as well as be used to deflect any form of magic or energy based attack, would that be enough for a fighter to stand up to a wizard?

I ask since I was thinking of equipping one of my big villains with something like this. I'd would be aiming for a spell-less villain; an infamous, terrifying swordmaster that even wizards would fear.

[Twilightwyrm]

Assuming similar levels of optimization (which it seems some of us are not), it becomes more a matter of tactics employed, and the so called "rules" for said fighting. Are we talking a series of 20th level fighters, one at a time, one after another? If we are talking more than one, can they be specialized to complement one another? Are they all present from the beginning, or do they somehow arrive or warp in one at a time after another is killed? Can the fighters coordinate with each other for who goes first, fights from what range, etc.? Does the wizard actually have to kill the fighters, or is the wizard's objective just to survive (As you'll note by the replies, wizards are very good at surviving. But a sustained assault? Sure a 20th level wizard can sustain an assault pretty long, perhaps even for days, but they are fundamentally in how long of an assault they can sustain, just like their lower level kin. It just normally doesn't matter when that assault is with nukes, over less than a minute)

I would say that generally speaking, it will be a matter of attrition. The initial fighters are going to want to specialize more on surviving so that killing each one of them takes the maximum amount of the wizard's spells, and are actually going to want to engage from range, so they cannot be caught in AOE effects. I imagine a large scale cat and mouse game will take place in which initially the wizard is taking the offensive, trying to maximize his spell use and such. Because here's the thing: as soon as the durations on these spells start to elapse, it is going to become more and more likely that the fighters can take the wizard down. Especially since it is a wizard specifically, and continuous Bane Blind (Arcanist) (see MIC pg. 7) is a thing some, or many of the fighters might have.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The bars of a Forcecage have half-inch gaps between them. Daggers, darts, sling bullets, javelins and similar weapons are simply too small to fit through.

[Mystral]

This isn't another "could a level x wizard beat a level x fighter" thread. The answer to that has pretty conclusively been proven "Yes".

The question here is how many level 20 fighters could a level 20 wizard beat. Or more specifically, how many level 20 fighters does it take to create an encounter a level 20 wizard can't win.

Here are the rules.

The wizard has to do it without resting. No teleporting off to another plane, regaining spells, and coming back to fight more. Because if he has to flee, then it's an encounter he can't win.
The wizard wins the encounter if all the enemy fighters are killed or unable to continue fighting. The fighters win if the wizard is killed or unable to continue fighting, or has to flee.
Assume both the wizard and the fighters are optimized to a similar degree that a generic "reasonably lenient DM" would allow. No pun puns, no infinite loops, etc.
Everyone has WBL for a 20th level character. The fighters have to be built as individuals, no pooling money and buying epic items.
If it matters, assume a variety of fighter builds. Some designed for damage, some for disrupting the enemy, maybe an archer or a mageslayer in there.

Personally, I'm not sure of an exact number, but I'm guessing that once you get in the range of 6-8 fighters or so, the fighters' action economy advantage is going to start making it extremely difficult for the wizard to win.

A level 20 Wizard could easily concot a combination of spells that allow him to defeat any number of fighters whatsoever. He could, for example, simply fly while using a combination of spells to make it impossible for fighters to reach him with ranged weapons or magical flight (from potions or items or whatever). Then, he can pick them off at his leisure with some reserve feat. He wouldn't even need more than 6-7 spells. And he could easily get the preparations done with celerity and time stop.

So the answer is, all of the fighters and then some.

[georgie_leech]

A level 20 Wizard could easily concot a combination of spells that allow him to defeat any number of fighters whatsoever. He could, for example, simply fly while using a combination of spells to make it impossible for fighters to reach him with ranged weapons or magical flight (from potions or items or whatever). Then, he can pick them off at his leisure with some reserve feat. He wouldn't even need more than 6-7 spells. And he could easily get the preparations done with celerity and time stop.

So the answer is, all of the fighters and then some.

Which spell or combination prevents all possible magical flight that doesn't also stop his/her/its own?

[Andezzar]

That was what I was wondering about, too, when I saw the first post. Isn't this really just another way of asking "Can a wizard 20 defeat infinite WBL?" Infinite Fighter 20s after all have infinite wealth.Not quite. An infinte number of level 20 fighters have an infinite number of chunks of wealth equal to WBL. There is no rule that the fighters may pool their resources to acquire an item worth more than one WBL.

[Kraken]

At least a few fighters are going to be able to get off scrolls of shapechange and other such goodies. Especially out of core. This challenge just has too many murky variables right now to be worth talking about.

[Mystral]

Currently away from books, but I would be suprised if there wasn't.

[Threadnaught]

Nowhere near Emperor Win's level, but Level 20 Necropolitan Gray Elf Eidetic Spellcaster Elven Generalist Domain Wizard is a fair challenge, without special preparation.

Planar Bubble to Demiplane with all the metamagics, Recast to Persist, Superior Invisibility, Flight and Greater Ironguard for buffs. Cloudkill, Black Tentacles, Solid Fog, Disjunction, Control Weather, Fimbulwinter, Wall of X, Shapechange and Wish for offence.
I don't see many Half-Minotaur Half-Ogre Water Orcs being able to break through all this.
The less optimized Fighters would fall before a well Rudisplorked Wizard.


Edit: I haven't mentioned the controversial Ice Assassins, of an Ice Assassin, of an Ice Assassin, of an Ice Assassin of the Wizard previously and can find no mention of it.
Interplanar Telepathic Bond a couple and have them do some of the fighting. Perhaps use a certain Spell to convince some to build the Wizard's planar empire, turning Team Fighter's Infinite Soldiers advantage, into something the Wizard can also use.
Intense Fimbulwinter creates over 300' of Snow in a 20+ mile radius, over 672 days, at worst. The temperature should rapidly drop, allowing the Wizard to recast and create 8736' of Snow over 672 days.

[Eldan]

Well...
The wizard can gate in some solars. Those solars have at-will magic, including the ability to animate objects, so the wizard also has an infinite, though weaker, army. As well as 9th level cleric spells, of course.
Other available and useful at-will spells include: invisibility and ethereal jaunt (couatl),blasphemy, dominate monster, greater dispel magic, insanity, power word stun, telekinesis (balor), fireball, wall of force (leonal), chain lightning , cure critical wounds, fire storm , greater dispel magic, hold monster, invisibility, invisibility purge, levitate, persistent image (titan).

So, I'd say if the wizard manages to get in some leonals and balors with some preparation time, he can build a fortress of layered walls of force, while setting his monsters to dispel and then bomb away all approaching fighters, forever.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

OTOH, let's optimize the fighters' tactics and equipment;


1) Fighter(s) with antimagic shackles readying a move action vs the wizard appearing.

2) Fighter(s) with antimagic shackles readying a move action vs a contingency going off.

3) Fighter(s) with Ring of X wishes using the Transport Travelers option of Wish to force the wizard to appear.

4) Fighter(s) with longbows readying attacks.

5) Wizard runs out of natural 1 rerolls and appears. The #1 fighters attempt to get closer with their AMF. The wizard's contingency tries to activate but the #2 fighters dash and envelop him with AMF before the contingency can get him away.

6) Wizard dies to arrows.

[RoboEmperor]

1. Gate in as many 40hd monsters as you can into magic circles (Or not, if you're confident they'll like your deal)
2. Offer them some sort of reward to wipe out all the fighters
OR
Limited Wish replicating Geas/Quest to enslave them
OR
Dominate Monster

You now have 5 40hd monsters tearing up the fighters

3. Lesser Planar Bind a Nightmare
4. See #2 for how to get its service
5. Have the nightmare use its at-will etherealness and at-will astral projection to make the 40hd monsters immortal. Even if they die, they'll just return to their original bodies only to be astrally projected again. Keeping the bodies (and the wizard) in the ethereal plane should make them all invincible to anything except force weapons.

You now have 5 40hd monsters who cannot permanently die by the fighters.

6. Repeat 1-2 with Greater Planar Binding.

You now have 5-6 18hd outsiders in addition to the 5 40hd monsters slaughtering the fighters.

Of course, the number of immortal soldiers fighting for you may be less depending on whether or not you succeed the charisma rolls, if you roll a 1, or you run out of enslavement spells, but the point is, wizards can have an astrally projected squad of insanely powerful monsters that stay until all the fighters are dead.

If the astral projection violates your infinite loop clause, it doesn't matter. I highly doubt any number of level 20 fighters can take out 5 40hd monsters.

[Threadnaught]

So our level 20 Wizard is killed by Infinite level 20 Fighters using Infinite level 17 Wizard powers.

That seems a bit lazy.

[ben-zayb]

Isn't the answer "1, which has Leadership"?

[Andezzar]

Isn't the answer "1, which has Leadership"?Isn't then the question can a level 18 wizard beat a level 20 wizard?

[ben-zayb]

Isn't then the question can a level 18 wizard beat a level 20 wizard?

I'm not sure how much of a question is it, but it was still a product of 20 HD that happened to be Fighter 20 and a good enough Leadership score. So it technically works given the parameters.

But yeah, obviously, the opponent could be anything with 19-20 HD, 0-1 LA, and good enough charisma; the solution is undoubtedly against the "spirit of the challenge", but at this point we're talking about specific builds instead of the fighter class in a vacuum.

[Jack_Simth]

The bars of a Forcecage have half-inch gaps between them. Daggers, darts, sling bullets, javelins and similar weapons are simply too small to fit through.
Per the Spell in question (www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=18748146):
This version of the spell produces a 20-foot cube made of bands of force (similar to a wall of force spell) for bars. The bands are a half-inch wide, with half-inch gaps between them. Any creature capable of passing through such a small space can escape; others are confined. You can’t attack a creature in a barred cage with a weapon unless the weapon can fit between the gaps. Even against such weapons (including arrows and similar ranged attacks), a creature in the barred cage has cover. All spells and breath weapons can pass through the gaps in the bars. (emphasis added)

There will too be ranged attacks that can fit through that. The odd halfling fighter using sling bullets, perhaps. Or even darts.

[AvatarVecna]

Are PrCs on the table for fighters? For wizards? Because if Incantatrix is on the table, the Fighters are just totally hosed, no argument whatsoever (well, even more so than they already are).

EDIT: Human Wizard 10/Incantatrix 10 gets 7 feats from character level, 7 from class levels, 1 from Human, and generally 2 from Flaws. Once they have 8th lvl spells, that means they have access to the Dark Chaos Shuffle, allowing them to turn most of their feats (including Scribe Scroll) into metamagic feats. Incantatrix 10 means all metamagic costs, even not-real ones (like the ones used to calculate their 3rd lvl "free metamagic on existing effect" ability). Said ability gives free metamagic based on your ability to optimize your Spellcraft check.

Even with really basic optimization, you get 23 ranks, Int Mod of +13, Skill Focus, and a +30 Competence item of some kind. That's a +69, for a minimum Spellcraft check of 70. With the Incantatrix 3 ability, up to 16 spells are, eventually, 17th level with metamagic (when all metamagic feats have their metamagic cost reduced by 1). Furthermore, because of the reduction to all metamagic costs, free metamagic is easy, as long as you stack things right.

Still, even without Incantatrix, the Fighters are still totally hosed.

[SinsI]

What if limitations - for everyone - are a "WBL of 0"?
So wizard only has the spells from level ups, and fighters only have feats.

[AvatarVecna]

What if limitations - for everyone - are a "WBL of 0"?
So wizard only has the spells from level ups, and fighters only have feats.

Wizards take Vow of Poverty, find a way to memorize spells without needing their spellbook, and proceed to Dark Chaos Shuffle all of their Exalted feats into actually useful feats. And they still trounce the fighters, who are now even more hosed than they were before.

[atemu1234]

Wizards take Vow of Poverty, find a way to memorize spells without needing their spellbook, and proceed to Dark Chaos Shuffle all of their Exalted feats into actually useful feats. And they still trounce the fighters, who are now even more hosed than they were before.

3/4 of a fighter's power is WBL, after all.

[AvatarVecna]

The basis of this challenge assumes that a wizard can run out of spells. If the wizard can't run out of spells (http://ihititwithmyaxe.tumblr.com/post/46007651740/breaking-d-d-3-5-the-muscle-wizard-or-how-to), then the challenge is pointless.

[Greenish]

What if limitations - for everyone - are a "WBL of 0"?
So wizard only has the spells from level ups, and fighters only have feats.I don't think there's any amount of level 20 fighters who would pose a threat to a level 20 wizard with no gear.

[Threadnaught]

What if limitations - for everyone - are a "WBL of 0"?
So wizard only has the spells from level ups, and fighters only have feats.

Wizard can make stuff from nothing using several Spells, even without the 15gp Spellbook there's Eidetic Spellcaster for 0 wealth casting and additionally, Collegiate Wizard to boost the amount of Spells Known.

Then there's Wall of Salt to create enough Salt to raise enough cash to create a device to raise even more cash and a distribution system to raise even more.


Eventually, there should be enough Fighters beaten to take the Wizard all the way up to level 28. Then the question becomes How many level 20 Fighters with 0gp does it take to kill a level 28 Wizard?

In addition, Fighter with a Wizard gained through Leadership vs Wizard 20, is Fighter 20 and Wizard 18 vs Wizard 20.

[eggynack]

What if limitations - for everyone - are a "WBL of 0"?
So wizard only has the spells from level ups, and fighters only have feats.
Then the only chance the fighters ever had for victory, pretending to be wizards with money, vanishes into thin air. Because, really, at the lowest level you're still trying to take down a character virtually immune to damage with nothing but damage. Just a bad plan in general.

[OldTrees1]

Test:

1 Wizard has the standard "You can't find me" gear and is located somewhere inside the earth's crust.
The Wizard has 1 permanent Teleportation Circle aimed at where the battle will occur.
The Wizard Gates in a Solars for a Contractual service(1 day/caster level).
Each Solar casts Summon Monster VII at will once per turn choosing to summon 1d4+1 from the 5th level list.
The summoned monsters stream through the Teleportation Circle (in order of seniority) in clumps of 140d4+140.

1) How many Fighters can 140d4+140 Monsters from the 5th list slay?
2) How many Fighters does it take for there to be no casualties after 20 days of 140d4+140 monsters every 20 rounds?

[Killer Angel]

Isn't the answer "1, which has Leadership"?

Alternatively, how many 20th lev. WBL do you need, to hire a 20th lev. wizard?

[SinsI]

Then the only chance the fighters ever had for victory, pretending to be wizards with money, vanishes into thin air. Because, really, at the lowest level you're still trying to take down a character virtually immune to damage with nothing but damage. Just a bad plan in general.

Fighter 20 has like 20 free feats. Shape Soulmeld, Open Chakra, Tome of Battle Maneuvers... They will have plenty of "gear".

And note that XP is a form of Wealth too - so no Dark Chaos Shuffle. And no custom Contingent spells for Wizard. And "0 wealth" means "cost of Wall of Salt is 0".

I'd say 3-4 Fighters is going to be plenty to take down Wizard 20 with no wealth.

[atemu1234]

Fighter 20 has like 20 free feats. Shape Soulmeld, Open Chakra, Tome of Battle Maneuvers... They will have plenty of "gear".

And note that XP is a form of Wealth too - so no Dark Chaos Shuffle. And no custom Contingent spells for Wizard. And "0 wealth" means "cost of Wall of Salt is 0".

I'd say 3-4 Fighters is going to be plenty to take down Wizard 20 with no wealth.

Fly spell and meteor swarm. Still no contest. Seriously. Also, for fighter you've got 11 bonus feats, not "like 20".

Edit: And no wealth means no weapons.

[AvatarVecna]

Fighter 20 has like 20 free feats. Shape Soulmeld, Open Chakra, Tome of Battle Maneuvers... They will have plenty of "gear".

And note that XP is a form of Wealth too - so no Dark Chaos Shuffle. And no custom Contingent spells for Wizard. And "0 wealth" means "cost of Wall of Salt is 0".

I'd say 3-4 Fighters is going to be plenty to take down Wizard 20 with no wealth.

Pretty sure a "Locate City" bomb could take down more than 3-4.

Also, I've got some metamagic tricks incoming that don't require the expenditure of XP, except for DCS. Of course, there's plenty of spells that can make money for a wizard, and enough money can buy lots of thought bottles (or whatever the "stores XP for you" thing is called).

[DMVerdandi]

Wizard can make stuff from nothing using several Spells, even without the 15gp Spellbook there's Eidetic Spellcaster for 0 wealth casting and additionally, Collegiate Wizard to boost the amount of Spells Known.

Then there's Wall of Salt to create enough Salt to raise enough cash to create a device to raise even more cash and a distribution system to raise even more.


Eventually, there should be enough Fighters beaten to take the Wizard all the way up to level 28. Then the question becomes How many level 20 Fighters with 0gp does it take to kill a level 28 Wizard?

In addition, Fighter with a Wizard gained through Leadership vs Wizard 20, is Fighter 20 and Wizard 18 vs Wizard 20.

This. This is the only true way to judge and moderate the contest.
No magic items, PREFERABLY Pankration style (naked, in field of set distance). And with as little weapons or items as possible. Just mundane PHB weapons and possibly armor.

Wizard with a build that eliminates his need for a spell book.
Anytime items are the center of the build rather than the native abilities it has, it becomes impossible to truly judge what the usefulness of the class is.


Now, with crowd control, aoe, and other types of spells, along with buffs and such, The Wizard SHOULD be able to successfully kill maybe 50+ with a spell list prepared for the fight. Cloud spells, wall spells, and other battlefield control spells are really good at making it easy to kill.

Not only that, but with reserve feats, the wizard CAN blast the whole time.

So a 20wizard with Eidetic spell caster, Collegiate wizard, and maybe fiery blast as feats.
No items, No weapons, no armor. Massive capability to destroy.

Since fighter feats do directly interact with armor and weapons, I find it fair to give them mundane weapon options and access to their feats and ACF's. But even with that, against that one wizard much trouble happens.
Just in a gladiatorial setting, the wizard wrecks.

[eggynack]

Fighter 20 has like 20 free feats. Shape Soulmeld, Open Chakra, Tome of Battle Maneuvers... They will have plenty of "gear".
That's not enough to deal with, y'know, being impossible to kill.


And note that XP is a form of Wealth too - so no Dark Chaos Shuffle. And no custom Contingent spells for Wizard. And "0 wealth" means "cost of Wall of Salt is 0".
Don't really see how you figure. This is a 20th level wizard. That means you have the XP of a 20th level wizard.


I'd say 3-4 Fighters is going to be plenty to take down Wizard 20 with no wealth.

That conclusion seems laughable, based on just such a ridiculous density of stuff. The wizard can still use astral projection to send an infinite army of wizards to bring about your demise, and even without that, just normal spell use should be sufficient to make the efforts of a pile of fighters rather meaningless.

[Andezzar]

Don't really see how you figure. This is a 20th level wizard. That means you have the XP of a 20th level wizard.Not sure about DCS but most forms of XP expenditure do not allow you to go down a level, so a character with exactly enough XP to be level 20 will not have any "free" XP.

[eggynack]

Not sure about DCS but most forms of XP expenditure do not allow you to go down a level, so a character with exactly enough XP to be level 20 will not have any "free" XP.
True, but a 19th level wizard is akin to a 20th level wizard in power level, so what you'd want to do is lose a level in some fashion, perhaps to a wight, and thus end up with half the XP required to hit 20 to work with. Should be sufficient to do just about anything you'd like.

[Twurps]

What if limitations - for everyone - are a "WBL of 0"?
So wizard only has the spells from level ups, and fighters only have feats.

This is far from the original 'rules' of the chalenge. In fact it is just as far of as 'Lets do the chalenge without magic'.

Within the parameters of the original chalenge, specificallly: No resting and no regaining spells, the number of fighters needed depends highly on the size of the arena. (How much distance can a fighter keep without it being considered 'fleeing'.) With enough room to maneuver, Anytime the wizard makes himself invunerable, the fighter(s) can move away, and sit out the duration of the spell. Thus limiting the number of fighters the wizard can kill with one spell. A finite number of spells then means a finite number of fighters will do.

If everybody has to start the chalenge in a confined 'arena' style place, I tend to agree no number of fighters will do. (if the wizard has some prep time).

[Flickerdart]

5) Wizard runs out of natural 1 rerolls and appears.
So you're assuming that the wizard just sits around and accepts his fate when he has to repeatedly save against spell effects from nowhere?

[Threadnaught]

Fighter 20 has like 20 free feats. Shape Soulmeld, Open Chakra, Tome of Battle Maneuvers... They will have plenty of "gear".

And note that XP is a form of Wealth too - so no Dark Chaos Shuffle. And no custom Contingent spells for Wizard. And "0 wealth" means "cost of Wall of Salt is 0".

I'd say 3-4 Fighters is going to be plenty to take down Wizard 20 with no wealth.

If you're going to enforce the no wealth rule so strongly and deny the Wizard access to Eidetic Spellcaster, then you're really asking Can a Fighter 20 beat a Commoner 20?

Wall of Salt has no GP cost anyway, if the Wizard has Eschew Material Components, they can get money for nothing, unless you maintain that nothing has any value, which means they can still break WBL. Each Fighter they kill grants xp as if it were an encounter.


Additionally, a Fighter pretending to be an Incarnate, Totemist, Crusader, Swordsage or Warblade, isn't actually pretending to be a Wizard. These are different Classes, which don't get access to 9th level Spells as Wizard does. Wish and Antimagic spamming was the only reliable method Team Fighter had to overcome the Wizard, Wizard can out Fighter the Fighter without WBL, Fighter can't out Wizard the Wizard without WBL.

[eggynack]

Within the parameters of the original chalenge, specificallly: No resting and no regaining spells, the number of fighters needed depends highly on the size of the arena. (How much distance can a fighter keep without it being considered 'fleeing'.) With enough room to maneuver, Anytime the wizard makes himself invunerable, the fighter(s) can move away, and sit out the duration of the spell. Thus limiting the number of fighters the wizard can kill with one spell. A finite number of spells then means a finite number of fighters will do.

If everybody has to start the chalenge in a confined 'arena' style place, I tend to agree no number of fighters will do. (if the wizard has some prep time).
The wizard cannot be harmed, and he needs no spells to do so. Thus, given infinite time, he can presumably kill infinite fighters without resting, assuming he can ever hit anyone with a ranged attack of some kind. That becomes less of a thing if the fighters can flee perfectly without any hope of getting in range at any point, but if the fighter plan is to just get as far from the wizard as possible until the end of time, then I'm inclined to just call that wizard victory.

[AvatarVecna]

Here's a cool metamagic reduction cheese trick, based around a Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 5 build with fairly high char-op tricks (such as Otyugh Hole+Dark Chaos Shuffle+infinite money hacks+Thought Bottles=Infinite free feats).

The Low-Op version of this trick (no infinite money, infinite feats, infinite XP, or other ridiculous cheese) requires Arcane Thesis: Disintegrate, Invisible Spell, Sanctum Spell, and Chain Spell. You can now prepare Disintegrate with all 3 metamagics as a 6th lvl spell; it deals 40d6 (or 5d6 on a successful save) to 21 fighters per casting.

Now for the high-op version...

Prepare the "Disintegrate" spell with the following metamagic feats:

-Invisible Spell (+0)
-Sanctum Spell (+0)
-Deafening Spell (+1)
-Deceptive Spell (+1)
-Enlarge Spell (+1)
-Silent Spell (+1)
-Still Spell (+1)
-Transdimensional Spell (+1)
-Empower Spell (+2)
-Fell Drain (+2)
-Split Ray (+2)
-Chain Spell (+3)
-Guided Spell (+3)
-Repeat Spell (+3)
-Maximize Spell (+3)
-Irresistible Spell (+4)
-Quicken Spell (+4)
-Twin Spell (+4)

With 18 feats increasing the effective level by 36 before metamagic reduction, the final level of the spell is...6th. To clarify on what exactly this spell does, assuming the caster has the standard char-op Int of 34.

The Archmage of Disintegration beholds an army of Fighter 20s. Winning initiative (because Wizard), they cast the super-metamagic'd spell described above twice in the same round. This spell not only requires no verbal or somatic components, but can in fact appear to originate from any point within range the AoD wishes it to appear from, while still having no visible effect.

Each spell fires four powerful rays out when cast (and another four rays 6 seconds later), resulting in a total of 24 rays flying out from those two original spells when all is said and done. Each ray goes towards a different target, requiring a successful ranged touch attack to affect them. Unfortunately, with a range of 600 ft and a slew of illusion spells, it's unlikely that any of the fighters realize the wizard is there yet; between the wizard getting to target their Flat-Footed Touch AC and getting to ignore Concealment and Cover, the odds of any particular ray not hitting once in its 7 chances to do so are so astronomically low, they aren't worth mentioning. Not even the incorporeal are safe from the AoD's spells.

Once the spell eventually hits its target, and bypasses their SR, they must make a save; this save is either "DC: You Fail" or "DC: 40" after some feats increasing spell DC (which save you use depends on if you're using the errata for "Irresistible Spell". With the average Fighter 20 having a base Fort save of +12, with probably a Cloak of Resistance +5 and a total Con mod of +6, they probably have a +23, giving them a 20% chance of making the save (assuming they even get a save).

Furthermore, if the spell hits the primary target, it also hits 20 secondary targets within 30 ft of the primary target (or 60 ft if this range is also affected by the Enlarge Spell metamagic feat); the secondary targets only have to make saves 4 points lower than normal (assuming they get a save, of course). If they get a save, they have a 40% chance of succeeding.

The effects they suffer if they fail the save (or don't get one) are as thus: 20d6+240 damage (average 310), Deafened for 1 round, and has gained a negative level. The effects they suffer if they succeed on the save are as thus: 2d6+30 damage (average 37), Deafened for 1 round, and has gained a negative level.

Final results: given that the average Fighter 20 with Con 22 has about 234 HP, anyone who failed their save is now disintegrated, while the few fighters who succeeded have a big chunk of HP gone, are deafened, and have gained a negative level. There were 24 primary targets and 480 secondary targets...all from just those original 2 spells. While it's a little harder to calculate the exact number of primary targets that fall (it's probably somewhere around ~19), the number of secondary targets who fall should be right around 288 or so.

The Archmage of Disintegration has, assuming the Int 34 mentioned earlier, has (6) lvl 6 spells, (6) lvl 7 spells, (6) lvl 8 spells, and (5) lvl 9 spells per day. That allows for a total of 11 rounds like the one I just mentioned, which has the potential to wrack up an average body count of about 3377. Of course, that assumes that the wizard never targets any fighter twice, whether as a primary or a secondary. Obviously, stacking effects would make the body count rise, since they deliver damage and negative levels each time.

Of course, this body count assumes that the fighters even get a save; if they don't, then everybody targeted (all 504 fighters per round) are just dead, disintegrated away. That makes for a total of 5544 fighter corpses.

Get rekt.

EDIT: Of course, if its ruled that Irresistible Spell provides no save, then you can pull off this kind of combo with any ray spell of any level, as long as it does at least 240 damage on a failed save (after empower, maximize, and fell drain, of course). If a lower level ray spell with suffice, then you get even more rounds of this ridiculous combo, resulting in an even bigger pile of bodies.

[Flickerdart]

Irresistible spell is 3rd party, which is hardly kosher for such a challenge.

[AvatarVecna]

Irresistible spell is 3rd party, which is hardly kosher for such a challenge.

Then find some other way of making your spells impossible to resist; the exact method doesn't matter (infinite Int tricks, for instance, or abusing Heighten Spell the same way you're abusing the rest of the metamagic feats involved here), as long it results in a pile of dead Fighters.

[Jack_Simth]

Then find some other way of making your spells impossible to resist; the exact method doesn't matter (infinite Int tricks, for instance, or abusing Heighten Spell the same way you're abusing the rest of the metamagic feats involved here), as long it results in a pile of dead Fighters.Nat-20's.

If you ignore all of the infinite, neigh-infinite, uncapped loop tricks, and the particularly TO pre-buffs (like, say, arranging for a True Mind Switch with an Ice Assasin of an Aleax of a Psion-20 or some such) then there is going to be *some* combination of fighter-20 builds with equipment that'll take down Mr. Wizard eventually.

[Andezzar]

True, but a 19th level wizard is akin to a 20th level wizard in power level, so what you'd want to do is lose a level in some fashion, perhaps to a wight, and thus end up with half the XP required to hit 20 to work with. Should be sufficient to do just about anything you'd like.Well then it is no longer a battle between Wizard 20 and Fighter 20 but Wizard 19 and Fighter 20.


Wall of Salt has no GP cost anyway, if the Wizard has Eschew Material Components, they can get money for nothing, unless you maintain that nothing has any value, which means they can still break WBL. Each Fighter they kill grants xp as if it were an encounter.There is no XP for individual fighters. There is one XP reward for the entirety of the fighters.


Then find some other way of making your spells impossible to resist; the exact method doesn't matter (infinite Int tricks, for instance, or abusing Heighten Spell the same way you're abusing the rest of the metamagic feats involved here), as long it results in a pile of dead Fighters.Even with an infinite casting stat and thus save DC everyone has a 5% save chance.


Irresistible spell is 3rd party, which is hardly kosher for such a challenge.
On top of that AFAIK it has been errataed/replaced by a new feat which just give a huge bonus.

[Twurps]

@eggynack: I'm assuming within the rules, the wizard has to be present (so no 'hiding in the crust of the earth' things). How is the wizard then being invunerable without using spells.

Oh.. and: Gating in a extraplanar, that gates in an exptraplanar, that gates in... Sound like infinite loop to me. So that's a no-no.

@AvatarVecna (And others): Incantatrix does not equal Wizard. If the wizard is allowed to multiclass, we should allow the fighter to do so as well. Then we need a whole new set of rules and rules lawyering. ('Can the fighter multiclass as a wizard after lvl 1?' comes to mind)

[Andezzar]

If you sufficiently limit the options of the wizard, chances improve that the fighters will win. I don't mean the multiclassing, that should be prohibited for both sides. Solar army need not be infinite. As many solars as there are fighters is probably more than enough.

Being immune to weapon damage is no problem even without burrowing for the wizard.

[atemu1234]

@eggynack: I'm assuming within the rules, the wizard has to be present (so no 'hiding in the crust of the earth' things). How is the wizard then being invunerable without using spells.

Oh.. and: Gating in a extraplanar, that gates in an exptraplanar, that gates in... Sound like infinite loop to me. So that's a no-no.

@AvatarVecna (And others): Incantatrix does not equal Wizard. If the wizard is allowed to multiclass, we should allow the fighter to do so as well. Then we need a whole new set of rules and rules lawyering. ('Can the fighter multiclass as a wizard after lvl 1?' comes to mind)

Fine. Wizard 20 casts Time Stop. With the round from that he uses greater teleport to get up 3 miles into the atmosphere, whereupon he casts fly (even if the time stop ends). He is now outside of range of anything they can do. But, he can at this point to the following: cast Invisible Spell Wall of Stone. He creates a massive wall of stone that no fighter can perceive without magic items, which because they have WBL 0, they cannot purchase. He lets it drop in the form of a 1 ft. thick, 125,000 square foot area., which would crush any and all fighters beneath him.

[AvatarVecna]

Nat-20's.

If you ignore all of the infinite, neigh-infinite, uncapped loop tricks, and the particularly TO pre-buffs (like, say, arranging for a True Mind Switch with an Ice Assasin of an Aleax of a Psion-20 or some such) then there is going to be *some* combination of fighter-20 builds with equipment that'll take down Mr. Wizard eventually.

A single natural 20 only saves them from some of the damage, and since it's not an area effect, mettle doesn't do anything to reduce it further. Since it's not a particular energy, DR can help, but you can only have so much of that. And regardless of how you do on the save, you still get a negative level from Fell Drain. The fighters only survive if the wizard never tries to stack the effects, or even if the wizard never bothers with anything but this uber-blast.

If I were actually playing the Archmage of Disintegration, I'd start the battle with one Uber-Disintegrate and use that odd 9th lvl spell to metamagic the hell out of a Cloudkill spell; the Incantatrix can get up to (Int mod) spells per day improved up to an effective spell level of {(Spellcraft bonus-17)/3}; with 23 ranks, Int 34, a +30 competence item, and Skill Focus, that's +69, meaning up to at least 17th lvl spells effectively (with all metamagic reduced by 1 lvl).

You're right about one thing: if the wizard is avoiding TO (that is, "True Optimization"*), then the Fighters can...eventually, maybe do something.

*: Yes, I know it actually stands for Theoretical Optimization, I'm just being snarky.

[eggynack]

Well then it is no longer a battle between Wizard 20 and Fighter 20 but Wizard 19 and Fighter 20.
The starting condition is still a 20th level wizard. What he does from there is up to him, I figure. These levels are resources, and he can use them however he wishes.

@eggynack: I'm assuming within the rules, the wizard has to be present (so no 'hiding in the crust of the earth' things). How is the wizard then being invunerable without using spells.

Hide life. It's a spell, but it doesn't require the continual input of spells.

[georgie_leech]

A single natural 20 only saves them from some of the damage, and since it's not an area effect, mettle doesn't do anything to reduce it further. Since it's not a particular energy, DR can help, but you can only have so much of that. And regardless of how you do on the save, you still get a negative level from Fell Drain. The fighters only survive if the wizard never tries to stack the effects, or even if the wizard never bothers with anything but this uber-blast.



Quibble: since when does Mettle care about whether it's an AoE?

[Twurps]

Fine. Wizard 20 casts Time Stop. With the round from that he uses greater teleport to get up 3 miles into the atmosphere, whereupon he casts fly (even if the time stop ends). He is now outside of range of anything they can do. But, he can at this point to the following: cast Invisible Spell Wall of Stone. He creates a massive wall of stone that no fighter can perceive without magic items, which because they have WBL 0, they cannot purchase. He lets it drop in the form of a 1 ft. thick, 125,000 square foot area., which would crush any and all fighters beneath him.

First: Is getting 3 miles up Fleeing? Lets assume it isn't, so this is a big arena. That might actually help the fighters so that's fine.
Second: Rules state normal WBL, so yes, some fighters might see this comming, some fighters have items of flight and escape the wall that way, some fighters are not in the affected area etc. The wizard has expended 3 spells, the duration of which will run out.
I'm not saying the wizard won't take out a significant number of fighters, only that the number is finite, and defined by the best 'kills per spell' ratio the wizard can come up with.

Also, I'm getting really curious by now. How does a wizard without using spells (So basicly: a commoner) get immune to weapon damage? Is there some trick I'm missing?
Edit: 'hide life' Thanks eggynack.
That makes the wizard pretty hard to kill, but not te defeat, as he can still be rendered immobile/grappled etc. and unable to continue the fight.

[eggynack]

Also, I'm getting really curious by now. How does a wizard without using spells (So basicly: a commoner) get immune to weapon damage? Is there some trick I'm missing?
As I said, hide life. It's a spell from tome and blood that hides away your life force such that nothing can kill you, and it has an instantaneous duration. You're making use of a spell, certainly, but you don't have to keep casting or recasting, so you can just go forever.

[Jack_Simth]

A single natural 20 only saves them from some of the damage, and since it's not an area effect, mettle doesn't do anything to reduce it further. Since it's not a particular energy, DR can help, but you can only have so much of that. And regardless of how you do on the save, you still get a negative level from Fell Drain. The fighters only survive if the wizard never tries to stack the effects, or even if the wizard never bothers with anything but this uber-blast.
There's actually quite a few ways around any one thing. There is always going to be *some* combination of builds with equipment that will get around whatever is being done. Fell Drain, for instance, gets neutered by the oft-overlooked (for good reason, don't get me wrong) Scarab of Protection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#scarabofProtection). If you turn around and say "so just do it 30 times" or some such, there's equipment for that, too (check out the magical armor proprerties in the Book of Exalted Deeds) and racial picks that can get around it (Necropolitan comes to mind). There's also various feats for shedding negative levels quickly.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying "One Fighter-20 can beat one arbitrary Wizard-20" - that'd be silly - but that there is going to be some combination of varied-build Fighters which, if you throw enough of them at a particular wizard build, will be capable of defeating the Wizard to within the confines of the critera proposed by molten_dragon in the OP.



If I were actually playing the Archmage of Disintegration, I'd start the battle with one Uber-Disintegrate and use that odd 9th lvl spell to metamagic the hell out of a Cloudkill spell; the Incantatrix can get up to (Int mod) spells per day improved up to an effective spell level of {(Spellcraft bonus-17)/3}; with 23 ranks, Int 34, a +30 competence item, and Skill Focus, that's +69, meaning up to at least 17th lvl spells effectively (with all metamagic reduced by 1 lvl).

You're right about one thing: if the wizard is avoiding TO (that is, "True Optimization"*), then the Fighters can...eventually, maybe do something.

*: Yes, I know it actually stands for Theoretical Optimization, I'm just being snarky.

As noted by Twurps: " @AvatarVecna (And others): Incantatrix does not equal Wizard. If the wizard is allowed to multiclass, we should allow the fighter to do so as well. Then we need a whole new set of rules and rules lawyering. ('Can the fighter multiclass as a wizard after lvl 1?' comes to mind)". Additionally, as noted in the question by the OP, we're looking at "level 20 fighters" and "a level 20 wizard" - if you've got a Wizard-5/Incantatrix-10/Archmage-5, he's not exactly a Wizard-20 anymore, so there's no particular reason that you're not facing an arbitrarily large number of Fighter-1/Wizard-5/Incantatrix-10/Archmage-4's under those circumstances (after all: A Wizard can be a better Fighter than the Fighter, right?).

And, of course, if the Fighters engage in similar levels of TO, they've got options for some of the exact same stuff the wizard is doing! The classic (but by no means the only) being using a Lawful-Evil candle of Invocation to Gate in an Efreeti for three cheap wishes to do things like, say, get a pre-loaded Greater Ring of Spell Storing that has Ice Assasin of an Aleax of an Elan Telepath Psion-20, a Power Stone of True Mind Switch, and another LE candle of Invocation. Fighter uses Greater Ring of Spell storing, hands the Power Stone to the Ice Assasin Aleax, orders it to True Mind Switch with the fighter... and now you're facing a Fighter that gets to flat-out ignore everything you do to it. There was a thread a while back about Wishes being TO Complete, and there's Core methods for a Fighter - with no UMD at all - to get Wishes via WBL.

[137beth]

Step 1: Generate several tens of thousands of ice assassins.
Step 2: Hide life.
Step 3:More ice assassins!
Step 4: Win (no need for profit after you've broken WBL).

[Greenish]

Fine. Wizard 20 casts Time Stop. With the round from that he uses greater teleport to get up 3 miles into the atmosphere, whereupon he casts fly (even if the time stop ends). He is now outside of range of anything they can do. But, he can at this point to the following: cast Invisible Spell Wall of Stone. He creates a massive wall of stone that no fighter can perceive without magic items, which because they have WBL 0, they cannot purchase. He lets it drop in the form of a 1 ft. thick, 125,000 square foot area., which would crush any and all fighters beneath him.You can't go all "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" with Walls of Stone, or any other Conjuration spell:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

[Twurps]

As I said, hide life. It's a spell from tome and blood that hides away your life force such that nothing can kill you, and it has an instantaneous duration. You're making use of a spell, certainly, but you don't have to keep casting or recasting, so you can just go forever.

I got ninja'd editing my post. I had never heard of that spell, so learned something new today.
That would certainly help the wizard and make him impossible to kill for the fighter who (I assume) are also not allowed to flee. fortunately for the fighters the 'unable to continue fighting' part of their goal is still obtainable.

[atemu1234]

You can't go all "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" with Walls of Stone, or any other Conjuration spell:

Alright. Cast it on top of an immovable rod. Then disengage it.

For WBL 0, instead just cast Summon Monster IX. Repeatedly. Because DR.

[Karl Aegis]

Do Fighters have anything in particular to beat cross-class disguise checks boosted by whatever spells the Wizard wants?

[Snowbluff]

Ironguard. It's not even that good of spell and you're immune to most of what a fight can do, barring a club.

[Jack_Simth]

Ironguard. It's not even that good of spell and you're immune to most of what a fight can do, barring a club.
Or quarterstaff, or GDM (a couple of ways for the fighters to get it), or Improved Unarmed Strike, or stone sling bullets, or...

Do Fighters have anything in particular to beat cross-class disguise checks boosted by whatever spells the Wizard wants?
Cross-class Spot bosted by whatever magic items the Fighters want?

[Frostthehero]

I would argue that a single fighter with leadership can also beat him. That fighter brings along a level 18 sorcerer who is an archmage who happens to have shape spell, and improved counterspell, and arcane reach. This sorcerer shapes an antimagic field such that he has a single 5 foot hole in his antimagic field. He also has mindblank cast on himself, and fly. This sorcerer then begins casting shivering touches at a range of 30 feet at the wizard (or pretty much any other spell, that was just the first that came to mind).

[Twurps]

Ironguard. It's not even that good of spell and you're immune to most of what a fight can do, barring a club.

By the time the wizard has to resort to Ironguard, the fight is all but over, and fighters have won. Clubs, unarmed attacks, and more importantly: Grapples still hurt a lot. If I was on 'team fighter' the first fighter to reach the wizard would start a grapple, and subsequently a pin. And for added fun: Activate his AMF item while grappling the flying wizard, See who has a better chance to survive the fall.

Anything the wizard doesn't kill/permanently incapacitate outright is going to be a nuisance to him, enough nuisances, an his spellcasting gets seriously disrupted -> win team fighter.

[OldTrees1]

So has anyone answered "How many fighters would die from 140d4+140 Hound Archons appearing every 20 rounds for 20 days?"

[Flickerdart]

Grapples still hurt a lot.
Grapples haven't hurt a lot since level 5 when heart of water came online.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would argue that a single fighter with leadership can also beat him. That fighter brings along a level 18 sorcerer who is an archmage who happens to have shape spell, and improved counterspell, and arcane reach. This sorcerer shapes an antimagic field such that he has a single 5 foot hole in his antimagic field. He also has mindblank cast on himself, and fly. This sorcerer then begins casting shivering touches at a range of 30 feet at the wizard (or pretty much any other spell, that was just the first that came to mind).
If it's on the table, I doubt that the wizard wouldn't also have leadership, getting them another wizard with leadership, getting them another wizard and so on, which then gets them some of the useful class features that he couldn't get because prestiging is banned, just like your fighter does. I don't think either class gets any special benefit from having loads of followers or cohorts, and if one does, it's the wizard (buffing warrior 1 to be useful*, use commoners as sacrifices, get a squire of legend to concentrate on your spells for you etcetera). For the purposes of this thread, let's ignore the leadership arms race.


*Is there a way to get a persistant chained shapechange on a wizard 20? Because 20 solars per casting is fairly useful.

[Twurps]

Grapples haven't hurt a lot since level 5 when heart of water came online.

You mean the 1 round/level freedom of movement will help? Are we now burning spells just to make it through 2 minutes of the battle?

@Oldtrees1: I actually like your 'summoning' plan because it gives the longest duration of protection mentioned so far. (Excluding 'hide life' but that offers no offensive powers) It helps the poor lonely wizard with his action economy and it also provides a means of 'sweeping the battlefield clear of fighters (Assuming the battlefield is finite, and fighters are also not allowed to flee). If the wizard is going to win, it's going to be by having whiped the battlefield clean before running out of spells, rather then outlasting the fighters.

The 'summoning them from within the crust of the earth' part might not be within the rules of the chalenge, as the wizard has to be present on the battlefield. Also, correct me if I'm wrong (As I never play at this kind of optimization) but wouldn't the maximum number of solars you can gate in and control be 1? With that Solar also being present on the battlefield it would produce only 1d4+1 hound archons per round (with pretty limited lifetime on the battlefield).
A very respectable force, but it's not going to whipe out a decent group of optimized fighters. also not going to be enough (on it's own) to prevent attacks from happening against both the solar and the wizard.

[Zanos]

Irresistible spell is 3rd party, which is hardly kosher for such a challenge.
KoK is third party, but is officially licensed by WoTC, and the books have the Dunegons and Dragons, d20 and WoTC logos. As I recall the book with the errata for irresistible spell was published after their deal had expired, and is not legal, while the broken version is.

[OldTrees1]

@Oldtrees1: I actually like your 'summoning' plan because it gives the longest duration of protection mentioned so far. (Excluding 'hide life' but that offers no offensive powers) It helps the poor lonely wizard with his action economy and it also provides a means of 'sweeping the battlefield clear of fighters (Assuming the battlefield is finite, and fighters are also not allowed to flee). If the wizard is going to win, it's going to be by having whiped the battlefield clean before running out of spells, rather then outlasting the fighters.

The 'summoning them from within the crust of the earth' part might not be within the rules of the chalenge, as the wizard has to be present on the battlefield. Also, correct me if I'm wrong (As I never play at this kind of optimization) but wouldn't the maximum number of solars you can gate in and control be 1? With that Solar also being present on the battlefield it would produce only 1d4+1 hound archons per round (with pretty limited lifetime on the battlefield).
A very respectable force, but it's not going to whipe out a decent group of optimized fighters. also not going to be enough (on it's own) to prevent attacks from happening against both the solar and the wizard.

My reading of the rules of engagement is that the Wizard is not allowed to leave or regain spells. I don't think there is anything stopping the Wizard from softening up the Fighter army before arriving.

I was having the Wizard control 1 Solar per casting of Gate. If you can't control 2 Solars with 2 castings simultaneously, then change it to 20d4+20 Air Elementals per 20 rounds for 140 days.

My biggest concern is eventually there will be enough fighters to slay all the Elementals in response to them appearing. But that is a fairly high number of Fighters. Somewhere below that number is the number of Fighters that would eventually all die from attrition to the bursts of Elemental wrath.

My primary goal was to gain an At Will offensive ability so that the wizard could do the most damage for the least investment.

[Malroth]

Honestly any fighter who somehow makes it to 20 is going to know how to use WBL to replicate wizard tricks or he died off 15 levels ago, besides the ones who Wish/true Mind switched themselves into monster manual entry X you're facing a NI amount of Disjunction scrolls and Zodar shapechanges the moment their Initative count comes up the answer to how much of this any wizard can stand up to is going to be Finite.

[Flickerdart]

You mean the 1 round/level freedom of movement will help? Are we now burning spells just to make it through 2 minutes of the battle?
It's used in the rare cases that a fighter will actually get close enough to grapple and succeed in the attempt, like a super-cheap contingency. It's not like the wizard has a shortage of 3rd level spells, either from his own slots or scrolls and other items.

[Bob of Mage]

One thing I'd like to know is a build that could do unlimited damage for unlimited turns. All I've heard is how to make the Wizard unkillable, which isn't the same thing. At best (for the Wizard) there would be a stalemate, at worse the Fighters find a way around all the safeguards with enough time (unlimited rings of three wishs would help speed that along).


Test:

1 Wizard has the standard "You can't find me" gear and is located somewhere inside the earth's crust.
The Wizard has 1 permanent Teleportation Circle aimed at where the battle will occur.
The Wizard Gates in a Solars for a Contractual service(1 day/caster level).
Each Solar casts Summon Monster VII at will once per turn choosing to summon 1d4+1 from the 5th level list.
The summoned monsters stream through the Teleportation Circle (in order of seniority) in clumps of 140d4+140.

1) How many Fighters can 140d4+140 Monsters from the 5th list slay?
2) How many Fighters does it take for there to be no casualties after 20 days of 140d4+140 monsters every 20 rounds?

Any object blocking the far end of the Teleportation Circle stops it from working. All your need someone standing in the space to shut the whole thing down. An unlimited army of level 20 Fighter should be able to stop one of the summons from leaving the the end space long before all the beings arrive.

Also in the case of the solar you have to hope that it will agree to even help the Wizard kill all those Fighters. What happens if a large number of them are using exalted options and are thus very good aligned? Fat chance in hell the solar will help.

[eggynack]

One thing I'd like to know is a build that could do unlimited damage for unlimited turns.
A crossbow. A reserve feat could work too, if you want a more magical method.

[OldTrees1]

Any object blocking the far end of the Teleportation Circle stops it from working. All your need someone standing in the space to shut the whole thing down. An unlimited army of level 20 Fighter should be able to stop one of the summons from leaving the the end space long before all the beings arrive.

Also in the case of the solar you have to hope that it will agree to even help the Wizard kill all those Fighters. What happens if a large number of them are using exalted options and are thus very good aligned? Fat chance in hell the solar will help.

Slight modification then. Change the end point to a small air bubble underneath the fighter army and change the monsters to Earth Elementals.

The Solar agrees because that is how the called creature service contract part of Gate works at this OP level. Also we were told to assume a variety of Fighters, the majority are not Exalted.

Now obviously there exists a large yet finite quantity of Fighters for which the Elemental Wrath would do nothing (and a smaller finite quantity where there are surviving Fighters).

[Auron3991]

Actually, as long as ToB is involved, the real question here is how many fighters does it take for a gnome or halfling to hit the wizard once. One can easily get a potion or wand containing a spell modified by metamagic feats (say one from Complete Champion) and the fighter bonus feats can go towards getting the maneuvers and stance necessary.

[OldTrees1]

Actually, as long as ToB is involved, the real question here is how many fighters does it take for a gnome or halfling to hit the wizard once. One can easily get a potion or wand containing a spell modified by metamagic feats (say one from Complete Champion) and the fighter bonus feats can go towards getting the maneuvers and stance necessary.

Huh? What are you talking about? Remember the opening post banned infinite tricks. Not to mention that anyone worth their salt would bring "immunity to death by damage" to a fight with an army.

[Bob of Mage]

Huh? What are you talking about? Remember the opening post banned infinite tricks. Not to mention that anyone worth their salt would bring "immunity to death by damage" to a fight with an army.

Just for the record what method would you use to get "immunity to death by damage"?

[OldTrees1]

Just for the record what method would you use to get "immunity to death by damage"?

The Hide Life spell was mentioned before, it works for thought exercises like this.

In an actual campaign at my OP level I would use Delay Death instead because it is less powerful.

[Auron3991]

Huh? What are you talking about? Remember the opening post banned infinite tricks. Not to mention that anyone worth their salt would bring "immunity to death by damage" to a fight with an army.

Whoops, missed the no infinite loops (although, to slightly exonerate myself, it's not actually a loop). I assume the stance is still valid though, just not the dumb combo. Which still turns it into how long it takes to get a hit with a lucky streak, it's just not necessarily one hit. I'm also confused about this 'immunity to lose by damage'. Even regeneration would have them get knocked out by the hit, which indicates a lose condition.

[OldTrees1]

Whoops, missed the no infinite loops (although, to slightly exonerate myself, it's not actually a loop). I assume the stance is still valid though, just not the dumb combo. Which still turns it into how long it takes to get a hit with a lucky streak, it's just not necessarily one hit. I'm also confused about this 'immunity to lose by damage'. Even regeneration would have them get knocked out by the hit, which indicates a lose condition.

Technically I said "immunity to death by damage" but the Hide Life spell stated earlier would also prevent unconsciousness (although interestingly enough not from nonlethal damage).

[Bob of Mage]

Technically I said "immunity to death by damage" but the Hide Life spell stated earlier would also prevent unconsciousness (although interestingly enough not from nonlethal damage).

Hide Life only works as long as the Fighters can't find the body part. In other words you just turn yourself into a poweredup lich. Any effort pre-battle to hide the body part would allow the Fighter equal effort per-battle. The casting time is a day so it won't be useless in the heat of battle. As you said yourself it also would not stop Fighters from just punching the Wizard into defeat (once the Wizard is out cold you just wish for the part and destory it.)

[Wings of Peace]

I think something worth considering in this thought experiment is what the win conditions are. Is victory achieved when one faction has eliminated all members of the other faction from existence? In that case the Wizard may not even need to directly combat the fighters if he lures them to his location then remotely uses magic and WBLomancy to reset the plane to an earlier time thereby eliminating the fighters from existence (via magic and psionic-item time travel shennanigans). The level of optimization is also important because while an army of fighters doesn't sound intimidating an army of commoners with the WBL of a level 20 PC is still a credible threat with enough loops and magic item shenanigan. The usage of WBL period needs to be defined since depending on the circumstances of the engagement the fighters might be able to fight as Wizards via WBL but with more hoops needed to accomplish their goals.

Edit: Changed a word for clarity.

[OldTrees1]

Hide Life only works as long as the Fighters can't find the body part. In other words you just turn yourself into a poweredup lich. Any effort pre-battle to hide the body part would allow the Fighter equal effort per-battle. The casting time is a day so it won't be useless in the heat of battle. As you said yourself it also would not stop Fighters from just punching the Wizard into defeat (once the Wizard is out cold you just wish for the part and destory it.)

It takes less time to hide something then it takes to find out about something and then find it (Ignoring a Greater Wish). However I don't think it is a big deal. Fighters are not limited to damage as a means of defeating the Wizard (even if it had immunity to non lethal damage).

Actually the Fighters don't have to do anything to the Wizard. The Wizard can't use infinite loops which means eventually the Wizard will run low on options and have to rest(quitting).

That is why I made the low ball test of the 20d4+20 Medium Earth Elementals ever 2 minutes for 140 days offense. What is the most 20th level Fighters that would be eliminated by that method?

[Snowbluff]

By the time the wizard has to resort to Ironguard, the fight is all but over, and fighters have won. Clubs, unarmed attacks, and more importantly: Grapples still hurt a lot. If I was on 'team fighter' the first fighter to reach the wizard would start a grapple, and subsequently a pin. And for added fun: Activate his AMF item while grappling the flying wizard, See who has a better chance to survive the fall.

Anything the wizard doesn't kill/permanently incapacitate outright is going to be a nuisance to him, enough nuisances, an his spellcasting gets seriously disrupted -> win team fighter.

AMFed Fighters are easier to kill than regular fighters. They are stuck with mundane flight speeds at that time, and can't use their magic items. Most conjurations, Simulacra/Ice Assassins, and force spells still work, too. They don't really have a much better chance of surviving the fall, either. Fall damage caps at 20d6, which won't kill a level 20 character.

Most fighters don't have the Spellcraft to identify Ironguard, anyway. Grappling and Unarmed Strikes really suck if you're a fight. As far as "already won," I've decided the use of that term means the person overestimated their argument.

As for resting, does the fighter have a response to Superior Invisibility and Mindblank outside of extreme WBL? Does resting count as quitting?

I personally think the WBLmancy thing isn't really useful for the discussion in the first place. Everyone has WBL. If a wizard wanted to, he could flood the whole planet in just gold pieces... centuries in the past, preventing any of the fighters and himself from being born. Is a fighter who fights with nothing but WBL even a fighter?

[Karl Aegis]

I don't think an arena where something as mundane as "falling" is a real hazard is an appropriate locale for a contest between 20th level characters. I believe something more exotic would be more preferable for 20th level characters. The previously mentioned "below the celestial body's crust" seems appropriate as does the deepest levels of the ocean's floor. Multiple permanent walls of force floating inside of a gigantic tornado that is on fire on the plane of Limbo may be too extreme for 20th level, but it would be a pretty awesome backdrop in my opinion.

At least some quantity of every party's wealth should be dedicated to surviving, moving, hiding and detecting others inside of one of these environments.

[Snowbluff]

I don't think an arena where something as mundane as "falling" is a real hazard is an appropriate locale for a contest between 20th level characters. I believe something more exotic would be more preferable for 20th level characters. The previously mentioned "below the celestial body's crust" seems appropriate as does the deepest levels of the ocean's floor. Multiple permanent walls of force floating inside of a gigantic tornado that is on fire on the plane of Limbo may be too extreme for 20th level, but it would be a pretty awesome backdrop in my opinion.

At least some quantity of every party's wealth should be dedicated to surviving, moving, hiding and detecting others inside of one of these environments.
I don't think I like this. People just spend some money on working with the environment. As much as I like the idea of a crazy fight, it doesn't serve the argument. The wizard could get by spending much less wealth, which I think just stilts things. I mean, most of a character's wealth just goes into not falling off the RNG in the first place.

[Eldan]

Actually, how about we look at fighter tricks for a bit? That should be interesting.

Races: I'm keeping mostly to no-LA races here, otherwise we're throwing this wide open.

Necropolitan: right away, the exception. Really valuable for the long list of immunities.
Raptoran: because natural flight will be very valuable.
Any others? Apart from the usual water-blooded three-quarter desert-born pink-painted orc-giant for high strength.

Feats:
Maneuvers are a big one. Even just at level one, there are a lot of quite nice ones.
Bind Vestige: should absolutely be on there. That's a giant barrel of variety, right there.
And of course:
Incarnum. Every fighter should have some.

[OldTrees1]

Actually, how about we look at fighter tricks for a bit? That should be interesting.

Sure.
The OP said there would be a variety so I think we would see many races/builds in addition to the forum norms (maybe even Kobold Fighters).

I see (this is not a partition so overlap is expected):

Damage focused fighters (usually Strength or Ranged)
Mobility focused fighters (usually having Ex flight via Raptorian/Dragonborn/Dragon Wings/Aberrant Blood but also including Blinking and Teleporting)
Resilience focused fighters (usually with racial immunities via Undead/Warforged)
Avoidance focused fighters ("nah nah na na nah, you can't get/hit/target me!" Some of these would have total cover/total concealment tricks)
Spotters (these would identify the wizard's/minions' location via various means to enable the other Fighters to engage)

[Eldan]

Hmm. Without LA, what senses can we get? Is there a good way to get Tremorsense?

There's soulmelds that gain telepathy, IIRC, I'm wondering if one could get those and then qualify for Mindsight.

[Hamste]

Hmm, what if we hide the finger from hide life in a glove of storing stuck it on a newborn child that you kill the entire family of (or remove all memory of) and then cast imprisonment on it. Give it an absurdly long name that would take years to say again and what ever other protections you can give it from divination.


Would that stop people from just wishing for it? If not is there a way to graft it onto the baby? Maybe find an older child that can wildshape and do this while the items are morphed in their body from wild-shape.

[ahenobarbi]

Sure.
The OP said there would be a variety so I think we would see many races/builds in addition to the forum norms (maybe even Kobold Fighters).

I see (this is not a partition so overlap is expected):

Damage focused fighters (usually Strength or Ranged)
Mobility focused fighters (usually having Ex flight via Raptorian/Dragonborn/Dragon Wings/Aberrant Blood but also including Blinking and Teleporting)
Resilience focused fighters (usually with racial immunities via Undead/Warforged)
Avoidance focused fighters ("nah nah na na nah, you can't get/hit/target me!" Some of these would have total cover/total concealment tricks)
Spotters (these would identify the wizard's/minions' location via various means to enable the other Fighters to engage)


You forgot caster fighters. Human fighter 20 with 2 flaws gets 21 feats (1 (human) + 2 (flaws) + 7 (levelling) + 11 (fighter bonus)) this (with help of Chaos Shuffle) gives you 18 9th levels slots and 1 8th level slot (prepared as wizard)(and caster level 5). Sure paying for some 30 casings of Chaos shuffle will eat a good chunk of your WBL but it's well spent money.

[Aharon]

[QUOTE=Belial_the_Leveler;18746644]I'll try it with core only;

1) Time Stop

2) Forcecage, centered on self

3) Wind Wall, own space

4) Widened Antimagic Field, mastered to exclude own space.

If you use the Windowless Cell Version of Forcecage, you can't cast out because you don't have line of effect. The 20ft. cage version will be cancelled out by your own widened antimagic field. The Wind Wall will also be cancelled out by your own antimagic field/if it is farther away, the fighters can just walk through.

[LoyalPaladin]

I feel like a 10 Fighter / 10 Justiciar with Cloak of the Mounteback and Anti-Magic shackles could be pretty effective. Perhaps I am wrong.

[eggynack]

I feel like a 10 Fighter / 10 Justiciar with Cloak of the Mounteback and Anti-Magic shackles could be pretty effective. Perhaps I am wrong.
I'm pretty doubtful on multiple levels. First, the cloak works as dimension door, which means that you lose all actions after you use it. Not much opportunity to use the shackles afterwards. Second, you need to establish a grapple, which could be impossible either due to heart of water or a ring of freedom of movement. Third, the shackles only work on small to large opponents, and with shapechange as a very likely casting, the wizard can easily not fall within that size range. Fourth, you need to get an attack off in the first place, which is a plan that can fail against any number of defenses, ranging from miss chance to just not being where the fighters are. Fifth, there's the obvious issue that you're making use of a prestige class where there's no apparent allowance for that. If the fighter can use a prestige class, then you could be dealing with even more potent defenses on the part of the wizard.

[AvatarVecna]

The whole premise of this challenge is based around putting a wizard in a position where they'd never realistically be: ignoring that we have no idea how we fit a theoretically infinite number of fighters into a finite area, the wizard has no option but to stay and fight until they run out of spells; that's not how wizards roll.

Realistically, the way to win a "fight" like this is to win initiative: whoever wins initiative can Teleport Through Time, stop anybody else from being able to Teleport Through Time, and then tracking down every person they would've faced in that "fight" and killing them as a baby (note: this method requires some means of becoming immune to death by aging, which is easy enough).

[Flickerdart]

Realistically, the way to win a "fight" like this is to win initiative: whoever wins initiative can Teleport Through Time, stop anybody else from being able to Teleport Through Time, and then tracking down every person they would've faced in that "fight" and killing them as a baby (note: this method requires some means of becoming immune to death by aging, which is easy enough).
This works only if the fighters are only infinite in space. If they are also infinite in time, travelling to the past will just pit you against more fighters. This also solves the problem of infinite fighters in a finite space - as long as there are only very large amounts of fighters at any given time, they can just replenish their fallen with newly spawning fighters.

[Threadnaught]

This works only if the fighters are only infinite in space. If they are also infinite in time, travelling to the past will just pit you against more fighters.

Actually, if they're infinite in time, they find the newborn Wizard and murder them as a baby, beginning a whole new Alignment thread, Fighter20 vs Baby Wizard, is it Evil?

[Flickerdart]

Actually, if they're infinite in time, they find the newborn Wizard and murder them as a baby, beginning a whole new Alignment thread, Fighter20 vs Baby Wizard, is it Evil?
Wizards come out of the womb already tattooed with their spellbook with active contingencies in case of boo-boos.

Actually, that's a pretty rockin' character idea - a wizard tattooed with a spellbook by someone else, unraveling the mystery of what the spells actually are as he gains levels.

[Snowbluff]

If we have infinite fighter occupying all of infinite space time, how is there any oxygen left to breath?

[Telonius]

How many Fighters to give the Wizard a challenge?

That depends. How many worshipers does it take to make a deity?

[Greenish]

If we have infinite fighter occupying all of infinite space time, how is there any oxygen left to breath?Infinite amulets of adaption.

[Snowbluff]

Infinite amulets of adaption.

Do the fighter know to do that? :smalltongue:

[Twurps]

The whole premise of this challenge is based around putting a wizard in a position where they'd never realistically be: ignoring that we have no idea how we fit a theoretically infinite number of fighters into a finite area, the wizard has no option but to stay and fight until they run out of spells; that's not how wizards roll.

Realistically, the way to win a "fight" like this is to win initiative: whoever wins initiative can Teleport Through Time, stop anybody else from being able to Teleport Through Time, and then tracking down every person they would've faced in that "fight" and killing them as a baby (note: this method requires some means of becoming immune to death by aging, which is easy enough).

You're right offcourse. If left to their own devices, a wizard would win. Each and every time, all day long, for eternity. That's what wizards do. They win.

That's not an interesting thought experiment though, as we all already know this. Also: how would a fighter get to level 20? It's because he doesn't opperate solo. He has friends. Powerfull friends (some of which might be lvl20 wizards). Or he would have died 15 levels ago. And this of course goes for the wizard as well.
To make is a fun thought experiment we have nerfed the wizard (Far more than the fighter) to make it a battle on the fighters terms, or at least in a way I imagine the designers of this game once thought the fighter would stand his ground.

My arguments so far therefore are based on the premise the wizard does not leave the 'here and now' so no time travel either. And the fight is in some sort of arena(Above ground, earth like conditions, gravity present, etc), meaning there is a finite space in which to opperate, if only because fleeing is not possible otherwise. Also: Destroying the universe, or the relevant plane of existence is a no-no because that counts as leaving said plain. A form of fleeing.

Also: The battlefield should be sufficently large, so that no 1-shot can clear it. Because that would transform the chalenge into a: Who wins initiative and that's not fun either. So I'm assuming an 'arena' several miles wide and high. where both sides start some distance appart. (And thus a finite amount of preperation time is available. I don't think it matters much how much time, but lets assume 10 rounds)

It was stated that the wizard will never lose, and under the conditions above, I'm arguing against it. This is based on the following:
Any amount of 'invunerable' based on spells without offense won't help the wizard, as team fighter can simply wait out the duration of the spells. So: the wizard has to use offense, and burn spells doing it. (Either because reserve feats don't give enough damage per round to kill all oncoming fighters, or because he combines the reserve feats with other offensive spells and/or invunerability/protection spells)
Using this method, the Wizard will run out of spells/contingencies/wands eventually, and thus a finite number of fighters will do. (not a small amount, mind you, but finite) this number is defined by how many the wizard can kill before running out of spells (As he WILL run out). Therefore the question reduces itself to: How many fighters can a wizard kill per spell (Or per combination of spells). So far: Oldtrees' suggestion scores pretty high on the 'deaths per spell' ratio.

As for the fighters tactics: they just need to make the wizard burn through spells quicker, so as to reduce his killing capacity. For instance:
A large number of well-spred out Raptoran fighters, carrying an 'absorbing shield' and an activated AMF item. With bows and an assortisement of arrows and some sort of melee weapon Lets put some energy-bows in the mix too. (protective gear to taste might also help to reduce the number of fighters needed, but let's do without first). The mundane weaponry is used primarily to disperse summons etc. and to form enough of a threat to force the wizard to use some assortisment of spells (wind wall, force cage, etc). The trick will be to try and get the wizard inside an AMF produced by a fighter (So not shaped to suit the wizards' needs), then immobize to taste. Preventing this should cost the wizard a good number of spells. At which point the fighters retreat, surviving, killing the wizards summons and in some cases: dying until the protection wears of. Then rinse and repeat.

Now we need to figure out: How many spells will the wizard waste on the above. And how many fighter will get killed in 1 cycle.

[Flickerdart]

Here's a thought - while the wizard is murdering all these fighters, he is gaining XP. Since the challenge is "level 20 wizard" he can never become level 21, but he can craft magic items (using a dedicated wright) or just wish for some to burn off extra XP. Are there any items that would be useful when periodically refreshed?

[eggynack]

It was stated that the wizard will never lose, and under the conditions above, I'm arguing against it. This is based on the following:
Any amount of 'invunerable' based on spells without offense won't help the wizard, as team fighter can simply wait out the duration of the spells. So: the wizard has to use offense, and burn spells doing it. (Either because reserve feats don't give enough damage per round to kill all oncoming fighters, or because he combines the reserve feats with other offensive spells and/or invunerability/protection spells)
Using this method, the Wizard will run out of spells/contingencies/wands eventually, and thus a finite number of fighters will do. (not a small amount, mind you, but finite) this number is defined by how many the wizard can kill before running out of spells (As he WILL run out). Therefore the question reduces itself to: How many fighters can a wizard kill per spell (Or per combination of spells). So far: Oldtrees' suggestion scores pretty high on the 'deaths per spell' ratio.

You're just completely ignoring the actual arguments being made against this position. Hide life is a form of invulnerability that doesn't rely on duration at all. Thus, as your every claim is predicated on the non-existence of such a thing, they are all rendered invalid.

[Andezzar]

Here's a thought - while the wizard is murdering all these fighters, he is gaining XP. Since the challenge is "level 20 wizard" he can never become level 21, but he can craft magic items (using a dedicated wright) or just wish for some to burn off extra XP. Are there any items that would be useful when periodically refreshed?Unfortunately not. You only gain XP after the encounter is overcome. The challenge is an infinite number of level 20 fighters. So the wizard will not gain any XP until the last one is defeated. It is the same for the fighters. They will only gain XP after the wizard is defeated. On top of that their party level is infinite and thus they would not gain XP anyways, even if they succeeded.

[OldTrees1]

You're just completely ignoring the actual arguments being made against this position. Hide life is a form of invulnerability that doesn't rely on duration at all. Thus, as your every claim is predicated on the non-existence of such a thing, they are all rendered invalid.

Actually Twurps was arguing with more parts than he needed. The Fighters win, as per the OP, when the Wizard is unable to continue fighting. Thus the Fighters do not need to engage the Wizard's defenses at all. Thus no amount of defenses on the Wizard's part are sufficient to make this an infinite contest rather than a finite one.

So the question becomes:
1) Is there a sufficient(one that can overcome the defenses of the Fighters) offense that does not expend resources that also does not fall into the infinite loop ban? (I'll assume the answer is no)

2) What is the most efficient use of the Wizard's resources that does not fall into the infinite loop ban?
I submitted 288000d4+288000 Medium Elementals (each with a duration of 2 minutes) per 9th level spell as an example.

[AvatarVecna]

So...you're saying if a wizard is trapped in a finite space and a finite time with theoretically infinite fighters, the wizard will, eventually, lose, unless he utilizes super-high-op TO tricks that make the challenge "invalid". Okay, I can accept that. But a several mile wide arena? There's tons of tricks for targeting that whole area (although it requires metamagic abuse):

-Locate City Bomb
-Fimbulwinter Wightpocalypse
-Apocalypse From The Sky

Pick your nuke-button.

[eggynack]

Actually Twurps was arguing with more parts than he needed. The Fighters win, as per the OP, when the Wizard is unable to continue fighting. Thus the Fighters do not need to engage the Wizard's defenses at all. Thus no amount of defenses on the Wizard's part are sufficient to make this an infinite contest rather than a finite one.
I don't think the wizard is ever unable to continue fighting. I mean, there might be some theoretical exhaustion point, based on sleep or food, but I'm pretty sure there are relatively simple ways around that issue. Moreover, considering the post in its entirety, it is considered a loss by the wizard if he flees, because it is considered a challenge too great for him. By the same token, if the fighters flee, then it should logically be considered a challenge too great for the fighters, and thus a loss for them.

Edit: Warforged seems like a logical method to start with, though I think necropolitan could also work.

[TheCrowing1432]

Two Words

Sudden Maximize.

Timestop

GG

[OldTrees1]

So...you're saying if a wizard is trapped in a finite space and a finite time with theoretically infinite fighters, the wizard will, eventually, lose, unless he utilizes super-high-op TO tricks that make the challenge "invalid". Okay, I can accept that. But a several mile wide arena? There's tons of tricks for targeting that whole area (although it requires metamagic abuse):

-Locate City Bomb
-Fimbulwinter Wightpocalypse
-Apocalypse From The Sky

Pick your nuke-button.

Good answers.
-Locate City Bomb
No sure about this one since I am convinced that the shortest path out of a 2D area is in the 3rd dimension.

-Fell Drain Fimbulwinter
Fighter 20s have 20HD. 1 negative level per 8th-9th level spell would require many castings to kill the desired 20 mile radius. Still, I think this is the new best tool.

-Apocalypse From The Sky
Don't you need to be vulnerable to ability damage to cast this spell? If you are vulnerable to ability damage, wouldn't the corruption cost eat through your resources pretty fast for the 200 mile radius fireball you get per casting? Furthermore, I would expect 20th level Fighters to be able to complete recover from 1 of these per day(it does have a 1 day casting time).


I don't think the wizard is ever unable to continue fighting. I mean, there might be some theoretical exhaustion point, based on sleep or food, but I'm pretty sure there are relatively simple ways around that issue. Moreover, considering the post in its entirety, it is considered a loss by the wizard if he flees, because it is considered a challenge too great for him. By the same token, if the fighters flee, then it should logically be considered a challenge too great for the fighters, and thus a loss for them.

Edit: Warforged seems like a logical method to start with, though I think necropolitan could also work.

Yes I would assume the Wizard can operate without fatigue. But when the wizard can't make any progress with their remaining options (too low of a DPR) then I would not count them as able to continue fighting.

Also the victory conditions were already set in the opening post. (Although I agree a fighter fleeing counts as a point for the Wizard)

[TheCrowing1432]

You could set up some nifty combinations with Twin Spell/Repeat Spell and Chain Lighting/Other Similar Spells.

Of course thats just small fry thinking.

Evocation spells are probably not the best way to handle this.

You could always Gate in something to start eating the fighters.

[Flickerdart]

Oh! I have an idea.

What do our hordes of fighters do against 3 years of Fell Drain Fimbulwinter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9892.0)?

I mean, aside from buying items of resistance vs cold and becoming immune to negative energy and level drain, but that doesn't stop the winds that are hampering ranged attacks, and uses up resources they could have spent on other things.

[eggynack]

Yes I would assume the Wizard can operate without fatigue. But when the wizard can't make any progress with their remaining options (too low of a DPR) then I would not count them as able to continue fighting.

Also the victory conditions were already set in the opening post. (Although I agree a fighter fleeing counts as a point for the Wizard)
He can make progress, unless the fighters manage to just be where he isn't. It's just really slow progress. As long as the wizard still has crossbow bolts to launch, or reserve feats to use, the fight is still ongoing. Continual fighting is a necessary thing, I suppose, but there's no lower bar on how effective that continual fighting must be.

[AvatarVecna]

Wizards have access to enough high-op borderline-TO tricks that the number of fighters they're facing at once is inconsequential, since infinite spells, infinite feats, infinite gold, infinite XP, infinite minions, infinite time, and infinite contingencies are possible.

However, because the fighters are not specified in any example, there's always going to be a fighter build that can survive through any particular wizard trick. But is there a fighter that can survive through every particular wizard trick? Is there a Fighter 20 build that has a counter for anything a Wizard 20 can throw at them? If not, because of all of the infinites available to the wizard via magic abuse, the fighters will eventually lose.

The only other thing I'll mention is the difference between an infinite number of fighters and an unspecified-yet-finite number of fighters: a literally infinite number of anything can't be taken down by a finite resource (even the "infinites" the wizard has are only "arbitrarily high but still finite numbers).

[TheCrowing1432]

Oh! I have an idea.

What do our hordes of fighters do against 3 years of Fell Drain Fimbulwinter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9892.0)?

I mean, aside from buying items of resistance vs cold and becoming immune to negative energy and level drain, but that doesn't stop the winds that are hampering ranged attacks, and uses up resources they could have spent on other things.

not to mention the 10 feet of snow that creates difficult/impossible terrain, and the winds hamper flying.

[TheCrowing1432]

Wizards have access to enough high-op borderline-TO tricks that the number of fighters they're facing at once is inconsequential, since infinite spells, infinite feats, infinite gold, infinite XP, infinite minions, infinite time, and infinite contingencies are possible.

However, because the fighters are not specified in any example, there's always going to be a fighter build that can survive through any particular wizard trick. But is there a fighter that can survive through every particular wizard trick? Is there a Fighter 20 build that has a counter for anything a Wizard 20 can throw at them? If not, because of all of the infinites available to the wizard via magic abuse, the fighters will eventually lose.

The only other thing I'll mention is the difference between an infinite number of fighters and an unspecified-yet-finite number of fighters: a literally infinite number of anything can't be taken down by a finite resource (even the "infinites" the wizard has are only "arbitrarily high but still finite numbers).

The battle will pretty much go like this.

The wizard does some trick.
Half the fighters die because they werent prepaired, the other half live because they made the save, or were prepaired with a magic item to negate that trick in some way.
Wizard does a new trick, half again the fighters die, and half again some survive.
Repeat until the wizard runs out of spells, or the fighters all die.

[atemu1234]

The battle will pretty much go like this.

The wizard does some trick.
Half the fighters die because they werent prepaired, the other half live because they made the save, or were prepaired with a magic item to negate that trick in some way.
Wizard does a new trick, half again the fighters die, and half again some survive.
Repeat until the wizard runs out of spells, or the fighters all die.

-Trick that cannot be saved against or trick that cannot be stopped by magical effects-.

This is the only response.

[OldTrees1]

Oh! I have an idea.

What do our hordes of fighters do against 3 years of Fell Drain Fimbulwinter (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9892.0)?

I mean, aside from buying items of resistance vs cold and becoming immune to negative energy and level drain, but that doesn't stop the winds that are hampering ranged attacks, and uses up resources they could have spent on other things.

Wait, why would it be 16 damage (and 1 negative level) per round instead of 16 damage (and 1 negative level) period? (Although Piercing Cold instead of Lord of Uttercold would avoid the energy immunity issue)


He can make progress, unless the fighters manage to just be where he isn't. It's just really slow progress. As long as the wizard still has crossbow bolts to launch, or reserve feats to use, the fight is still ongoing. Continual fighting is a necessary thing, I suppose, but there's no lower bar on how effective that continual fighting must be.

If the wizard can't deal damage faster than the targets recover, then the wizard is not making progress. It does not take much investment to make crossbow bolts insufficient. It takes a little investment to make a 9th level reserve feat insufficient but it is still reasonable to assume given enough teamwork.

[eggynack]

If the wizard can't deal damage faster than the targets recover, then the wizard is not making progress. It does not take much investment to make crossbow bolts insufficient. It takes a little investment to make a 9th level reserve feat insufficient but it is still reasonable to assume given enough teamwork.
At that point, I suppose the question is how resilient the fighters can become, and how much optimization effort the wizard will need to put in in order to overcome that resilience. It might be that the wizard's best solution is just becoming an archery build of some kind. It's worth note, however, that the specific thing the fighters need to resist isn't average strength archery or reserve feat use, but constantly critting archery or max damage reserve feat use. After all, over an infinite stretch of time, the wizard is infinitely likely to pick up a sequence of perfect rolls of arbitrary length. Even if the wizard is only making progress during those periods, that still represents progress.

[TheCrowing1432]

Fighters have no class features.

All they have are fighter bonus feats, which most of them quite honestly are basically just bonuses to smacking things with their weapons.

Sure you can have mounted fighters, but that just gives the wizards more targets to fry. Horses and ordinary animals would be killed almost immedately.

So it really comes down to Magic Items, Magic Items the wizard himself can use, and can augment with his spells.

Magic items do way more for wizards then for fighters, its that simple.

[Flickerdart]

Fighters have no class features.

All they have are fighter bonus feats, which most of them quite honestly are basically just bonuses to smacking things with their weapons.

Sure you can have mounted fighters, but that just gives the wizards more targets to fry. Horses and ordinary animals would be killed almost immedately.

So it really comes down to Magic Items, Magic Items the wizard himself can use, and can augment with his spells.

Magic items do way more for wizards then for fighters, its that simple.
This is true for a finite and reasonable quantity of fighters. This thread has been about infinite fighters for a while now.

[TheCrowing1432]

This is true for a finite and reasonable quantity of fighters. This thread has been about infinite fighters for a while now.

then, the fighters will win. Because eventually the wizard will run out of spells. And use...crossbow bolts? Even with an infinite quiver, fighters have more then enough ac/health to tank through the measly 1d8 a crossbow does.

[eggynack]

then, the fighters will win. Because eventually the wizard will run out of spells. And use...crossbow bolts? Even with an infinite quiver, fighters have more then enough ac/health to tank through the measly 1d8 a crossbow does.
No, AC and health aren't enough, because the wizard has infinite time to work with, and will thus run through all of the AC and health in the multiverse eventually. The same goes for miss chance, incidentally, and any amount of DR less than the maximum damage on a critical hit. Infinity is a cool thing like that. There are probably defenses that are more difficult to get around, but I'm not sure that they'd be sufficient to overcome the inevitability wizard.

[TheCrowing1432]

No, AC and health aren't enough, because the wizard has infinite time to work with, and will thus run through all of the AC and health in the multiverse eventually. The same goes for miss chance, incidentally, and any amount of DR less than the maximum damage on a critical hit. Infinity is a cool thing like that. There are probably defenses that are more difficult to get around, but I'm not sure that they'd be sufficient to overcome the inevitability wizard.

But there are ways to be outright immune to crossbow bolts. Wind Wall/Arrow Catching/Arrow Deflection. With the wizard out of spells, the fighters can just swarm him and kill him.

[eggynack]

But there are ways to be outright immune to crossbow bolts. Wind Wall/Arrow Catching/Arrow Deflection. With the wizard out of spells, the fighters can just swarm him and kill him.
The wizard can't be killed, and all of those defenses have big glaring weaknesses. In particular, wind wall has a duration, and has a limit to how many fighters it can surround if used by only one fighter, so it won't last for infinity. Deflect arrows and snatch arrows work on only one attack a round, so if the wizard can use more than one attack a round, and getting him to that point is trivial, then the defense is overcome.

[Snowbluff]

Not to mention Reserve Feats and repeatable attack spells as alternative. Those might be harder for a fighter to work against. Of course, if we're assuming straight wizard persisting something like that spell that shoots lightning from your eyes might be hard.

[eggynack]

Not to mention Reserve Feats and repeatable attack spells as alternative. Those might be harder for a fighter to work against. Of course, if we're assuming straight wizard persisting something like that spell that shoots lightning from your eyes might be hard.
I dunno if it'd be advisable anyway. Sure, considering things along the axis of mass fighter murder, it's reasonably efficient, but when considering a nigh infinite quantity of fighter murder, it's rather a drop in the bucket. Really, any resource that doesn't just last forever is probably not worth it in this strategy. Eternal wands might be an interesting thing to make use of, on that note.

[Snowbluff]

I dunno if it'd be advisable anyway. Sure, considering things along the axis of mass fighter murder, it's reasonably efficient, but when considering a nigh infinite quantity of fighter murder, it's rather a drop in the bucket. Really, any resource that doesn't just last forever is probably not worth it in this strategy. Eternal wands might be an interesting thing to make use of, on that note.
So what would you do to get rid of a lot of fighters. My personal solution is more obnoxious Simulacra. :smalltongue:

[eggynack]

So what would you do to get rid of a lot of fighters. My personal solution is more obnoxious Simulacra. :smalltongue:
My current plan is still just halfway optimized archery, given the edge of an arbitrary number of sequential max damage criticals. It's possible that some defense exists against it, but there's probably little that can't be overcome with the endless wasting away that is time. There might also be a weird subplan of using sundering to slowly attrition away the wealth of a particular fighter, thus breaking through their defenses before killing them.

[Bob of Mage]

Just as an example Warforged can get DR to make them crowbolt proof with four feats or so. All the Fighters won't need it, just one would be enough after the Wizard runs out of spells.

I would also point out that dying for the Fighters wouldn't be a great cost since 99% of the time they can just pay to be raised. This opens up a number of options that a sane people would not use. For a (somewhat crazy) example, a Fighter could wish to move a Sphere of Annihilation into the center of the sun. It goes nova and the Fighter, Wizard, and most of the solar system are destoried. A second Fighter (or even just some guy the first Fighter payed) is on another plane and raises the first. There I just killed a single Wizard with two Fighters at the cost of a Wish and a solar system.

[Flickerdart]

I would also point out that dying for the Fighters wouldn't be a great cost since 99% of the time they can just pay to be raised.
By whom? If we're involving other characters here, the wizard can pay to be raised too...and he has a much better source of revenue, since he can use minions to loot fallen fighters, teleport out to sell the loot, and then give the money to clerics for resurrections.

[eggynack]

Just as an example Warforged can get DR to make them crowbolt proof with four feats or so. All the Fighters won't need it, just one would be enough after the Wizard runs out of spells.

How much DR are they getting, and of what variety? The former is relevant because the wizard can very possibly up the damage in a number of ways, and the latter is relevant because bypassing the DR completely is a decent plan.

[Snowbluff]

I don't think the star would go nova. The net gravity would just accelerate the star's mass into the sphere... annihilating it.

My current plan is still just halfway optimized archery, given the edge of an arbitrary number of sequential max damage criticals. It's possible that some defense exists against it, but there's probably little that can't be overcome with the endless wasting away that is time. There might also be a weird subplan of using sundering to slowly attrition away the wealth of a particular fighter, thus breaking through their defenses before killing them.

I'm assuming your name is Hank or something in order to avoid ammunition issues?

[eggynack]

I'm assuming your name is Hank or something in order to avoid ammunition issues?
That does sound like a good plan, yes, and would probably avoid some other issues as well.

[Karl Aegis]

Just as an example Warforged can get DR to make them crowbolt proof with four feats or so. All the Fighters won't need it, just one would be enough after the Wizard runs out of spells.

I would also point out that dying for the Fighters wouldn't be a great cost since 99% of the time they can just pay to be raised. This opens up a number of options that a sane people would not use. For a (somewhat crazy) example, a Fighter could wish to move a Sphere of Annihilation into the center of the sun. It goes nova and the Fighter, Wizard, and most of the solar system destoried. Second Fighter (or even just some guy the first Fighter payed) is on another plane and raises the first. There I just killed a single Wizard with two Fighters at the cost of a Wish and a solar system.

Does a Sphere of Annihilation even have a price? Can't the wizard just start chucking these things around like confetti? He could even Teleport through Time to before the fighters got theirs and steal it from them.

[Wings of Peace]

This may have been asked before, but, how much optimization is allowed on the Wizard's end? Because on the high-end spectrum the Wizard could dip Ardent and then take Mind Mage to give himself the ability to replenish his own spells in a matter of rounds instead of hours. Even without multiclassing or prestiging the Wizard has choices like explosive spell shennanigans, mental pinnacle + power point storage abuse, Dweomer of Transferrance (for blocking some of the more direct WBLomancy effects), and out of Dragon Magazine 315 there's Defiler Magic which lets you be Wizard Jesus in exchange for being willing to be hated by anyone who can sense your absurdly high corruption. It seems like the only way for the fighters to win is for anyone designing the Wizard to build with one hand tied behind their back so to speak.

Edit: Spell check failed me.

[Bob of Mage]

I don't think the star would go nova. The net gravity would just accelerate the star's mass into the sphere... annihilating it.

However at some point there would not be enough mass to hold the star's energy and mass in. At that point the star would go nova.

[Twurps]

I dunno if it'd be advisable anyway. Sure, considering things along the axis of mass fighter murder, it's reasonably efficient, but when considering a nigh infinite quantity of fighter murder, it's rather a drop in the bucket. Really, any resource that doesn't just last forever is probably not worth it in this strategy. Eternal wands might be an interesting thing to make use of, on that note.

Now you're talking. Hide life is eternal, so the wizard can survive for eternity as we've established long ago. (Barring any TO fighter tricks I'm not aware of?) That doesn't keep him in the fight though, as he can still be tied down or something equally mundane. So for a wizard to win, he needs an offence fierce enough to keep waves of AMF fighters at bay, because once trapped in an AMF (because an AMF fighter is next to him), the wizard runs out of tricks fast. (Again barring TO tricks I don't know about, feel welcome to enlighten me) reserve feats give 'eternal' offence, but I don't think it would be powerfull enough to stop a decent wave of optimized fighters. could eternal wands provide this?

Counterpoint would of course be that the fighters have eternal wands as well. I'm sure the wizard can make better use of it, but he has the action economy stacked against him.

With regards to Fimbulwinter: Can you fell drain that? It needs to do damage in order te be 'fell drained'.

Also: No teleporting out to sell (Fleeing), no traveling in time (Fleeing). No destroying the arena (I count that as fleeing by the party doing the destructing) and lets count resurrection out als wel. (For the Wizard, as it means he had help (not allowed) and by the fighters because why not just bring a new fighter and let the dead one count against the wizards kill count.

[OldTrees1]

This may have been asked before, but, how much optimization is allowed on the Wizard's end? Because on the high-end spectrum the Wizard could dip Ardent and then take Mind Mage to give himself the ability to replenish his own spells in a matter of rounds instead of hours.

Fails for 2 reasons:
1) The wizard loses if they regain spells
2) Infinite loops are prohibited

[Flickerdart]

With regards to Fimbulwinter: Can you fell drain that? It needs to do damage in order te be 'fell drained'.
The linked thread describes the necessary components that make the spell last for a long time and have an improved effect, including the damage.

[Twurps]

Fails for 2 reasons:
1) The wizard loses if they regain spells
2) Infinite loops are prohibited

Also: no dipping. (To prevent the fighters from dipping 19 levels of wizard)

[Wings of Peace]

Fails for 2 reasons:
1) The wizard loses if they regain spells
2) Infinite loops are prohibited

Infinite loops makes sense (and the no dipping mentioned in a later post) but why is there a blanket ban on the Wizard regaining his spells? Even without looping it infinitely abusing Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer to increase casting potential just plain makes sense for the Wiz. Though, I guess that's probably the point, it's a little too effective when optimized around.

[Twurps]

The linked thread describes the necessary components that make the spell last for a long time and have an improved effect, including the damage.

Sorry, missed that. I don't think fimbulwinter has targets, so flash frost spell has no targets to deal extra damage to. To prevent a RAW discussion on that front though. Lets say it works. Then this combo gives the wizard an offensive power FAR exeeding the previous best option of gating something like a solar. The trick in the link is done by a multiclassed character, so a single wizard might have to tone it down a little, but not much. Of course immunity to this spell's effect is possible, but assuming the fighters do not know beforehand what tricks the wizard is going to pull, let's say their number is relatively slim.

Taking into account the number of feats this takes however: Would the wizard have an equally good, but very different trick for the surviving/immune fighters?

Also: This is a level 8 spell, so number of castings is limited. The offensive power of the wizard has been lenghtened substantially though. From some 20 days, to many weeks per spell.

Edit: spelling

[Snowbluff]

However at some point there would not be enough mass to hold the star's energy and mass in. At that point the star would go nova.
I'd like to see the math on that. In the meantime, your solution demonstrates a problem with the premise.

[Flickerdart]

Also: This is a level 8 spell, so number of castings is limited. The offensive power of the wizard has been lenghtened substantially though. From some 20 days, to many weeks per spell.
It's not great for offensive power - it's trivial to become immune to the damage effects. It'll chew up a few fighters, but because we're assuming infinities, there will also be infinite fighters that bought protection vs negative energy, energy drain, and cold damage. Plain ol' fast healing will also take care of it in sufficient amounts. What it is great for is limiting visibility and mobility of the enemy - if the wizard hides within mounds of snow to cast a spell with a long casting time, he's bought himself a bunch of rounds.

[Twurps]

It's not great for offensive power - it's trivial to become immune to the damage effects. It'll chew up a few fighters, but because we're assuming infinities, there will also be infinite fighters that bought protection vs negative energy, energy drain, and cold damage. Plain ol' fast healing will also take care of it in sufficient amounts. What it is great for is limiting visibility and mobility of the enemy - if the wizard hides within mounds of snow to cast a spell with a long casting time, he's bought himself a bunch of rounds.

No infinite fighters. Infinite by their very definition means it never ends, so can't be beaten. Boring.
Very defenitely finite. Large, but finite. I have yet to see an offensive spell that would kill more than maybe 100 fighters (exeption below). (Assuming about 50 approach the wizard at once forcing him to cast spells while others stay out of range.) Casting a serie of protective spells and then go hunt down fighters with reserve feat damage isn't likely to get more of them without at least one form of protection running out.

So: number of higher level spells (6+)x100
number of lower level spells x 10? maybe 20?
Special mention for a well optimized trick like the fimbulwinter one. Number of fimbulwinter spells x 300
nowwhere near infinite by any means, even if I'm off by a factor of 10 to 100.

[eggynack]

You can't really do strictly infinite anything, apart from a few exceptions, but you can do the next best thing. For any quantity of fighters that exists, the wizard can kill that many of them.

[OldTrees1]

Infinite loops makes sense (and the no dipping mentioned in a later post) but why is there a blanket ban on the Wizard regaining his spells? Even without looping it infinitely abusing Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer to increase casting potential just plain makes sense for the Wiz. Though, I guess that's probably the point, it's a little too effective when optimized around.

I exaggerated that part. The specific ban is on resting to regain spells. However I do not know of a way to regain spells that is both useful and not simply the first iteration of an infinite loop.

[eggynack]

As a note on regaining spells, it seems likely that the wizard should pack an eternal wand of magic missile. That should provide a source of damage over time that's just about impossible for the fighters to perfectly prevent. The only real danger is that the fighters will get it away from him, which seems like a potential flaw with long term fighter murder plans.

[Karl Aegis]

Arcane Thesis: Invisible (-1), Cooperative (-1), Sanctum (-2), Searing Spell (+0), Easy Metamagic: Maximize, Maximized (+1), Easy Metamagic: Quicken, Quickened (+2) Orb of Fire is a valid spell for a third level wand.

Arcane Thesis, Enlarged, Invisible, Sanctum, Cooperative, Quickened, Chain, Fell Drain Magic Missile wand is a cheap wand.

Arcane Thesis: Energy Admixture (all types), Easy Meta, Invisible, Co-operative, Energy Substitution (all of them, Fire last), Searing Spell, Selective (him), Maximized, Twinned, Widened, Quickened, Fireball that he has stored in a glove of the master strategist and hits everyone within an 80 foot radius of him for 900 damage.

I'm just using Google to find wands that Tippy has mentioned before. Wizards can probably afford plenty of them, but so can the Fighters.

[eggynack]

Two key questions. First, can you use a metamagic'd spell in an eternal wand? Second, from the perspective of a wizard with infinite time, are any of those options actually significantly better than just magic missile?

[Deophaun]

If we're going 0 WBL, this is insanely easy.

The wizard picks "All of them" for his challenge. He also take arcane disciple for the creation domain. He then sequesters himself somewhere and casts create food and water once a day.

99% of the fighters starve to death.

Then the wizard engages.

[Snowbluff]

If we're going 0 WBL, this is insanely easy.

The wizard picks "All of them" for his challenge. He also take arcane disciple for the creation domain. He then sequesters himself somewhere and casts create food and water once a day.

99% of the fighters starve to death.

Then the wizard engages.

When the arbiter asks "Doesn't that count as fleeing?" respond with "I'm merely extending the range in space and time at which I am engaging them.

[OldTrees1]

"I'm merely extending the range in space and time at which I am engaging them.

That is better than the old "We're not retreating, we're just advancing in a different direction".

[Flickerdart]

As a note on regaining spells, it seems likely that the wizard should pack an eternal wand of magic missile. That should provide a source of damage over time that's just about impossible for the fighters to perfectly prevent. The only real danger is that the fighters will get it away from him, which seems like a potential flaw with long term fighter murder plans.
A 1500gp Brooch of Shielding absorbs 101 points of magic missile damage. It would take a very long time for the wizard to punch through this with just an eternal wand.

[eggynack]

A 1500gp Brooch of Shielding absorbs 101 points of magic missile damage. It would take a very long time for the wizard to punch through this with just an eternal wand.
A very long time, yes, but not infinite time. Granted, the magic missile could be potentially irrelevant if archery kills the targets first, but this could be a better source of absolute inevitability. Basically, I think the archery, presumably using hank's energy bow, is my plan A, but if someone comes up with a countermeasure for that and no countermeasure for the wand, then the wand probably becomes the new plan.

[Snowbluff]

For the purpose of argument, let's make a standard, solid fighter without any particular specialization, and then construct a day's spell list for a wizard optimized for killing as many as possible.

That is better than the old "We're not retreating, we're just advancing in a different direction".

Thank you. I'd sig this, but mine is full of the Axiom. :smalltongue:

[ben-zayb]

Also: no dipping. (To prevent the fighters from dipping 19 levels of wizard)
Also: 3rd party material (Mind Mae)
It's technically not Time Travel or Planeshifting, but Free-Metamagic, Fast-Time Demiplane + Planar Bubble + Repeat/Maximized/Empowered Absorption + Bound Creatures with at Will SLAs should work.

[shaikujin]

How much optimization are we talking about?

Are self resetting spell traps/Wish traps fair game?
If so, WBL coupled with action economy will likely win, 2 fighters will be able to use most of the Wizard spell combos mentioned so far, and churn out twice as many gated 40 hd outsiders (or same number at half the time) etc.

Is the Wizard allowed to use spontanteous divination + versatile spell caster + domain Wizard to immediately get access to level 9 spells at level 1? If so Wizard wins at level 1.

[Flickerdart]

Is the Wizard allowed to use spontanteous divination + versatile spell caster + domain Wizard to immediately get access to level 9 spells at level 1? If so Wizard wins at level 1.
It's too bad that fight doesn't take place at level 1, or that comment would have been relevant.

[AvatarVecna]

I think that, if the Fighter is dependent on WBLmancy, it's not really a Fighter 20 that's beating a Wizard 20, but the many Wizards that made the items beating the Wizard 20. I don't think the Fighter should have no spell-casting items, but if the Fighter's only design goal is using money to pretend to be a wizard, it's not really in the spirit of the challenge.

[Twurps]

As a note on regaining spells, it seems likely that the wizard should pack an eternal wand of magic missile. That should provide a source of damage over time that's just about impossible for the fighters to perfectly prevent. The only real danger is that the fighters will get it away from him, which seems like a potential flaw with long term fighter murder plans.

In my basic fighter strategy, fighter approach under the effect of a AMF (lets say: waves of 50, approaching from different angles. No 'firebal formations'). So the wand would have to pierce that, or be of little use. Is there a wand that does that?

Same goes for the Archery tactics: Can a Wizard really shoot down 50 AMF fighters before they get to him, tie him down and start dismembering his eternal living body?

[Karl Aegis]

In my basic fighter strategy, fighter approach under the effect of a AMF (lets say: waves of 50, approaching from different angles. No 'firebal formations'). So the wand would have to pierce that, or be of little use. Is there a wand that does that?

Same goes for the Archery tactics: Can a Wizard really shoot down 50 AMF fighters before they get to him, tie him down and start dismembering his eternal living body?

How do the fighters get to a wizard when they are inside an Anti-magic Field? Not having access to supernatural or magical flight to actually get to a wizard really hampers build options and gets stopped entirely by an item with enough hardness to not be overcome by non-magical weapons and the Shrink Item spell.

50 fighters is also a trivial amount of fighters. Better to wait until there are at least 200 to use a wand charge on them.

[eggynack]

In my basic fighter strategy, fighter approach under the effect of a AMF (lets say: waves of 50, approaching from different angles. No 'firebal formations'). So the wand would have to pierce that, or be of little use. Is there a wand that does that?
Some, yeah. Lesser orb of X would manage it, and the AMF would presumably shut down any sort of energy resistance.


Same goes for the Archery tactics: Can a Wizard really shoot down 50 AMF fighters before they get to him, tie him down and start dismembering his eternal living body?

Probably, yeah. I mean, the wizard, not in an AMF, would presumably have access to better permanent flight modes than the fighters, trapped within the AMF. AMF's are a pretty big downside. Of course, there's also always the secondary plan of astral projection. Makes the possibility of dismemberment pretty irrelevant.

[dascarletm]

Some, yeah. Lesser orb of X would manage it, and the AMF would presumably shut down any sort of energy resistance.


Probably, yeah. I mean, the wizard, not in an AMF, would presumably have access to better permanent flight modes than the fighters, trapped within the AMF. AMF's are a pretty big downside. Of course, there's also always the secondary plan of astral projection. Makes the possibility of dismemberment pretty irrelevant.

If the orb can one-shot that wall of HP that is a level 20 fighter ~170 HP that's still 1 (or two if you also quicken one) a round. I also imagine that the fighters would consist of quite a few flying races.

Also, we should probably have some gith with silver swords to stop that pesky astral projection.

[Flickerdart]

Also, we should probably have some gith with silver swords to stop that pesky astral projection.
Githyanki have LA, so they cannot be 20th level fighters before epic. The sword also has a number of issues that prevent it from being an effective tool, namely that an astral cord only trails 10 feet behind a character (and getting within 10 feet of a wizard is a feat unto itself), and when the cord is struck, the target receives a save which he can willingly fail to return to his body unharmed.

Astral projection isn't even that useful here, though; Hide Life does a good enough job of making the wizard unkillable already.

[eggynack]

Hide Life does a good enough job of making the wizard unkillable already.
The only real issue with hide life that I can see is that it might make the wizard impossible to kill, but it might not make them impossible to defeat. You find some manner to trap the wizard eternally, and it seems fair to call that some measure of victory for the fighter army. Astral projection gets around that issue, I think.

[dascarletm]

Githyanki have LA, so they cannot be 20th level fighters before epic. The sword also has a number of issues that prevent it from being an effective tool, namely that an astral cord only trails 10 feet behind a character (and getting within 10 feet of a wizard is a feat unto itself), and when the cord is struck, the target receives a save which he can willingly fail to return to his body unharmed.
I guess I assumed LA buyoff or something. Either way, you don't need to be a githyanki to use one.

Getting within 10ft. might not be as hard as many keep saying when there is so many enemies.

I think going off plane/far away loses this challenge by default.


EDIT: eggy said it already. :smalltongue:

[Flickerdart]

The only real issue with hide life that I can see is that it might make the wizard impossible to kill, but it might not make them impossible to defeat. You find some manner to trap the wizard eternally, and it seems fair to call that some measure of victory for the fighter army. Astral projection gets around that issue, I think.
Interesting thought. However, by the terms of the challenge, wouldn't a wizard that's trapped lose regardless of whether or not he casts a Projection - because the Projection spawns on the Astral Plane, outside of the arena? A wizard who is not captive could be said to still be in the fight, so he fulfills the requirements until the clone can plane shift + teleport back in.

[eggynack]

Interesting thought. However, by the terms of the challenge, wouldn't a wizard that's trapped lose regardless of whether or not he casts a Projection - because the Projection spawns on the Astral Plane, outside of the arena? A wizard who is not captive could be said to still be in the fight, so he fulfills the requirements until the clone can plane shift + teleport back in.
Well, technically speaking, the wizard isn't teleporting to the astral plane. They just happen to always be on the astral plane, sending projection after projection at the fighter army.

[Snowbluff]

Well, technically speaking, the wizard isn't teleporting to the astral plane. They just happen to always be on the astral plane, sending projection after projection at the fighter army.

Couldn't you Sequester and Imprisonment your own body with a Contingent Freedom upon the ending of Astral Projection? X3 NINTH LEVEL SPELL COMBO!

[Flickerdart]

Couldn't you Sequester your own body with a Contingent Freedom upon the ending of Astral Projection? X3 NINTH LEVEL SPELL COMBO!
You could, but Sequester just makes it invisible. You have better uses for your nines.

[Snowbluff]

You could, but Sequester just makes it invisible. You have better uses for your nines.
Well, it would be nigh impossible for a regular fighter to find you without help. I've added Imprisonment for added agitation. :smalltongue:

[Twurps]

Probably, yeah. I mean, the wizard, not in an AMF, would presumably have access to better permanent flight modes than the fighters, trapped within the AMF. AMF's are a pretty big downside. Of course, there's also always the secondary plan of astral projection. Makes the possibility of dismemberment pretty irrelevant.

Raptorans are LA0, have (ex) flight of 40ft per round and would therefore only be in range of an orb for 2 rounds.
The wizard, living eternally with his 'hide life' spell in the meantime, being 'staggered' is restricted to a single move, or a single attack. Assuming a single attack, he can kill 2 fighters, before the rest reach him.

Bows of course have a longer range, but no lvl 20 fighter, even one with very low optimization, dies from 1 or even 2 attacks from a staggered, bow-shooting wizard. So yes: Once a wizard has to depend on 'hide life' for survival and 'non depleting' forms of offence, he is toast in a mere 2 to 4 rounds.

[eggynack]

Raptorans are LA0, have (ex) flight of 40ft per round and would therefore only be in range of an orb for 2 rounds.
The wizard, living eternally with his 'hide life' spell in the meantime, being 'staggered' is restricted to a single move, or a single attack. Assuming a single attack, he can kill 2 fighters, before the rest reach him.

Bows of course have a longer range, but no lvl 20 fighter, even one with very low optimization, dies from 1 or even 2 attacks from a staggered, bow-shooting wizard. So yes: Once a wizard has to depend on 'hide life' for survival and 'non depleting' forms of offence, he is toast in a mere 2 to 4 rounds.
The wizard doesn't really need more than a couple attacks each day, and it seems that'a what he's getting. As long as the total fighter HP is being consistently depleted, it doesn't really matter all that much how quickly that depletion is happening, or how long it takes to kill a single fighter. This is especially true if the wizard goes after items to some extent, as that would deplete an absolute resource. In any case, I think the plan involves astral projection at this point, which eliminates some of the problem with false life.

[dascarletm]

What book has the details on how easy/hard it is to cut the cord from astral projection?

[OldTrees1]

The wizard doesn't really need more than a couple attacks each day, and it seems that'a what he's getting. As long as the total fighter HP is being consistently depleted, it doesn't really matter all that much how quickly that depletion is happening, or how long it takes to kill a single fighter. This is especially true if the wizard goes after items to some extent, as that would deplete an absolute resource. In any case, I think the plan involves astral projection at this point, which eliminates some of the problem with false life.

Wait, remember that resting heals and that it is relatively easy to make a DC 15 check. So we can expect each fighter to heal 40hp/day before any kind of fast healing/regeneration/eternal wands of healing. Since any WBL based eternal offense will be outmatched by healing by a huge ratio, your strategy of using infinite time only works if you kill the fighter in one blow (to avoid readied actions to heal with eternal wands).

Sidenote: Also the burst speed of a Fighter that is part of the infinite army of Fighters is rather high as a result of using a small fraction of the infinite fraction of Fighters with White Raven Tactics.

[AvatarVecna]

Exactly how optimized a wizard are we talking about? Are we saying "Pun-Pun made infinite "Fighter 20"s and 1 "Wizard 20" and stuck them in a giant arena, or are we saying that infinite Fighters and 1 Wizard who worked their way to lvl 20 are put in an arena? Because if it's the second one, I'm pretty sure the Fighters can't win...assuming the wizard has been behaving optimally their entire career.

EDIT:

An Illumian Wizard takes "Wedded to History" (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/featbox.pl?feat=Wedded_to_History) at lvl 1. They intentionally contract Festering Anger.

Using various methods to gain infinite Wishes, they wish for scrolls of every wizard spell in existence, and copy those spells into their spellbook(s) somehow. Then, they spend week after week in the Otyugh Hole. Every time they take Con damage from Festering Anger, they use a Wish to duplicate Restoration, healing the damage. Every time they come out of the Otyugh Hole, they use two Wishes to DCS Iron Will into a feat of their choice, until they run out of feats they want. Among the feats they want are:

-All Metamagic feats
-Easy Metamagic for all metamagic feats
-Arcane Thesis for every spell
-Innate Spell for every viable combination of metamagic feats and spells

This gives the use of all spell/metamagic combos 3 times per day, with all metamagic costs lowered by 2. According to That Damn Site, there's roughly 2500 spells; assuming each one has "only" 10 possible metamagic variations, that's 75000 spells per day, which don't need to be chosen at the beginning of the day. With 24 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, 10 rounds in a minute, and up to 4 spells in a round (Choker+Quickened Spells), that's 57600 spells you can cast in a day. This doesn't take into account your own Str-based casting, which (after roughly 200,000 weeks in the Otyugh Hole) is roughly 400,000, giving essentially infinite X lvl spells per day, allowing you to prepare any number of spells of your choice.

You have infinite spells, infinite metamagic, -2 to all metamagic feats used on a spell, infinite free wishes, infinite time, and infinite fighters. As long as the wizard has some way to be impossible to capture kill (which, with infinite spells per day, infinite spell-like abilities per day, and infinite wishes, you better damn well have).

The best part: you never have to actually assign your spells at the beginning of the day, since you can use any spell/metamagic combo of your choice an essentially infinite number of times per day without preparation. Because the spell-like abilities are fueled by giving up a spell/day at that spell level, anybody who cures Festering Anger is going to ruin your plan...but even an infinite number of Fighters won't get anywhere close to curing you; even if they could, you'll probably have used your infinite wishes to create an item giving an infinite enhancement bonus to Strength.

Also, for good measure, the Wizard can use various Divinations to find out who invented the Teleport Through Time Spell, then find a way to kill them before they invent it, using TTT shenanigans to make sure they're the only one who can cast that spell.

What can the Fighters do about that?

[Twurps]

From the op: "Assume both the wizard and the fighters are optimized to a similar degree that a generic "reasonably lenient DM" would allow. No pun puns, no infinite loops, etc."

I won't speak for you, or for anybody else. But I will say that I'm very happy that my DM would laugh so hard he just might forget to throw his DMG at me.

[Flickerdart]

What can the Fighters do about that?
As the wizard creates infinity fighter corpses, their combined weight gradually compresses matter until the energy is sufficient to start a self-sustaining fusion reaction (about 200 trillion trillion fighter corpses). The wizard, unable to leave the arena without forfeiting the challenge, is trapped by the star's gravity and eventually undone.

[dascarletm]

What can the Fighters do about that?

They win by default since you broke the rules stated in the premise.:smallconfused:

[AvatarVecna]

As the wizard creates infinity fighter corpses, their combined weight gradually compresses matter until the energy is sufficient to start a self-sustaining fusion reaction (about 200 trillion trillion fighter corpses). The wizard, unable to leave the arena without forfeiting the challenge, is trapped by the star's gravity and eventually undone.

First point: I'm pretty sure there's tons of spells that can make one immune to the effects of gravitational pull (some sort of metamagic'd Reverse Gravity, I'm sure). Fly, Overland Flight, Limited Wish, Wish...I'm sure there's something.

Second point: there's plenty of spells that can dispose of the body in a way that it doesn't contribute to the gradually-forming corpse-star. If nothing else, Disintegrate will take care of the body.

Third point: if the Fighter's only hope of beating this wizard is a vague hope that the wizard will destroy so many of them so quickly, that the fighter's corpses form a star that the wizard can't escape from before the wizard can see the star forming and use spells to make themselves immune, I think the wizard has won.

[AvatarVecna]

They win by default since you broke the rules stated in the premise.:smallconfused:

Which rule did I break? Did I break the rules by assuming the characters didn't spring into being, already 20th level? Infinite wealth/XP/wish tricks? A properly optimized Wizard 20, with no restrictions but the RAW, can take on a literally infinite number of Fighters.

EDIT: Otherwise, this challenge is just an attempt to make Fighters look better than they are. If one side of a fight has infinite resources, and the other does not, the one with infinite resources wins.

[Twurps]

Third point: if the Fighter's only hope of beating this wizard is a vague hope that the wizard will destroy so many of them so quickly, that the fighter's corpses form a star that the wizard can't escape from before the wizard can see the star forming and use spells to make themselves immune, I think the wizard has won.

Very much so. Same category as 'dying of old age before any fighter has contributed anything usefull to the wizards demise'.

[AvatarVecna]

Very much so. Same category as 'dying of old age before any fighter has contributed anything useful to the wizards demise'.

That's what "Wedded to History" is for.

[Twurps]

Which rule did I break? Did I break the rules by assuming the characters didn't spring into being, already 20th level? Infinite wealth/XP/wish tricks? A properly optimized Wizard 20, with no restrictions but the RAW, can take on a literally infinite number of Fighters.

EDIT: Otherwise, this challenge is just an attempt to make Fighters look better than they are. If one side of a fight has infinite resources, and the other does not, the one with infinite resources wins.

Well, there was the: 'no infinites' in the OP (definitely broke that one), as wel as 'anything a lenient DM would allow' (I would argue you broke that one) the OP had quite a few more restrictions then just RAW actually.

Also: In what chalenge ever has an acceptible answer been: 'Use whatever trick to become the only one that knows spell X, Y, or Z.??
(And while I write this, I realize on this forum, there's a good chance somebody will point me to one :smalltongue: )
If that trick is allowed. The Wizard loses right away. Only because some other wizard has beaten him to the trick, and made sure HE was the only one being able to cast ANY spells at all.

[Karl Aegis]

Well, there was the: 'no infinites' in the OP (definitely broke that one), as wel as 'anything a lenient DM would allow' (I would argue you broke that one) the OP had quite a few more restrictions then just RAW actually.

Also: In what chalenge ever has an acceptible answer been: 'Use whatever trick to become the only one that knows spell X, Y, or Z.??
(And while I write this, I realize on this forum, there's a good chance somebody will point me to one :smalltongue: )
If that trick is allowed. The Wizard loses right away. Only because some other wizard has beaten him to the trick, and made sure HE was the only one being able to cast ANY spells at all.

You lose because you never existed? The basic premise of the challenge is that there is a wizard that exists. Unless somehow the wizard got non-existence immunities, which are hard to overcome, in theory.

[AvatarVecna]

I'll say it again: a fight between two groups where one has infinite resources and the other has finite resources is a fight where the side with infinite resources eventually wins, no matter how capable the other side is.

Also, in regards to the "fair, relatively average DM" thing: I doubt throwing infinite Fighters at a Wizard that isn't allowed to regain spells or use TO would seem particularly fair to them...unless, of course, their DMing style was similar to one of the more infamous members of this sub-forum.

[OldTrees1]

I'll say it again: a fight between two groups where one has infinite resources and the other has finite resources is a fight where the side with infinite resources eventually wins, no matter how capable the other side is.

Also, in regards to the "fair, relatively average DM" thing: I doubt throwing infinite Fighters at a Wizard that isn't allowed to regain spells or use TO would seem particularly fair to them...unless, of course, their DMing style was similar to one of the more infamous members of this sub-forum.

The challenge is how many Fighters can the Wizard take out without breaking the rules. The thread merely jumped to infinity because someone thought the wizard could take out an infinite number of Fighters. The rest of the thread went along with it since the Wizard has such a high defense.

Currently we have fimbulwinter nukes and eggynack's resource free tactics.

[eggynack]

The challenge is how many Fighters can the Wizard take out without breaking the rules. The thread merely jumped to infinity because someone thought the wizard could take out an infinite number of Fighters. The rest of the thread went along with it since the Wizard has such a high defense.

Indeed, infinity is just a stand in. Killing an actual infinity of fighters is either physically impossible, or only possible given some particular setup that makes it trivial (just exploding all of them somehow). The idea that a wizard can kill "infinite" fighters mostly just means that, whatever particular amount of fighters you name, the wizard will be able to kill that many, and indeed will be able to kill one more than that many. Thus, considering it from a different perspective, the set of fighter quantities this wizard is capable of killing is an infinite set.

Anyway, as an extra plan, that exploding them all thing might not be the worst idea. It was mentioned before the other way, with a fighter triggering annihilation somehow, and being raised in some fashion, but in actual fact the wizard would likely be better at both creating the annihilation, and surviving it. So, arbitrary thought, rockburst targeting the earth, which is being done with the wizard astral projecting from a demiplane. I dunno how much of the earth can be considered a stone object, but the answer is probably enough of it that the wizard can take out everything, and the wizard is probably more than capable of reaching the stone mass. If that's stupid for whatever reason, there are probably better ways to pull it off that I'm not thinking of.

[Jack_Simth]

Without some pretty extreme optimization, there is going to be some number of varied-build, varied-equipment 20th level fighters that can defeat (at least by the rules of the OP) any specific 20th level Wizard.

The OP's question amounts to "what's that number?"

However, there's no real method by which to derive a clear answer. There are simply too many variables. If the question was "How many of this specific fighter can this specific wizard slay without resting" or some such, then there might be a suitable method that could be used.

Barring that, though? Some of it depends on how much optimization is permitted on the Fighters' side, some of it depends on how much optimization is permitted on the Wizard's side, some of it depends on how lucky each side is, some of it depends on how crafty each side is (I recently noted that, in the DMG, there's a way for a skilled mundane to build Wishes - or any other spell, arcane or divine - directly via skill checks and wealth, no XP burn needed... and they're surprisingly cheap; free up to 2nd level spells, 100 gp market per spell level after that... and that's 'per usable spell effect', not 'per individual casting' - neigh at-will is cheaper than individual scrolls, and it's CORE folks. The skill check DC is something like 30 or 40, but that's not too hard at 20th - especially as it's a class skill for a fighter - and the skill check doesn't have to be during the battle, so taking ten is an option - pretty easy to go max ranks (23), masterwork tool (+2), Skill Focus (+3), and Int-14 (whether directly or via item) to get the +30 modifier needed to make the highest option of DC 40 by taking ten. Pathfinder inherited the problem, but improved the pricing).

So, I suppose, as vague and open-ended as the OP's question is, the equally vague answer is:
"A large, but finite, number"

[Flickerdart]

First point: I'm pretty sure there's tons of spells that can make one immune to the effects of gravitational pull (some sort of metamagic'd Reverse Gravity, I'm sure). Fly, Overland Flight, Limited Wish, Wish...I'm sure there's something.
Doesn't matter - the wizard isn't being pulled into the sun, the sun is expanding into the wizard. Leaving means forfeit.

And no, 30ft/round fly speed isn't going to be enough to escape a star.

[AvatarVecna]

Doesn't matter - the wizard isn't being pulled into the sun, the sun is expanding into the wizard. Leaving means forfeit.

And no, 30ft/round fly speed isn't going to be enough to escape a star.

Because Fire Resistance, Fire Immunity, Insubstantiability, Fast Healing, and/or Regeneration are so hard to come by.

Besides, leaving only means forfeiting if there's fighters left alive, which is only true if the number of fighters is literally infinite, rather than an arbitrarily, but as-of-yet undefined number.

Also, that still doesn't get around how the wizard would just destroy the bodies so that they don't do something like that.

[Flickerdart]

Because Fire Resistance, Fire Immunity, Insubstantiability, Fast Healing, and/or Regeneration are so hard to come by.
Gon' need a lot of fast healing to stave off nuclear fusion. Comparing it to fire is a little disingenuous.


Besides, leaving only means forfeiting if there's fighters left alive, which is only true if the number of fighters is literally infinite, rather than an arbitrarily, but as-of-yet undefined number.
200 trillion trillion and change.


Also, that still doesn't get around how the wizard would just destroy the bodies so that they don't do something like that.
Even Disintegrate leaves dust. It'll take more fighters, though.

[AvatarVecna]

Sigh...

Firstly, yes, I am comparing fire to fire damage. The stars in the sky can't burn a fire elemental to death, no matter how hot they are.

If we're going to bring physics into it...

Our arena is either...
--An infinite volume plane
--A finite volume plane

In the second, the infinite mass in a finite volume location ensures that everything within that isn't effectively, magically invulnerable by being squeezed together into a star (as you've described). Because the D&D world runs on Initiative, this either results in both sides getting sucked up (if gravity beats everyone on Init), or with the Wizard winning Init due to Contingent Celerity+Contingent Shapechange; Shapechangeis used to become invulnerable to gravitational forces and the incredible heat involved (such as, for instance, a ghost).

In the case of gravity winning and killing everybody, it's debatable whether the wizard dying at the same time all the fighters die is a victory for the wizard or the fighters, since neither is really responsible for what happened except by the fact of existing).

In the first situation, if the fighters as a whole are close enough together that their dead bodies would combine into a star, then they're close enough together that their living bodies would form into a star, and we have the same situation as above. If they don't start that close to each other, the wizard can just blow the dust away into the infinite void (whether by using Gust of Wind, an Explosive Spell, or something similar).

In either case, in the extremely unlikely event that the wizard can't stop the fighters from becoming a star, the wizard can survive it (unless gravity wins initiative).

[Flickerdart]

Sigh...

Firstly, yes, I am comparing fire to fire damage.
Fire is an oxidation reaction. Fusion is not. The sun is not fire.


The stars in the sky can't burn a fire elemental to death, no matter how hot they are.
Searing spell can burn a fire elemental to death. It is described as simply "Your fire spells are so hot that they can damage creatures that normally have resistance or immunity to fire." Are you proposing that the sun is cooler than a searing spell?

The hottest possible flame burns at about 6000K (though we know that fire elementals are not this hot, because they are orange and that only goes up to about 1000C). The sun is 15,700,000K.

[AvatarVecna]

Fire is an oxidation reaction. Fusion is not. The sun is not fire.


Searing spell can burn a fire elemental to death. It is described as simply "Your fire spells are so hot that they can damage creatures that normally have resistance or immunity to fire." Are you proposing that the sun is cooler than a searing spell?

The hottest possible flame burns at about 6000K (though we know that fire elementals are not this hot, because they are orange and that only goes up to about 1000C). The sun is 15,700,000K.

It may not be fire, but it's heat; when it's hot enough, you take fire damage, which is how the system represents it. Doesn't matter where the heat comes from.

Searing spell is magic; stars aren't magical things in D&D (at least, they aren't specified as magic), so there's no reason they should ignore the usual laws of reality. And I still don't see how the sun will harm a ghost.

[Flickerdart]

It may not be fire, but it's heat; when it's hot enough, you take fire damage, which is how the system represents it. Doesn't matter where the heat comes from.

Searing spell is magic; stars aren't magical things in D&D (at least, they aren't specified as magic), so there's no reason they should ignore the usual laws of reality.
Searing Spell describes exactly how it bypasses resistance, and it's just "moar hot than fire normally is." Even if you were correct in conflating two wildly different types of reactions that have energy outputs literally orders of magnitude different, it's still "moar hot than fire normally is" also.

[AvatarVecna]

Searing Spell describes exactly how it bypasses resistance, and it's just "moar hot than fire normally is." Even if you were correct in conflating two wildly different types of reactions that have energy outputs literally orders of magnitude different, it's still "moar hot than fire normally is" also.

Fair enough, I'll drop the point. And what do stars do against ghosts? I'm still waiting on the answer to that.

[Flickerdart]

Fair enough, I'll drop the point. And what do stars do against ghosts? I'm still waiting on the answer to that.
Earth's Sun is so effective against ghosts that there are none even 1 AU away. What do you think is going to happen at point blank range?

[AvatarVecna]

Earth's Sun is so effective against ghosts that there are none even 1 AU away. What do you think is going to happen at point blank range?

Ignoring that you're obviously not being serious, I'll point out that your logic only works if there were, at some point, ghosts in our world that were destroyed by our solar system's star, and that d&d stars made of dead fighters would have to be at least as potent as our own. If either of those isn't true, then ghosts live.

[Flickerdart]

Ignoring that you're obviously not being serious, I'll point out that your logic only works if there were, at some point, ghosts in our world that were destroyed by our solar system's star, and that d&d stars made of dead fighters would have to be at least as potent as our own. If either of those isn't true, then ghosts live.
The star will be as massive as our own with 200 trillion-squared fighters, but because a fighter is much larger than an atom, it would require more kinetic energy to fuse, resulting in higher temperature.

Since the Earth formed after the Sun, the ghosts were taken care of preemptively.

[AvatarVecna]

The star will be as massive as our own with 200 trillion-squared fighters, but because a fighter is much larger than an atom, it would require more kinetic energy to fuse, resulting in higher temperature.

Since the Earth formed after the Sun, the ghosts were taken care of preemptively.

Firstly, that means we have 4*(10^28) Fighters. Assuming they're wearing tons of armor and weapons, we can assume about 500 lbs per Fighter, giving total weight of 2*(10^31) lbs. Our RL sun weighs about 4*(10^30) lbs, which is about 1/5 what the Fighter Star weighs, assuming no mass is lost in the transition. Of course, Fighters with less gear could shorten the gap, but the numbers are close enough that the two stars are at least comparable.

Secondly, size doesn't always equate to heat: there's a dwarf star that's almost (but not quite) as hot as McDonald's coffee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CFBDSIR_1458%2B10), and another dwarf star that makes for good sweater weathe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WISEPA_J182831.08%2B265037.8)r.

Thirdly, you forget: there's a not-insignificant portion of the population that's not convinced of the popular opinion that ghosts don't exist.

[Garktz]

Does gating in a solar, asking him to use his miracle to "have my spells at the same state they were at the beggining of the day (replenish all spells via miracle, including the gate just used)" using again all spells until run out of them and gaing a solar again to do the same thing, count as infinite trick, thus, breaking the no infinite loop rule?

If not, then i think wizard would eventually lose, but, i think dmm cleric might win infinite number of warriors beating them at being a better warrior with spells on top....

Edit. I can extend on it when i get home to
a) use the computer instead of phone
b) check the books

[OldTrees1]

Does gating in a solar, asking him to use his miracle to "have my spells at the same state they were at the beggining of the day (replenish all spells via miracle, including the gate just used)" using again all spells until run out of them and gaing a solar again to do the same thing, count as infinite trick, thus, breaking the no infinite loop rule?

If not, then i think wizard would eventually lose, but, i think dmm cleric might win infinite number of warriors beating them at being a better warrior with spells on top....

Edit. I can extend on it when i get home to
a) use the computer instead of phone
b) check the books

Yes, using 1 9th level spell(Gate) to gain the same 9th level spell(Gate) counts as an infinite loop.

[Flickerdart]

Firstly, that means we have 4*(10^28) Fighters. Assuming they're wearing tons of armor and weapons, we can assume about 500 lbs per Fighter, giving total weight of 2*(10^31) lbs. Our RL sun weighs about 4*(10^30) lbs, which is about 1/5 what the Fighter Star weighs, assuming no mass is lost in the transition.
I was assuming a fighter of about 200lbs total, but I forgot how many weapons and stuff they could carry. So we can make do with much fewer fighters, then.

[eggynack]

Considering the endurance plan further, a ring of freedom of movement should make things such that holding the hide life'd wizard down permanently is impossible. I think it would turn damage into possibly the only win condition, which I suppose is the goal. The problem, then, is in dealing with AMF folk, because they'd shut off the ring, but I don't think those AMF folk could stop you if you had a flight speed significantly faster than theirs. Not sure what the flight method should be, however. In any case, if the wizard is pretty much free to deal their damage, I think they'd be able to deal enough to either kill a fighter a day, or take out enough life to overcome recovery methods. I think the former is the real goal here, and it would be taking place under the assumption of repeating max damage critical hits, as the requirement is only that you kill a fighter on some days.

[Twurps]

Flying fast enough to stay clear of the fighters would require some flight speed optimization, as hide life only gives partial actions. And without running out of spells at that. An item that gives permanent haste would be a good start, but I assume many a fighter would have that too. Are there any items based on Caster level, or something similar not easily duplicated by the fighters?

The other prerequisite for this strategy to work is that there is enough room to keep maneuvering. Let's assume that's the case though. if only because if not: The wizard would happily use 1 or 2 of his precious 'nines' to blast himself the space needed.

So: Can a wizard Fly faster than a raptoran with an item of haste, and maybe a few feats because fighters get loads, and flying fast is actually something a raptoran might put some effort in?

[Flickerdart]

So: Can a wizard Fly faster than a raptoran with an item of haste, and maybe a few feats because fighters get loads, and flying fast is actually something a raptoran might put some effort in?
It shouldn't be too difficult to permanently usurp a dragon's form, and they're hella fast.

[Twurps]

Just to get a benchmark number in:
A raptoran has 40ft fly speed. (s)he takes: Run, dragontouched (for improved speed) improved speed (+20ft fly speed) and air heritage(+30ft fly speed).

A 'running' raptoran can then fly (40+30+20)*5=450ft per round without using magic (And thus still able to activate his AMF when needed).

I've never tried to optimize the fly speed for a wizard though. Any suggestions there?
Also just realized: If the wizard employs this tactic before he's damaged to the point hide life kicks in. He has full round actions available, he would still need actions left to do damage in at least some of his rounds though.

[OldTrees1]

A Wizard, having finite speed, cannot be faster than a Raptorian supported by an infinite number of diverse fighters. Take a mere 19 Fighters with White Raven Tactics, now the Raptorian can sprint at 20x their speed for 1 round.

[Andezzar]

A Wizard, having finite speed, cannot be faster than a Raptorian supported by an infinite number of diverse fighters. Take a mere 19 Fighters with White Raven Tactics, now the Raptorian can sprint at 20x their speed for 1 round.This only works if after each usage the Raptoran is within 10 ft of a fighter with WRT. So the usage is pretty limited. The wizard just has to be more than 10 ft above the fighters.

[Flickerdart]

This only works if after each usage the Raptoran is within 10 ft of a fighter with WRT. So the usage is pretty limited. The wizard just has to be more than 10 ft above the fighters.
If some of the fighters are Jermlaines, a Raptoran could carry a whole mess of them in his backpack with sufficient Strength. This would also let him carry some archers or something while he devoted all his actions to flying.

[ExLibrisMortis]

If you're allowed to stack many diminuitive fighters, can't they form a swarm (or adjusted mob template, the base template doesn't reflect fighter 20 too well) together? I imagine a swarm of 50.000 AMF'd diminuitive fighters 20 with movement and grapple optimization is pretty bad.

Edit: nevermind the kind of power such a swarm gets when White Raven is in play, which is probably not RAW but still interesting.

[Karl Aegis]

Flying fast enough to stay clear of the fighters would require some flight speed optimization, as hide life only gives partial actions. And without running out of spells at that. An item that gives permanent haste would be a good start, but I assume many a fighter would have that too. Are there any items based on Caster level, or something similar not easily duplicated by the fighters?

The other prerequisite for this strategy to work is that there is enough room to keep maneuvering. Let's assume that's the case though. if only because if not: The wizard would happily use 1 or 2 of his precious 'nines' to blast himself the space needed.

So: Can a wizard Fly faster than a raptoran with an item of haste, and maybe a few feats because fighters get loads, and flying fast is actually something a raptoran might put some effort in?

A wizard would rather use wand charges than ninth level spells to create some space.

[Flickerdart]

If you're allowed to stack many diminuitive fighters
Can't get that small without incurring tons of LA, and fighters must be fighter 20.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Hmm, but we can make incarnate constructs, right? This crazy wizard-slaying army better have 'created by an even crazier wizard' in its backstory. Alternatively, continuous items of reduce person on tibbits. Face my swarm of fighter 20 cats!

(Or, you know, you pay someone to cast a chained polymorph any object to turn the fighters into cockroaches or something, 20 at the time. Make sure the fighters start as an insectoid race)

[Twurps]

If you're allowed to stack many diminuitive fighters, can't they form a swarm (or adjusted mob template, the base template doesn't reflect fighter 20 too well) together? I imagine a swarm of 50.000 AMF'd diminuitive fighters 20 with movement and grapple optimization is pretty bad.

Edit: nevermind the kind of power such a swarm gets when White Raven is in play, which is probably not RAW but still interesting.

We don’t need a swarm. All we need is a bunch of raptoran fighters, each carring two germlaine fighers. (I’ll call this a ‘team’). All have 1 use of white raven tactics ready. So each team has 3 WRT ‘uses’.

Preparation: All fighters with higher initiative than the wizard delay, until after the wizard, in the right order to make this work. After the wizard’s turn, all other fighters also use delays where necessary to get their actions in the right order. Then:
1: 2 teams use 2 of their 3 uses to move 3 turns away (including the regular turn) -> 2 teams at 3 movents away with 1 use left.
2: 1 team does as step 1, but then get an extra turn from 1 of the 2 teams above. -> 1 team at 3 movements with 1 use left. 1 team at 4 movements with 1 move left.
3: 1 team does as step 2, then gets the extra movement from the other team that did step 2, and so ends up 5 movements away, with 1 use left.
4: The team that completed step 3 can use its last ‘use’ on its raptoran so he can use a move action to move up to the wizard, and grapple him.
5: profit

Using this method, 4 teams, so 12 fighters total, can get 1 fighter to move 5 full round actions, and 1 standard. Using the ‘not optimized’ benchmark mentioned before, this amounts to 2340ft. The distance is trivial though, as using repetions of the steps above can get larger groups of fighters to move 1 of them much further. There’s no way the wizard will outrun this indefinitely.

Assuming an AMF item as before, ‘freedom of movement’ items and spells won’t work. Stuf that would work? Contingencies, and stuff like forcefields/cages that say ‘no’ to fighters approaching. Being restricted to WBL, both contingencies and ‘NO’ spells will run out though.
So: the number of fighers it takes is A+(B*C)+B

A: The number of fighers killed with the wizard going nova on his first turn(s).
B: the number of fighters it takes to get one to grapple the wizard, in the above example: 12, assuming 2340ft range is enough to survive the wizard doing A. if not, adjust to taste.
C: The number of combinations of contingencies and/or spells the wizard has, saying ‘NO’ to an approaching team. (Lets assume killing the fighters after their trick failed is tivial, and can easily be accomplished in the time any next team has to wait for the protection duration to run out. No other team will approach until the duration of the protective spells run out.

That’s as specific as I can make it, As many of the variables here depend on what the wizard would do.

[Flickerdart]

It's a decent plan for quickly covering ground, and I think that fighter team-ups is probably the best way to go, but "grapple the wizard" doesn't immediately follow "reach the wizard" due to possible defenses between the wizard and the fighter such as walls (of force, or instantaneous conjurations) that block an AMF.

[Twurps]

It's a decent plan for quickly covering ground, and I think that fighter team-ups is probably the best way to go, but "grapple the wizard" doesn't immediately follow "reach the wizard" due to possible defenses between the wizard and the fighter such as walls (of force, or instantaneous conjurations) that block an AMF.

Yep. that would fall in the category of C above. 1 team thwarted. Although the wizard might need to produce some AMF of his own, or the fighter would, instead of using the AMF, use his absorbing shield to destroy the wall/effect.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think that, at this point, the wizard will go from flying to burrowing. You don't need to outrun the raptorans, only spot them and estimate their fly speed (and the wizard will have the knowledge checks to know a fast raptoran when they see one), and plan accordingly.

Edit: You could also have fun with some kind of charm that gets the wizard to be the target of the next WRT. After all, the wizard can polymorph & disguise into a raptoran fighter quite easily.

[Flickerdart]

Yep. that would fall in the category of C above. 1 team thwarted. Although the wizard might need to produce some AMF of his own, or the fighter would, instead of using the AMF, use his absorbing shield to destroy the wall/effect.
It's not 1 team thwarted, it's all teams trying the tactic. Absorbing shield does nothing vs instantaneous conjurations.

[OldTrees1]

I think that, at this point, the wizard will go from flying to burrowing. You don't need to outrun the raptorans, only spot them and estimate their fly speed (and the wizard will have the knowledge checks to know a fast raptoran when they see one), and plan accordingly.

Perhaps Earth Gliding instead? Maybe hiding somewhere in the crust rather than moving around?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I know nothing about burrowing, other than sort of being like flying, but underground? I guess. The main point is that the WRT spam + grapple, which works well (in the sense that the WRT abuse is probably effective, even if it's not too elegant), needs to be augmented by the equivalent burrow and swim teams.

Incidentally, is the Wightpocalypse not viable on the wizard's side? Not with wights per sé, but a wizard with some nice corpsecrafter feats can turn his opponents into better fighters, with a certain degree of self-replenishing as well.

[Flickerdart]

I know nothing about burrowing, other than sort of being like flying, but underground? I guess. The main point is that the WRT spam + grapple, which works well (in the sense that the WRT abuse is probably effective, even if it's not too elegant), needs to be augmented by the equivalent burrow and swim teams.
AMF+grapple is not feasible underground - your line of effect is blocked by the dirt between you and the wizard. You would need to not only already be in his square, but literally touching him, since otherwise there's soil between you. And, well, good luck with that.


Incidentally, is the Wightpocalypse not viable on the wizard's side? Not with wights per sé, but a wizard with some nice corpsecrafter feats can turn his opponents into better fighters, with a certain degree of self-replenishing as well.
Some of the infinite fighters can be diverted to fight the undead fighters, and infinity minus infinity is still infinity.

[OldTrees1]

I know nothing about burrowing, other than sort of being like flying, but underground? I guess. The main point is that the WRT spam + grapple, which works well (in the sense that the WRT abuse is probably effective, even if it's not too elegant), needs to be augmented by the equivalent burrow and swim teams.

Incidentally, is the Wightpocalypse not viable on the wizard's side? Not with wights per sé, but a wizard with some nice corpsecrafter feats can turn his opponents into better fighters, with a certain degree of self-replenishing as well.

Burrowing is 3D walking + gravity so nothing like D&D flying.

Wightpocalypse is an infinite loop with positive feedback. You get 1 guess about whether it is allowed.
Animating a couple fighters via Animate Dread Warrior on the other hand would be permitted but you would not kill enough fighters per spell expended on animation for it to be worth your time compared to the other options(months of Earth Elementals for a 9th level spell or nukes measured in miles).

[Ferronach]

1 fighter with high enough social skills to talk the wizard into a bout of fisticuffs.

2 fighters, 1 to distract the wizard while the other flies overhead and dumps a bag of holding worth of aboleth mucus on the wizard.

1 fighter who wishes for an anti-magic field that negates any and all magic to be attached to the wizard for a day. Fighter then kills wizard.

Vorpal weapons are feasible and would kill the wizard.
Poisons could work too.
if PrC ar ok Shadow sentinels can get their blades between the bars of a forcecage.

A fighter with a vorpal blade and anti-magic item that wishes themselves inside the forcecage...

Don't ignore the fighter because they are not a Tier 1 boomstick :P

[ben-zayb]

1 fighter with high enough social skills to talk the wizard into a bout of fisticuffs.

2 fighters, 1 to distract the wizard while the other flies overhead and dumps a bag of holding worth of aboleth mucus on the wizard.

1 fighter who wishes for an anti-magic field that negates any and all magic to be attached to the wizard for a day. Fighter then kills wizard.

Vorpal weapons are feasible and would kill the wizard.
Poisons could work too.
if PrC ar ok Shadow sentinels can get their blades between the bars of a forcecage.

A fighter with a vorpal blade and anti-magic item that wishes themselves inside the forcecage...

Don't ignore the fighter because they are not a Tier 1 boomstick :PIf we go by stretching the limits of Wish above those rendered as "safe", then wizard wins by Wishing that everyone who had, have, or ever will have a level in the fighter class to be erased from existence. Or some statement like that, except worded better by a Wizard with at least 30 INT.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Burrowing is 3D walking + gravity so nothing like D&D flying.
Okay, well, shows how much I've used burrowing. Sorry about that.


Wightpocalypse is an infinite loop with positive feedback. You get 1 guess about whether it is allowed.
Animating a couple fighters via Animate Dread Warrior on the other hand would be permitted but you would not kill enough fighters per spell expended on animation for it to be worth your time compared to the other options(months of Earth Elementals for a 9th level spell or nukes measured in miles).
Well, we're not using wights because of that, but in general, undead rock (sort of. I like undead). I suppose the earth elementals are the preferred option, but if you can summon something with the ability to control undead, they can turn the fighters against themselves, and in a more fun way than charming them... and then the remaining fighters are constructs, hm, annoying (so don't do this unless you know that all fighters are, in fact, living and susceptible to fear/energy drain auras and the like). Nevermind that then. Moving on...

@Flickerdart: We're not fighting infinite fighters. I think we've established that the fighters win that, because infinite is just a lot bigger than finite (one might even say, on a whole different level). If nothing else, these fighters together get at-will Alter Reality, because they have the power to create an arbitrary number of greater deities through faith. I think that's a reasonable way for a reasonable DM to end the debate, in any case, and a reasonable DM is what's arbitrating this.

Good point about line of sight and effect, but tremorsense isn't that hard to get out of level 20 WBL, is it? Even with that, it seems like this wizard would want to dig in quite early, taking advantage of the fighter's single short-range sense, and making the raptorans something of a just-in-case skywatch. Presumably, summoning earth elementals can be done while burrowing.

[OldTrees1]

Okay, well, shows how much I've used burrowing. Sorry about that.WotC made flying weird. There is nothing for you to apologize for. Honestly I expected flying to be more like burrowing until I read the flying rules.

On to your other point though, numbers of undead can grow quickly. If we can summon a creature that can control creatures that can control creatures that can ... but does not devolve into an infinite loop, then that could complete with the Earth Elemental example. Undead have a few good examples of such(Rebuke Undead controlling undead with Rebuke undead).

[SinsI]

Can we have a few actual Wizard 20 characters that you personally managed to rear under the watchful eye of DM, please?
In a pristine state of "morning of the next day after reaching lvl 20".

I think it is more interesting than trying to measure the infinite power level of theoretical wizard optimization monstrosities that no sane DM will ever let pass.

[Karl Aegis]

Can we have a few actual Wizard 20 characters that you personally managed to rear under the watchful eye of DM, please?
In a pristine state of "morning of the next day after reaching lvl 20".

I think it is more interesting than trying to measure the infinite power level of theoretical wizard optimization monstrosities that no sane DM will ever let pass.

Show us a Fighter that actually makes use of his class features to fight a wizard.

[OldTrees1]

Show us a Fighter that actually makes use of his class features to fight a wizard.

I do not suggest this tangent. After all, for a weak enough Wizard and an optimized enough Fighter you can show Fighter can fight. But is that tangent one you want?

For example: A Fighter can deny their single opponent the ability to act indefinitely while still taking actions themselves (unless the opponent is immune).