Quick Question About Substitution Levels

[IIzak]

Can you take multiple substitution levels at a single level? I'm working on a wizard for a campaign I'm going to be in and I'm already taking the Elven Generalist sub level, but I'm kinda curious if I could also take the thing that lets you trade scribe scroll for a fighter bonus feat and pick up something like improved initiative. Is this possible to do? or no? I can't seem to find anything saying whether you can or can't and I'm curious. Thanks for the help.

[j_spencer93]

as long as they didn't conflict (like they both can't lose the same ability) then i really do not see why not.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The elf substitution level explicitly gets scribe scroll, so you are fine, as it is a level of wizard with scribe scroll.

[Curmudgeon]

That's not multiple substitution levels; it's one class variant and one substitution level. Which is good, because there's no way to actually take multiple substitution levels together.

[eggynack]

That's not multiple substitution levels; it's one class variant and one substitution level. Which is good, because there's no way to actually take multiple substitution levels together.
How's about goliath druid and fangshields druid substitution levels? I don't think there's any conflict there.

[Crake]

How's about goliath druid and fangshields druid substitution levels? I don't think there's any conflict there.

I think it has more to do with the fact that they're technically two different classes. Sure they may replace different things, but you cant be both

[eggynack]

I think it has more to do with the fact that they're technically two different classes. Sure they may replace different things, but you cant be both
Pretty sure they are not two different classes. Nothing really states that, after all, and you can make use of substitution levels as selectively as you like.

[Ashtagon]

I'm not sure how you could take multiple substitution levels at the same level, unless you are using gestalt rules (OP doesn't make that clear). If that isn't what is being done, what, more specifically, is the OP trying to do?

[Curmudgeon]

How's about goliath druid and fangshields druid substitution levels? I don't think there's any conflict there.
There's a conflict in the rules. From the introduction to the Racial Substitution Levels section in Races of the Wild (page 154):
A substitution level is a level of a given class that you take instead of the level described for the standard class. So you can't use a substitution for a substitution; you can only use a substitution for the standard class level.

[Sian]

so you can't use it with Substitution levels that Races of the Wild gives, but does the same count for other books? Note the general opinion that the blurb in Complete Warrior about Prestige Class availability paired with certain classes makes infinity loop

[eggynack]

There's a conflict in the rules. From the introduction to the Racial Substitution Levels section in Races of the Wild (page 154): So you can't use a substitution for a substitution; you can only use a substitution for the standard class level.
Yeah, I don't think you'd be able to take them at the same level, so if that's what you meant then that seems to add up. It is possible to take two different racial substitution levels at two different levels, however.

[OldTrees1]

There is no design reason why Substitution level, Class Variants, and Alternate Class Features should not all be treated as Alternate Class Features when deciding whether or not you, as a DM, would allow combinations. [Note: This is not a RAW argument. This is a "good Design Theory" argument.]

[Greenish]

There is no design reason why Substitution level, Class Variants, and Alternate Class Features should not all be treated as Alternate Class Features when deciding whether or not you, as a DM, would allow combinations. [Note: This is not a RAW argument. This is a "good Design Theory" argument.]Substitution levels mess with more things than just the class features, though. They can change BAB, HD, skills, and skill points (I can't think of any that'd change saves). Stack two substitution levels and you're left to figure out which stats to use.

[OldTrees1]

Substitution levels mess with more things than just the class features, though. They can change BAB, HD, skills, and skill points (I can't think of any that'd change saves). Stack two substitution levels and you're left to figure out which stats to use.

Um.
1) ACFs alter those as well, just less often.
2) If you can't pay the cost of an ACF/Sub level/Class Varient, then you don't get it. Conflicts arise when you are not paying the costs.

[Greenish]

Um.
1) ACFs alter those as well, just less often.
2) If you can't pay the cost of an ACF/Sub level/Class Varient, then you don't get it. Conflicts arise when you are not paying the costs.1. Really? I can't think of any ACF that'd change your HD, say, but okay.
2. But what is the "cost" of, say, warforged fighter 1 getting d12 HD?

[OldTrees1]

1. Really? I can't think of any ACF that'd change your HD, say, but okay.
2. But what is the "cost" of, say, warforged fighter 1 getting d12 HD?

Previously having a d10+ HD and losing the Bonus Fighter Feat of that level(1/2/4). So Warforged Fighter would conflict with anything that removes the Bonus Feat or reduces the HD.