Clarification on an Illithid's full round attack

[Ephemeral_Being]

Straight out of the Monster Manual



Attack: Tentacle +8 melee (1d4+1)
Full Attack: 4 tentacles +8 melee (1d4+1)


And then the only reason that an Illithid would even BOTHER melee attacking a character,



Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a mind flayer must hit a Small, Medium, or Large creature with its tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and attaches the tentacle to the opponent’s head. A mind flayer can grab a Huge or larger creature, but only if it can somehow reach the foe’s head. If a mind flayer begins its turn with at least one tentacle attached, it can try to attach its remaining tentacles with a single grapple check. The opponent can escape with a single successful grapple check or an Escape Artist check, but the mind flayer gets a +2 circumstance bonus for every tentacle that was attached at the beginning of the opponent’s turn.

Extract (Ex): A mind flayer that begins its turn with all four tentacles attached and that makes a successful grapple check automatically extracts the opponent’s
brain, instantly killing that creature. This power is useless against constructs, elementals, oozes, plants, and undead. It is not instantly fatal to foes with multiple heads, such as ettins and hydras.

Say a Mindflayer makes a Full Attack against a PC. Am I supposed to assume he has ONE tentacle attached, or all FOUR? I assume four, but I wanted to make sure.

Additionally, does anyone know of Illithids that aren't CR7 or higher? Specifically, maybe CR3-4?

[Doomeye56]

I always went with the assumption that each of the four tentacles got their own grab attempts. So if all four hit and all four make their grab then you have four attached.
I dont know if this is RAW or not.

[Almarck]

Not sure about the tentacles, but I do believe only the number of tentacles that successfully grab an opponent would work, strangling them by the neck one at a timme so to speak. As a bonus, this means an illithid might be able to make a full attack onto a group of PCs.

Also, I don't know of any canonical examples of low level mindflayers. I believe the intent was to prevent players from having to deal with insta-death so early. However, there are probably a number of negative CR adjusting templates that could be applied, effectively stripping the illithid of more and more powers and abilities. Throwing ability damage for starvation and not allowing it to have items from its entry makes it go down a CR as well.

[OldTrees1]

My reading
Round 1:
Full Attack -> 4 tentacle attacks.
For each hit, make a grapple check to attach that tentacle.

Round 2:
If you have all 4 tentacles attached, Extract!
If you have 1-3 tentacles attached, make a single grapple check to get all 4 attached. Repeat Round 2.
If you have 0 tentacles attached, Repeat Round 1.

So:
4 hits + 4 grapple successes + opponent does not escape(+8DC) = Extract
or
1 hit + 1 grapple success + opponent does not escape(+2DC) + 1 grapple success + opponent does not escape(+8DC) = Extract

Basically hitting 4 times and passing 4 grapple checks just shortens the timer by 1 turn.



Edit: I forget, what is the CR on immature cannibalistic illithid tadpoles*? IIRC the mature ones have an Epic CR but the immature ones have a low CR.

*Without the Elder Brain regulating the brine pools or the Illithids providing fresh nutrients, the tadpoles start to devour each other until only a handful remain and are large enough to exit the pool.

[Ephemeral_Being]

My reading
Round 1:
Full Attack -> 4 tentacle attacks.
For each hit, make a grapple check to attach that tentacle.

Round 2:
If you have all 4 tentacles attached, Extract!
If you have 1-3 tentacles attached, make a single grapple check to get all 4 attached. Repeat Round 2.
If you have 0 tentacles attached, Repeat Round 1.

So:
4 hits + 4 grapple successes + opponent does not escape(+8DC) = Extract
or
1 hit + 1 grapple success + opponent does not escape(+2DC) + 1 grapple success + opponent does not escape(+8DC) = Extract

Basically hitting 4 times and passing 4 grapple checks just shortens the timer by 1 turn.



Edit: I forget, what is the CR on immature cannibalistic illithid tadpoles*? IIRC the mature ones have an Epic CR but the immature ones have a low CR.

*Without the Elder Brain regulating the brine pools or the Illithids providing fresh nutrients, the tadpoles start to devour each other until only a handful remain and are large enough to exit the pool.

Standard Illithids are CR7/8. There are variants in the Lords of Madness book that go higher, though.

AFAIK, no tadpoles ever leave the pool, though. What book did you find that in? I have the MM, LoM, and the Underdark setting book here and none of them say that's a thing. They all say the strongest tadpoles survive, and are transplanted into a medium-sized host.

[ranagrande]

Standard Illithids are CR7/8. There are variants in the Lords of Madness book that go higher, though.

AFAIK, no tadpoles ever leave the pool, though. What book did you find that in? I have the MM, LoM, and the Underdark setting book here and none of them say that's a thing. They all say the strongest tadpoles survive, and are transplanted into a medium-sized host.

It's in Complete Psionic and the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

[aspekt]

It's in Complete Psionic and the Expanded Psionics Handbook.

Weird. LoM says they have to be implanted I thought.

[VariSami]

Weird. LoM says they have to be implanted I thought.

To become Illithids or Half-Illithids, they indeed must be implanted or otherwise find a way to replace the brain of their host. However, they are somewhat capable of surviving outside of the pool and given enough time, they will evolve into a completely different monster, the name of which escapes me. It is in one of the mentioned books, however.

And regarding the actual question... I do not remember the specifics but I think the Half-Illithid template in Underdark was more clearly worded. It does not overwrite the original Illithid's rules but might provide a clue as to how the rules are intended to work.

[black-jack]

I always read it as if you could attack with 4 tentacles, then they all grappled at the same time. If you could only attack with one (ie you moved first), then next round you could finish the grapple with the bonus to your check. And then, of course, brains.

[Flickerdart]

To become Illithids or Half-Illithids, they indeed must be implanted or otherwise find a way to replace the brain of their host. However, they are somewhat capable of surviving outside of the pool and given enough time, they will evolve into a completely different monster, the name of which escapes me. It is in one of the mentioned books, however.
That would be the neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm). The SRD isn't allowed to say anything about it because illithids aren't OGL, but XPH expounds upon them - they're a secret to all illithids because the elder brains don't want their precious pawns going all wacky on them.

[OldTrees1]

That would be the neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm). The SRD isn't allowed to say anything about it because illithids aren't OGL, but XPH expounds upon them - they're a secret to all illithids because the elder brains don't want their precious pawns going all wacky on them.

Wait, if that is the mature one, where is the immature one ...
Larval Flayer Complete Psionics pg 133 CR 1

[Ephemeral_Being]

That would be the neothelid (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/neothelid.htm). The SRD isn't allowed to say anything about it because illithids aren't OGL, but XPH expounds upon them - they're a secret to all illithids because the elder brains don't want their precious pawns going all wacky on them.

That's how you read it? I thought the entry in the XPH implied the Illithids were embarrassed of their existence. Similar to how back 80 years ago, mentally disturbed children were hidden from society? These are the Illithid's Rosemary Kennedy. Except what makes it worse is that without a host, ALL Illithid would turn into them. These are their actual, natural forms. The Illithid pride themselves as being superior to all other races. This is an insult to that belief, a heretical truth. Something that, theoretically, Ilsensine would call her clerics to destroy. I really wish we had more lore on the Illithids. They're fascinating to read about.

Our of curiosity, does anyone know how did the Elder Brains form? Is it related to these Larval Flayers/Neothelids? I can't find an answer. Everything seems to say that even the Illithids don't know. Which is weird, because unless they flew the Brains here on Spelljammer ships the Elder Brains had to originate in Faerun.

[OldTrees1]

That's how you read it? I thought the entry in the XPH implied the Illithids were embarrassed of their existence. Similar to how back 80 years ago, mentally disturbed children were hidden from society? These are the Illithid's Rosemary Kennedy. Except what makes it worse is that without a host, ALL Illithid would turn into them. These are their actual, natural forms. The Illithid pride themselves as being superior to all other races. This is an insult to that belief, a heretical truth. Something that, theoretically, Ilsensine would call her clerics to destroy. I really wish we had more lore on the Illithids. They're fascinating to read about.

Our of curiosity, does anyone know how did the Elder Brains form? Is it related to these Larval Flayers/Neothelids? I can't find an answer. Everything seems to say that even the Illithids don't know. Which is weird, because unless they flew the Brains here on Spelljammer ships the Elder Brains had to originate in Faerun.

Elder Brains, like Illithids come from the future. However I do not know of any information on new Elder Brains since the time travel back. Nor do I know of any information on how the Elder Brains from the future were created/spawned/born.

Personally I consider Elder Brains to be a different species entirely that feed on the illithid tadpoles and brains of deceased illithid. I also consider the "tiny piece of elder brain in a jar" items illithids have to be evidence that elder brains reproduce by splitting/budding.

[Ephemeral_Being]

Elder Brains, like Illithids come from the future. However I do not know of any information on new Elder Brains since the time travel back.

Personally I consider Elder Brains to be a different species entirely that feed on the illithid tadpoles and brains of deceased illithid. I also consider the "tiny piece of elder brain in a jar" items illithids have to be evidence that elder brains reproduce by splitting/budding.

Where is this item? I found jars used to bring Illithid brains back to the Elder Brain if they die far away, but nothing about one containing pieces of the Elder Brain.

[OldTrees1]

Where is this item? I found jars used to bring Illithid brains back to the Elder Brain if they die far away, but nothing about one containing pieces of the Elder Brain.


The brainmate consists of a tiny bud, about the size of a walnut, taken from an elder brain and encased in a crystal globe filled with mucus. The brain matter itself might or might not be visible within the murky goo. The globe can be worn on a chain around the neck or simply carried on the wearer’s person.


Lords of Madness pg 68

[Ephemeral_Being]

Lords of Madness pg 68

Yup. Dunno how I missed that considering the Brain Canister is on that exact same page.

Hm. I don't think I'll be using those much in this campaign. But thanks for pointing it out to me.

[Urpriest]

Once the Illithid hits with a single tentacle, they get a chance to use Improved Grab. If that succeeds, they're in a grapple, so they can't use their remaining tentacles. So after a full attack the illithid can have at most one tentacle attached. They then can make one grapple check to attach all of the remaining tentacles on the next turn.

[hamishspence]

Once the Illithid hits with a single tentacle, they get a chance to use Improved Grab. If that succeeds, they're in a grapple, so they can't use their remaining tentacles. So after a full attack the illithid can have at most one tentacle attached. They then can make one grapple check to attach all of the remaining tentacles on the next turn.

I thought that, because they have the same BAB, all four tentacles resolve at the same time?

So - you roll to hit, for all four tentacles, simultaneously, then you resolve the "start a grab, as a free action" step.

[Flickerdart]

I thought that, because they have the same BAB, all four tentacles resolve at the same time?

So - you roll to hit, for all four tentacles, simultaneously, then you resolve the "start a grab, as a free action" step.
No attacks resolve at the same time. You roll to attack with one tentacle, then all the relevant effects apply, and then you roll to attack with the next tentacle.

Being the same kind of natural weapon just means that they can all be primary attacks.