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Laesin
2007-04-04, 08:30 PM
Does anyone here agree with me that clerics are significantly more powerful than wizards? They have better HD, better saves (one based off their primary stat),better armour, better weapons, domain granted abilities, more spells per day, access to their full spell list and their spells are comparable in power. If someone can show me a reason this isn't an issue I'ld be grateful.

Cybren
2007-04-04, 08:36 PM
Wizards are better for the reason that the cleric domains that get wizard spells are so good

Arbitrarity
2007-04-04, 08:41 PM
The wizard is the wizard. He has battlefield control. He has the only safety spells (MMM).

Course, if the cleric loads up with miracles, he can do about the same, but for his 9'th level slots.

Let's see what the wizard has that the cleric doesn't at 9th level spells.

Foresight, freedom, imprisonment, prismatic sphere, disjunction. Refuge, teleport circle, dominate monster, mass hold monster, Power word kill, useless evocation, shades, weird, wish, wail of the banshee, SHAPECHANGE, TIMESTOP.

Cleric has storm of vengeance, miracle, mass heal, and true ressurection.

The cleric is definately better for buffing, but once you get into that level of spells, wizards have way better spell selection. Splatbooks make it worse. Domains can help a bit, but not that much.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-04, 08:48 PM
I will show you a whole bunch of reasons this isn't an issue:

Alarm, Grease, Sleep, Color Spray, Disguise Self, Ray of Enfeeblement, Charm Person, Enlarge Person, Glitterdust, Web, See Invisibility, Shatter, Mirror Image, Invisibility, Alter Self, Rope Trick, Phantom Steed, Deep Slumber, Major Image, Ray of Exhaustion, Blink, Fly, Haste, Slow, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Solid Fog, Resilient Sphere, Greater Invisibility, Confusion, Enervation, Fear, Polymorph, Teleport, Cloudkill, Telepathic Bond, Dominate Person, Feeblemind, Wall of Force, Baleful Polymorph, Overland Flight, Acid Fog, Greater Heroism, Contingency, Disintegrate, Spell Turning, Magnificent Mansion, Greater Teleport, Greater Arcane Sight, Insanity, Forcecage, Finger of Death, Mind Blank, Prismatic Wall, Maze, Moment of Prescience, Irresistible Dance, Greater Shadow Evocation, Imprisonment, Disjunction, Teleportation Circle, Foresight, Dominate Monster, Crushing Hand, Shapechange, Time Stop.

Tellah
2007-04-04, 08:53 PM
their spells are comparable in power

Nope, not even close. Divine spells are significantly weaker in terms of damage (if you're into that sort of thing) and utility. See: Invisibility, Hold Monster, Mordenkainen's Disjnuction, Major Creation, Polymorph, Alter Self, Power Word: X, Ray of Enfeeblement, Solid Fog and a hundred others.

Edit: holy crap it's a bear ninja get in the choppa!

Cybren
2007-04-04, 08:53 PM
Timestop and celerity is all the wizard needs though.
infact calling the wizard batman is kind of innacurate since batman had to come up with really complex plans when the wizard pretty much has the same spells that do everything.

Orzel
2007-04-04, 08:53 PM
Most of the cleric's advantages over the wizards don't come itno play much shortly after low level. Wizard's can mimic or negate the strengths of other classes better than cleric. The clerics's HD, BAB, and Saves only put them over wizards when surprise is involved. Otherwise a Wizard could cast a few spells and gain decent to excellent defense.

RandomNPC
2007-04-04, 08:57 PM
what are you saying the wizard can't emulate other classes? need a fighter? gate in the three from last town over that owe you a few favors, and have them bring a rogue and a monk with them. need a barb? cast rage on the monk. need healing? gate in a cleric! wait... that defeats the purpose.

Cruiser1
2007-04-04, 09:13 PM
A Cleric can cast Miracle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) to duplicate any Wizard spell up to 7th level. That's any spell in existence! A Wizard can only cast spells they've prepared that day, and can only ever cast spells they've bought and scribed in their spellbook. Miracle allows a Cleric to combine the spontaneousness of the Sorcerer with a much greater spell selection than the Wizard.

A Wizard can cast Wish (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) to duplicate a Cleric spell up to 6th level, but only if that spell isn't from a prohibited school, and also casting that one spell costs the Wizard 5000 XP! Lame! The Cleric can duplicate spells with Miracle for free. Clerics are better than Wizards, because a Cleric can be a Wizard, but not vice-versa.

Clerics can heal, Wizards can't. Clerics have hp, Wizards go down easily. Clerics have the highest will saves, Wizards have merely ok will saves. Clerics can be tanks, Wizards have to hide behind them. Clerics get all their spells for free, Wizards have to hunt them down and pay for them. Clerics have armor, Wizards wear dresses. Clerics pwn Wizards!

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-04, 09:16 PM
A Cleric can cast Miracle to duplicate any Wizard spell up to 7th level. That's any spell in existence! A Wizard can only cast spells they're prepared that day, and can only ever cast spells they've bought and scribed in their spellbook. Miracle allows a Cleric to combine the spontaneousness of the Sorcerer with a much greater spell selection than the Wizard.
...except that he's only going to ready, what, four Miracles? That just isn't up to snuff.
Not to mention all those levels BEFORE 17th.

Yes, Miracle is great.
A 16th level or under cleric doesn't have it. A 20th level cleric is going to be memorizing a Foresight or two, a couple of Miracles to emulate the Wu Jen's Giant Size, leaving him all of a couple free Miracles.
Sure, the cleric can be a wizard... for a couple of spells a day. Doesn't count.


Clerics can heal, Wizards can't. Clerics have hp, Wizards go down easily. Clerics have the highest will saves, Wizards have merely ok will saves. Clerics can be tanks, Wizards have to hide behind them. Clerics get all their spells for free, Wizards have to hunt them down and pay for them. Clerics have armor, Wizards wear dresses. Clerics pwn Wizards!
All of this is balanced out by the fact that wizard spells are just that much better at every spell level. I gave a list above.

Orzel
2007-04-04, 09:22 PM
If you hit a wizard with any weapon or spell, they lose.
But you actually have to hit a wizard with the weapon or spell.

I could buy WotC and rename it to OMG Monkeys!
But I actually have to get the mony to buy WotC.

JaronK
2007-04-04, 09:26 PM
Well, a Cleric with the right domain (animal I think) can cast Divine Persitant Shapechange and turn into a Black Ethergaunt, and thus become a Wizard, so that's worth something...

PaladinBoy
2007-04-04, 09:28 PM
...except that he's only going to ready, what, four Miracles? That just isn't up to snuff.
Not to mention all those levels BEFORE 17th.

I agree with that. Just because the cleric gets miracle doesn't make him better than the wizard.


Sure, the cleric can be a wizard... for a couple of spells a day. Doesn't count.

...........:smallconfused:

Okay...... the wizard can only do what he does for as long as he has spell slots, just like the cleric.

Doesn't even really matter because a cleric's job is not to be the wizard. The cleric heals and tanks.


All of this is balanced out by the fact that wizard spells are just that much better at every spell level. I gave a list above.

Depends on the job.

If you need a healer, all those "better" wizard spells are not going to be much good.

Seatbelt
2007-04-04, 09:33 PM
Wizards wear dresses. I think this proves it right there. :P

Cybren
2007-04-04, 09:35 PM
I agree with that. Just because the cleric gets miracle doesn't make him better than the wizard.



...........:smallconfused:

Okay...... the wizard can only do what he does for as long as he has spell slots, just like the cleric.

Doesn't even really matter because a cleric's job is not to be the wizard. The cleric heals and tanks.



Depends on the job.

If you need a healer, all those "better" wizard spells are not going to be much good.
Well in a party situation yeah sure. In the context of 1 on 1 comparison though the cleric isn't as powerful.
Rogues aren't as powerful as either of them, and people, even powergamers, still like having them in groups

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-04, 09:37 PM
Paladin: the point is the cleric can only do the wizard thing for as long as he has Miracles, which is like two to four. It's an important point, at least when someone says "Miracle duplicates wizard spells, so clerics can be wizards!"

No, wizards can't heal. Although a wizard could teleport you to a temple where you could purchase healing pretty cheaply, I suppose.
Nevertheless, the wizard spell list is vastly more powerful (except in that one area).

Jack Mann
2007-04-04, 09:40 PM
But the wizard has enough spell slots to do so pretty much all day long (at least, by the time the cleric has Miracle). The cleric just doesn't have the spell slots to cast that many arcane spells. The wizard has all of his pre-seventh level spell slots to do this, and he has level eight and nine spells to throw around if need be.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-04, 09:44 PM
Why pit them against each other? A team of four wizards is less savory than a team of three wizards and a cleric due entirely to utility, especially if you aren't high-level yet.

Laesin
2007-04-04, 09:45 PM
I'll grant a Wizard with a large spell list is superior in some ways to a cleric, but a 20 wiz vs a 20 cleric has spent a not insignificant potion of his wealth on those spells, wealth that the cleric has spent on magic items to improve his abilities. The cleric has a distinct advantage in that.

Cybren
2007-04-04, 09:47 PM
Why pit them against each other? A team of four wizards is less savory than a team of three wizards and a cleric due entirely to utility, especially if you aren't high-level yet.
I dunno a team of four wizards at level 20 is basically godly. One competent wizard usually screws of the DM plenty in a party of four.
Imagine four.
Woah.

brian c
2007-04-04, 09:58 PM
Timestop and celerity is all the wizard needs though.
infact calling the wizard batman is kind of innacurate since batman had to come up with really complex plans when the wizard pretty much has the same spells that do everything.

wizard = batman is because of utility; the only downside to playing a wizard at high level is that your spells prepared are limited, you can't just use any spell at any time (but you know more spells than the sorceror so are usually still much more powerful). Not to say that wizards aren't still a Win button when played well, but playing that well ain't easy to do in terms of spell selection. Very much possible though.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-04, 09:59 PM
I dunno a team of four wizards at level 20 is basically godly. One competent wizard usually screws of the DM plenty in a party of four.
Imagine four.
Woah.
Its actually a fun game if you can get the DM to give you a use activated item for healing. But you should expect the party to do really, really epic things. Like destroy whole empires on Monday and end the blood war on Tuesday.

The_Snark
2007-04-04, 10:05 PM
I dunno a team of four wizards at level 20 is basically godly. One competent wizard usually screws of the DM plenty in a party of four.
Imagine four.
Woah.

Four wizards means that the DM will be throwing a lot of flying golems, antimagic fields, and ridiculously executed stealth attacks. (As in, chronotyrn assassins who can somehow Plane Shift into the Magnificent Mansion.)

Clerics and wizards do different things. In the areas of debuffing, save-or-lose, and general control, the wizard's spell list is superior. For healing, the cleric's list is better, and it contains some fairly good spells in other categories. Buffing, the two are actually close to even—except when you count in the cleric's better proficiencies, HP, and such.

I wouldn't say the cleric's more powerful than the wizard, but either can give the other a whole lot of trouble.

Orzel
2007-04-04, 10:19 PM
A team of 4 wizards means higher level wizards as enemies means lots of rerolling PCs.

iceman
2007-04-04, 11:23 PM
This is why you go with the Mystic Theurge. You get the best of both worlds.

That being said the cleric has better, and more "built" in defenses than the wizard. These being the good saves to fort and will (with wisdom being the primary score for clerics), the ability to wear armor, better HD, the ability to step back and heal. While the wizard does have the better spell selection, hands down. But, the wizard still has to cast those spells before the cleric pulls out one of those fort save or die spells on the wizard.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-04, 11:33 PM
This is why you go with the Mystic Theurge. You get the best of both worlds.
No, you don't go mystic theurge. If you do, you don't get the best of either world.


That being said the cleric has better, and more "built" in defenses than the wizard. These being the good saves to fort and will (with wisdom being the primary score for clerics), the ability to wear armor, better HD, the ability to step back and heal. While the wizard does have the better spell selection, hands down. But, the wizard still has to cast those spells before the cleric pulls out one of those fort save or die spells on the wizard.

The wizard has defenses against those spells.

Variable Arcana
2007-04-05, 01:02 AM
This is why you go with the Mystic Theurge. You get the best of both worlds.
Two parties face off in a great arena.

Party 1: Four Mystic Theurges

Party 2: Two Wizards and Two Clerics

At what level do you believe Party 1 stands any chance at all?

Reinboom
2007-04-05, 01:23 AM
Wizards don't get healing spells? What kind of weird assumption is that!
To the miracle arguments: Wish.
To the no healing spells on a wizard: Synostodweomer , a level 7 healing spell for sorcerers and wizards from the spell compendium.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-05, 01:39 AM
Doesn't Vampiric Touch heal?

False Life also grants the Wizard as much as 50%(?) more HP(temporary), which puts him at 3/4 HP compared to the Cleric. Of course, at those levels, nobody uses HP for anything other than determining if you can be hit by a Power Word spell.

Cleric20 has 8+19*4.5=93(+Con Mod*20) HP. 123 HP, given a generous roll for Con. If he's really really lucky, the Cleric might have 200 HP. Without Constitution, the Cleric is looking at being blinded, useless(stunned) or dead. None of which even needs to be permanent. For a game measured in 6 second blocks, being useless on the order of minutes is a death sentence.

Jack Mann
2007-04-05, 02:14 AM
Vampiric touch gives you temporary hit points, not healing.

greenknight
2007-04-05, 02:45 AM
A Cleric with the Magic and Trickery Domains is able to cast most of the really good Arcane spells (through Wands and Scrolls if nothing else), and gets all the Cleric goodness besides. That type of Cleric is about equal to a Wizard, IMO. But without the Magic Domain especially, a Cleric just can't quite equal a Wizard at the high levels.

lord_khaine
2007-04-05, 03:48 AM
ehh false life dont give your wizard 50% more Hp at the lv we are talking about.

as for who is best, thats not a question that can be given a simple answer, as it depends on a lot of factors, fx what lv does we talk about here, the balance of power shift a lot during the lvs 1-20.

and are we talking about a 1vs1 deathmach in a arena? or are we sending each out on a solo adventure, with diverse encounters both physical, mental and social?

and lastly, how much additional material besides core are we allowing? and how optimised are we going to assume each are? for if we allow all the books wizards have made, and let both of them face off after having been 100% optimised then we would have a 2nd bloodwar on our hands, where a infinitive legion of solars battle in the sky, while 2 impregnable globes of power lob Mordenkains disjunctions at each other, in the hope of bringing the opponents shields down long enough to finish him off.

to finish this off, ill just mention some of those spells clerics get that wizards dont, like Holy word, Heal, implosion, spell immunity and implosion.

ralin
2007-04-05, 09:45 PM
Spellbooks make the wizard weaker than the cleric.

1. Wizards need to pay to get anywhere near a decent number of spells from their spell list. Clerics always have access to the entire list. Wizards can't even use spells from another wizard's spellbook unless they first pay to have it copied into their own - what's up with that!?

2. Wizards need their spellbook with them to prepare spells. Clerics can always prepare any spell on their list. This is the most retarded concept in the D&D game. Wizards are supposed to be highly intelligent, why can't they remember their damn spells!? God forbid a wizard have his spellbook captured by the BBEG, or his house/library burn down!

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-05, 10:44 PM
Cleric can be blocked if he goes against his deity, or a higher deity blocks their deity, or one of the higher level clerics of their order casts Anathema(Champions of Ruin). :P

AmoDman
2007-04-05, 11:07 PM
Spellbooks make the wizard weaker than the cleric.

1. Wizards need to pay to get anywhere near a decent number of spells from their spell list. Clerics always have access to the entire list. Wizards can't even use spells from another wizard's spellbook unless they first pay to have it copied into their own - what's up with that!?


Generally. That's another Wizard charging you gp. An argument could be made that members of arcane colleges would share all their spells within their community...making wizards who are members of particular associations, well, as powerful as you'd imagine an association of wizards to be.

ralin
2007-04-06, 03:19 AM
Generally. That's another Wizard charging you gp. An argument could be made that members of arcane colleges would share all their spells within their community...making wizards who are members of particular associations, well, as powerful as you'd imagine an association of wizards to be.

From the player's handbook, my italics (pg 178):

A wizard can use a borrowed spellbook to prepare a spell she already knows and has recorded in her own spellbook...

Based on core rules alone, if you find a library full of spellbooks any new spells need to be copied into your own book at a cost of 100gp per page before you can utilise them.

Thank god for the rules on mastering foreign spell books (Complete Arcane).

Njerus_Xhazekarath
2007-04-06, 04:15 AM
In terms of sheer power and PvP capabilities, high level wizards will always win the day. Let alone all those save-or-die spells (which would be sort of useless to the cleric which has good Fort and Will saves), high-damaging spells (which becomes more and more obsolete as the game progresses); Mordenkainen's Disjunction will simply ruin the day of those who oppose the wizard's might. After that, with no more buffing spells active, no more magical items to boost and the once-godly weapon of legend will be no more than a masterwork toothpick.

Sadly, clerics can't duplicate that, and even if they did, wizards have a better chance of surviving without the help of magical items (using teleport, MMM and other various goodies) compared to the cleric, who can... turn undead? Maybe he can even rebuke them ("Bad Undead! Bad!")! Oh, goodie.

Hey, there's a reason why WotC is not CotC lol.


Nevertheless, this does not mean that clerics are inferior to wizards; it's just their... thing. They are generally superior in melee combat than wizards (by far) and most other classes (when fully buffed). Clerics heal, they hit hard, and they can also take a few good (bad) hits. Wizards? They "utilise", or sometimes, blastaway (although this tend to be the sorcerer's job after all).

This difference in their role in the party makes them useful in many situations, but will sometimes make them obsolete in unfavourable situations. Why pit a good cleric against a bloodthirsty (tee hee) wizard when she can fight hand-to-hand with a hecachondreires? (lots of pun intended.)

Hey, it is only a matter of unique circumstances which pits one against an unfavourable measure of undercurrents, which he or she does not possess the proficiency to properly favour the circumstances.

Go epic, however- it's the one who wins the initiative that will win the day regardless of their classes.




Umm, hope I made myself clear. My idea is that wizards will surely survive, but it's not because one's inferior to another, but because they are different. And being different is okay.

PlatinumJester
2007-04-06, 06:10 AM
At low level a cleric could pwn a wizard/socerer but at higher levels the wizard/socerer would have an incredibly unfair advantage due to overpowered spells i.e. wish

Illiterate Scribe
2007-04-06, 06:22 AM
One trick the Cleric can pull which the Wizard can't is 'Divine Metamagic: Persistent Power'. Crank that up to ridiculous levels (read: 'Twice Betrayer of Shar'), and you've got your wizard killer.

I mean, it even took a rules fudge to prevent persistent time stops (which hasn't been applied to the psionic version - hmm ...)

KoDT69
2007-04-06, 09:42 AM
And don't forget about stuff like divination spells. If that is a factor the cleric has double the divination power and 100% accuracy. Commune (questions = level, 100% accuracy from the cleric's own "powers") > Contact Other Plane (Level/2 questions, used to contact Outer Plane at 88% accuracy). Clerics also get a lot of dispelling type stuff, can counterspell, and spells like Greater Spell Immunity. Clerics are no easy mark...

AmoDman
2007-04-06, 10:02 AM
And don't forget about stuff like divination spells. If that is a factor the cleric has double the divination power and 100% accuracy. Commune (questions = level, 100% accuracy from the cleric's own "powers") > Contact Other Plane (Level/2 questions, used to contact Outer Plane at 88% accuracy). Clerics also get a lot of dispelling type stuff, can counterspell, and spells like Greater Spell Immunity. Clerics are no easy mark...

Although my Imp for character I just built gets 6 Commune Questions a week...(Improved Familiar, SRD version).

choryukami
2007-04-06, 10:32 AM
I heard somebody propose a caster group. I say make this group:

1 Wizard, 1 Druid, 1 Cleric, 1 Sorcerer. CoDZilla does the front lines, Sorcerer and Wizard blast, Wizard does utility spells. It'd be like a team of superheroes.

Druid says: I feel a disturbance in the wild! I must call my super friends!
Wizard: I got your message telepathically! Let's teleport to it!
Sorcerer: Got it.
Cleric: Oh mighty patron, how do we beat this evil?

Patron: Wish it to death at negative 30 HP.

Wizard: Celerity! Time Stop! Haste! Shapechange into Red Dragon! Mage Armor! Tenser's Transformation! etc etc etc
Druid: Transform into... Dire Polar Bear! Animal Growth!
Cleric: Divine Power! Bless! Divine Agility! Miracle for Giant Growth!
Sorcerer: Sudden Maximized Meteor Swarm Coming your way, followed by a Sudden Quickened Disintegrate.

Tarrasque: Urgh?

Boom!

The peril averted, the Caster Friends returned to their Den of ... Mordenkainen.

Sorcerer: Greater Teleport.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

P.S. I apologize for contributing nothing to this conversation. :smalltongue: