Bard/Druid gestalt help

[Dysjong]

Greetings Giant forum! Once Again, i come here to seek guideance.

I have recently joined a group, lvl 2 to begin with and for once, i thought i would try something different. After some time to consider what i wanted with my character, i came to the conlusion that i wanted to play a druid. My goal with this druid is to change the Worlds view upon them and also change the druid themself (according to the World, druidic magic is forbidden and many druids are evil.)

After that, i tried and search around the internet to see what i could create in a gestalt, and while i have seen many threads advice to use a swordsage (with good reason), i felt that it really didnt fit into the idea about my concept, henceforth the bard came into mind!

My idea, is that he is a caster and support, with a charming face. I did take the Lost tradition feat so both spells come from the same ability score.

What good prestige classes would fit into this concept and perhaps, what are good feats?

I Humble thank you for your time and much appreciatede advices.

[eggynack]

What kinda book access are you working with? If you have the book of exalted deeds, then it sounds like you'd like running the ultra-good druid archetype, using vow of poverty and lion of talisid as a prestige class. With that base, you could actually plausibly do better not taking lost tradition, as words of creation requires charisma and it's a pretty sweet feat (though only with vow of poverty). Charisma makes for a halfway decent tertiary stat anyway, especially if you're trying to charm folks.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Geomancer will also key your spells off of the same ability score, either wisdom or charisma, but does that one spell level at the time (need to take all ten levels to get the benefit for ninth-level spells). It also removes arcane spell failure chance at the same pace. You get some nice nature-themed abilities on the side, but it doesn't advance wild shape or bardic music.

There are two obvious theurgic classes, advancing full arcane and divine casting, which may be banned in gestalt, depending on your DM: Fochluchan Lyrist and Arcane Hierophant. Arcane Hierophant advances wild shape, removes ASF from nonmetal light and medium armour, and combines your familiar and animal companion (but you don't have a familiar). Fochluchan Lyrist advances bardic music and bardic knowledge, and allows you to wear light metal armour. It does require evasion, which is annoying to pick up. You can use a soulmeld, Impulse Boots, to get it, with uncanny dodge added for free (costs two feats total).

Finally, if you're going for bard casting, two levels of Sublime Chord is always a good idea, to fast-track your bard casting and get ninths before level 20.

[Hiro Quester]

This seems like a good combination (and not just because my previous character was a bard and I'm now playing a druid).

There's good BFC and buff synergy for lower levels. (Sing inspire courage, cast Barkshin on the tank. Plus your summoned animals can perhaps get the benefits of some of your inspire buffs, if you don't make them language-dependent (see below).

The problem with this is that you will be somewhat MAD. Wis and Cha for spells, Int for skills. And Con to not die. You can dump Str and Dex, since you can get those through wildshape.

It might be good to look at a Divine Bard. No arcane spell Failure. Wis for your casting stat on all spells. That way you can concentrate on having a high wis and key the DC and spells/day off this one highest stat) and will be able to get by with a decent but not maxed charisma.

Wis>Cha=Con>Int>wis>dex>str. (You need high Con since your hit points are based on it, and these don't change when your Con score changes in wildshape.)

Edit: if Cha is your casting stat, then you are much less MAD: CHA>Con>int=wis=dex>str.

Race: Forest gnome is good for the druid synergy (they speak forest animal). And Bard is favored class. +2 Con is useful. and the -2 Str won't hurt too much.

One problem is your primary perform skill, since in wildshape you won't be able to sing or play an instrument for bardic music. Perform (hum)? Perhaps Perform (act), which includes mime, since in wildshape you won't be able to sing or play an instrument for bardic music. (My current druid makes perform (act) roles to communicate to the party in wildshape.) See if your DM will allow an inspiring hum. (I'm imagining you as a tiger hum/growling "The Ride of the Valkyries" as you pounce into the fray.)

You might be able to use a pearl of speech, to enable your animal forms to a humanoid language. Many people use it that way, but your DM would have to agree with the interpretation there. Some interpret the pearl to enable you to speak another language in addition to the ones you can speak. But in bear shape you can't make you mouth make the noises for any humanoid language. YMMV.

For feats you should get Melodic Casting. This enables you not have to keep both concentration and perform maxed. It lets you use your high perform score to do double-duty for concentration checks, too, when casting or using a SLA. Druids need concentration maxed; many abilities and spells depend on concentration. And you will often be combat casting, especially in wildshape. Also it enables you to cast spells while performing a bardic music.

And learn the Bard spell Harmonize. lasts minutes/level. Cast it just before an encounter. It enables you to begin a bardic music as a move action. This plus melodic casting means that you can begin bardic music and cast a spell on the first round.

Edit: just re-read the OP and see the lost tradition feat comment. Perhaps Divine Bard would save you a feat, though?. Charisma for everything could be better, though?

[Dysjong]

Thank you all for your replys. They have helped me with some ideas about what to do.

eggynack; All books are open and 3rd party books are most of the times allowed, GM does have the finale say however.

Exlibrismortis; GM has ruleed that no prestige lvls that adds to two caster lvls is allowed (geomancer, mystic theurge etc). I do have like your suggestion about the sublime chord.

Hiro Quester; thank you for your advice :D

After what i have seen, i think i have something in mind.

2 lvls in sublime chord, to have acces to some higher lvls arcane magic, then the lion of talisid prestige class. Im sure i can somehow mix this together and get full valuta from this.

I do like the melodic casting feat and Word of creation does posses some interesting options, both in combat and roleplaying terms. My biggest concern however, would be vow of poverty, although it is powerful, from a roleplaying view it would be hard but then again, it could be a fun challenge.

i can already see the Picture in my head....and the view is starting to look good. Thank you all for your inspiration

[eggynack]

My biggest concern however, would be vow of poverty, although it is powerful, from a roleplaying view it would be hard but then again, it could be a fun challenge.
It's actually a reduction in power, so if it's not a thing you want from other perspectives, then picking it up is probably a bad plan. There are other reasonable things you could do for ultra-good theming though. Lion of talisid is, as was mentioned, a reasonable prestige class, and exalted wild shape is very powerful for both blink dog and celestial forms for the Ex special qualities of animals. Exalted companion is decent as well, as it lets you apply VoP to your companion.

[Bob of Mage]

Exlibrismortis; GM has ruleed that no prestige lvls that adds to two caster lvls is allowed (geomancer, mystic theurge etc). I do have like your suggestion about the sublime chord.

I would point out that Geomancer only add one caster level per level. The thing is that it's effect work on both classes at the same time. In normal play you would always be weak then a pure caster, but would get so fun options (Wizard in full plate, Druid casting off INT, bat wings and no need to eat since you are solar powered).

Besides the spell mixing, you get something called "Drift". Each level you choose an option from the tables to add a change that happens to your PC as a side effect from channeling the power of the nature. The low level ones are things like vines for hair or scales (no in game effects until level 3). At higher levels you can grow wings, horns with a gore attack, thorns, claws, and feed off sunlight like a plant. It adds a nice bit of RP favour if playing as a Druid, moreso due to the fact you would need to hide the sides of nature magic as you gain levels (well at least until you get so powerful no one messes with you).

[sideswipe]

consider divine bard, you get the same spell list i believe with a few additions which are nice themselves.

you also dump the need for charisma entirely, but you could still have some if you want to be a face of sorts. it just makes you a little less MAD.

just been schooled.... see below.

[Troacctid]

consider divine bard, you get the same spell list i believe with a few additions which are nice themselves.

you also dump the need for charisma entirely, but you could still have some if you want to be a face of sorts. it just makes you a little less MAD.

Divine Bards still use Cha to determine their bonus spells and save DCs, so you still care quite a lot about it.

[Dysjong]

Okay... Now i am confused.

Many bard builds where they use 2 sublime chord lvls, would stil allow them to acces to lvl 9th spells? How is that possible? I get it, that if you go all the way into the prestige class.. But 2 lvls? What am i missing?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Okay... Now i am confused.

Many bard builds where they use 2 sublime chord lvls, would stil allow them to acces to lvl 9th spells? How is that possible? I get it, that if you go all the way into the prestige class.. But 2 lvls? What am i missing?
You then use a different prestige class (say Virtuoso) to advance your sublime chord casting instead of your base Bard casting.

If your DM won't let a Pearl of Speech count for bardic music and such, a quick dip in Master of Many Forms will get you Shifter's Speech, which pretty much unequivocally works.

[Darrin]

Many bard builds where they use 2 sublime chord lvls, would stil allow them to acces to lvl 9th spells? How is that possible?

Sublime Chord has it's own casting progression, from 4th level spells up to 9th. If you take a prestige class that has "+1 arcane caster level", you can apply that caster level to either your Bard casting or your Sublime Chord casting. Many people take only two levels of Sublime Chord because you can get better BAB or better class features than finishing out Sublime Chord.

[Dysjong]

Aha, that explains alot. I just thought that class feature at sublime lvl 2 was awesome, especielly in a gestalt combination.

[Hiro Quester]

I just had a thought. Many aspects of the Hi Welcome druid (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9724.0)build depend on a druid taking leadership to get a bard cohort. The bard's songs buff all your summoned animals to scary levels. Think Dragonfire inspiration, sung in tiger, so your tiger wildshape, tiger AC, and summoned tigers all get many d6 damage to their five attacks per round (when pouncing).

A Druid bard gestalt can get up to many of the same shenanigans, though not in the same round, I guess.

[Dysjong]

Ran into a problem. A friend of mine just comments about the idea with sublime chord and virtuoso. According to him, you can't stack virtuoso caster lvls with sublime chords, sinds it says spellcasting class and sublime chord is a prestige class. Can this be true?

[Hiro Quester]

Ran into a problem. A friend of mine just comments about the idea with sublime chord and virtuoso. According to him, you can't stack virtuoso caster lvls with sublime chords, sinds it says spellcasting class and sublime chord is a prestige class. Can this be true?

No. It's not. A prestige class with casting is a casting class.

[eggynack]

Ran into a problem. A friend of mine just comments about the idea with sublime chord and virtuoso. According to him, you can't stack virtuoso caster lvls with sublime chords, sinds it says spellcasting class and sublime chord is a prestige class. Can this be true?
No, there's nothing that says a prestige class can't be a spellcasting class. Specifically, the fact that sublime chord has its own casting progression, independent of everything, makes it a thing that can be advanced in this fashion. By contrast, the casting advancement of virtuoso does not qualify it as a spellcasting class, because it merely advances the casting of other classes.

[Dysjong]

Okay. But if i take virtuoso after 2 lvls of SC, the virtuoso would add to the bard side? Thus it wouldnt help progress the SC spell progression but the bard spell progression? Just trying to have my arguments rdy in case the GM or my friends why this is legit.

[eggynack]

Okay. But if i take virtuoso after 2 lvls of SC, the virtuoso would add to the bard side? Thus it wouldnt help progress the SC spell progression but the bard spell progression? Just trying to have my arguments rdy in case the GM or my friends why this is legit.
You're the one that chooses which casting to advance, so you can pick either bard or sublime chord.

[Nightraiderx]

virtuoso would have to be added to the bard side, because sublime chord is on your bard side.
No, there is nothing forcing you to take those + 1 to arcane caster level to the bard base class, because nothing
restricts your gestalt from multi-classing. You could've dipped bard and sorcerer on one side for example and virtuoso could've been added
to either your sorcerer or bard levels. So there's no restriction for prestige classes doing a similar thing.

[Darrin]

Ran into a problem. A friend of mine just comments about the idea with sublime chord and virtuoso. According to him, you can't stack virtuoso caster lvls with sublime chords, sinds it says spellcasting class and sublime chord is a prestige class. Can this be true?

Your friend is mistaken. Prestige classes are a subset of classes. When referring to "arcane spellcasting class", Sublime Chord is just as valid as a class as Bard or Wizard.

However, if you read the "Spells per Day/Spells Known" section of Virtuoso carefully, it says:

"Beginning at 2nd level, a virtuoso gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class to which he belonged before adding the prestige class level."
(emphasis added)

It's ambiguous if this refers to the first Virtuoso level or the second. Most people assume this refers to the 2nd Virtuoso level, which allows them to delay getting more Virtuoso levels until they have one or two Sublime chord levels, so they can choose between advancing Bard or Sublime Chord casting. A pedantic DM might insist that Virtuoso can only advance the spellcasting of a class you had before taking any Virtuoso levels.

[Hiro Quester]

That's rigt. You choose. The rule is there in the description of virtuoso's spell casting:

If he had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a virtuoso, he must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day and spells known.

[Nightraiderx]

As far as you casting issue, there is a feat called Dynamic Priest that allows you to switch your divine casting attribute to cha for spells levels and extra spells known.
However, your save dc's would still be based off of wisdom, but this way would allow you to be more of a face and pump cha higher and have wisdom secondary.
Int isn't as important as you think as bard gets a good skill point base you can work off.

I however am not sure if the book is accepted, but I think it's 3.5 material. Dragonlance Campaign: Legend of the Twins