Half Dragon template=Immortality?

[MorgromTheOrc]

So if I take a warforged make him an incarnate construct, then apply the half minotaur or half ogre template the make him large size and the symbiotic creature template to combine him with a kobold or goblin or any small race(preferably a dragonwrought kobold) and then have him take toughness and troll blooded to give him regeneration 1 except to fire and acid. But I made his first 6 levels 3 in the classed half dragon template for a red dragon and then 3 in the same for a black dragon. I then, since the requirements are some feats, sometime before 20th level or hopefully now if the design was right, have him take 5 levels in warforged juggernaut to become immune to ability damage, death/necromancy effects, and mind affecting spells and such.

So basically he should be immune to everything since magic couldn't auto-kill him and he can't be killed by any form of damage. And even if you wanted to trap him somehow he could have reasonably bought(or possibly made since he is very smart and might have wizard friends) some kind of anti magic item of some sort.

Also the kobold part is assuming la buyoff and is mostly there because I think it's funny to think the kobold is inside him secretly controlling such a powerful creature which by the way at this point would have at least +28 to strength. And also you could theoretically do some pun-pun stuff in epic if you felt it necessary.

[Flickerdart]

Yep, regeneration plus energy resistance is a pretty old trick called the Ikea Tarrasque. Look up the Emerald Legion for a shot at ultimate immortality, covering all sorts of edge cases Warforged Juggernaut won't protect you from.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm not entirely sure you can apply those templates in that order. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can't. You're trying to retroactively cross-breed your warforged there.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to be an undead troll of some sort, or a half-golem troll? You can always pick up the energy immunities via some aquired templates.

[Deophaun]

With all those halves, I'm pretty sure you could find something here (http://www.williams-sonoma.com/shop/cutlery/cheese-knives/) that would kill it.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Yep, regeneration plus energy resistance is a pretty old trick called the Ikea Tarrasque. Look up the Emerald Legion for a shot at ultimate immortality, covering all sorts of edge cases Warforged Juggernaut won't protect you from.

Alright thank you I was having an argument with my friend and he was saying no melee type no matter how optimized could ever beat even an unskilled player using a wizard/sorcerer and when I brought this up he kept claiming that you couldn't do something like this according to the rules.

[MorgromTheOrc]

I'm not entirely sure you can apply those templates in that order. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can't. You're trying to retroactively cross-breed your warforged there.

Wouldn't it be a lot easier to be an undead troll of some sort, or a half-golem troll? You can always pick up the energy immunities via some aquired templates.

I checked the books and that's the only way you can apply them.

Also it's specifically stated that you must have a con score to have regeneration otherwise you only get fast healing which can easily be bypassed.

[Deophaun]

Alright thank you I was having an argument with my friend and he was saying no melee type no matter how optimized could ever beat even an unskilled player using a wizard/sorcerer and when I brought this up he kept claiming that you couldn't do something like this according to the rules.
And unskilled player using a wizard/sorcerer? A housecat can kill it. Those classes have a floor that grazes the Earth's mantle.

[MorgromTheOrc]

With all those halves, I'm pretty sure you could find something here (http://www.williams-sonoma.com/shop/cutlery/cheese-knives/) that would kill it.

Nice I understand what you mean but RAW says it's okay, someone explained it to me as you get the power from the magic blood so as long as that doesn't dilute, like a half dragon and a human, but instead is two half dragons it makes sense for it to add up.

[Flickerdart]

Alright thank you I was having an argument with my friend and he was saying no melee type no matter how optimized could ever beat even an unskilled player using a wizard/sorcerer and when I brought this up he kept claiming that you couldn't do something like this according to the rules.
Mmm...well, you see, what you've done there is just waste your entire build on defenses. You have no offensive powers whatsoever. A wizard could just trap you with walls of force (immune to AMF) or bury you under an avalanche or in an earthquake (with perfectly mundane soil), and then you lose, not because you're dead, but because you're trapped forever.

[MorgromTheOrc]

And unskilled player using a wizard/sorcerer? A housecat can kill it. Those classes have a floor that grazes the Earth's mantle.

Yeah it's mainly a problem with my gaming group because everyone is convinced wizards are even more OP than they are given my DM really really favours wizards since his wife ALWAYS plays one. He lets her not prepare spells, improve them infinity with spellcraft(I swear he doesn't know what the skill does) they automatically know all spells of their level that are on their list and can cast spontaneously. Also he's never monitored her spells per day or checked to make sure whatever spell she pretends is on the list is even there(he has very limited knowledge of DND)

They always claim I have optimized through the roof characters, even the time I played a tiefling monk that I took pains not to optimize and only did 6 damage max in the entire campaign(never killed a single enemy he always missed). So I wanted to show them real power, by the books. And tanking's always been my specialty.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Mmm...well, you see, what you've done there is just waste your entire build on defenses. You have no offensive powers whatsoever. A wizard could just trap you with walls of force (immune to AMF) or bury you under an avalanche or in an earthquake (with perfectly mundane soil), and then you lose, not because you're dead, but because you're trapped forever.

That's what he said, I was planning on focusing extra feats on optimizing the breath and making it easy to get close to the wizard since I can already fly. The anti-magic item part was to try and prevent to much magic stuff like that happening close to me.

[MorgromTheOrc]

That's what he said, I was planning on focusing extra feats on optimizing the breath and making it easy to get close to the wizard since I can already fly. The anti-magic item part was to try and prevent to much magic stuff like that happening close to me.

Sorry I missed the wall of force part. But I think the fact that the wizard has to trap you means you already won. Like an ancient power that had to be sealed away.

[Flickerdart]

That's what he said, I was planning on focusing extra feats on optimizing the breath and making it easy to get close to the wizard since I can already fly. The anti-magic item part was to try and prevent to much magic stuff like that happening close to me.
The breath is a joke, and will not accomplish anything. Neither will the AMF - you'll never get close enough to prevent him from casting, and even if you do there are a bunch of ways of avoiding its effects. If he was feeling especially lazy, he could Gate in a dragon to swallow you and then plane shift to the Positive Energy plane, where he would spit you out and abandon you to explode.

[Urpriest]

I checked the books and that's the only way you can apply them.

Also it's specifically stated that you must have a con score to have regeneration otherwise you only get fast healing which can easily be bypassed.

Inherited Templates have to apply before Acquired Templates in all cases, by definition. So no, that's not a way that you can apply them.

[MorgromTheOrc]

The breath is a joke, and will not accomplish anything. Neither will the AMF - you'll never get close enough to prevent him from casting, and even if you do there are a bunch of ways of avoiding its effects. If he was feeling especially lazy, he could Gate in a dragon to swallow you and then plane shift to the Positive Energy plane, where he would spit you out and abandon you to explode.

True there are a lot of things I saw on the Emerald Legion that I wasn't aware of, however remember the wizards he is facing are stupid kind that think any round not spent casting fireball or magic missile is a wasted round no matter how much you tell them you're immune. Even though the DM would let them cast whatever spell they wanted none of them would be smart enough to gate or anything besides try to direct damage or charming.

Also I was thinking of replacing the anti-magic item with the half golem template and possibly even change the classed templates to instead just be regular, barring an infinite incarnate construct loop to get rid of the la, do you think that would work better to allow for the classes to be focused on damage?

[MorgromTheOrc]

Inherited Templates have to apply before Acquired Templates in all cases, by definition. So no, that's not a way that you can apply them.

I can always just apply them to the Kobold part then and not need the extra strength anyways, just the immunities. Although I did read that you can in some ways apply templates like that because of the possibility of changing heritage through magic rituals, depending on your DM. Plus I thought it was said that you could apply templates in whatever order you like?

[Flickerdart]

Also I was thinking of replacing the anti-magic item with the half golem template and possibly even change the classed templates to instead just be regular, barring an infinite incarnate construct loop to get rid of the la, do you think that would work better to allow for the classes to be focused on damage?
Half-Golem has LA --*. You cannot be a player character with it

*Technically it has no listed LA, but it's a 3.0 template when things worked a little differently - if it was a playable monster, there would be a little blurb at the end describing what ECL you would have and so forth.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Half-Golem has LA --*. You cannot be a player character with it

*Technically it has no listed LA, but it's a 3.0 template when things worked a little differently - if it was a playable monster, there would be a little blurb at the end describing what ECL you would have and so forth.

I don't understand why you can't use it, I've seen it used dozens of times before by PCs. I always saw it as LA-0. I mean it definitely seems designed to be used by players when I look at it at least?

[Deophaun]

True there are a lot of things I saw on the Emerald Legion that I wasn't aware of, however remember the wizards he is facing are stupid kind that think any round not spent casting fireball or magic missile is a wasted round no matter how much you tell them you're immune.
If that's all they do then just do Warblade X and have an item with a permanent anti-magic field radiating from it. You're golden. No crazy templates needed.

[MorgromTheOrc]

If that's all they do then just do Warblade X and have an item with a permanent anti-magic field radiating from it. You're golden. No crazy templates needed.

I was planning on an antimagic field anyways, but warblades and that like that have systems my DM doesn't understand aren't allowed sadly. And besides the antimagic field wouldn't protect against all spells.

[PseudoPanda]

The way the Half-Golem template is portrayed in MM2 would imply that it was intended for players but the official update of that book lists them as LA - and are therefore not meant for players.

[Deophaun]

I was planning on an antimagic field anyways, but warblades and that like that have systems my DM doesn't understand aren't allowed sadly. And besides the antimagic field wouldn't protect against all spells.
So, your DM removes the best things melee users have going for them and gives wizards unfettered and unlimited access to the font of cosmic power, boosted by their spellcraft checks.

I have to ask why bother? When he says an unoptimized wizard cannot be beaten by the most optimized melee, just pat him on the head and offer him a cookie.

And yeah, AMFs don't protect against all spells, but they do seem to protect against the ones your fellow players are using. Besides, would the DM even know?

[MorgromTheOrc]

The way the Half-Golem template is portrayed in MM2 would imply that it was intended for players but the official update of that book lists them as LA - and are therefore not meant for players.

Ah darn, although my friend didn't say a PC melee build it could always be seen as an NPC creation much like the Emerald Legion.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Certain effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicTransferHostile.htm) automatically ignore regeneration, and any spellcaster who focuses on fire spells would have Searing Spell, which makes fire spells still deal half damage to creatures immune to fire damage, and Orb of Fire goes through antimagic field. Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) will also destroy you if it would reduce you to 0 hit points, and plenty of creatures besides spellcasters have access to that.

Any creature with a "LA —" race or template has no ECL, and thus is incapable of gaining experience points or class levels. That's why you can't use those templates for PCs. It's like making an undead character with Con —, and then trying to gain bonuses to your Con score. If you don't have it, you can't improve it.

[MorgromTheOrc]

So, your DM removes the best things melee users have going for them and gives wizards unfettered and unlimited access to the font of cosmic power, boosted by their spellcraft checks.

I have to ask why bother? When he says an unoptimized wizard cannot be beaten by the most optimized melee, just pat him on the head and offer him a cookie.

And yeah, AMFs don't protect against all spells, but they do seem to protect against the ones your fellow players are using. Besides, would the DM even know?

That's true he might not even know, his knowledge comes from skimming a couple manuals and the DUN DUN DUN dandwiki. But I really really want to get rid of the smug attitude my fellow players who all run casters or ranger/rogues always have towards my melee characters that they claim are somehow both useless but overpowered.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Certain effects (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/empathicTransferHostile.htm) automatically ignore regeneration, and any spellcaster who focuses on fire spells would have Searing Spell, which makes fire spells still deal half damage to creatures immune to fire damage, and Orb of Fire goes through antimagic field. Disintegrate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disintegrate.htm) will also destroy you if it would reduce you to 0 hit points, and plenty of creatures besides spellcasters have access to that.

Any creature with a "LA —" race or template has no ECL, and thus is incapable of gaining experience points or class levels. That's why you can't use those templates for PCs. It's like making an undead character with Con —, and then trying to gain bonuses to your Con score. If you don't have it, you can't improve it.

Any damage that would still be half done would be ignored do to regeneration, and attacks that ignore regeneration and auto-kill are ignored do to immunity from death effects, massive damage, ability damage/drain and the like from warforged juggernaut.

[Flickerdart]

melee characters that they claim are somehow both useless but overpowered.
Well, here's the thing.

Melee isn't useless. It's super great at one thing - running up to other melee and hitting it for ridiculous stacks of damage. Unfortunately, not only is it bad at anything else in combat (including advanced tactical movement, taking hits, applying conditions, battlefield control, etc) it's also worthless outside of battle. It's possible to build around this, but 3.5 requires such large feat investments to be good at anything that you end up with one token trick that you have no choice but to spam over and over. So it's very easy to have a melee character that completely wrecks a very specific type of encounter (which makes the DM angry because he can't run that kind of encounter without the one character hogging the spotlight) but is useless at all other times (which makes the DM angry because he can't just run encounters while knowing that one character won't be able to contribute anything).


Any damage that would still be half done would be ignored do to regeneration
Empathic Transfer is explicitly not subject to regeneration.

[PseudoPanda]

Empathic Transfer is explicitly not subject to regeneration.

Though it is Mind-affecting which Warforged Juggernaut protects against so there's that. Still, disintegration is not a death effect that is not subject to regeneration even if he saves.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Well, here's the thing.

Melee isn't useless. It's super great at one thing - running up to other melee and hitting it for ridiculous stacks of damage. Unfortunately, not only is it bad at anything else in combat (including advanced tactical movement, taking hits, applying conditions, battlefield control, etc) it's also worthless outside of battle. It's possible to build around this, but 3.5 requires such large feat investments to be good at anything that you end up with one token trick that you have no choice but to spam over and over. So it's very easy to have a melee character that completely wrecks a very specific type of encounter (which makes the DM angry because he can't run that kind of encounter without the one character hogging the spotlight) but is useless at all other times (which makes the DM angry because he can't just run encounters while knowing that one character won't be able to contribute anything).


Empathic Transfer is explicitly not subject to regeneration.

I ignored empathic transfer because as already stated he is immune to mind altering effects. But I see what you mean about melee builds but I just can't stand the idea of playing anything else, I refuse to play the broken wizards of our games and rogues just aren't my style. I thought about maybe going artificer but I'm not sure if it will be possible unless we have a ton of gold, which we never do I've had 1000 max at level 10 once.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Though it is Mind-affecting which Warforged Juggernaut protects against so there's that. Still, disintegration is not a death effect that is not subject to regeneration even if he saves.

Yeah that's why I was wanting half-golem but now anti-magic of some kind seems the only path unless I can play it off as an NPC build. Though I guess technically my group wouldn't know that half-golem was NPC only since I had to tell them how LA worked, but that's cheating and I want it to be legit.

[PseudoPanda]

The better option might be to just talk to your DM about how he treats spellcasters and let him know how unfair it is to the other players. At very least make a case for things like ToB and how they can help even the playing field a bit.

[Deadline]

Have you considered a Duskblade? That will let you hit things with a sword and cast quite well. That said, a well played wizard can trump everything except another well played wizard. A poorly played wizard is easy pickings for any well played role of another class.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Any damage that would still be half done would be ignored do to regeneration, and attacks that ignore regeneration and auto-kill are ignored do to immunity from death effects, massive damage, ability damage/drain and the like from warforged juggernaut.

Disintegrate is not a death effect, massive damage, or ability damage/drain. Any ability that deals normal hit point damage will still deal normal hit point damage to you if you have regeneration, but the regeneration ability allows you to treat it as nonlethal damage, after it's been dealt to you. That doesn't mean the spell treats it as nonlethal damage, and if the spell deals enough damage to reduce you to 0 or fewer hit points, you're reduced to a tiny bit of fine dust.

Orb of Fire with Searing Spell still deals half of its fire damage to you, and fire damage goes through your regeneration.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Disintegrate is not a death effect, massive damage, or ability damage/drain. Any ability that deals normal hit point damage will still deal normal hit point damage to you if you have regeneration, but the regeneration ability allows you to treat it as nonlethal damage, after it's been dealt to you. That doesn't mean the spell treats it as nonlethal damage, and if the spell deals enough damage to reduce you to 0 or fewer hit points, you're reduced to a tiny bit of fine dust.

Orb of Fire with Searing Spell still deals half of its fire damage to you, and fire damage goes through your regeneration.

If disintegrate doesn't fall under any of those categories then what is it?

[ExLibrisMortis]

If disintegrate doesn't fall under any of those categories then what is it?
It's unique, untyped disintegrate damage. And magic (SR: Yes), so magic immunity will protect against it.

[MorgromTheOrc]

The better option might be to just talk to your DM about how he treats spellcasters and let him know how unfair it is to the other players. At very least make a case for things like ToB and how they can help even the playing field a bit.

He has spellcasters like that because his wife plays one, he claims melee are overpowered and wizards are underpowered and no matter how much I try to sway him he won't listen. I'm thinking about maybe playing an artificer but I'm not sure if I can get enough gold to make it work.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If disintegrate doesn't fall under any of those categories then what is it?

It's a transmutation, such spells turn giants into squirrels, wizards into burly trolls, rock into mud, flesh into stone, pools of molten lava into cloth patches and back again, and regenerating creatures into piles of dust. There are only a few ways (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineRanksAndPowers.htm#transmutation) to get immunity to transmutation effects, though blanket magic immunity still usually works.



He has spellcasters like that because his wife plays one, he claims melee are overpowered and wizards are underpowered and no matter how much I try to sway him he won't listen. I'm thinking about maybe playing an artificer but I'm not sure if I can get enough gold to make it work.

Make an arcane gish, or a DMM: Persist Cleric.

[MorgromTheOrc]

It's unique, untyped disintegrate damage. And magic (SR: Yes), so magic immunity will protect against it.

So the anti-magic item would block it anyways.

[MorgromTheOrc]

What do you think of possibly taking the mineral warrior template as well somewhere along the line, possibly on the kobold so it can be applied before half dragon and still keep flight. This way I can have a burrow speed to escape if a wizard tries to trap me underground?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Flight gained after Mineral Warrior is still retained. For example, apply Dragonborn with the wings aspect, current racial traits (but not types or subtypes) are lost, then apply Mineral Warrior, lose any current fly speed, and then at 6th level gain a fly speed.

Regardless, if your DM thinks melee classes are better than spellcasters, your best option is not to make an unkillable melee class character, make a spellcaster who's so strong at melee that he can solo every encounter. A fully buffed spellcaster can have an AC too high for anything to hit, always make touch attacks and power attack for his full BAB and still hit, be immune to just about anything that gets thrown at him, and even have Persistent Selective Spell Antimagic Field so he can still buff himself and cast spells but nothing can use magic on him.

[Crake]

I'm surprised nobody has brought up trollbane? The thing that lets you bypass any regeneration? So all that work is defeated by a 90gp alchemical item.

As for disintegrate, the fact is that the target never actually takes hit point damage. That the damage is treated as nonlethal means just that, the damage is treated as nonlethal, meaning your hit point total never changes. If your hit point total never changes (because nonlethal counts up, rather than detracting from your hit point total) you can never be reduced to 0 hit points, meaning disintegrate can never actually disintegrate you.

That said, implosion is a non-death effect save or die, so that could still kill you.

[oxybe]

Dump the guy's face underwater/in a vacuum and find a way to evacuate his lungs and you've basically forced suffocation on the guy, which is neither a death effect and ignores regeneration. Magic immune is rarely actually immune to magic, it just means the caster needs to be a bit more creative in the use of his spells.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Dump the guy's face underwater/in a vacuum and find a way to evacuate his lungs and you've basically forced suffocation on the guy, which is neither a death effect and ignores regeneration. Magic immune is rarely actually immune to magic, it just means the caster needs to be a bit more creative in the use of his spells.

Good point but how are you going to make someone with a minimum strength score of 48 do anything that requires you to physically force him? (Guaranteed start of 18+12 from half minotaur+16 from half dragon+ 2 from mineral warrior and likely the 2 additional from being over level 8 would probably put him at 50 str)

[MorgromTheOrc]

I'm surprised nobody has brought up trollbane? The thing that lets you bypass any regeneration? So all that work is defeated by a 90gp alchemical item.

As for disintegrate, the fact is that the target never actually takes hit point damage. That the damage is treated as nonlethal means just that, the damage is treated as nonlethal, meaning your hit point total never changes. If your hit point total never changes (because nonlethal counts up, rather than detracting from your hit point total) you can never be reduced to 0 hit points, meaning disintegrate can never actually disintegrate you.

That said, implosion is a non-death effect save or die, so that could still kill you.

That would work if it were a level 17 wizard vs my level 11-12 melee build but having the wizard be vastly higher level than me isn't really the point, I'm already well aware that a wizard wins in most even fights I'm definitely not trying to be one in an unfair fight.

EDIT: Also I wanted the half golem template for the trollbane since it must be on a slashing or piercing weapon and half clay would make him immune.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Flight gained after Mineral Warrior is still retained. For example, apply Dragonborn with the wings aspect, current racial traits (but not types or subtypes) are lost, then apply Mineral Warrior, lose any current fly speed, and then at 6th level gain a fly speed.

Regardless, if your DM thinks melee classes are better than spellcasters, your best option is not to make an unkillable melee class character, make a spellcaster who's so strong at melee that he can solo every encounter. A fully buffed spellcaster can have an AC too high for anything to hit, always make touch attacks and power attack for his full BAB and still hit, be immune to just about anything that gets thrown at him, and even have Persistent Selective Spell Antimagic Field so he can still buff himself and cast spells but nothing can use magic on him.

Like a muscle wizard? I never really saw how that was too possible with spell durations and limited per day, even with illumian to make you cast off spells to get almost infinite spells per day you still have durations. Wouldn't an artificer focused on self buffing work better?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Like a muscle wizard? I never really saw how that was too possible with spell durations and limited per day, even with illumian to make you cast off spells to get almost infinite spells per day you still have durations. Wouldn't an artificer focused on self buffing work better?

Incantatrix or Spelldancer lets you add Persistent Spell to all your important buffs, same goes for Divine Metamagic and a pile of Night Sticks on a Cleric, but it's not as obscene as doing it with arcane spells. Roll around with 24-hour duration Shield (+9 thanks to Abjurant Champion), Wraithstrike, Greater/Superior Invisibility, Ray Deflection, Draconic Polymorph into a War Troll plus Bite of the Werebear (Str 55, Dex 18, Con 39, +21 natural armor), Magic Circle Against Evil, Swift Fly, Fell Drain/Frighten Fire Shield twice, Fell Drain/Frighten Death Armor, Fell Drain/Frighten Cloud of Knives, and best of all Selective Antimagic Field. Plus (Rod of) Extended hour/level spells like Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Luminous Armor (+13 thanks to Abjurant Champion), Greater Mighty Wallop, etc. Then there are 24-hour duration spells like Greater/Superior Resistance, Energy Immunity, and Mind Blank.

That has an AC of 56 (+13 armor, +9 shield, +21 natural, +4 Dex, -1 size), gets around +25 to hit their touch AC when he's power attacking for his full BAB, and can have all the necessary effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) covered between spells and WBL because he doesn't have to spend money on weapons, armor, or enhancement bonuses to stats. On top of that you can Circlet of Rapid Casting a Web or Glitterdust or similar to keep multiple opponents out of the fight for several rounds while you lay waste to the ones who appear to be an immediate threat. Like I said, he can solo every encounter.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Incantatrix or Spelldancer lets you add Persistent Spell to all your important buffs, same goes for Divine Metamagic and a pile of Night Sticks on a Cleric, but it's not as obscene as doing it with arcane spells. Roll around with 24-hour duration Shield (+9 thanks to Abjurant Champion), Wraithstrike, Greater/Superior Invisibility, Ray Deflection, Draconic Polymorph into a War Troll plus Bite of the Werebear (Str 55, Dex 18, Con 39, +21 natural armor), Magic Circle Against Evil, Swift Fly, Fell Drain/Frighten Fire Shield twice, Fell Drain/Frighten Death Armor, Fell Drain/Frighten Cloud of Knives, and best of all Selective Antimagic Field. Plus (Rod of) Extended hour/level spells like Heart of Air/Water/Earth/Fire, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Luminous Armor (+13 thanks to Abjurant Champion), Greater Mighty Wallop, etc. Then there are 24-hour duration spells like Greater/Superior Resistance, Energy Immunity, and Mind Blank.

That has an AC of 56 (+13 armor, +9 shield, +21 natural, +4 Dex, -1 size), gets around +25 to hit their touch AC when he's power attacking for his full BAB, and can have all the necessary effects (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items) covered between spells and WBL because he doesn't have to spend money on weapons, armor, or enhancement bonuses to stats. On top of that you can Circlet of Rapid Casting a Web or Glitterdust or similar to keep multiple opponents out of the fight for several rounds while you lay waste to the ones who appear to be an immediate threat. Like I said, he can solo every encounter.

Nice I was thinking about starting a new thread to discuss that but you pretty much finished it. I still feel like using artificer now thats it's on my mind though, so maybe I'll start a thread discussing combining artificer with leadership and create device replacing his craft construct and some other things that way his dedicated wrights can infinitely mass produce while he's adventuring, like maybe one or two is making more while the others work on items to sell in order to make money for more of themselves. Then he comes back and has them work on a grand project for him like an iron golem or effigy army, or assuming high level an iron colossus?

[MorgromTheOrc]

Before I think about starting a new thread though is there anyone who thinks they can take the groundwork I layed and turn it into what I wanted? In other words take the half dragon template/class to make an immortal melee build that can defeat an equivalent level wizard of lower optimization?

[Crake]

That would work if it were a level 17 wizard vs my level 11-12 melee build but having the wizard be vastly higher level than me isn't really the point, I'm already well aware that a wizard wins in most even fights I'm definitely not trying to be one in an unfair fight.

EDIT: Also I wanted the half golem template for the trollbane since it must be on a slashing or piercing weapon and half clay would make him immune.

A morningstar is both piercing and bludgeoning, so it could simultaneously have trollbane on it, but still damage a half clay golem by means of bludgeoning damage.

[PseudoPanda]

Dump the guy's face underwater/in a vacuum and find a way to evacuate his lungs and you've basically forced suffocation on the guy, which is neither a death effect and ignores regeneration. Magic immune is rarely actually immune to magic, it just means the caster needs to be a bit more creative in the use of his spells.

Warforged do not need to breathe so this isn't actually a problem.


Before I think about starting a new thread though is there anyone who thinks they can take the groundwork I layed and turn it into what I wanted? In other words take the half dragon template/class to make an immortal melee build that can defeat an equivalent level wizard of lower optimization?

It depends on what level you want but half black dragon+ Wildshape Ranger 5+ Master of Many forms 7+ wildshape into a war troll (MM3) gives you immunity to the main stuff. Get an item of anti-magice field and you're set for all targeted spells that aren't instantaneous conjuration (creation).

Though I agree a well made gish (DMM cleric is my favorite) is a good way to shut everyone up about how powerful melee is.

[Sam K]

Sorry I missed the wall of force part. But I think the fact that the wizard has to trap you means you already won. Like an ancient power that had to be sealed away.

This is how the really powerful wizards win. At higher power levels, actually getting something to -10 hp is a sub-optimal solution not just because of the resources used, but because resurrections are pretty much assumed. Death is one of the easiest things to have a contingency plan for.

If you can find a way to put a person somewhere where they cant be contacted or located, and they cannot leave or actually DO anything in any way, that's much more efficient AND harder to plan for.

[MorgromTheOrc]

A morningstar is both piercing and bludgeoning, so it could simultaneously have trollbane on it, but still damage a half clay golem by means of bludgeoning damage.

I thought that the general consensus was that most were leaving that decision up to the DM since the rules didn't specifically state it. And anyways any wizard stupid enough to get close enough to hit a double half dragon half minotaur troll blooded warforged with a morning star doesn't have to worry about my regeneration anymore because they're being crushed by claws and teeth before they can get the 130+ health down or escape from his 80+ fly speed.

[MorgromTheOrc]

This is how the really powerful wizards win. At higher power levels, actually getting something to -10 hp is a sub-optimal solution not just because of the resources used, but because resurrections are pretty much assumed. Death is one of the easiest things to have a contingency plan for.

If you can find a way to put a person somewhere where they cant be contacted or located, and they cannot leave or actually DO anything in any way, that's much more efficient AND harder to plan for.

I can see your point, so a melee build can't beat an optimal wizard, but I still think that a suboptimal wizard that just throws around fireballs and charms could be beat.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Warforged do not need to breathe so this isn't actually a problem.



It depends on what level you want but half black dragon+ Wildshape Ranger 5+ Master of Many forms 7+ wildshape into a war troll (MM3) gives you immunity to the main stuff. Get an item of anti-magice field and you're set for all targeted spells that aren't instantaneous conjuration (creation).

Though I agree a well made gish (DMM cleric is my favorite) is a good way to shut everyone up about how powerful melee is.

I like the unique methods but wouldn't that actually have less immunities since it doesn't get the ones from warforged juggernaut?

[Crake]

I thought that the general consensus was that most were leaving that decision up to the DM since the rules didn't specifically state it. And anyways any wizard stupid enough to get close enough to hit a double half dragon half minotaur troll blooded warforged with a morning star doesn't have to worry about my regeneration anymore because they're being crushed by claws and teeth before they can get the 130+ health down or escape from his 80+ fly speed.

You mean the wizard's dominated warblade that he's buffed up?

[Deadline]

I thought that the general consensus was that most were leaving that decision up to the DM since the rules didn't specifically state it.

This said by the guy who wants to apply half dragon (twice) to an incarnate construct warforged and use the not for PC's half-golem template as well. Sorry, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander.


And anyways any wizard stupid enough to get close enough to hit a double half dragon half minotaur troll blooded warforged with a morning star doesn't have to worry about my regeneration anymore because they're being crushed by claws and teeth before they can get the 130+ health down or escape from his 80+ fly speed.

The important bit you are missing, of course, is how you are hitting the wizard in the first place. If you are referring to a poorly optimized wizard that decides to swing at you ineffectually with his quarterstaff, then sure. If you are referring to a well-made gish, then no, all the strength bonus in the world won't help you hit. (Seriously, a level 1 conjurer who faces off against an epic level fighter can evade 4-6 swings per day with 100% reliability. Abrupt Jaunt is awesome.)

And I'll echo what others have said, if you are trying to prove to your GM that Wizards are powerful, then you are going about it the exact wrong way. And if you are trying to one-vs-one a blaster wizard, you certainly don't need to play the template game. Blasting is the one of the least optimal ways of playing a wizard.

[Deophaun]

The important bit you are missing, of course, is how you are hitting the wizard in the first place. If you are referring to a poorly optimized wizard that decides to swing at you ineffectually with his quarterstaff, then sure. If you are referring to a well-made gish, then no, all the strength bonus in the world won't help you hit. (Seriously, a level 1 conjurer who faces off against an epic level fighter can evade 4-6 swings per day with 100% reliability. Abrupt Jaunt is awesome.)
Abrupt Jaunt is only awesome for avoiding full attacks. If they have movement, they can still walk over and wail on you.

[Deadline]

Abrupt Jaunt is only awesome for avoiding full attacks. If they have movement, they can still walk over and wail on you.

Right, forgot about that. So the 1st level wizard is probably out of luck (although he still limits the epic level fighter to non full attacks). Add a few levels so you can get a miss chance (or have a contingent spell) and you can avoid harm entirely (albeit as a gamble with the miss chance). The point being, it's easier to avoid harm and dish out pain as a wizard than a melee class. And again, if the worst you have to deal with is a blaster wizard, a bog standard fighter can probably do ok.

[PseudoPanda]

I like the unique methods but wouldn't that actually have less immunities since it doesn't get the ones from warforged juggernaut?

True, I was thinking just use the antimagic field for that but now I realize since Wild shape is (Su) it would be suppressed as well. Though you can become a necropolitan (Libris Mortis), Wild shape does not change your type but still changes your con score so you can have regeneration while still being immune to nonlethal damage (Some might say that immunity to nonlethal is tied to not having a Con score but RAW it's a feature of the undead type) immune to mind-affecting effects, death effects, ability drain, energy drain, damage to physical stats and a bunch of other goodies.

Though I still agree with everyone else; this is not the way to convince anyone that spellcasters are overpowered.

[oxybe]

If I remember correctly Incarnate Construct changes your creature type to humanoid from whatever it currenly is, and you lose your Warforged "living construct" traits and other special qualities.

I could be wrong though.

[MorgromTheOrc]

You mean the wizard's dominated warblade that he's buffed up?

You again forget that this is a suboptimal wizard that the build is theoretically facing they wouldn't think to use that. And besides warblades are banned at my table as I said above and though I do see that you are right in guessing that a wizard+ a melee is better than just a melee but by the same token I could theoretically use leadership and the like to have my own(although somewhat lesser) casters to back me in the same way, but that ruins the point.

[MorgromTheOrc]

If I remember correctly Incarnate Construct changes your creature type to humanoid from whatever it currenly is, and you lose your Warforged "living construct" traits and other special qualities.

I could be wrong though.

Yes but his special warforged qualities are coming from the warforged juggernaut class that only requires you have some feats you'd take anyways and be a warforged, it doesn't state be a living construct it says be a warforged which is still technically your listed race with incarnate construct.

[MorgromTheOrc]

This said by the guy who wants to apply half dragon (twice) to an incarnate construct warforged and use the not for PC's half-golem template as well. Sorry, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander.



The important bit you are missing, of course, is how you are hitting the wizard in the first place. If you are referring to a poorly optimized wizard that decides to swing at you ineffectually with his quarterstaff, then sure. If you are referring to a well-made gish, then no, all the strength bonus in the world won't help you hit. (Seriously, a level 1 conjurer who faces off against an epic level fighter can evade 4-6 swings per day with 100% reliability. Abrupt Jaunt is awesome.)

And I'll echo what others have said, if you are trying to prove to your GM that Wizards are powerful, then you are going about it the exact wrong way. And if you are trying to one-vs-one a blaster wizard, you certainly don't need to play the template game. Blasting is the one of the least optimal ways of playing a wizard.

While I agree half golem is uncalled for it is not part of the current build that stands as the original post+ mineral warrior. And the difference is that half-golem and the bludgeoning+ weapons isn't handled by RAW while it is specifically stated that you can have more than one half dragon type, examples are even given.

[MorgromTheOrc]

I will say that my goal of making a melee that can beat a suboptimal wizard of equal level is accomplished but I do agree that it isn't the best way to get my DM to have a better stance on casters. The idea of playing his absurdly broken wizards or sorcerers almost physically pains me though, and the one time I did play a caster(not arcane it was a cleric but equally broken) his wife complained that she felt useless since I actually properly used it instead of just blasting stuff like her and some other players do. He ended up saying that one of my inflict critical wounds backfired and killed me to shut her up about it. So an actual caster won't work, at least not the basic ones but he bans what he doesn't understand so most good outside source casters are a no. That's why I wanted to try an artificer so I could still keep the same power level as the broken wizard club while following rules and showing them it can be fun to do things the right way. Since literally crafting my spells is the closest they'll ever see to preparing them and following casting times like they are supposed to. (for reference I've never seen one of them even make a scroll)

[oxybe]

Yes but his special warforged qualities are coming from the warforged juggernaut class that only requires you have some feats you'd take anyways and be a warforged, it doesn't state be a living construct it says be a warforged which is still technically your listed race with incarnate construct.
Warforged Juggernaut has no bearing on your character's ability to not drown or suffocate in and of itself. The warforged's ability to not require breathing is due to his living construct traits, which he loses when he becomes a humanoid via the Incarnate Construct. Nothing about the Juggernaut class indicates that he doesn't need to breathe. He just grows some spikey shoulder pads and gains immunities.

[Deadline]

While I agree half golem is uncalled for it is not part of the current build that stands as the original post+ mineral warrior. And the difference is that half-golem and the bludgeoning+ weapons isn't handled by RAW while it is specifically stated that you can have more than one half dragon type, examples are even given.

You also need to be careful about applying templates. Check page 293 of the Monster Manual:


Adding More Than One Template

In theory, there's no limit to the number of templates you can add to a creature. To add more than one template, just apply each template one at a time. Always apply inherited templates before applying acquired templates. Whenever you add multiple templates, pay attention to the creature's type - you may add a template that makes the creature ineligible for other templates you might want to add.

Bolded for emphasis. Incarnate Construct is an Acquired template, Half-Dragon is an Inherited template. So the order they go in matters. You can still apply Half-Dragon to a construct, I think.

[PseudoPanda]

Warforged Juggernaut has no bearing on your character's ability to not drown or suffocate in and of itself. The warforged's ability to not require breathing is due to his living construct traits, which he loses when he becomes a humanoid via the Incarnate Construct. Nothing about the Juggernaut class indicates that he doesn't need to breathe. He just grows some spikey shoulder pads and gains immunities.

Living Construct is subtype and not a type, incarnate construct only changes type (yes it seems weird for a humanoid to have the living construct subtype but that's how it works from what I can see). Living constructs have their own racial features that they retain even without the construct type but it's not clear which especially since some say "Unlike most constructs..." Of course it's up to the DM to decide how this works which might not work out for the OP.

[Wings of Peace]

I thought I saw regeneration mentioned somewhere so just in case it helps there's easier ways of getting regen + immunity. Just be troll blooded and gain the acid + fire subtypes from the Transformation rituals in savage species then LA buy them out. Or hell, don't LA buyout if you want, a little LA for damage immunity seems worth it.

[MorgromTheOrc]

Warforged Juggernaut has no bearing on your character's ability to not drown or suffocate in and of itself. The warforged's ability to not require breathing is due to his living construct traits, which he loses when he becomes a humanoid via the Incarnate Construct. Nothing about the Juggernaut class indicates that he doesn't need to breathe. He just grows some spikey shoulder pads and gains immunities.

I wasn't the one who said he couldn't suffocate I just said it would be hard to force down his head.

[MorgromTheOrc]

You also need to be careful about applying templates. Check page 293 of the Monster Manual:



Bolded for emphasis. Incarnate Construct is an Acquired template, Half-Dragon is an Inherited template. So the order they go in matters. You can still apply Half-Dragon to a construct, I think.

You would lose the abilities from incarnate construct that way, which is why it's not the straight up template its the classed version, although I did say I was considering the kobold as possibly having it instead if needed.

[MorgromTheOrc]

I thought I saw regeneration mentioned somewhere so just in case it helps there's easier ways of getting regen + immunity. Just be troll blooded and gain the acid + fire subtypes from the Transformation rituals in savage species then LA buy them out. Or hell, don't LA buyout if you want, a little LA for damage immunity seems worth it.

There's no point since the build already uses troll blooded and immunities to do this. But just in case what ways to gain these subtypes are you referring to?