Paladin/bard?

[LTwerewolf]

Is there an effective build for this? Right now I have a half-elf Paladin level 1 that I can level up to 2nd after this session. Stats are 16 str, 10 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 10 wis, and 16 cha.

[Naanomi]

Lore Bard 6 for Shillelagh (based on Charisma) springs to mind immediately

[CrusaderJoe]

Lore Bard 6 for Shillelagh (based on Charisma) springs to mind immediately

Paladin of Vengeance/Lore Bard is essentially geatalting Lore Bard with Valor Bard :smallbiggrin:

Shillelagh isn't needed, the PC has 16 strength already.

[Naanomi]

Shillelagh isn't needed, the PC has 16 strength already.
And (probably all) 4 of your feat picks will go into raising CHAand STR to 20? Or cut down the STR dependence mid level and pick up a few feats?

If going the STR route, shield mastery and athletics expertise might be something to get out of a bard dip

[CrusaderJoe]

And (probably all) 4 of your feat picks will go into raising CHAand STR to 20? Or cut down the STR dependence mid level and pick up a few feats?

If going the STR route, shield mastery and athletics expertise might be something to get out of a bard dip

You don't need 20 stats in this game, nice yes, but not actually needed.

This is a 3.5/4e gameist thought that applied then but does not apply now. Having 20 will be useful and nice but it isn't mandatory or necessary.

Having a 16 before level 10 is fine. Having an 18 afterwards is fine.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Is there an effective build for this? Right now I have a half-elf Paladin level 1 that I can level up to 2nd after this session. Stats are 16 str, 10 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 10 wis, and 16 cha.

Are you looking to be more Bard or Paladin? Because I've found the better multiclass routes entail picking majority of levels in one class, with a couple dip levels in one other. Vengeance + Valor would be cool, as would Devotion + Valor, or Ancients + Lore.

[LTwerewolf]

I could go for more of either class honestly. The personality of the character evolved in such a way that bard fluff fits him well, and thus far he has been the "tank" of the party (ac 18) and I assume the party would like me to continue to absorb the punishment.

If there was a way to more bard than paladin yet remain able to defend the party that would be great.

It's already been established that if he were going more into paladin he would be a vengeance paladin based on his actions.

Lore bard wouldn't fit his personality though. He's a country bumpkin that didn't really do none of that there book learnin.

[Person_Man]

My preferred mix is Oath of Ancients Paladin 7/Lore Bard 13. That gets you Fighting Style, Smite, Extra Attack, Cha to Saves Aura, and Resistance to Magic Aura. Then you get the superior Bard spellcasting progression and can cherry pick spells from any list to buff your damage or whatever you want.

Alternatively, you could go Paladin 2/Valor Bard 18, if you just want Fighting Style and Smite. That basically gives up nothing, though your Extra Attack and Bardic spellcasting would be delayed by 2 levels, which is a big deal for a mostly pure spellcaster build.

[Mandragola]

The big problem you have is that multiclassing as a paladin doesn't give you heavy armour - only medium. So with 10 dex you'll struggle for AC.

You could consider going fighter instead I suppose to grab a fighting style, action surge and an attack. But as paladin I think you're in trouble actually with that dex score.

[LTwerewolf]

The big problem you have is that multiclassing as a paladin doesn't give you heavy armour - only medium. So with 10 dex you'll struggle for AC.

You could consider going fighter instead I suppose to grab a fighting style, action surge and an attack. But as paladin I think you're in trouble actually with that dex score.

I am already a paladin, thus already have heavy armor. You don't lose proficiency by multiclassing.

[Mandragola]

Ignore me. I somehow got the idea you started as bard...

[Naanomi]

It's already been established that if he were going more into paladin he would be a vengeance paladin based on his actions.

Lore bard wouldn't fit his personality though.
Paladin and Valor bard give extra Attack which doesn't stack; so I'd work to avoid having Paladin 5 and Bard 6 at the same time if I could.

Paladin 3/Bard 17 would be reasonable; as would Paladin 15/Bard 5

[LTwerewolf]

Paladin and Valor bard give extra Attack which doesn't stack; so I'd work to avoid having Paladin 5 and Bard 6 at the same time if I could.

Paladin 3/Bard 17 would be reasonable; as would Paladin 15/Bard 5

I don't necessarily have to go into paladin 3, but he'll act kinda like it. I'm thinking the paladin 2 bard 18 thing that personman suggested is best for me.

[Naanomi]

You'd lose expertise, valor bard buffs, and one full tier of Multiclass spell progression with that route; and gain more aura range. Not the choice Id personally but opinions vary

[silveralen]

Paladin 6 bard 14 is really tempting to me for a few reasons.

1. Arguably the best paladin feature is the lvl 6 aura.

2. You don't delay your extra attack.

3. You can go lore bard, which is arguably the better choice in any case. You have early access to spell picks and more skills.

[LTwerewolf]

Lore bard doesn't fit, so that was vetoed.

[The_Hansard]

Lore bard doesn't fit, so that was vetoed.

I understand that your character is a simple farm boy and doesn't have any “book learnin” BUT if you delay gaining levels of bard for a while (and focus on paladin) that doesn't mean that he won't eventually start learning (or gain a taste for it). That's how characters grow.

Alternatively he could be a college of lore bard purely by oral traditions (think of those cultures that didn't have written languages). Maybe he's seen/talked to an important (or ancient) culture that has very few written works but a rich oral history. He might be the last person with that knowledge hence why he's invited to the college of lore (to preserve that knowldege/culture)

[goto124]

How much does your palabard sing? :P

[LTwerewolf]

How much does your palabard sing? :P

He doesn't, he tells jokes and plays the spoons.

[goto124]

I like your Spoony Palabard already. I saw he was more Paladin, so on the Lawful side I guess.

[LTwerewolf]

He's actually CN. He does what he needs to, his background is that he stole weapons from the lord of his town in order to fight bandits because the lord wouldn't get rid of them, so he's banished.

[silveralen]

Lore bard doesn't fit, so that was vetoed.

I didn't see that. If you dislike it for your character you can avoid it, though it feels like any type of bard could be of the less educated sort, as long as you don't take things like expertise in intelligence skills.

[CrusaderJoe]

If you are a paladin there is very little reason to go Valor Bard. The paladin is already a Valor Bard, just beefed up a bit.

Your Valor features focus around making you more martial.

3rd level: armor and shield profs that you already have.

3rd: Useful. How many levels of Bard you take is proportional to how useful this becomes. More inspiration (/day and die size) = more useful.

6th: Extra attack won't stack with the paladin's extra attack.


14: Very nice ability, Vicious Mockery + Weapon Attack is sweet. However you gave up a lot of paladin levels to get here

So if you want a Valor Bard you wither go level 14 or don't go at all.

Lore Bard can be refluffed to your hearts desire, if you want an effective Paladin Bard (which I take to mean at least 5-8 levels of both classes that don't give redundant abilities) that gives you useful things from both sides then Lore bard is the way to go.

You could always fluff your Bard abilities as coming from your god. I don't think that mechanically there is a difference between divine spells and arcane spells.

[lebefrei]

The mechanics have already been heavily addressed here, so I am a DM addressing the lore:

Being a "country bumpkin" does not preclude you from taking any class, ever. Only your background should indicate your past. You play your present and future.

If your character starts as a folk hero (perhaps, I don't know your background) he then solidifies that perceived heroism into training as a paladin. This is where you start playing.

Then, as he adventures and learns about the wide world, he realizes that there is so much more to see and do. He wonders at it all, at its very creation. This is his first step as a lore bard. See? It is that easy.

Now he learns to sing or recite those words, he keeps adventuring with the same spirit that made him a paladin, only he grows and learns as a bard as well. He has grown beyond his origin, something that is the stuff of great tales. We too often tie the future of our characters to their past.

Always keep in mind that games usually end well before level 20. I always advise players to make a 10 level plan with the assumption that this is the end goal, and people seem to enjoy their characters more that way.

[Sir cryosin]

He's a folk hero. He probably grow up hearing story about great hero's and that inspired him to stand up and fight for the people. So now that he is out in the world he seeks out lore on hero's of old and inspir to be just like them.

[Drackolus]

If your DM will let you grab hold of the "Classics Revisited" Unearthed Arcana, then you can try the blade. This is especially nice if you weren't planning on making that big of a dip, and it also lets you get two-weapon fighting, which can be fun on a paladin (IF you've already selected defensive). From the same book, you can also take the college of satire. You could be a jester paladin.

A jester paladin.

This is the best idea I've had all week.

[PotatoGolem]

Very fun build. I'm playing a OoA Paladin 7/ Bard 2 (aiming for Lore) right now and it's a blast. Bard gives you a bunch of fun little spells and supercharges your smite slot progression. Also, if you do a lot of RP/social/exploration encounters, having good skills really helps. You don't really need 20s in your stats- my 16 str has been fine so far.

[zeek0]

Also, Dex paladins are a real thing (I've played one). Use a rapier, and fluff your shield as a buckler. They have almost the same AC, and all the benefits of high dex to skills, saves, and ranged attacks. It could fit in well with your character stealing some weapons - depending on whether the theft was by stealth or force.

[Dimolyth]

I could go for more of either class honestly. The personality of the character evolved in such a way that bard fluff fits him well, and thus far he has been the "tank" of the party (ac 18) and I assume the party would like me to continue to absorb the punishment.

If there was a way to more bard than paladin yet remain able to defend the party that would be great.

It's already been established that if he were going more into paladin he would be a vengeance paladin based on his actions.

Lore bard wouldn't fit his personality though. He's a country bumpkin that didn't really do none of that there book learnin.

Lore bard doesn`t has to be a book worm. Lore bard can be a guy, who just doesn`t forget any of rumors or some other pieces of information, that he has been told once.
Lore bard is excellent choice for tank due to cutting words - using reaction to protect your allies (or even you) from succesfull attack or some damage.
Expertise in athletics and shield master feat are great for tanks.

But I would suggest to take 6 levels in paladin first - for extra attack and aura of protection. If you really want to be much more bard than pally - then paladin 2/ Valor Bard X. But the only advantage of valor bard - is just extra attack feature.

[choryukami]

Lore bard doesn`t has to be a book worm. Lore bard can be a guy, who just doesn`t forget any of rumors or some other pieces of information, that he has been told once.
Lore bard is excellent choice for tank due to cutting words - using reaction to protect your allies (or even you) from succesfull attack or some damage.
Expertise in athletics and shield master feat are great for tanks.

But I would suggest to take 6 levels in paladin first - for extra attack and aura of protection. If you really want to be much more bard than pally - then paladin 2/ Valor Bard X. But the only advantage of valor bard - is just extra attack feature.

Absolutely! Cutting Words is powerful, as is magical secrets. I second paladin 6 (or 7 if ancients), bard X.

[Socko525]

I've played a half-elf OoA paladin 12/lore bard 8, and I was a big fan. I progressed through to 11 to get improved divine smite (went to 12 for the ASI/feat). The 8 levels of bard got me improved bard spell progression, a d8 inspiration die, 4th level bard spells, skills, jack of all trades, etc. and all of my ASI's/feats.

I suppose you could go OoA 11/lore bard 9 and that would get you Improved song of rest and 5th level bard spells which would give you some great spell options in animate objects, mass healing word, raise dead, etc.

[ChildofLuthic]

I've played a half-elf OoA paladin 12/lore bard 8, and I was a big fan. I progressed through to 11 to get improved divine smite (went to 12 for the ASI/feat). The 8 levels of bard got me improved bard spell progression, a d8 inspiration die, 4th level bard spells, skills, jack of all trades, etc. and all of my ASI's/feats.

I suppose you could go OoA 11/lore bard 9 and that would get you Improved song of rest and 5th level bard spells which would give you some great spell options in animate objects, mass healing word, raise dead, etc.

Omg i have a paladin i want to do this with. Really fighting myself over whether to go 11/9 or 12/8 but honestly it's not going to matter for a while.

[JAL_1138]

I'm (overly) fond of Paladin 2/Valor X. Gets 9th-level spells and doesn't lose the two Bard 18 Magical Secrets picks like you would from going up to Paladin 3. But, granted, you lose out on most of the feel of a Paladin that way; it's pretty much just a more melee-capable Valor Bard (with a slight delay in learning spells). May not be quite what you're looking for.

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Well, if you allow Unearthed Arcana Treachery Paladin/ Whispers Bard is a good thematic match, with lots of potential damage boosts.

[djreynolds]

Is there an effective build for this? Right now I have a half-elf Paladin level 1 that I can level up to 2nd after this session. Stats are 16 str, 10 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 10 wis, and 16 cha.

I like shillelagh, its only a cantrip, so it costs nothing. But there are much better weapons out there.

You need to decide either S&B/shield master or 1 big weapon.

Depending on your bard spell selection, the S&B may require war caster

Bard at 3rd... expertise in athletics. Coupled with shield master. Awesome

I would stay paladin till 6th level. I prefer devotion over vengeance. For me it allows you to leave strength at 16 for a time and max out charisma. Aura of devotion is nice at 7th level

But OoV has AWESOME spells and vow of enmity is a BA... it is a toss up between these 2 Oaths

I like either PAM 12 paladin/8 bard

S&B 8 paladin/ 12 bard... but aura of courage at 10th is really good and may be better than counter charm

I like resilient con, but with aura of protection and possibly war caster, it "should" cover you.

You will only get 5 ASI... 2 should go to charisma for spells and saves. That leaves 2 feats. GWM/PAM/shield master are all good and so is war caster. I might leave strength at 16-18.

[Arkhios]

Which bard options are available for your game?

And why exactly wouldn't lore bard "fit"?

Is it because they're depicted as the more bookish type? You can always play against a stereotype, just saying.

If only official Bard Colleges are allowed, Valor Bard is less optimal with a level 5+ paladin because you don't get much new from it, and duplicate proficiencies and Extra Attack are wasted on you.

Joker paladin works well as an Oath of the Ancients paladin, as they favor art, laughter, and joy in life, everything a bard dip brings in. Lore bard would be ideal combination in many more ways beyond just the access to spells. Cutting Words could be seen as sarcastic jokes, for example, but also because everything you get from the sub-class is new to you from paladin-perspective.

I would honestly recommend reconsidering Lore College and looking past the stereotype.


If however Unearthed Arcana is allowed, the Jester might work too.

[Citan]

Is there an effective build for this? Right now I have a half-elf Paladin level 1 that I can level up to 2nd after this session. Stats are 16 str, 10 dex, 14 con, 8 int, 10 wis, and 16 cha.


Lore Bard 6 for Shillelagh (based on Charisma) springs to mind immediately


Paladin of Vengeance/Lore Bard is essentially geatalting Lore Bard with Valor Bard :smallbiggrin:

Shillelagh isn't needed, the PC has 16 strength already.


You don't need 20 stats in this game, nice yes, but not actually needed.

This is a 3.5/4e gameist thought that applied then but does not apply now. Having 20 will be useful and nice but it isn't mandatory or necessary.

Having a 16 before level 10 is fine. Having an 18 afterwards is fine.
I'd nuance your point... It really depends on classes.
For a Wizard which has usually little to do other than casting, and with so many things depending on his casting stat (DC on a limited resource, number of spell prepared) having a few more points and spells prepared is important.
On a caster that would rarely use save or suck spell, with only spells "known" it would indeed be lesser important.
On a martial that has several other ways to enhance weapon attack than just bumping STR/DEX, it is lesser important.

For OP, Charisma is actually more important for the multiclass than it arguably would for either"as a pure": CHA affects Paladin and Bard DC, number of Bardic Inspiration, number of Paladin spells, potency of Aura of Protection, Cleansing Touch...

It just means too much to get less than 20 as fast as possible!
That is why Shillelagh may be a good workaround so that OP can be efficient fast and still have some freedom to pick feats.
It is indeed restrictive though, since it means no GWM build.

My usual suggestions are Paladin 9 / Lore Bard 11, Paladin 11 / Lore Bard 9 or Paladin 6-7 / Lore Bard 14: first very balanced, second more martial (Extra Attack), third more caster.
With Shillelagh, you can make a very solid "controller" build with a quarterstaff and shield (Shield Master) or alone (Polearm Master).

EDIT: Just catched up other posts...
So Paladin 2/ Valor Bard 18 works very well too. Arguably the best build when/if you reach level 20, because 30 feet range on auras means you are now actually protecting most of your party, and not only one-two pals.
If you feel like a Vengeance Paladin though, I'd still think Paladin 6 / Lore Bard 14 would be the best.
You can continue Paladin at least up to 5, or 6, then start Bard up to 6, then finish however you want.
Either Shillelagh way or GWM would work good here. ;)

[nmitchell2]

Paladin 6/Bard 14 is my first instinct, grab Extra Attack and Aura of Protection then jump into Bard, you finish with a 9th level slot and Magical Secrets can allow you to pick up a spell to use it with. If you're only going to 10, Paladin 2/Bard 8 is my first thought. Looking deeper though, there are many options.

Paladin 2/Valour Bard 18 is a good option with delayed Extra Attack (3 levels later than other martials, ouch) but you finish with 9th level spells and really spike at lvl16 when you get to attack and cast in the same turn.
Crown Paladin 6/Lore Bard 14 is great for a tanky character with plenty of heals and debuffs, Cutting Words is great because you don't spend spell slots to use it and it leads to so many Spidey-esque quotes to really liven up any table. This route probably wants you to go SwB.

I haven't looked up the abilities of the College of Satire, but a court jester sounds hilarious to roleplay. Wisecracks, farts at the most inopportune times, an excuse for the nat1s on the Acrobatics checks (it was deliberate for your amusement, no really) would be so funny, especially when playing a Paladin.

[Specter]

Paladin 6/Lore Bard 14 is as good as it gets. Extra Attack, Aura of Protection, Bardic Inspiration, Expertise, 6 spells from any class, smites like hell, 9th-level spell slots, 7th-level spells known... life is good.