Should I give a LA for true mind switch?

[gogogome]

This is what happened.
1. A level 17 wizard greater planar binded a Pit Fiend
2. He cast limited wish Geas/Quest on the Pit Fiend to prevent him from using his at-will magic circle against good.
3. He cast dominate monster (took him 3 days to succeed) and then broke the circle.
4. He bought a power stone of True Mind Switch for 53,825gp
5. With one rank of use psionic devices, moment of prescience, and greater heroism he used the power stone on the pit fiend.
6. He killed the the dominated pit fiend in his body and lost a level.

Half Golems are LA:- and all they give is a couple of physical stat boosts, but this wizard, he's got a permanent +31 to STR, and +13 to Dex and Con, in addition to an ungodly amount of other bonuses, like regeneration, damage reduction, immunity to fire and poison, anything that isn't listed as a Su or SLA.

Should I make up an LA? It's gonna be like +20.

[SimonMoon6]

Should I make up an LA? It's gonna be like +20.

I'd say no. But then I like true mindswitch.

Wizards are crazy powerful. This is just another example of such.

And of course, what's good for the goose... How about having an awakened goldfish psion use true mindswitch on the wizard?

And don't forget the disadvantages. (1) He's now extraplanar. He can be easily banished back to hell. And other pit fiends there may not be too happy with him. (2) He detects as evil, so paladins would attack him. (3) He looks like a demon, so most people would run from him (though that's easy to fix).

[Psyren]

Tell him "congratulations, you won D&D; now unless you want Asmodeus to start looking for one of his missing Pit Fiends, how about we agree this never happened and get on with the game?"

[OldTrees1]

1) Consider the rest of the party. Did true mind switch make this wizard jump levels worth of power ahead of his peers? (Was he already levels worth of power ahead of his peers?)

2) Consider encounters. How difficult is a supposedly medium CR encounter now?

At my table, this would have been so OP of a move that I would use Psyren's solution or retire the character.

[Frostthehero]

Why does Geas prevent the pit fiend from using circle against good?

[Troacctid]

He's level 17. He's playing around with 9th level spells. What did you expect? This is how high levels work.

That said, I would apply a level adjustment for the sake of consistency. If he had picked a form with a listed LA, he would inherit that, so it doesn't make sense to let him off for free here.

[Anxe]

I would bring in the Sanity score rules myself. Or taint.

[Jack_Simth]

This is what happened.
1. A level 17 wizard greater planar binded a Pit Fiend
2. He cast limited wish Geas/Quest on the Pit Fiend to prevent him from using his at-will magic circle against good.
3. He cast dominate monster (took him 3 days to succeed) and then broke the circle.
4. He bought a power stone of True Mind Switch for 53,825gp
5. With one rank of use psionic devices, moment of prescience, and greater heroism he used the power stone on the pit fiend.
6. He killed the the dominated pit fiend in his body and lost a level.

Half Golems are LA:- and all they give is a couple of physical stat boosts, but this wizard, he's got a permanent +31 to STR, and +13 to Dex and Con, in addition to an ungodly amount of other bonuses, like regeneration, damage reduction, immunity to fire and poison, anything that isn't listed as a Su or SLA.

Should I make up an LA? It's gonna be like +20.

Ignoring that Steps 2 and 5 are not properly rules-legal (2: Geas/Quest forces the target to follow a particular course of action - not abstain from one; 5: Moment of Prescience doesn't apply to all skill checks, just opposed ones; obviously suicidal orders - which should include deliberately failing a save vs. a spell - grant an extra save to ignore the order... which pretty much means the Pit Fiend would have saved against the DC 21 powerstone with ease, not to mention shrugging it off via spell resistance under transparency).

But yes, Psyren's approach of simply saying that it's too strong for my table and thus never happened, or OldTrees1's suggestion of retiring the character, are both quite sound approaches.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

RAW he does not gain any LA or RHD of the body he stole, but the Pit Fiend's associates and enemies may come looking for the PC mistaking him for their intended target.

Make an imp show up making demands of the character on behalf of its master, something about souls and late payments. "YOU! The master is displeased! You didn't deliver the souls and now the master's legion is too few in number! MASTER IS LOSING HIS BATTLES! You know who comes to find you if the master won't protect you any more...." *poofs away*

A few days later, a level 21 Cambion bounty hunter with Multispell shows up and does the following: Casts Assay Spell Resistance (swift), casts Rod of Quickened Extended Delayed (1 round) Dimensional Anchor (swift, triggers Contingent True Strike), casts Banishment presenting ten items specific to the Pit Fiend's instinctual predispositions that add +2 DC each. He then teleports away immediately after, leaving the PC on the Pit Fiend's home plane with a Dimensional Anchor on him and powerful former allies of the body he stole out to find him.

He may be trying to powergame, but all he's really done is given you a spectacular opportunity to screw his character over.

[Troacctid]

2: Geas/Quest forces the target to follow a particular course of action - not abstain from one

Nah, that step is fine. Geas explicitly allows you to force the target to "refrain from some action or course of activity". Although if the magic circle is already up, I suppose you could argue that it blocks the geas?

[gogogome]

This move doesn't make the other players in the character less strong. The wizard is still limited by his action economy, and he doesn't run out of spells before the end of the day, so his newfound melee-ability is never used.

What this move does do is make him invincible. Anything I throw at him he laughs it off but the rest of the party is struggling to survive.

So overall, party is indifferent to the wizard's devil status because he doesn't take their job away, but it's the first time I've encountered an "invicible PC". So I thought the least I could do is keep him at level 16 forever with the LA.

Thanks for pointing out my flawed ruling of moment of prescience. I'll just force him to retrain his skills if he wants a higher use psionic device.


Although if the magic circle is already up, I suppose you could argue that it blocks the geas?

I had a discussion about this with the group and honestly, I don't think the spell protects the trapped creature.

I'll redo the whole scenario with the correct moment of prescience ruling, and if the player still wishes to go through with it, I guess I'll let him play just to experience DMing against such a strong character...

If I were to give him an LA, how much would you suggest? I chose +20 because it's the pit fiend's CR.

Biffoniacus_Furiou gave me an idea. I don't think some bounty hunter will come and get a pit fiend since pit fiends are 2nd highest rank (1st highest is archdevil), and I don't think the devils can be fooled that the wizard is the original pit fiend. But I do believe the devils will approach the wizard. A pit fiend would contact the wizard personally and... somehow set him on the path to damnation. Hmm... this could be fun! Too bad I'm not a devil irl. Don't have the faintest idea how to setup a 100year plan of damnation...

Oh and the player isn't trying to power game. He's been using devils and demons the entire campaign so I think this move fits his character roleplay wise, which is why I don't want to take it away from him. He could of easily gated in a 34hd extraplanar creature, but instead stuck with the 18hd outsider.


I would bring in the Sanity score rules myself. Or taint.

Could you explain this? This is the first time I've heard of this.

Susceptibility to banish gives me some ideas... but honestly it's no different than any other save-or-die. He keeps spell turning on him 24/7 because he's scared of finger of death (we don't have a cleric in the party).

But I agree, if he's banished, character retires because he'll probably be tortured and demoted to a lemur since he's not lawful evil. If he was lawful evil then things could be different.

[Sam K]

(2) He detects as evil, so paladins would attack him.

A severe problem indeed for a lvl 17 wizard with all the abilities of a pit fiend!

[Psyren]

Oh and the player isn't trying to power game. He's been using devils and demons the entire campaign so I think this move fits his character roleplay wise, which is why I don't want to take it away from him. He could of easily gated in a 34hd extraplanar creature, but instead stuck with the 18hd outsider.

It honestly doesn't matter if it's "in character" for him - from a metagame standpoint, he is impacting the rest of the table because he is too strong for you to challenge without wiping the others out, and from an in-universe standpoint, there is most certainly a good reason why no other spellcaster/psion has tried using this technique of wearing a powerful fiend like a suit of armor before. Your job, if you want to keep this all "in-game" is to find that reason.

[Troacctid]

I'd probably put Pit Fiends at roughly +9 LA. They're a bit stronger than a Trumpet Archon or Astral Deva, and those are +8.

[Crake]

I'd probably put Pit Fiends at roughly +9 LA. They're a bit stronger than a Trumpet Archon or Astral Deva, and those are +8.

Pit "A bit stronger than an astral deva" Fiend. That's a new one, last a checked a pit fiend would mop the floor with an astral deva.

Honestly, based on the way mind switch works, I'm not actually sure I'd allow it to work on creatures without a dual nature. By this I mean creatures like outsiders and elementals who's body and soul are one and the same. If you ruled it did work, then the pit fiend body it left behind would be a purely superficial one, and it could just shed itself of it's mortal body (by commiting suicide, since it's basically just possessing an empty shell of a body) and descending to hell. It still has the same soul, and for devils, soul and body are one, so he would thus still be a pit fiend. From there he would definitely plot his revenge.

Worst case scenario, he still has his SLAs, so he uses is 1/year wish to undo the mind switch, or at the very least restore him to his former body.

That's likely when he gets one of his wizard minions to bind the guy who mind switched him, as he is now perfectly bindable.

[Bad Wolf]

1) Congratulate him on his new body.

2) An order of epic level LG clerics heard rumors of a Pit Fiend wandering the Material Plane. They find him, and Holy Word him so hard he's a stain on his team mates.

[Lord Vukodlak]

The best course of action is to simply not allow true mind switch at all. Its simply to easy to abuse. Even if you weigh down the PC with the Pit Fiend's infernal responsibilities he just usurped or pull something with the dual nature not allowing mind switch to work.

There are other grossly overpowered bodies he could make as a target instead

[Feint's End]

Seems like he worked hard for it so I'm gonna go against some posters here and say you should allow it ... partially.

Let him know that what he is now is beyond any reasonable optimisation on your table. What I'd do is try to find some sort of new template which gives the feel of a pit fiend without being just as big. Flavour it as the essence of the pit fiend fusing with his body. Reduce size to medium, make him extraplanar (native), remove most immunities, etc. Maybe leave a good natural armor bonus and something like dr 5 / good

Then allow him to just use it without la ... will it increase "power"? Yes. However he won't be a better wizard. Just some better bodily attributes and it won't affect combat that much.

I think this would be rather elegant because you don't have to worry about his power and he has his cool demon flavour.

[Flickerdart]

When a druid wildshapes into a beefy monster and gets huge stats bonuses, do you put an LA on that too?

[LoyalPaladin]

I'd probably put Pit Fiends at roughly +9 LA. They're a bit stronger than a Trumpet Archon or Astral Deva, and those are +8.
I've always wondered if Solars fall under +8 as well. I could never seem to find their LA.

[Psyren]

When a druid wildshapes into a beefy monster and gets huge stats bonuses, do you put an LA on that too?

This is hardly comparable - for one, wild shape doesn't change the creature's type, while this does. A wild-shaped humanoid druid is still vulnerable to things that target humanoids. Wild Shape can also be suppressed in an AMF, while TMS cannot be because it's instantaneous. No Wild Shape form I know of grants at-will greater teleport/PWS, regeneration, immunities, effectively DR 15/- to most things a good party would fight, see through magical darkness, 1/year wish and many other pit fiend goodies.

[Flickerdart]

This is hardly comparable - for one, wild shape doesn't change the creature's type, while this does. A wild-shaped humanoid druid is still vulnerable to things that target humanoids. Wild Shape can also be suppressed in an AMF, while TMS cannot be because it's instantaneous. No Wild Shape form I know of grants at-will greater teleport/PWS, regeneration, immunities, effectively DR 15/- to most things a good party would fight, see through magical darkness, 1/year wish and many other pit fiend goodies.
It's the same principle - a class feature used for its intended purpose.

[Psyren]

It's the same principle - a class feature used for its intended purpose.

True Mind Switch is not a class feature, it is one poorly-balanced power that gets exponentially worse when added to a character who can Gate in any vessel it wants from across the length and breadth of the entire edition. Note that Telepaths do not get Gate and Wizards do not get TMS; to claim this combination was "intended" is disingenuous in the extreme.

[Flickerdart]

True Mind Switch is not a class feature, it is one poorly-balanced power that gets exponentially worse when added to a character who can Gate in any vessel it wants from across the length and breadth of the entire edition. Note that Telepaths do not get Gate and Wizards do not get TMS; to claim this combination was "intended" is disingenuous in the extreme.
It's not like he used some kind of exploit or obscure content. A Telepath could dip 1 level of wizard, or a wizard could dip 1 level of psion, and get the whole thing working without even using UMD...or a Telepath could just plane shift to the Lower Planes and beat up fiends until a balor showed up, then mind control it the normal way. "Length and breadth of the entire edition"? Balors are in the first MM.

[Rubik]

When a druid wildshapes into a beefy monster and gets huge stats bonuses, do you put an LA on that too?How about Shapechange? Sure, pit fiends are pretty strong, but the Shapechange spell is stronger, since it lets you use the perfect form for any job, and some are more powerful in certain situations than pit fiends are. Things like fluid immunities, chosen as needed.

At level 17, being a pit fiend is strong, but it's certainly not the strongest thing a wizard can do using his spells.

I'd suggest to the party that they buff themselves up to (approximately) his level, just so it's easier to run the game.

[Crake]

This is hardly comparable - for one, wild shape doesn't change the creature's type, while this does. A wild-shaped humanoid druid is still vulnerable to things that target humanoids. Wild Shape can also be suppressed in an AMF, while TMS cannot be because it's instantaneous. No Wild Shape form I know of grants at-will greater teleport/PWS, regeneration, immunities, effectively DR 15/- to most things a good party would fight, see through magical darkness, 1/year wish and many other pit fiend goodies.

Actually, mind switch does not grant you the SLAs of the form. Both creatures maintain their own SLAs and supernatural abilities (except those relying on your body, like breath weapons etc etc), meaning that pit fiend still has all those goodies to use.

[Psyren]

It's not like he used some kind of exploit or obscure content. A Telepath could dip 1 level of wizard, or a wizard could dip 1 level of psion, and get the whole thing working without even using UMD...or a Telepath could just plane shift to the Lower Planes and beat up fiends until a balor showed up, then mind control it the normal way. "Length and breadth of the entire edition"? Balors are in the first MM.

A 1-level dip for dual-9s is not the level of optimization most tables are equipped to deal with; accordingly it's not something the average DM needs to worry about (beyond saying "no" if it comes up with a clear conscience.)


How about Shapechange? Sure, pit fiends are pretty strong, but the Shapechange spell is stronger, since it lets you use the perfect form for any job, and some are more powerful in certain situations than pit fiends are. Things like fluid immunities, chosen as needed.

At level 17, being a pit fiend is strong, but it's certainly not the strongest thing a wizard can do using his spells.

I'd suggest to the party that they buff themselves up to (approximately) his level, just so it's easier to run the game.

Shapechange can be dispelled, disjoined or suppressed, so it's possible to deal with a shapechanging caster without hosing the rest of the party. There is no similar way to turn off TMS.


Actually, mind switch does not grant you the SLAs of the form. Both creatures maintain their own SLAs and supernatural abilities (except those relying on your body, like breath weapons etc etc), meaning that pit fiend still has all those goodies to use.

Good point, but that still leaves a raft of immunities and resistances to deal with on top of the 17th-level casting and that appears to be the DM's issue here, none of which can be disabled.

[Rubik]

Shapechange can be dispelled, disjoined or suppressed, so it's possible to deal with a shapechanging caster without hosing the rest of the party. There is no similar way to turn off TMS.There are plenty of ways to become immune to any way of suppressing, dispelling, and disjoining spell effects, from Initiate of Mystra (requires a cleric dip, but it's thematically appropriate, given a wizard's likely adoration of magic itself) to spell blades of (Greater) Dispel Magic and Reaving Dispel to Contingency (Celerity) in order to teleport away from a Disjunction to supernatural spell. Yes, it takes some setup, but Shapechange is still more powerful. It can last all day with little to-do, and it's not hard to get multiple castings if it IS negated somehow.

And there are ways to negate TMS, such as Polymorph Any Object + Bestow Curse (to prevent actively finding a cure) or death + Reincarnate or further uses of TMS.

17th level wizards are ridiculously powerful. TMS isn't making him a better wizard; it's just giving him a physical buff he could've had using PAO anyway. And PAO is MORE powerful, since it boosts one's Int score, to boot.

[Flickerdart]

A 1-level dip for dual-9s is not the level of optimization most tables are equipped to deal with; accordingly it's not something the average DM needs to worry about (beyond saying "no" if it comes up with a clear conscience.)

Dual nines? What? No, I mean he takes a level and then buys the power stone or scroll.

[Psyren]

See, and I'm fine with him expending those resources (specific items, specific buffs, specific feats etc.) to attempt to counter dispels/disjunction. At least then he has to put forth some effort, and a smart DM can still beat them all without being forced to resort to fiat. With TMS the player doesn't need any resources or thought at all, just one and done. There is no counterplay there, no interesting scenarios or choices come out of it; it's just something every caster would do, and why not?

- A contingency to pull him out of reach can be exploited to place him in harm's way, interfere with his tactics or remove him from the fight entirely, as well as being itself subject to dispels or disjoins.
- Spellblades are not only setting-specific, but they only protect the wielder and not themselves - you can target them directly and remove that protection. They also won't stop area spells, so disjunction is still viable, and they can be disarmed or sundered or other measures too since they must be wielded to work.
- Cheater Initiate of Mystra is even more setting-specific, plus the initiate feats have roleplay requirements so not just anyone can take them on every character concept, and they require diluting your build with a 3-level cleric dip.
- Shapechange must indeed be recast if it is removed, requiring more resources from the caster - another time stop, another use of the major quicken rod, another 9th slot etc.
- Death + Reincarnate requires the DM to construct the table if it is nonstandard, and you could get all kinds of results from that, etc.

All of these result in interactivity on both sides of the DM screen, rather than one side declaring "I win D&D" while the other declares "houserule."

EDIT:


Dual nines? What? No, I mean he takes a level and then buys the power stone or scroll.

Which requires the DM making it available in the world for purchase, putting the onus back where it belongs.

[Flickerdart]

Which requires the DM making it available in the world for purchase, putting the onus back where it belongs.
In the original scenario, the wizard bought the power stone. It's not a newly introduced variable. Forcing LA onto the player because the DM decided to make the item available is still not the right course of action.

[Feint's End]

In the original scenario, the wizard bought the power stone. It's not a newly introduced variable. Forcing LA onto the player because the DM decided to make the item available is still not the right course of action.

I agree with Flickerdart here. It's not above what some of us consider high op and certainly not as bad as some other combinations out there.

I do however think it is beyond normal levels of optimisation and especially acceptable levels at this table. Therefor I propose finding a way to retain the flavour without the power.

[Psyren]

In the original scenario, the wizard bought the power stone. It's not a newly introduced variable. Forcing LA onto the player because the DM decided to make the item available is still not the right course of action.

And this I totally agree with. I was speaking in terms of a general player that somehow got both TMS and a calling spell. But yes, I agree that making a scroll/stone of this power was a mistake, as it is for 9ths in general.

But you'll note that "forcing LA on the character" was never a solution I advocated for. From the start my suggestion was "roll this back so it never happened." And of course the DM should apologize to the player for messing up the table balance and having to impact their character to bring things back in line.

[Rubik]

This is an odd case where I don't think TMS would work as the power indicates it otherwise would. Non-native outsiders' minds and souls ARE their bodies. So how does TMS work? Your mind and soul are transplanted into the pit fiend, and the pit fiend's mind and soul (and thus, body) are transplanted into your body. So you are controlling the pit fiend which is controlling your body. So you're possessing a creature possessing your body.

...How does that work?

[Psyren]

An outsider's soul is their body, yes, but strictly speaking the mind is neither. (Also, magic jar works on outsiders so... I guess it gets even weirder?)

Personally I would say that you get inside the soul-body, but since you can't separate the two for an outsider you slowly get corrupted while you're inside. Stay in there too long and you risk becoming an NPC. That would explain why no other spellcasters (well, no sane ones) have tried this.

[Segev]

Consider that he'd be even more powerful if he'd skipped all but the "bind a Pit Fiend" step. He'd have all the powers of a pit fiend minion and his own actions to boot.

There already are plenty of ways to be practically invincible as a level 17 wizard.

This is not nearly the most powerful; he's not exactly subtle, and at this level having foes who know what to prepare for is not unreasonable. Have things that can pierce his DR and bypass his elemental immunities. If he's not CE, himself, he may be vulnerable to more alignment-based effects than normal, as well, since he now has Chaotic and Evil as subtypes on top of whatever his normal alignment is.

He didn't get the hp/HD of the monster, so those are still his own.


Also, are we sure TMS gets you SLAs?

[Rubik]

Consider that he'd be even more powerful if he'd skipped all but the "bind a Pit Fiend" step. He'd have all the powers of a pit fiend minion and his own actions to boot.

There already are plenty of ways to be practically invincible as a level 17 wizard.

This is not nearly the most powerful; he's not exactly subtle, and at this level having foes who know what to prepare for is not unreasonable. Have things that can pierce his DR and bypass his elemental immunities. If he's not CE, himself, he may be vulnerable to more alignment-based effects than normal, as well, since he now has Chaotic and Evil as subtypes on top of whatever his normal alignment is.

He didn't get the hp/HD of the monster, so those are still his own.Well, he could always use Alter Self to become something else that doesn't normally ping on any given spellcaster's Evildar. Outsiders are all over the place in terms of appearance and alignment, after all.


Also, are we sure TMS gets you SLAs?You explicitly don't get them.

-You gain the type of your assumed body.
-You gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of your assumed body.
-You gain the natural armor, natural attacks, movement, and other simple physical characteristics of your assumed body.
-You gain the extraordinary special attacks and qualities of your assumed body, but you do not gain supernatural or spell-like abilities.
-You gain the possessions and equipment of your assumed body.
-You retain your own hit points, saving throws (possibly modified by new ability scores), class abilities, supernatural and spell-like abilities, spells and powers, and skills and feats (although skill checks use your new ability scores, and you may be temporarily unable to use feats whose requirements you do not meet in your new body).
-Supernatural abilities that require a certain body part may be unavailable in your new form.

[Psyren]

Indeed, there are non-aligned outsiders that can easily be just as troublesome. Better to ban TMS altogether.

Crake pointed out the SLA thing in post #26.

[Prime32]

An outsider's soul is their body, yes, but strictly speaking the mind is neither. (Also, magic jar works on outsiders so... I guess it gets even weirder?)

Personally I would say that you get inside the soul-body, but since you can't separate the two for an outsider you slowly get corrupted while you're inside. Stay in there too long and you risk becoming an NPC. That would explain why no other spellcasters (well, no sane ones) have tried this.Sounds about right. Heck, I'd say he doesn't just become corrupted, his personality and memories are completely overwritten by the original devil's... except that the pit fiend now has 17th-level wizard casting. Worse, it also has human free will, meaning it is no longer bound by the Pact Primordial. :smalleek: Normally a devil requires months of temptation to harvest a single mortal soul, but this abomination can just teleport into a city and inhale a thousand in a single night. Every night. This kind of mortal-devil fusion has happened once before... and its name was Asmodeus.

If you want to roll with this, take a leaf out of the rules for lycanthropy. The pit fiend starts taking over the wizard's body while he sleeps and teleporting off to harvest souls. Eventually the wizard starts having blackouts and waking up with fewer spell slots than he had before. Soon he learns that a strange monster has been wiping out entire cities, and some his closest friends and family (outside the party) have been killed. Following the trail eventually leads to... himself.

The souls of the wizard's friends are still intact within the fiend, but before long both he and they will be consumed, and a new godling will be leased upon the world. Merely killing himself is no longer an option due to devils' ability to reform themselves in Hell. Instead he must perform a ritual that uses concentrated arcane and divine energies to split himself into two beings - the wizard's personality becomes a tall humanoid with armored red skin but no obvious fiendish traits, while the devil's becomes a spectral pit fiend covered in faces that scream in the voices of its victims. Defeating the devil frees its trapped souls, but the remains of its spirit must be bound into magic items, transforming them into artefacts. Artefacts which have no downsides, and just so happen to boost the strength of the wizard's partymates just enough to match his new purified form. :smallwink:

[Crake]

This is an odd case where I don't think TMS would work as the power indicates it otherwise would. Non-native outsiders' minds and souls ARE their bodies. So how does TMS work? Your mind and soul are transplanted into the pit fiend, and the pit fiend's mind and soul (and thus, body) are transplanted into your body. So you are controlling the pit fiend which is controlling your body. So you're possessing a creature possessing your body.

...How does that work?


An outsider's soul is their body, yes, but strictly speaking the mind is neither. (Also, magic jar works on outsiders so... I guess it gets even weirder?)

Personally I would say that you get inside the soul-body, but since you can't separate the two for an outsider you slowly get corrupted while you're inside. Stay in there too long and you risk becoming an NPC. That would explain why no other spellcasters (well, no sane ones) have tried this.

I brought this up earlier too. Mind switch actually explicitly calls out the soul being transfered with the mind, so the lack of a dual nature still poses a problem. I outlined in my post that if it did work, the pit fiend would still be a pit fiend, merely one possessing your old body. All he would have to do is shed his mortal body to return to his normal form. Which would then pose the problem of where did the other pit fiend body go.

[Andion Isurand]

Assuming that Change Shape as a supernatural ability, is tied to a given creature's body, I would look for creatures with that can use that ability to assume humanoid forms without losing physical stats, or natural armor, etc. That way you can get along in society by using an effect like cloak of khyber (Dragon 337) to keep divinations like true seeing from allowing one to perceive your true form.

List of 3.5 Critters with Change Shape (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372124-List-of-3-5-Critters-with-Change-Shape)

[Roga]

That is beautiful Prime32. I want to play in your game. :-)