E6 Tome of Battle

[TIPOT]

In a few weeks some friends and I will be starting a brand new shiny E6 campaign. I'm going to be playing a wizard starting at level 2 and the party will be:
-Me
-A Mystic ranger
-A Dragon Shaman
-A swashbuckler/rogue

and finally the character our dm has a problem with, a crusader.

He argues that he should go with a paladin or a fighter and that a crusader will overshadow the rest of the party in E6. He doesn't especially like Tome of battle, but I can't feel he has a point. It isn't until post 6 that the casters become so dominant that ToB is truly needed. At low levels warblade and crusader are pretty much the strongest classes by a fair margin. I'd consider fighter or barbarian to be stronger than a wizard or sorcerer at low levels. ToB classes have all there strengths and more. They do the most damage, are the tankiest and have so much general utility it becomes hard to balance.

So what do people think, is tome of battle too strong for low leveled games? Or am I missing something?

[Greenish]

Depends on how OP-savvy the group is. ToB has relatively high floor and does shine on low levels, so it may cause problems in low level low OP campaign.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Wait, the DM has a mystic ranger in the group and is worried about the crusader. Oi.

[DarkSonic1337]

Waiting on Sword of the Arcane Order Mystic Ranger to overshadow everyone.

[Greenish]

Wait, the DM has a mystic ranger in the group and is worried about the crusader. Oi.Well, if it's just ranger spells it's not that bad, though it does seem like out of line with Dragon Shaman and Swash/Rogue.

[Callin]

I disagree, I feel that it would work fine in the group. He brings a small amount of healing either by Stance or Maneuver along with a few defensive and offensive tricks that should they show up at the right time could turn the tide in a battle. Yea they can put off a point or two of damage for a round and gain an increase to hit and damage but I dont feel that it will be OP.

I mean you got a Mystic Ranger and a Wizard... also a Dragon Shaman. Yall are all over the tier list. A solid 3 here evens it out nicely and will give the Swashbuckler Rogue a flanking buddy who can actually handle being in the front lines.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Seriously, a Mystic Ranger with the Wildshape variant and Sword of the Arcane Order is basically the gold standard for powerful characters in E6. Throw on Trap Expert and he's a one-man party.

A Crusader may be tanky and decent at dealing single-hit damage, along with a bit of healing, but if the rest of the party knows what they're doing it should be fine.

The Dragon Shaman may be better off switching to Dragonfire Adept, it's just overall better at doing stuff. There are even feats in Dragon Magic that do the same thing as the Dragon Shaman's auras. He can pick long duration buff invocations and use armor and a (tower) shield without proficiency, and he won't be making any attack rolls or worrying about spell failure so the drawbacks won't even be relevant. Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon will make him exceptionally more useful.

The Swashbuckler/Rogue should consider switching to a single-classed Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Fighter, especially since the E6 Fighter capstone will allow him to get Melee Weapon Mastery and Improved Critical. If the group is worried about traps, the Ranger can get the Trap Expert ACF from Dungeonscape.

As an E6 Wizard, I would actually consider going Beguiler 1/ Wizard 5, include Able Learner and use Versatile Spellcaster to gain spontaneous access to all of your 1st and 2nd level Wizard spells. You'll have tons of Color Sprays in the early levels and you'll still get plenty of 3rd level spells as a (focused) specialist.

[TIPOT]

Wait, the DM has a mystic ranger in the group and is worried about the crusader. Oi.


Waiting on Sword of the Arcane Order Mystic Ranger to overshadow everyone.


Seriously, a Mystic Ranger with the Wildshape variant and Sword of the Arcane Order is basically the gold standard for powerful characters in E6. Throw on Trap Expert and he's a one-man party.

I'm fairly certain he isn't planning on going this route. I'll check but I think he just wants the ability to uses CLW wands at level 2 whilst still being a ranger. Sword of the arcane order requirements are very fluff based anyway, and I don't think my DM would let him go that route.



A Crusader may be tanky and decent at dealing single-hit damage, along with a bit of healing, but if the rest of the party knows what they're doing it should be fine.

The Dragon Shaman may be better off switching to Dragonfire Adept, it's just overall better at doing stuff. There are even feats in Dragon Magic that do the same thing as the Dragon Shaman's auras. He can pick long duration buff invocations and use armor and a (tower) shield without proficiency, and he won't be making any attack rolls or worrying about spell failure so the drawbacks won't even be relevant. Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon will make him exceptionally more useful.


I think he's planning on using/abusing metabreath feats. A maximized heightened clinging lingering enlarged breath weapon is plenty strong. Also he's going to be getting some nice capstone feat for going 6 dragon shaman (or so he says)





The Swashbuckler/Rogue should consider switching to a single-classed Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Fighter, especially since the E6 Fighter capstone will allow him to get Melee Weapon Mastery and Improved Critical. If the group is worried about traps, the Ranger can get the Trap Expert ACF from Dungeonscape.

That... actually sounds straight up better than his build plan :smallbiggrin: I'll suggest this to him tomorrow



As an E6 Wizard, I would actually consider going Beguiler 1/ Wizard 5, include Able Learner and use Versatile Spellcaster to gain spontaneous access to all of your 1st and 2nd level Wizard spells. You'll have tons of Color Sprays in the early levels and you'll still get plenty of 3rd level spells as a (focused) specialist.

I'm skeptical I could get this to fly with my dm, anyway I already have most of a build outlined in my head but thanks for the suggestion anyway :smallsmile:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm fairly certain he isn't planning on going this route. I'll check but I think he just wants the ability to uses CLW wands at level 2 whilst still being a ranger. Sword of the arcane order requirements are very fluff based anyway, and I don't think my DM would let him go that route.

I think he's planning on using/abusing metabreath feats. A maximized heightened clinging lingering enlarged breath weapon is plenty strong. Also he's going to be getting some nice capstone feat for going 6 dragon shaman (or so he says)

That... actually sounds straight up better than his build plan :smallbiggrin: I'll suggest this to him tomorrow

I'm skeptical I could get this to fly with my dm, anyway I already have most of a build outlined in my head but thanks for the suggestion anyway :smallsmile:

An ordinary Ranger 1 or Paladin 1 can use a wand of any spell on their class spell list, you don't have to even be able to cast spells yet to use wands:
Anyone with a spell on his or her spell list knows how to use a spell trigger item that stores that spell. (This is the case even for a character who can’t actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin.) (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger)

The feat Power Surge from Dragon 313 p57 adds 1 round to the time you must wait before you can use the ability again. When you use it you pick from +1 DC, or +1 damage per die, or +50% duration for the ability in question. It only works on supernatural abilities, but it can be used by a Dragonfire Adept to qualify for and use metabreath feats.

If he goes with Thug instead of Swashbuckler/Rogue, he can trade Ride for Tumble as a class skill (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), among others.

[Auron3991]

There's a dragon shaman in the party, I'm not sure anyone's going to get outshone since he provides a fixed increase to the capabilities of everyone, you're at low enough levels that numbers actually still matter, and it doesn't sound like you're going to reach critical mass levels for any of your party members. If you were going anywhere near lv 12, I'd be more on your DM's side depending on the race of said crusader, because it could easily turn into wizard teleports crusader to enemy, watch enemy explode.

[DEMON]

The Swashbuckler/Rogue should consider switching to a single-classed Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) Sneak Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighter) Fighter, especially since the E6 Fighter capstone will allow him to get Melee Weapon Mastery and Improved Critical. If the group is worried about traps, the Ranger can get the Trap Expert ACF from Dungeonscape.


What Rogue gets, compared to the Thug SA Fighter (besides 4 more skill points, decent skill list, boost to reflex save, evasion and trapfinding) is the ability to deal your sneak attack damage to targets normally immune, thanks to the Penetrating Strike ACF. The Swashbuckler also adds INT to damage and if he isn't going the Daring Outlaw route, he can grab a nice spell like instead of Grace +1.

A Hit-and-Run SA Fighter 3 / Swashbucker 3 with Daring Outlaw on the other hand offers up to +4d6 SA, 6 BAB and thus access to, among other things, Staggerring Strike and you can add DEX and/or INT to your damage, based on the situation. You'd still have issues with SA immune targets, obviously and the trapfinding duties will have to fall on the Ranger's shoulders.

Last but not least, if the player is willing to give up INT to damage, SA Figther 4 / Swashbuckler 2 can qualify for both Daring Outlaw (+1d6 SA only, though) and Daring Warrior and Darring Warrior in turn qualifies him for the E6 Fighter capstone feat.


I'm fairly certain he isn't planning on going this route. I'll check but I think he just wants the ability to uses CLW wands at level 2 whilst still being a ranger. Sword of the arcane order requirements are very fluff based anyway, and I don't think my DM would let him go that route.

As mentioned earlier by Biffoniacus, any Ranger can use wands of Ranger spells from level 1 (well, unless he traded spellcasting for Champion of the Wild or that crappy ACF from Complete Warrior, that is), so he doesn't need to go Mystic Ranger just for that. Not that it hurts, to have some extra spells, of course.

If the would be Rogue / Swashbuckler changes his mind and swaps the Rogue for Fighter, the Ranger might as well grab the Trap Expert ACF.

And as a side note, if he's taking the Wildshare Ranger ACF, might I suggest Intuitive Attack (feat; BoED) to go with it?

[prufock]

The crusader's first-level maneuvers and stances are:

18% healing
18% debuffing
55% buffing
9% direct damage

Steely Resolve/Furious Counterstrike are good but not overwhelming at this level. Indomitable Soul is entirely defensive. He will make a great tank, a good team buffer, and a decent damage-dealer. I don't think there's anything to worry about here, at least no more so than the mystic ranger (and if he goes whole hog with Sword of the Arcane Order and Shooting Star sub levels, look out!).

Keep in mind that playstyle and team cohesion matter. If the crusader is planning to tank, the dragon shaman is buffing/debuffing, the rogue/swashbuckler sticking and moving, and the mystic ranger firing away from range and casting spells as necessary, you've got good a well-balanced party.