magic initiate vs 3 levels of fighter for paladin

[MadBear]

So I'm having a hard time deciding what to do with my paladin. He's currently lvl 8, but i'm already planning his future. I'm a vengeance paladin wielding a +2 sword that does 2d6 necrotic damage.

On the one hand going fighter 3 after lvl 11 paladin will net me:

- Action surge
- +1 AC
- Ranged cantrip
- shield spell

conversely, at level 12, I can take magic initiate which will keep me in the paladin class and net me:

- ranged cantrip
- shield spell
- not losing any paladin levels (which means more smite).


To put this in the full context, I will never go past level 16 with this character.

What would you choose?

[Oscredwin]

I'm not too impressed with a shield spell once per day, in either case. Maybe magic initiate for Warlock, get EB and Hex.

[Envyus]

Oh you have Harizawn. That's an evil blade there.

[Mandragola]

Personally I'd say fighter is way better. Not sure why you're going to all this trouble for shield though. If I had Hazirawn then I'd want action surge so I could bash people with it more often. By level 11 you'll already be able to cast haste on yourself, which is a pretty good way to use your action surge actually.

You might find battlemaster or champion more useful than eldritch knight though. Extra crit range is obviously good if you're rolling 4d6+d8+7 damage with advantage. Battlemaster could give you riposte, though actually you get something similar from just being a vengeance paladin. Champion is probably how I'd go - or just carry on as paladin.

I can't really see any argument for magic initiate I'm afraid. Shield once a day at level 12 is really not amazing. I suppose it's good for when you've misty stepped up to the enemy caster, smited him a bunch of times and now find his friends looking a bit cross. I see how it might get you through that round!

[MadBear]

The shield spell is more of an afterthought. What I'm really looking for is some sort of ranged attack option. Currently I have javalin's to throw..... and that's about it.

I've considered grabbing battlemaster, but I'm hesitant to lose smites through no spell slot progression.

[hawklost]

Magic Initiate (Warlock) would provide you better Ranged options and still use your Cha modifier for spells.

Eldritch Blast would give you 3 shots at 1d10 each at lvl 12 (For one action) (3 chances to crit, 3 possible targets if you want to spread the fire)
Blade Ward could be chosen for when you are in a defensive mood

Hellish rebuke is a decent once a day punishment level first lvl spell.

You can even write it in as he finds some fiend/archfey/old one and makes a small pact with it to be able to destroy the greater evil. Something like "I will give you this power for just a small favor in the future.... oh don't worry about it now, just take the power and put it to good use..... *evil laugh*"

[xyianth]

One thing to remember is that MM has clarified that the Magic Initiate feat does add the 1st level spell as a spell known. (i.e. adds to the list of spells you can cast using your slots) It also grants you the ability to cast it without using a slot once per long rest at it's lowest level. (i.e. 1st level)

With that in mind, I have a slightly different recommendation: take paladin 12 with magic initiate selecting shield and 2 sorcerer cantrips. Then follow up with 2-3 levels of warlock and 1-2 levels of bard.
The reasoning behind this is that the paladin class starts being lackluster after level 11-12. If you are ending at level 16, you would never get more than 4th level slots anyway. Warlock however adds some interesting abilities in its first 3 levels. The 1-2 levels of bard grant you some inspiration dice and, more importantly, make you a multiclass spellcaster. Since paladin counts as half caster, paladin 12/warlock 3/bard 1 is a 7th level multiclass spellcaster and gets a 4th level slot. If you want a 2nd 4th level slot, go with paladin 12/warlock 2/bard 2.

Why warlock:

Eldritch blast is the king of cantrips, especially with agonizing blast and/or repelling blast.
Armor of agathys is a useful source of off-action damage and mitigation.
Hellish rebuke is the only ranged reaction that deals damage.
The often praised darkness + devil's sight combo.
Fiend patron gives extra mitigation when you drop a target.
Great Old One patron gives telepathy, if your paladin is more like an inquisitor.
Blade pact will let you hide your awesome sword in a pocket dimension.
Chain pact will give you an invisible scout. (and may give you magic resistance)
Tome pact will let you poach cantrips from cleric/druid/wizard without resorting to int/wis based casting.
Your pact magic slots return after a short rest, and you can use them to fuel divine smite and paladin spells.


As a vengeance paladin, you already have hunter's mark, so you don't need to learn hex. And by dipping bard and warlock and taking magic initiate you can grab 6 cantrips of your choice, letting you grab some utility ones as well as a ranged attack or two.

Cantrips I highly recommend:

Eldritch blast: force damage, multi-attack, awesome with invocations.
Friends: completely replaces the intimidation skill for interrogations.
Minor illusion: ghost sound + silent image(fixed) in one.
Vicious mockery: usable without a free hand, psychic damage is rare, ability to force disadvantage from range is strong.
Prestidigitation: clean that armor of yours, also perform all kinds of useful tricks.
Mending: fix anything, avoid long plot quests to find repair guy for broken mcguffin.


If you just want a good attack cantrip from sorcerer's list: ray of frost is good for kiting, acid splash is good for multi-targeting, chill touch is good for shutting down healing.

One thing to keep in mind regarding the eldritch knight multiclass, it uses int as its casting stat, which unless you rolled really well is probably your lowest stat as a paladin.

[charlesk]

One thing to remember is that MM has clarified that the Magic Initiate feat does add the 1st level spell as a spell known. (i.e. adds to the list of spells you can cast using your slots) It also grants you the ability to cast it without using a slot once per long rest at it's lowest level. (i.e. 1st level)


What I found was:



@mikemearls Does the "you learn that spell" language in the Magic Initiate feat mean you can cast it with existing spell slots? — James Crawford (@JCrawfordMusic) September 8, 2014 @JCrawfordMusic I'd say yes, but featspecifies can't cast it after using it. Official answer might differ, but it doesn't break anything — Mike Mearls (@mikemearls) September […]


Not even sure what that means. I can use it with existing slots but as soon as I use the freebie I no longer can do so? The text says "Once you cast it, you must finish a long rest before you can cast it again."

The plain reading to me suggests quite clearly that this is a separate one-off and not part of your normal spells known.

[Yagyujubei]

One thing to remember is that MM has clarified that the Magic Initiate feat does add the 1st level spell as a spell known. (i.e. adds to the list of spells you can cast using your slots) It also grants you the ability to cast it without using a slot once per long rest at it's lowest level. (i.e. 1st level)

With that in mind, I have a slightly different recommendation: take paladin 12 with magic initiate selecting shield and 2 sorcerer cantrips. Then follow up with 2-3 levels of warlock and 1-2 levels of bard.
The reasoning behind this is that the paladin class starts being lackluster after level 11-12. If you are ending at level 16, you would never get more than 4th level slots anyway. Warlock however adds some interesting abilities in its first 3 levels. The 1-2 levels of bard grant you some inspiration dice and, more importantly, make you a multiclass spellcaster. Since paladin counts as half caster, paladin 12/warlock 3/bard 1 is a 7th level multiclass spellcaster and gets a 4th level slot. If you want a 2nd 4th level slot, go with paladin 12/warlock 2/bard 2.

Why warlock:

Eldritch blast is the king of cantrips, especially with agonizing blast and/or repelling blast.
Armor of agathys is a useful source of off-action damage and mitigation.
Hellish rebuke is the only ranged reaction that deals damage.
The often praised darkness + devil's sight combo.
Fiend patron gives extra mitigation when you drop a target.
Great Old One patron gives telepathy, if your paladin is more like an inquisitor.
Blade pact will let you hide your awesome sword in a pocket dimension.
Chain pact will give you an invisible scout. (and may give you magic resistance)
Tome pact will let you poach cantrips from cleric/druid/wizard without resorting to int/wis based casting.
Your pact magic slots return after a short rest, and you can use them to fuel divine smite and paladin spells.


As a vengeance paladin, you already have hunter's mark, so you don't need to learn hex. And by dipping bard and warlock and taking magic initiate you can grab 6 cantrips of your choice, letting you grab some utility ones as well as a ranged attack or two.

Cantrips I highly recommend:

Eldritch blast: force damage, multi-attack, awesome with invocations.
Friends: completely replaces the intimidation skill for interrogations.
Minor illusion: ghost sound + silent image(fixed) in one.
Vicious mockery: usable without a free hand, psychic damage is rare, ability to force disadvantage from range is strong.
Prestidigitation: clean that armor of yours, also perform all kinds of useful tricks.
Mending: fix anything, avoid long plot quests to find repair guy for broken mcguffin.


If you just want a good attack cantrip from sorcerer's list: ray of frost is good for kiting, acid splash is good for multi-targeting, chill touch is good for shutting down healing.

One thing to keep in mind regarding the eldritch knight multiclass, it uses int as its casting stat, which unless you rolled really well is probably your lowest stat as a paladin.

agreed. this is good advice. although the last bit about taking a sorc cantrip...I would still recommend EB even for that but yeah.

[Myzz]

If you dip any caster, I'd say not bother with Magic Initiate... Unless you don't need ASI's or any other feat... Which dipping a caster means you might rather have War Caster at that point...

Dependent on Int as a dump stat or not, Wiz might make the a better multiclass than Bard or Sorc or cleric imo... Get Ritual Caster for free AND a spellbook to get all the rituals you can cast into and then not have to worry about knowing or prepping them.

I agree that on paper warlock seems the best choice, as long as you are getting your short rests in so warlock slots refresh...

[MadBear]

I'm just not a big fan of the warlock dip. For one, I'm not big on the flavor of the warlock, although I do see how mechanically it offers the best ranged attack for my character. Additionally though, I'd rather have action surge then the 1 spell slot that warlock is offering. Heck even the 3 levels of Battlemaster grants me multiple uses of superiority dice.

[xyianth]

My apologies, I did not mean to imply that warlock was the only option. If warlock doesn't gel with your character concept, there are definitely worse options out there than battlemaster. If you do go this route and take magic initiate to grab a ranged attack, you could nab eldritch blast by selecting warlock there, but you would lose the shield spell as it is not on the warlock list. I would recommend the hellish rebuke spell if you go this route, as it is a reaction to cast. (armor of agathys could also work, but to be effective it really needs to be cast from higher level slots) If shield is important to you, chill touch or ray of frost would be my recommendation for a sorcerer attack cantrip.

Lore bard can also make an excellent multiclass with paladin to boost your skill proficiencies and give you some bonus action inspiration die to play with. As a full caster it effectively grants you 2 levels of paladin slots per level. As a charisma based caster, its cantrips are quite useful to you as well.

I would not recommend ranger, monk, cleric, druid, wizard, arcane trickster, or eldritch knight for multiclassing with a paladin though, as the stat requirements are difficult to pull off and still be effective. Bear totem barbarian can be useful for damage resistance, but only if your DM rules you can use smite while raging. (I think its ok RAW, but I could see an argument either way) Rogue could be useful for cunning action, expertise, sneak attack, and fast hands or assassinate. Depends on whether you have the dex to pull it off or not. Sorcerer as a multiclass option is not recommended, as the class features don't really add much to a paladin.

I hope this is useful/helpful, best of luck with your game!



The following is purely for clarity's sake, in case others stumble across this thread:
The warlock 3 dip would provide 2/short rest 2nd level slots, 2 class features (pact and patron), 4 spells known, 2 cantrips, and 2 invocations. The expectation is 2 short rests and 1 long rest per day, resulting in an expected 6 slots per day. The fluff on warlock is pretty easy to tailor any way you like. The class description even mentions that the relationship between you and your patron can vary pretty wildly, including the possibility that your patron isn't even aware of it. That said, I know some DMs like putting extra roleplaying requirements on warlocks for some reason, so YMMV.

[Socko525]

The following is purely for clarity's sake, in case others stumble across this thread:
The warlock 3 dip would provide 2/short rest 2nd level slots, 2 class features (pact and patron), 4 spells known, 2 cantrips, and 2 invocations. The expectation is 2 short rests and 1 long rest per day, resulting in an expected 6 slots per day. The fluff on warlock is pretty easy to tailor any way you like. The class description even mentions that the relationship between you and your patron can vary pretty wildly, including the possibility that your patron isn't even aware of it. That said, I know some DMs like putting extra roleplaying requirements on warlocks for some reason, so YMMV.

I would agree with Warlock in this case, you can get EB and then add your Cha to each blast with the right invocation. You'd have 2 3d8 smites that you can regain on a short rest, and you could go pact of the blade allowing you to shunt Harziwan into a pocket dimension and bring it back to your hand whenever you need it. Alternatively if your DM has ruled that Warlock invocations are based off character level and not warlock level, there is that one invocation that allows you to add your Cha mod in necrotic damage to each melee attack you make with your Pact weapon.

I my self am in a similar situation and I'm torn between bard and warlock. (Warlock for the short rest smites and invocations, lore bard for the skills, expertise, jack of all trades and spell diversity. And with a 3 level bard dip you could end up having more spell slots than you normally would as a straight paladin of the same level)

[MadBear]

Thanks for all the advice all!

Warlock is tempting, but I think I'll be going in a completely different direction then I previously planned and grab 3 levels of Battlemaster. That nets me:

- Action surge
- 4 superiority dice
- Precise attack (to help when I miss by a small margin)
- Menacing Attack (combined with sentinel, it gives the enemy bad choices all around, and targets will save)
- trip Attack (knocking people down makes them easier to kill and targets strength save)
- +1 AC

I lose a bit of smite, but the superiority dice just help flesh the character out and give him a few more options in combat.