Tank build.

[aloofscarab]

Starting a new game and i'm getting slotted into the role of BSF/Tank, normally i'd have plenty to run with here but this one is a bit unusual.
Rules:
1. No Core classes
2. No Prestige Classes
3. One +1 Racial LA free, one +1 template LA free
4. Level 7
5. No ToB(It kills me..it really does)

So can you all help me out? I've looked at psychic warrior, duskblade, knight(i know it sucks), and i'm just stumped. I'm half tempted to do a Goliath Mineral Warrior? Anyway, advice appreciated all!

[PseudoPanda]

Interesting limitations. I think Psy warrior might be best, spam vigor and share pain with a psicrystal if the rest of your party is really fragile (Though you can't get share pain until level 8 without psy reformation). With the free LA I'd go half-giant with either the draconic template (races of the dragon) or the feral template (Savage species). Mineral warrior is good for melee types but you need at least a little in Wis for psy warrior.

[OldTrees1]

Well at 7th level you would want some form of flight.

I recommend a Saint Dragonborn Warforged Psychic Warrior 6. (I assumed an unused free racial +1LA does not mitigate the +2-1 LA of the Saint Template)

[goto124]

I heard that Tanks don't really work in TTRPGs because monsters are too smart to keep hitting the same guy. How true is this? How do tanks work in Tabletops?

[Seppo87]

Draconic Goliath
Knight3/Psywar4
Keep going on with psywar forever.


I heard that Tanks don't really work in TTRPGs because monsters are too smart to keep hitting the same guy. How true is this? How do tanks work in Tabletops?
It depends on the system. In 3.5 you can hamper enemies movement. In 4E all defenders have some sort of punish that triggers when enemies try to ignore you.

[Amphetryon]

Lolth-Touched Goliath Totemist (Magic of Incarnum).

[Forrestfire]

I heard that Tanks don't really work in TTRPGs because monsters are too smart to keep hitting the same guy. How true is this? How do tanks work in Tabletops?

In 3.5, the vast majority of the threat potential comes from spellcasters, to the point where the smart thing to do is to just outright ignore most noncasters and focus on the mages. This means that traditional "tanking" does't work against most enemies unless the DM plays enemies dumber than they are (because fighters, for example, just aren't threatening enough). Because of how rocket tag-heavy 3.5 is, a melee swordguy who is enough of a threat to "draw aggro", so to speak, is also enough of a threat to probably drop or nearly drop the enemy in one round by himself.

The best way to tank in 3.5 is to play a wizard, with spells to lock down the battlefield. The best way outside of spellcasters is to play something like a chain tripper, that locks down enemies' actions and movement. As said, in 4e, Defenders had stuff that hampered movement and attacks, as well as protecting allies and getting abilities that make enemies penalized or hit for free if they try to do stuff other than focus on you. So far, in 5e, the best tank I've seen is grappling, because it's very simple to get good at it, and it's also very simple to implement (5e grapple-tanking is basically "you roll an opposed skill check against things and they cannot move away from you, but you can drag them around freely", which is easily combined with stuff like the Paladin's ally-shielding abilities, or even more lockdown, or magic support like Enlarge to make you better at this).

[aloofscarab]

Thanks for the responses guys!

[Forrestfire]

What exactly does "no core classes" cover here? Are you allowed to get variants from other books or Dragon, or just classes from noncore sources? This seems like it'd be a fun exercise to work on, given a couple minutes to think about it. Also, what sources are allowed?

[goto124]

So in 3.5, It's better to have a 'tank wizard' if that makes any sense? DO melees serve any purpose beyond roleplay?

[Forrestfire]

Personally, I am inclined to suggest something like a chain tripper for this build, probably based on psychic warrior or possibly a caster. For template, Lolth-touched is useful if you can stomach it (see my sig :smalltongue:) because of the +6 Str, although there are a decent amount of other useful ones. Mineral Warrior might be better, because of the DR. Goliath is pretty good for this as well, as you had suggested. I'd go here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1123606)to get some good info on how this sort of build works, and how one might build it on a non-core character. Sadly, one of the most important tools (Thicket of Blades) doesn't exist here, but it should be decent even without it, especially with the Str buffs from race and template.

Melees do a lot of damage, and have some good stuff. I mean, you can build any class (even Commoner) to do fine against CR-appropriate threats. The main issue is that the same amount of effort put into, say, a Wizard, will net you so much more. I mean, overall, D&D is a team game, and a wizard + fighter-type will do better than just a wizard, probably, but in hypothetical scenarios, it is easy to say that a wizard is objectively better at serving the tank (i.e. take attacks, and keep enemies from attacking allies) role.

A wizard tanks by controlling the battlefield. he's got his own defenses, which are often better than an equal level noncaster's on account of being able to use spells on them (Displacement, Abrupt Jaunt, etc). But mostly, look at it this way:

A fighter can run up and hit something, and AoO them if they move away, and possibly stop them from leaving if they're specced for it.

At level 1, a wizard has the ability to stop the enemies from doing anything with a color spray, or keep them from approaching and weaken them with grease. At level 3, he unlocks the ability to blind them with glitterdust or stop them from moving with web. At level 5, he gets the ability to make them lose their actions with a stinking cloud, or slow them. Level 7, black tentacles, which is just a pile of awesome and terrible, and will lock down many enemies. Solid fog as well, for more "you can't move," and alsowall of fire and wall of ice, for shaping the field. This is also the level where he unlocks polymorph, and can just run into melee and do the fighter thing as well. Character level 9... Wall of stone, wall of force, telekinesis to grapple someone at range... At level 11, there isn't much. Wall of iron and repulsion can be nice, though. At level 13 the wizard can forcecage his enemies to keep from them harming his allies, and at later levels, the most efficient spells are more about normal wizard stuff.

This is all just the core spells, and is in no way comprehensive. Splatbooks added a ton of power to this hypothetical tank wizard, and with prestige classes, he could, if he wanted, outright tank, running into melee with an AC in the high 30s and the ability to attack just as well as a full BAB character.

Melees serve a purpose beyond roleplay, but when you get down to it, the tier 1 classes can do anything the lower tiers can do, better, and more efficiently. This is a major problem, albeit one that doesn't come up as much in many groups. The problem with tanking is that 3.5 has no aggro mechanic, so any enemy who knows what they're doing (and even goblins know what they're doing) should just ignore the guy with the sword who can only stab them, and go for the mage who can end the entire fight with one spell if he wants.

[aloofscarab]

Here are the creation rules for your perusal.

Persona
- begin as a level 7 character with 38 point buy
- templates of LA +1 are free and start as a level 7 character
- templates of La +2 and +3 must have levels absorbed, and start as a lower level character
- no race with racial HD
- race choices of LA +1 are free and start as a level 7 character
- race choices of La +2 and +3 must have levels absorbed, and start as a lower level character
- 2 flaws, 2 traits max
- health is max for every level
- wealth as referred to in the table
- all have Unarmed Strike feat trained
- official base classes only, BUT no core base classes from this list
- Dragon magazines and all supplementary official manuals are accepted as reference for base classes
- no Tome of Battle base classes, but 1 Tome of Battle maneuver can be learned at every 2 character levels with your initiator level equal to your character level eg. 1, 3, 5, 7
- no multiclassing penalties
- no prestige classes

[Ssalarn]

So in 3.5, It's better to have a 'tank wizard' if that makes any sense? DO melees serve any purpose beyond roleplay?

Martial characters can still provide some of the best single target damage, and they're generally useful for soaking up damage. If you've got a class or build that can utilize a reach weapon to lock an area down, they can be handy. A buddy of mine and myself used to play in a group together, and I had a "tanky" Ranger and he played a blaster Sorcerer. One of our favorite tactics used to be for me to go out and draw as many enemies as possible into as tight a cluster as I could manage, and then he'd lob a big damage spell that I'd avoid the brunt of with evasion and a precast protection from energy.

Martial characters also help the caster reserve resources he'd otherwise have to spend on comparatively trivial encounters, though that matters less as you level up.

[Forrestfire]

Personally, given those, I feel like I would probably go with something a bit odd for a "melee tank", but it works decently well.

Race: Lolth-Touched Goliath (or Mineral Warrior/Half-Minotaur/Half-Ogre if you have to keep fluff)
Class: Psion (Telepath) 7
Starting Ability Scores (point-buy): 16 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 16 Int, 8 Wisdom, 10 Cha (or the other way, I just prefer Wisdom as a dump stat myself)
Starting Ability Scores (post-race): 26 Str, 14 Dex, 22 Con, 16 Int, 8 Wis, 10 Cha
Flaws: any two
Traits: Aggressive (+2 init, -1 AC), any other (if any)

Feats

1st - Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertiseflaw bonus, Improved Tripflaw bonus, Stand Stillpsion bonus, Improved Unarmed Strikehouserule bonus
3rd - Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Meteor HammerDr319)
5th - Psicrystal Affinitypsion bonus - Nimble Personality for more Initiative
6th - Mage Slayer OR Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) if you're unable to learn it with that houserule (stances are maneuvers, but it's a rules hole, so I don't know the intent of the houserule, and it's a can of works anyway)

Martial Maneuvers Learned

1st - Moment of Perfect Mind
3rd - Foehammer
5th - Thicket of Blades (if valid)
7th - Divine Surge

Relevant Powers Known (italics for very important ones)

1st - Force Screen, Expansion, Inertial Armor, Vigor, Skate
2nd - Psionic Grease (learned in lieu of a 2nd-level), three open slots
3rd - Energy Wall, Time Hop, two open slots
4th - Schism, Wall of Ectoplasm

Equipment (19,000gp to spend)

Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4,000gp)
+1 Large Meteor Hammer (2,303gp)
Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000gp)
25 +1 Manifester Arrows (4,150gp, 5sp) [iff the DM allows them] - they are useful for powering many of your non-augmented powers]
4,546.5gp left



The build's main tanky ability is Vigor, which can grant it tons of extra temporary HP (on top of your base 70). In addition, Schism allows you to drop a power each turn on top of attacking and moving around. Expansion is useful to increase your trip bonus, reach, and damage even more, and overall, you can keep most things around you from going anywhere. On top of that, you've got the utility of having stuff like Energy Wall and Wall of Ectoplasm to divide the battlefield and keep enemies from reaching your allies, and do a lot of damage when you do hit thanks to that +8 Strength mod, even with your low BAB.

[Eldariel]

What about Favored Souls, Artificers and Archivists? For obvious reasons, those are among the best tanks I can think of (though it's a bit harder to get persistent spells without Turning dips, of course; downer for the non-Artificers). Tell me if you want to go about one of those, I won't delve into the matter too much if divine magic/itemomancy doesn't interest you.

[Forrestfire]

Dragon... 310, I wanna say, has a pair of feats that together give you Turn Undead, which could work there.

[aloofscarab]

I'd rather stay away from full casters, the GM really wants to make this a party game where no one has all the answers and so he's limiting role overlap. Psywarrior looks good so far, though if anyone had another option I'd take that too. How about the Sohei from OA? Is it any good?

[gorfnab]

Incarnates (MoI) can tank nicely.

Here is a build from the original Incarnum Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1172966)

LN Warforged Dragonborn Incarnate 20
Feats:
1st: Adamantine Body
Flaw 1: Shape Soulmeld (Dragon Tail)
Flaw 2: Jaws of Death
3rd: Multiattack
6th: Bonus Essentia
9th: Expanded Soulmeld Capacity
12th: Double Chakra (Arms or Waist)
15th: Split Chakra (Soul)
18th: Double Chakra (Arms, waist, or heart)

This build is a little intense on the ability scores, but is very solid in melee of any kind. The Incarnate Weapon alone makes this a very potent combatant, adding in the Dragon Tail and Jaws of Death, and you have 3 attacks at level 1. True, most of them won't hit, but the Incarnate Weapon still stays behind. it is debatable if Dragonborn allows you to keep the natural weapons of your base race, but the bite from Jaws of Death is kept no matter the ruling the same way you keep Adamantine Body.

If the DM allows you to keep the Slam attack, ditch the 12th level feat for Second Slam to improve upon your combat abilities.

With a +4 bonus to Con, +8 to AC, and 3 atatcks off the bat, this build is a solid tank for any party. Couple this with the versatility of the Incarnate's Soulmelds, and the defenses you can put up, and this build shines in any combat. The entire idea is to be a solid tank.

While you lack the sheer offense of a Fighter or Barbarian, you can cover for them when the party needs you to. Multiattack and its Improved form will be a great help to your offense.

[aloofscarab]

Thanks Gorfnab! I was actually about to ask about Incarnate, that's got some potential! Hmm..

[SciChronic]

i would probably run some kind of Knight, with some fighter or totemist dips and focus on tripping. Classic 2 level fighter for some feats but flaws could cover that. totemist would simply add some flexibility options.

Honestly, better than "tanking" you would probably do better with tripping to keep you opponents from actually hitting you. Typical spiked chain or guisarme build would work, maybe dervish for some flair?

[aloofscarab]

Thanks for the thoughts SciChronic, but I can't dip fighter as it's a banned base class and I can't prc at all so dervish is out. Gotta be a base class all the way, I could multiclass into totemist from knight but I don't know how much good that'd really do.

[Karl Aegis]

Sohei are amazing with the right prestige class support (Bear Warrior and Drunken Master come to mind), but without prestige classes their one claim to fame is their spellcasting and immunity to stunning.

[aloofscarab]

Ah ok thanks Karl!

[DMVerdandi]

Have you looked at binder?
More than a Few Vestiges have really great defensive abilities.

[Elric VIII]

So in 3.5, It's better to have a 'tank wizard' if that makes any sense? DO melees serve any purpose beyond roleplay?

Actually, clerics make the best tanks. With chained GMW one defending armor/shield spikes and other minor op you can get AC in the mid 70s rather cheaply and without getting a DMG thrown at you. This pretty much nullifies all noncaster enemies. Then you've got my favorite feat ever: divine defiance lets you counterspell as an immediate action by spending a TU attempt, thus protecting you from non-SLA casters. Finally, throw some battlemagic perception into it so you can detect those SLAs and you just shut down enemies as they flail at you helplessly.

I had a character that was outright immune to 90% of things, while still being relevant because his remaining casting was on party buff, no-save debuffs, and some minor summoning.

[Karl Aegis]

Actually, clerics make the best tanks. With chained GMW one defending armor/shield spikes and other minor op you can get AC in the mid 70s rather cheaply and without getting a DMG thrown at you. This pretty much nullifies all noncaster enemies. Then you've got my favorite feat ever: divine defiance lets you counterspell as an immediate action by spending a TU attempt, thus protecting you from non-SLA casters. Finally, throw some battlemagic perception into it so you can detect those SLAs and you just shut down enemies as they flail at you helplessly.

I had a character that was outright immune to 90% of things, while still being relevant because his remaining casting was on party buff, no-save debuffs, and some minor summoning.

That sounds more like you were playing GOD more than a BSF.

[Elric VIII]

That sounds more like you were playing GOD more than a BSF.

But in the sense of an MMORPG or MOBA (as opposed to a TTRPG), that's exactly what a "tank" is. He's the one that controls the flow of combat.

The BSF is more like a striker.

[aloofscarab]

Thanks for the thought Elric, I love me some CODzilla. But the specifics of character creation say no base classes from the PHB. I suppose I could do something similar with the OA shaman but like I said I'm trying to stick with a non - full caster. The GM is a strange mix of low OP and mid OP, and he doesn't want my character able to do it all or have an answer for/trivialize what he throws against us.

[Eldariel]

Not sure it was brought up enough but in addition to the Incarnate, Totemist can also pass for an excellent bruiser chassis, probably a better one than Incarnate right out of the blue. Binder might also be interesting.

[Elric VIII]

Thanks for the thought Elric, I love me some CODzilla. But the specifics of character creation say no base classes from the PHB. I suppose I could do something similar with the OA shaman but like I said I'm trying to stick with a non - full caster. The GM is a strange mix of low OP and mid OP, and he doesn't want my character able to do it all or have an answer for/trivialize what he throws against us.

Oh, guess I missed the no full caster part, sorry. As for cleric, if I had known it existed at the time I would have probably used an archivist, anyway.

Well, a character that I am playing right now in my first ever pathfinder campaign is very similar to this. I am an inquisitor that focuses on no save debuff spells, a debuffing aura, and a trip/step up build that ensures enemies cannot escape me. You could probably achieve a similar thing in 3.5 with the binder that uses stand still to keep enemies close by. Focalar's aura provides -2 to saves, skills, attack, etc. There are also some options like one of the evil paladins or blackguard that give you aura of despair for a short dip.

As far as I have experienced, there are two main ways to be a "tank" in D&D (3 if you count the DM actually working with you on a RP level). The first is to make life miserable for nearby opponents. Using debuffs and penalties you can make it so that your opponents cannot hurt your allies. This "tanks" because it is often helpful to be survivable if you are making your opponents' lives miserable. By being a constant source of unpleasantness, you make yourself a target.

The second is by physically restricting your opponents. BFC is your goal here. Stand still, tripping, grappling, etc. If your enemies cannot reach your allies, then they just give up and attack you. Become an obstacle.

Now, the main issue is that spellcasters are better at both things than mundanes, for the most part. However, I think a binder base can get you where you need to be, especially with the vestige that lets you summon monsters to obstruct the battlefield. Consider Knight of the Sacred Seal if you want some more BAB for tripping or grappling.

[Karl Aegis]

Thanks for the thought Elric, I love me some CODzilla. But the specifics of character creation say no base classes from the PHB. I suppose I could do something similar with the OA shaman but like I said I'm trying to stick with a non - full caster. The GM is a strange mix of low OP and mid OP, and he doesn't want my character able to do it all or have an answer for/trivialize what he throws against us.

If that's what you want I would recommend the Dragon Shaman from Player's Handbook II. Between Entangling Exhalation and Imperious Command feats and the Never Outnumbered skill trick you can stop enemies from constantly charging your party. You can wear mithril full plate and have an animated shield for a moderate Armor Class boosted by your class's natural armor bonus (that stacks with other natural armor). With a D10 hit die and a Constitution based attack you should have enough hit points to survive being hit at least once.

Depending on your build, you can be the party face as well. You have intimidate as a class skill and can get bluff, gather information and survival (trade survival for sense motive, as per the Cityscape rules) from the Brass Dragon totem. Diplomacy is the hard skill to get because Tome of Battle is banned. Instead of Martial Study (Leading the Charge) you should take Apprentice (Entertainer) to get Diplomacy as a class skill.

I would also recommend trading most of your auras for Dragonfire Adept invocations, particularly Beguiling Influence, as per the alternate class feature in Dragon Magic.

[aloofscarab]

Thanks for the advice guys, I think ive got what im doing nailed down!