Dragon-Themed Swordsage

[torrasque666]

So I want to make a dragon themed swordsage because my group is running a dragon themed campaign. I was looking into building into Vassal of Bahamut, possibly trying to get my DM to allow maneuvers and stances in place of spells.

Any advice for maneuvers to take? I know that desert flame sucks and I want to avoid Shadow Hand(even though I know shadow hand can get me Dex to damage and Dex+Wisdom on strikes).

I'm willing to use all books but not DragMag and I'd prefer to avoid web material.

Stats will be rolled, rather than bought, and will be done at the time of character creation and as such I don't have the stats right now.

I will also note that I cannot start as a Dragonborn, but may well be able to convince my DM to let me become one part way through, so things with decent racial traits that may get nuked(humans for instance) I would like to try to avoid them so I don't lose too much.

[Zaq]

Well, Desert Wind is going to be the most thematically appropriate discipline to focus on. It's not the strongest discipline by a long shot, but it's still decent if your GM doesn't go overboard giving everything and its brother fire resistance. (Yes, fire resistance is very common among default monsters, which is why you have to know your GM going into it. If your GM loves humanoids with class levels, for instance, fire resistance probably won't come up that much. If he or she favors demons, for example, then Desert Wind is just going to be a waste of time.) So I guess you could talk to your GM and see if he or she is willing to work with you by not making every other enemy you fight resistant or immune to your main tactic, or if he or she is willing to let you alter Desert Wind to make it less fiery (either by letting you swap the element, or by making it half unresistable like Flame Strike, or by letting you burn a feat on making it fully unresistable, or whatever).

Of course, fluff is mutable, and with a bit of effort, you can justify damn near any discipline as being dragon-like.

Desert Wind: I BREATHE FIRE!
Diamond Mind: Dragons play the long game, and they're always the ones in control. This includes heavy amounts of self-control, which is what Diamond Mind is all about. Plus, the save replacers are great ways to mimic draconic resistances and immunities, and Hearing the Air gives you a measure of the infamous draconic senses.
Setting Sun: Dragons are tricky buggers. The face they present to an enemy is just what they want the enemy to see. If that's an appearance of strength, so be it; if that's a false appearance of weakness, so be it. Setting Sun is all about luring in your enemy with false appearances and revealing strengths where none were apparent. (Your mindset here is less "giant dragon curled up on a hoard" and more "canny dragon pretending to be a humanoid for its own purposes.")
Shadow Hand: Not all dragons are sneaky, but some of them (especially black dragons) definitely are. Shadow Hand is also one of the most overtly magical disciplines, so you can play up the "dragon magic" angle here. It's also got a lot of debuffs, so you can debuff your enemy and remind them how puny and fragile they are compared to your draconic majesty.
Stone Dragon: Who is tougher than a dragon? NO ONE IS TOUGHER THAN A DRAGON!
Tiger Claw: Claw/claw/bite/wing/wing/tail! Dragons pounce from above and use way more attacks than they have any right to have!

With some work, we could justify the other disciplines as well, but since you're going for a Swordsage, let's stick with the Swordsage disciplines.

You're in a tough spot for picking a race that may or may not end up turned into a dragonborn. You could go for something bland like a half-elf, so that going dragonborn would be an unequivocal step up, but that may or may not be your idea of a good time. Kobolds can make acceptable Swordsages, and they don't need to go dragonborn to be draconic (especially, though not only, if you take Dragonwrought). I guess just find a race that has acceptable stats (because you do keep your stats, modified by the dragonborn's +2 CON –2 DEX) and that doesn't have anything you're going to rely on too heavily once you go dragonborn. (Going elf would actually let dragonborn's stats cancel out entirely, if that's something you care about.)

Overall, this sounds like it's more a job for fluff than anything else. As long as you keep talking about your draconic aspirations and inspirations, you can totally justify whatever you do as being dragon-themed, and you can just build damn near whatever kind of Swordsage you like and have fun with it.

[Troacctid]

Raptoran is a good race if you're not sure whether or not you'll go Dragonborn. They're a solid race on their own, and their best racial feature, the wings, carries over after the transformation. The +10 racial bonus to jump will also be handy for any Tiger Claw maneuvers you end up taking.

[Darrin]

I will also note that I cannot start as a Dragonborn, but may well be able to convince my DM to let me become one part way through, so things with decent racial traits that may get nuked(humans for instance) I would like to try to avoid them so I don't lose too much.

There are some quirks to the "Mechanics of Rebirth" that you might want to discuss with your DM, notably this sentence:

"If your original race granted you a nonspecific bonus feat (such as the one gained by a human at 1st level), any feat can be lost, so long as it is not a prerequisite for another feat you have."

What does this mean? Well, it means humans do not automatically lose the bonus feat they got as a racial feature. If you have some other feat that you gained via a class ability, such as Ranger's Track or Endurance, you can lose that feat instead.

Swordsages don't normally get any bonus feats as class features, but there is an unarmed variant, and although it's not strictly RAW, most people give Unarmed Swordsages Improved Unarmed Strike as part of the monk's unarmed strike class ability. You lose light armor proficiency, but if your light armor already has an ACP of zero, you can wear it without proficiency and take no penalties.

Something else you may want to note... if you look at the last paragraph on page 10 of Races of the Dragon, there's another "Special:" option that lets you swap one of your existing feats for Dragon Wings or Dragon Tail. If you take the Heart aspect for a breath weapon, Dragon Wings puts you one feat away from getting a flight speed anyway (Improved Dragon Wings). If you take Dragon Tail, you can add Prehensile Tail later to open up Multi-Weapon Fighting.

[torrasque666]

Raptoran is a good race if you're not sure whether or not you'll go Dragonborn. They're a solid race on their own, and their best racial feature, the wings, carries over after the transformation. The +10 racial bonus to jump will also be handy for any Tiger Claw maneuvers you end up taking.
Raptoran actually does sound interesting. Thanks for the advice.

Well, Desert Wind is going to be the most thematically appropriate discipline to focus on. It's not the strongest discipline by a long shot, but it's still decent if your GM doesn't go overboard giving everything and its brother fire resistance. (Yes, fire resistance is very common among default monsters, which is why you have to know your GM going into it. If your GM loves humanoids with class levels, for instance, fire resistance probably won't come up that much. If he or she favors demons, for example, then Desert Wind is just going to be a waste of time.) So I guess you could talk to your GM and see if he or she is willing to work with you by not making every other enemy you fight resistant or immune to your main tactic, or if he or she is willing to let you alter Desert Wind to make it less fiery (either by letting you swap the element, or by making it half unresistable like Flame Strike, or by letting you burn a feat on making it fully unresistable, or whatever).

I'd have to talk with him about letting me get some fire damage through as he does love demons.


Swordsages don't normally get any bonus feats as class features, but there is an unarmed variant, and although it's not strictly RAW, most people give Unarmed Swordsages Improved Unarmed Strike as part of the monk's unarmed strike class ability. You lose light armor proficiency, but if your light armor already has an ACP of zero, you can wear it without proficiency and take no penalties.
I'm not going unarmed swordsage(in fact, would probably wield a pick for raisins.) and my armor will eventually have an ACP because Platinum Armor.
Side note: it can't even be called a proper variant. its only mentioned in passing unlike all the other official variants which are a bit more detailed.

[Greenish]

Side note: it can't even be called a proper variant. its only mentioned in passing unlike all the other official variants which are a bit more detailed.All other official variants are more detailed than unarmed swordsage? Huh.

[Marlowe]

Just a little point: Devils are immune to fire. Demons (except for Balors) are only resistant. And some of the Desert Wind stuff lands enough bonus damage to burn through that. Inferno Blade (admittedly a higher-end maneuver) gives 3d6+your class level (and if you've got this, that's at least 13) extra fire damage per hit. The average Demon with Fire Resistance 10 is going to be feeling that less than something without resistance but he's still going to be feeling it.

I wouldn't fill all my readied slots with Desert Wind strikes, but there's some nice things in there.