Ghost Touch and Ghostly Equipment

[Telonius]

I posted this on the Simple RAW thread sometime last night, but it looks like it's a bit more complicated than I thought it was at first glance. (Either that, or I'm not patient enough to get a full answer :smallwink:).

The question is about a Ghost. When the base creature was alive, one of its "prized possessions" was a Ghost Touch weapon. Now, that weapon is part of its Ghostly Equipment.

Relevant rules points:

* A Ghost Touch weapon that is part of a Ghost's Ghostly Equipment doesn't have the 50% miss chance that a regular magic weapon has. Under Ghostly Equipment:

When a ghost forms, all its equipment and carried items usually become ethereal along with it. In addition, the ghost retains 2d4 items that it particularly valued in life (provided they are not in another creature’s possession). The equipment works normally on the Ethereal Plane but passes harmlessly through material objects or creatures. A weapon of +1 or better magical enhancement, however, can harm material creatures when the ghost manifests, but any such attack has a 50% chance to fail unless the weapon is a ghost touch weapon (just as magic weapons can fail to harm the ghost).

* A regular Ghost Touch weapon can be picked up and moved around by an incorporeal creature. From Ghost Touch:

A ghost touch weapon deals damage normally against incorporeal creatures, regardless of its bonus. (An incorporeal creature’s 50% chance to avoid damage does not apply to attacks with ghost touch weapons.) The weapon can be picked up and moved by an incorporeal creature at any time. A manifesting ghost can wield the weapon against corporeal foes. Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.

* Ghosts' attacks usually ignore armor. Under Manifestation, we have:

its own attacks pass through armor.


Given all that, how would a Ghost Touch weapon wielded by a Ghost as part of its Ghostly Equipment, strike its enemy? As a regular corporeal attack, against the target's regular AC? Or as a Touch Attack, ignoring the target's armor?

(Note, that this is specifically about a Ghost Touch weapon that's part of Ghostly Equipment. I'm pretty sure that if a manifesting Ghost picked up a Ghost Touch weapon that happened to be lying around, it would act as a regular attack; but even there, I'm not 100% certain).

So, how would you rule it?

[DreganHiregard]

The easy way to rule it is that the weapon deals regular damage to it's foe and can strike material creatures normally. The basic idea of a ghost touch weapon is that it is physical to both incorporeal and material creatures at the same time. It doesn't shift back and forth so it should remain physical the whole time. But without a strength bonus the ghost isn't going to be dealing much damage with their sword.

Also, if it matters, savage species had a sidebar that indicated any regular magic item can be made ghost touch, so that a ghost can wear and use it normally, for a 20% increase in the price. Hope that helps!

[Telonius]

But without a strength bonus the ghost isn't going to be dealing much damage with their sword.

Well, if he's the ghost of a high-level Rogue with the Craven feat, that might change things ... :sabine:

[Darrin]

It doesn't shift back and forth so it should remain physical the whole time.

Actually, it does shift back and forth. From the DMG:

"Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder."

I'm not sure how that helps here, though. The text says ghost touch weapons can be picked up by incorporeal creatures at any time, but in the very next sentence it says the ghost has to manifest in order to wield it as a weapon against corporeal foes.

[Necroticplague]

I'm not sure how that helps here, though. The text says ghost touch weapons can be picked up by incorporeal creatures at any time, but in the very next sentence it says the ghost has to manifest in order to wield it as a weapon against corporeal foes.

How are those contradictory? A non-manifested ghost is Ethereal, not Incorporeal. So they have to Manifest (become Incorporeal) to use a ghost touch weapon on a Material target.

[Telonius]

Maybe leave aside the Ghost Touch issue for a moment - let's say it's just a +1 weapon as part of the Ghostly Equipment. That would target the enemy's touch AC, since it falls under the "attacks pass through armor" clause, right?

[Darrin]

How are those contradictory? A non-manifested ghost is Ethereal, not Incorporeal. So they have to Manifest (become Incorporeal) to use a ghost touch weapon on a Material target.

A non-manifested ghost gains the Incorporeal subtype just by being a ghost. It retains this subtype regardless of where it manifests. I thought this meant that an ethereal un-manifested ghost could pick up ghost touch items, but after rereading the Ghost Touch entry, I don't think that works. Ghost touch items can be either corporeal or incorporeal, but at no point do they become ethereal. So a ghost would have to manifest to pick up a ghost touch weapon and wield it.

The exception would be a weapon made out of riverine (Stormwrack), as force effects generally co-exist on both the material and ethereal planes. However, this feature is not explicitly listed as part of the properties of riverine (it appears the designer didn't think all that much about the consequences of making weapons out of force effects).

[Psyren]

If you are ethereal, you cannot affect the material plane, period. Only the CWar Ninja gets around this that I know of.

To strike foes, ghosts have to manifest; that puts them on this plane, but they will still be incorporeal. Their attacks will pass through the target's armor, but they themselves will be vulnerable to magic attacks, ghost touch weapons, force effects etc. (Well, they were vulnerable to force effects before too, but you get the idea.)

[Darrin]

If you are ethereal, you cannot affect the material plane, period. Only the CWar Ninja gets around this that I know of.

Your opinion on riverine, then (other than the designer should have put some more thought into it)? It's essentially a wall of force shaped like an object. Wall of force exists on the ethereal plane, so an ethereal un-manifested ghost could pick it up and interact with it. This would presumably also move it around on the material plane.

[Psyren]

Your opinion on riverine, then (other than the designer should have put some more thought into it)? It's essentially a wall of force shaped like an object. Wall of force exists on the ethereal plane, so an ethereal un-manifested ghost could pick it up and interact with it. This would presumably also move it around on the material plane.

No - that's a one-way trip. If you are ethereal and you cast a wall of force, it will not exist on the material plane. Similarly, an ethereal sword - even one made of riverine - cannot touch anything material. SRD:


A force effect originating on the Material Plane extends onto the Ethereal Plane, so that a wall of force blocks an ethereal creature, and a magic missile can strike one (provided the spellcaster can see the ethereal target). Gaze effects and abjurations also extend from the Material Plane to the Ethereal Plane. None of these effects extend from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane.

[Telonius]

A non-manifested ghost gains the Incorporeal subtype just by being a ghost. It retains this subtype regardless of where it manifests. I thought this meant that an ethereal un-manifested ghost could pick up ghost touch items, but after rereading the Ghost Touch entry, I don't think that works. Ghost touch items can be either corporeal or incorporeal, but at no point do they become ethereal. So a ghost would have to manifest to pick up a ghost touch weapon and wield it.

The exception would be a weapon made out of riverine (Stormwrack), as force effects generally co-exist on both the material and ethereal planes. However, this feature is not explicitly listed as part of the properties of riverine (it appears the designer didn't think all that much about the consequences of making weapons out of force effects).

The other exception is if it is part of the Ghostly Equipment - by the description, all the Ghost's gear becomes ethereal with it. So if he had a Ghost Touch weapon on him when he died (or if he usually had one, or however it works when a ghost forms), I'd think it goes ethereal when he does.

[Rijan_Sai]

Your opinion on riverine, then (other than the designer should have put some more thought into it)? It's essentially a wall of force shaped like an object. Wall of force exists on the ethereal plane, so an ethereal un-manifested ghost could pick it up and interact with it. This would presumably also move it around on the material plane.


No - that's a one-way trip. If you are ethereal and you cast a wall of force, it will not exist on the material plane. Similarly, an ethereal sword - even one made of riverine - cannot touch anything material. SRD:

Not 100% sure, but I think Darrin is talking about the possibility of a material riverine sword being picked up and wielded by an ethereal ghost (or other ethereal creature, for that matter.) Would the sword immediately become ethereal itself, and thus unable to affect the Material Plane, or would it exist in both worlds still, and appear as though the sword is "wielding itself," (a sort of poltergeist effect, if you will?)

[Psyren]

Not 100% sure, but I think Darrin is talking about the possibility of a material riverine sword being picked up and wielded by an ethereal ghost (or other ethereal creature, for that matter.) Would the sword immediately become ethereal itself, and thus unable to affect the Material Plane, or would it exist in both worlds still, and appear as though the sword is "wielding itself," (a sort of poltergeist effect, if you will?)

An ethereal ghost cannot affect anything material for the reasons stated above. He must manifest, which will put him on the material plane (but still incorporeal), which in turn makes him more vulnerable.

[Necroticplague]

There is, however, a weapon that has a blade that always extends to both planes (while its hilt only exists in one), that you could theoretically have a ghost use to plink people to death from the opposite side of the planar boundary. Expensive, though.

[Psyren]

There is, however, a weapon that has a blade that always extends to both planes (while its hilt only exists in one), that you could theoretically have a ghost use to plink people to death from the opposite side of the planar boundary. Expensive, though.

Name and source?

[Necroticplague]

Name and source?

My memory is a bit foggy, but it's either Ethereal Reaver or Ethereal Ripper, from Complete Psionic.

[Psyren]

My memory is a bit foggy, but it's either Ethereal Reaver or Ethereal Ripper, from Complete Psionic.

Ahh - Yes, that one does specifically let you strike from ethereal to material. But since the blade exists in both places, it looks like it will be subject to the target's full AC (since the blade is material.)

[Darrin]

Riverine is a force effect, so it exists on both planes, same as the ethereal reaver.

Well... Maybe not "Same as", and riverine never actually says its a force effect, but it should still exist on both planes.

[Psyren]

Riverine is a force effect, so it exists on both planes, same as the ethereal reaver.

Well... Maybe not "Same as", and riverine never actually says its a force effect, but it should still exist on both planes.

As I cited above, force effects are only one way. The ethereal reaver specifically overrides that provision, but force effects in general do not.

To recap:
force on material = material + ethereal
force on ethereal = ethereal only

[Amidus Drexel]

As I cited above, force effects are only one way. The ethereal reaver specifically overrides that provision, but force effects in general do not.

To recap:
force on material = material + ethereal
force on ethereal = ethereal only

I think you've missed the point of what they're trying to say.

The scenario as posited is:

Unmanifested ghost on ethereal plane.
Weapon made of force on material (which, as you said, extends onto the ethereal plane).

Since the force effect explicitly extends to the ethereal plane, what happens when the ghost picks up the weapon?

[Psyren]

I think you've missed the point of what they're trying to say.

The scenario as posited is:

Unmanifested ghost on ethereal plane.
Weapon made of force on material (which, as you said, extends onto the ethereal plane).

Since the force effect explicitly extends to the ethereal plane, what happens when the ghost picks up the weapon?

If the weapon is on the material, then it should work - however, being material, it will have to deal with material defenses (armor, natural and shield AC.)

[Telonius]

So that's good for the Riverine. But for a Ghost Touch weapon - ? The more I'm thinking about it, the more I'm leaning towards Ghostly Equipment actually being part of the ghost (since it will disappear if a person gets a hold of the actual physical weapon). So that would lean towards the weapon striking vs Touch AC, since a ghost's attacks usually do. My big sticking point is that the weapon might be simultaneously corporeal and incorporeal - incorporeal for being part of the ghost (and striking vs touch AC) and corporeal for not having the 50% miss chance.

[Telonius]

One last bump on the subject. Any other suggestions for how to rule the attack - vs regular AC, or vs touch AC?

[Firest Kathon]

The physical attacks of incorporeal creatures (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#incorporeality) ignore material armor, even magic armor, unless it is made of force (such as mage armor or bracers of armor) or has the ghost touch ability.
So a ghost touch weapon would strike as a corporal weapon against "normal" AC, without a miss chance. However, given ...

Essentially, a ghost touch weapon counts as either corporeal or incorporeal at any given time, whichever is more beneficial to the wielder.
... I think the Ghost could choose whether the attack should strike as a corporeal weapon (against "normal" AC, no miss chance) or as an incorporeal weapon (against touch AC, 50% miss chance). Using it as an incorporeal weapon would rarely be beneficial, though (I think only if the armor's AC bonus is higher than the Ghost's total attack bonus).

... its own attacks pass through armor.
This general rule is overridden by the special exception of Ghost Touch weapons.