Make sure I've got these rewards in order!

[Malimar]

ATTN: my players: Party A: you can read this, you already got the best reward. Party B: it would be nice of you if you were to avert your eyes from this thread for now.





So! I've got a situation where one of six rewards can be granted by a dungeon, depending on how many keys are retrieved and used at once in a certain area. You only get the best reward for your keys; e.g. if you use one key and get the first reward, then you use two keys, the first reward vanishes and you get the second reward instead. I want to make sure I have these rewards in order from least valuable to most valuable, so they correspond correctly to the number of keys used at once. i.e., #5 should be better than #4, because #5 requires more effort to obtain than #4.


500 gold (per party member)
Inherent +1 bonus to worst ability score
bonus feat: if your wis is greater than your int, you get Ancestral Knowledge (RoS); if your int is greater than your wis, you get Earth Sense (RoS)
bonus feat of your choice that you qualify for
Inherent +1 bonus to all ability scores
Choose any one domain. You gain the granted power of that domain, and: If you are a cleric, you gain it as an extra domain. If you are a non-cleric caster or manifester, the spells from the domain are added to your class list/spellbook/spells known/powers known, at the same level as the domain spell. For all characters, any spell which your caster/manifester level is too low to cast/manifest may be used as a spell-like ability 1/day (CL=HD), provided your hit dice are at least twice the spell's level. Save DCs for these SLAs are charisma-based.


Because a party has already acquired #6 in reward for using all 6 keys, it's important that #6 be the best. If any of the others are strictly better than #6, I'd appreciate suggestions for a replacement for one of the rewards earlier in the list to make this work out properly.

[(Un)Inspired]

I think 4 is a fair bit better than 5.

[P.F.]

I think 4 is a fair bit better than 5.

Talk about apples to oranges!

If I already took a dump on one of my stats, would I rather have 500 gold? Probably not, but #'s 1 and 2 are near tied for worst. Earth Sense or Ancestral Knowledge are not a feats I would select on purpose, but probably better than having one slightly less dumpy stat.

+1 inherent bonus to all stats is pretty sweet, but it's pretty highly variable by character depending on their relative MADdness and odd/even distribution. What's more, it won't stack with future (presumably higher) inherent bonuses, so that one kind of fizzles out over time. Arguably a feat has more staying power and versatility, but in terms of total value, it's probably less, so #'s 4 and 5 are pretty close.

If I had my 'pick of the litter' I would choose #6, so you got that one right for sure. The better granted powers alone are often worth as much as a feat, and the added spells per day / spell on your list / SLA's are just too good to pass up.

[Zaq]

I agree that a bonus feat is more valuable than a +1 to all stats. That's for two reasons.

First, as has been mentioned, your odd/even distribution might make some or all of those +1s pointless, so you might end up with the stats you don't really care about hitting the next breakpoint while your valued stats stay effectively the same.

Second, even if all of your stats are odd to start with, a feat (depending on your build) can be a lot more valuable to a character than just some higher numbers. At most, having higher stats just means you're one point better at doing things, but a feat can open up a totally new trick for you, or it can make a trick that you care about significantly stronger than one point better. It can mean that an avenue of optimization opens up as many as three levels earlier than it already would. It might mean that you don't have to make a dip you were planning on making, so you can hit a PrC faster or keep advancing another class you might have had to put on pause. After all, as they say, if you're comfortable with the number of feats you have, you're not optimizing enough.

I could probably, if I tried, concoct a character for whom +1 to all stats was better than a bonus feat (especially a bonus feat taken after level 1, when you've got prereqs out of the way and can take the good stuff), but I'd have to try. Out of the box, nearly any character is going to be better off with a bonus feat.

Would this change if it was a +2 to all stats, thereby ensuring that every ability score is one point better? Eh, that's a tough call. Some characters would really benefit from that, while some classes would say "that's nice, but I'd rather have a feat." But if you're relying on the characters having odd-numbered scores in the stats they care about anyway, that's a significantly riskier gamble, and I'd rate the feat higher.

Of course, you could mitigate the problem by allowing the players to choose their top choice or any lower choice. It does mean that they have to do well, but if they do, they're not going to end up regretting finding any keys.

[Malimar]

Interesting, interesting. I think I'd been falling into the "bigger numbers = bigger yay" newbie trap -- I wasn't even certain that +1 to all stats wasn't better than #6, but you've all reassured me on that score, and now I'm glad I asked.

What if #5 was "Your choice of +1 to all stats or +2 to a single stat of your choice"? What if it was some kind of bonus other than an Inherent bonus -- Insight, say, or even Untyped -- so it stacks with most other sources of stat gain? Would the bonus feat still be better?

Also: I allow up to two flaws, so people aren't hurting for feats quite as much as they normally would. Does that change the answer any?


(I have considered letting players pick whichever they want up to the best one available to them, but that could get a little complicated, and this particular room is already the source of endless miscommunications, so I kind of want to keep things as simple for the players as possible.)

[eggynack]

What if #5 was "Your choice of +1 to all stats or +2 to a single stat of your choice"? What if it was some kind of bonus other than an Inherent bonus -- Insight, say, or even Untyped -- so it stacks with most other sources of stat gain? Would the bonus feat still be better?
Yes. As Zaq correctly noted, a feat remains likely better up to and possibly including the point where it's a +2 untyped bonus to all stats. It's just your classic qualitative over quantitative comparison. Yeah, some builds would want the pile of +2's, absolutely, but some builds would definitely want the feat.


Also: I allow up to two flaws, so people aren't hurting for feats quite as much as they normally would. Does that change the answer any?
Not especially. Feats are pretty much always great if you know what you're doing with them, and it takes a really long while before you start hitting diminishing returns. Like, sometimes people try to make an argument using the idea that fighters have more feats than they need as a premise (either as an argument against their power level, or as an argument in favor of a weak feat due to low opportunity cost, and maybe a couple of others), and they tend to be mistaken, because even at that level of feat saturation on that narrow a list, the fighter still always wants more feats than they have, and can always use their feats well. That remains true even at a pretty massive number of feats.

[Malimar]

Very interesting. Thanks for the analysis! Very helpful.

So I'm quite convinced, switching #4 and #5. And I'm changing the stat bonuses to insight bonuses, so they stack slightly better (and, perhaps more importantly, fit the theme of the room a bit better).


500 gold per party member
permanent non-dispellable +1 insight bonus to worst ability score
bonus feat: wis>int Ancestral Knowledge (RoS), int>wis Earth Sense (RoS)
permanent non-dispellable +1 insight bonus to all ability scores OR +2 to one ability score of your choice
bonus feat of your choice that you qualify for
Choose any one domain. You gain the granted power of that domain, and etc.

[endur]

Very interesting. Thanks for the analysis! Very helpful.

So I'm quite convinced, switching #4 and #5. And I'm changing the stat bonuses to insight bonuses, so they stack slightly better (and, perhaps more importantly, fit the theme of the room a bit better).


500 gold per party member
permanent non-dispellable +1 insight bonus to worst ability score
bonus feat: wis>int Ancestral Knowledge (RoS), int>wis Earth Sense (RoS)
permanent non-dispellable +1 insight bonus to all ability scores OR +2 to one ability score of your choice
bonus feat of your choice that you qualify for
Choose any one domain. You gain the granted power of that domain, and etc.


I definitely agree on 6>5>3>2>1 ... I'm not sure where 4 (+1 to all ability or +2 to one ability of your choice) belongs. 4> 6 for some characters. For other characters, 5>4.

[Sewercop]

It would say that it depends on the level of the characters.. Some have diminishing returns the higher level you are.

Edit, but for most parts I agree on the reward, Maybe let them choose a lesser reward if it suits them better then a high reward?

[icefractal]

+2 insight to a stat is worth more than a bonus feat for most characters. Not all characters, but in general. +2 inherent is worse if the game eventually goes high level enough that people can buy inherent bonuses, but otherwise might still be better.

[eggynack]

+2 insight to a stat is worth more than a bonus feat for most characters. Not all characters, but in general.
I can't think of all that many builds where I'd prefer the +2. That feat is usually going to be significantly more useful, especially as you're picking it up later in the game.