Is the 19 or 18 improved critical from Champion a natural 20 on the attack?

[Balor777]

Ok guys, lets say you have +4 to the attack roll and you try to attack a target with 24AC.
You roll 19 on the d20. Its 23 vs 24 AC you should miss,but champion deals critical on 19.
What happens?
You miss?
You deal critical?
You deal normal damage?

[mephnick]

You crit'd that thing in the face. Same as rolling a 20.

Edit: My bad, RAW it is a miss. This is a stupid rule and I would allow it to be a crit. I've played 20 years without realizing you still had to hit the AC.

The more you know.

[EvanescentHero]

I'd rule that you still miss. In 3.P, when weapons had different numbers they could crit on (19-20 was common), you still had to land the hit to crit. The real question is why are you fighting things you need natural 20s to hit?

[hawklost]

Only a 20 auto hits. Everything else has a chance to hit.

So with Improved Crit an 18-19 will not always hit (although with Bounded Accuracy this shouldn't really come up)

[heavyfuel]

Ok guys, lets say you have +4 to the attack roll and you try to attack a target with 24AC.
You roll 19 on the d20. Its 23 vs 24 AC you should miss,but champion deals critical on 19.
What happens?
You miss?
You deal critical?
You deal normal damage?

RAW? You miss. You only get an auto-hit on a nat 20, as per PHB p.194. Critical hits (p.196) aren't an auto-hit

Personally, I'd say let him have it. Champion is weaker than both EK and BM

[Myzz]

yeah, we've always played anything that crits is a hit, even if it normally wouldn't.

I would think that the specific beats general would apply here. Crit being a specific type of hit, if you crit you must therefore have hit!

/added via edit
the only applicable section I see in the PHB is the critical section, which does not say the attack must hit. It says if you score a critical hit: which rolls of 18,19 and 20 are if you have expanded them out. Under the relevant abilities it simply says you know score a critical hit on19... and then later on 18. I would point out that no where besides in the section on rolling a 1 or 20 does it even imply that a crit could be a miss. 20 being an auto hit an in addition a critical hit. Since 20 is the only critical to begin with...

I'd think via RAW, since critical hits now occur on rolls of 18, 19 or 20 (if you have those abilities), RAW says you hit since it was a Critical Hit it has to be a hit. /end edit

[Balor777]

I'd rule that you still miss. In 3.P, when weapons had different numbers they could crit on (19-20 was common), you still had to land the hit to crit. The real question is why are you fighting things you need natural 20s to hit?
Lets say you use GWF or sharpshooter -5+10 on a dragon.PCs should never know the monster AC.They may learn it the hard way tho :)


RAW? You miss. You only get an auto-hit on a nat 20, as per PHB p.194. Critical hits (p.196) aren't an auto-hit

Personally, I'd say let him have it. Champion is weaker than both EK and BM
Thats what i had in mind too.Altho a half-orc barbar2/Champ3+ with a greataxe will do serious damage, but he needs that recless attack to double the crit chance.
Without recless attack+half orc he is ..meh.

[ProphetSword]

According to Mike Mearls, it's a hit. This is what he had to say when asked about it several months ago:

For the champions expanded crit range, are 18-19 automatically a hit? Or are they only crit if attack hits?
You get the auto hit and double damage. -M

This makes sense when you look at the terminology in the book, which is this:
"... your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20."

The definition of "score" in this case means to "secure or be successful at," as in "You score a goal." So, we can probably read it as: "your weapon attacks successfully secure a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20."

The word "score" is used again during the description of the Superior Critical.

I'm sure someone will debate this, but this is how I play it at my table, and the confirmation from Mike Mearls is enough to make it RAW for me.

[heavyfuel]

According to Mike Mearls, it's a hit. This is what he had to say when asked about it several months ago:

For the champions expanded crit range, are 18-19 automatically a hit? Or are they only crit if attack hits?
You get the auto hit and double damage. -M

I wonder if these rulings will ever get RAW status like they did in PF. While they don't, they're still just one of many possible rullings

[Malifice]

According to Mike Mearls, it's a hit. This is what he had to say when asked about it several months ago:

For the champions expanded crit range, are 18-19 automatically a hit? Or are they only crit if attack hits?
You get the auto hit and double damage. -M

This makes sense when you look at the terminology in the book, which is this:
"... your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20."

The definition of "score" in this case means to "secure or be successful at," as in "You score a goal." So, we can probably read it as: "your weapon attacks successfully secure a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20."

The word "score" is used again during the description of the Superior Critical.

I'm sure someone will debate this, but this is how I play it at my table, and the confirmation from Mike Mearls is enough to make it RAW for me.

Yeah this.

Critical hits are (by definition) hits.

If you critically hit on a 18-20, and you roll an 18, you critically hit.

[mephnick]

Plus, it wouldn't really make sense to keep the AC rule when the goal of 5e is simplicity. A crit is a crit, easy-peasy.

[Easy_Lee]

Plus, it wouldn't really make sense to keep the AC rule when the goal of 5e is simplicity. A crit is a crit, easy-peasy.

This and champion fighters need all the help they can get, according to most on these forums. With this ruling in mind, I think champions are in a good position.

[AbyssStalker]

Just apply it for any monster that can conceivably do it and it is fair, like if a creature had class levels giving such crit range.

[RedMage125]

My question is how a Champion who is high enough level to have the 18-20 crit feature only has a +4 to hit?

I'm AFB atm, but isn't his proficiency bonus alone higher than that at that level? Not to mention, where are his STR/DEX scores.

+4 or +5 to hit is common at level 1, but you don't throw AC 24 monsters (higher than the AC of the most Ancient of Dragons) against level 1 PCs (who also don't have the 18-20 crit range yet).

[Easy_Lee]

My question is how a Champion who is high enough level to have the 18-20 crit feature only has a +4 to hit?

I'm AFB atm, but isn't his proficiency bonus alone higher than that at that level? Not to mention, where are his STR/DEX scores.

+4 or +5 to hit is common at level 1, but you don't throw AC 24 monsters (higher than the AC of the most Ancient of Dragons) against level 1 PCs (who also don't have the 18-20 crit range yet).

By the point where champions get their highest crit, I believe you are correct. Fighters tend to max out their attribute boost earlier than other classes due to bonus ASIs, so that's a +5 mod from attribute on top of prof in all likelihood.

[ProphetSword]

My question is how a Champion who is high enough level to have the 18-20 crit feature only has a +4 to hit?

I'm AFB atm, but isn't his proficiency bonus alone higher than that at that level? Not to mention, where are his STR/DEX scores.

+4 or +5 to hit is common at level 1, but you don't throw AC 24 monsters (higher than the AC of the most Ancient of Dragons) against level 1 PCs (who also don't have the 18-20 crit range yet).

It's possible that the original question was just asking what would happen versus using an example that actually did happen. Bounded accuracy will probably make it a moot point most of the time anyway.

[EvanescentHero]

According to Mike Mearls, it's a hit. This is what he had to say when asked about it several months ago:

For the champions expanded crit range, are 18-19 automatically a hit? Or are they only crit if attack hits?
You get the auto hit and double damage. -M

This makes sense when you look at the terminology in the book, which is this:
"... your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20."

The definition of "score" in this case means to "secure or be successful at," as in "You score a goal." So, we can probably read it as: "your weapon attacks successfully secure a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20."

The word "score" is used again during the description of the Superior Critical.

I'm sure someone will debate this, but this is how I play it at my table, and the confirmation from Mike Mearls is enough to make it RAW for me.

Well, that settles that, then. Good to know for the future. This is a pretty niche case anyway, so I'm fine with the rule as clarified.

[Myzz]

My question is how a Champion who is high enough level to have the 18-20 crit feature only has a +4 to hit?

I'm AFB atm, but isn't his proficiency bonus alone higher than that at that level? Not to mention, where are his STR/DEX scores.

+4 or +5 to hit is common at level 1, but you don't throw AC 24 monsters (higher than the AC of the most Ancient of Dragons) against level 1 PCs (who also don't have the 18-20 crit range yet).

Great Weapon Master -5 Hit, +6 Prof Bonus, and only +3 to hit from stat (for whatever reason) = +4 to Hit =)


Likes feats way too much

Likes to be sneaky so uses dex too

Is multiclassed and so MAD (lol)

Figures GWM gives him all the plus damage he needs, while to hit off proficiency and magic bonuses are sufficient...

Suffering stat drain

A ton of weird and unforeseeable reasons

[RedMage125]

Great Weapon Master -5 Hit, +6 Prof Bonus, and only +3 to hit from stat (for whatever reason) = +4 to Hit =)


Likes feats way too much

Likes to be sneaky so uses dex too

Is multiclassed and so MAD (lol)

Figures GWM gives him all the plus damage he needs, while to hit off proficiency and magic bonuses are sufficient...

Suffering stat drain

A ton of weird and unforeseeable reasons

In which case, he'd do well to not take the -5 to hit in the future, right? +10 damage when you hit is not worth the ZERO damage you do when you miss. Better to hit and not get the bonus damage than to miss.

[VertDeLion]

According to Mike Mearls, it's a hit. This is what he had to say when asked about it several months ago:

For the champions expanded crit range, are 18-19 automatically a hit? Or are they only crit if attack hits?
You get the auto hit and double damage. -M

This makes sense when you look at the terminology in the book, which is this:
"... your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20."

The definition of "score" in this case means to "secure or be successful at," as in "You score a goal." So, we can probably read it as: "your weapon attacks successfully secure a critical hit on a roll of 19 or 20."

The word "score" is used again during the description of the Superior Critical.

I'm sure someone will debate this, but this is how I play it at my table, and the confirmation from Mike Mearls is enough to make it RAW for me.

This reply is a year late to the party, but I just wanted to add this in since I noticed this a while ago, and I've been hunting multiple other forums for confirmation.
From what I've heard, Mike Mearls has had a history of answering questions only to draw more confusion based on his rulings. In the PHB's section on 'ROLLING 1 OR 20' it states:
"If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. In addition, the attack is a critical hit, as explained later in this chapter."
Based on the PHB's wording, it identifies a "guaranteed hit" as a separate instance from "critical hit". Thusly, using that wording, an improved critical range of 18 and 19 will critically hit, but only if the attack roll beats the target's AC.

[MeeposFire]

This reply is a year late to the party, but I just wanted to add this in since I noticed this a while ago, and I've been hunting multiple other forums for confirmation.
From what I've heard, Mike Mearls has had a history of answering questions only to draw more confusion based on his rulings. In the PHB's section on 'ROLLING 1 OR 20' it states:
"If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. In addition, the attack is a critical hit, as explained later in this chapter."
Based on the PHB's wording, it identifies a "guaranteed hit" as a separate instance from "critical hit". Thusly, using that wording, an improved critical range of 18 and 19 will critically hit, but only if the attack roll beats the target's AC.

Careful the term used in the champion ability is "score" a critical hit. From its use in the rules to score a critical hit is used the same as getting a hit. For instance for the assassin they get an auto critical hit in certain situations. Notice in that descriptions it says "any hit you score" which is a way to show that "score" is a way to say you have hit. IN the champion ability is says you score a critical hit on certain rolls. Also notice in the rules about critical hits it says "when you score a critical hit" so the use of score means that if you score it has hit and taken effect. Also notice that sometimes like with the assassin scoring is dependent on rolling a hit but in other situations such as the champion scoring is based off of an event (in this case a roll of 18 or 19) which is not dependent on actually beating the AC value. So it appears that the stipulations on how you score determine whether a critical hit ability hits automatically or not.

So in essence you are correct that the ability to auto hit and a critical hit are not automatically synonymous however in this case since the champion ability says it has scored a critical hit then that menas you ahve hit regardless.

[Arkhios]

This reply is a year late to the party, but I just wanted to add this in since I noticed this a while ago, and I've been hunting multiple other forums for confirmation.
From what I've heard, Mike Mearls has had a history of answering questions only to draw more confusion based on his rulings. In the PHB's section on 'ROLLING 1 OR 20' it states:
"If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target's AC. In addition, the attack is a critical hit, as explained later in this chapter."
Based on the PHB's wording, it identifies a "guaranteed hit" as a separate instance from "critical hit". Thusly, using that wording, an improved critical range of 18 and 19 will critically hit, but only if the attack roll beats the target's AC.

I'm fairly sure that, in the light of 5th edition aiming for smooth rules, the design intent of champion's crit is as Mearls put it. Instead of Improved Critical adding something to "natural 20 is a critical hit", it would actually replace it with "natural 19-20 is a critical hit" for champion with appropriately high level.

If it would still require to beat the AC, it would be way more complicated. I'd say it's intended to work as simply as possible, ergo natural 19-20 is both a hit regardless of AC and a crit.

[Gwendol]

If it would still require to beat the AC, it would be way more complicated. I'd say it's intended to work as simply as possible, ergo natural 19-20 is both a hit regardless of AC and a crit.

The Champion ability is clearly meant to expand the range in which to score hits regardless of target AC. 5e did away with threatening critical hits and confirming rolls. As explained in the quoted part of the rules, 5e equates critical hits with hitting the target regardless of modifiers or the target AC.

[MeeposFire]

The Champion ability is clearly meant to expand the range in which to score hits regardless of target AC. 5e did away with threatening critical hits and confirming rolls. As explained in the quoted part of the rules, 5e equates critical hits with hitting the target regardless of modifiers or the target AC.

Careful there are abilities that have critical hits that require you to hit for them to work and others where the critical hit is automatically a hit. Remember the assassin only scores a critical if he hits but the champion scores just by rolling a 19 regardless of whether that should hit or not.

That is the key. Each use of the ability tells you how and when they score the critical hit. Score is the the operative term to look for as it seems that is the designers way in the rules to tell you how each critical hit ability works. The assassin scores after a hit under special circumstances. The champion scores on a roll of 19. A score is a hit (though they never go right out and define that term if you read all the times the term comes up to score is to represent that something takes effect). Using this as a framework we can see that an assassin that misses does not score and so therefor the critical does not happen. The champion on the other hand scores regardless of whether the attack roll indicates a hit or not and therefor the critical hit takes effect even though you should have missed.

[Arkhios]

Careful there are abilities that have critical hits that require you to hit for them to work and others where the critical hit is automatically a hit. Remember the assassin only scores a critical if he hits but the champion scores just by rolling a 19 regardless of whether that should hit or not.

That is the key. Each use of the ability tells you how and when they score the critical hit. Score is the the operative term to look for as it seems that is the designers way in the rules to tell you how each critical hit ability works. The assassin scores after a hit under special circumstances. The champion scores on a roll of 19. A score is a hit (though they never go right out and define that term if you read all the times the term comes up to score is to represent that something takes effect). Using this as a framework we can see that an assassin that misses does not score and so therefor the critical does not happen. The champion on the other hand scores regardless of whether the attack roll indicates a hit or not and therefor the critical hit takes effect even though you should have missed.

Remember, in games like D&D (throughout it's history, afaik), specific rule overrules a generic rule. Both the assassin's and the champion's equivalent rules are specific to those classes and archetypes and overrule the generic rule for when crits happen. In the case of an assassin/champion, the most favorable applies depending on situation. Note, I do not disagree with you.

[MeeposFire]

Remember, in games like D&D (throughout it's history, afaik), specific rule overrules a generic rule. Both the assassin's and the champion's equivalent rules are specific to those classes and archetypes and overrule the generic rule for when crits happen. In the case of an assassin/champion, the most favorable applies depending on situation. Note, I do not disagree with you.

Well note which general rules are being modified. Neither ability actually modifies the general rule of critical hits. The entire ability itself does not say when you get critical hits only what happens if you do (so the assassin does not modify this rule but the half orc and barbarian do as they change how critical hits work by adding in an additional dir or more to it). The Natural 20 rule is similar it says a natural 20 is a hit and then in a separate sentence says that it is also a critical hit. So that is not the general rule on critical hits or automatic hits. Notice that the general rule does not say that the auto hit is based off of having a critical hit or that the critical hit is based off of auto hitting. They are not directly related to each other they are just both properties of the general rule of the natural 20 with an attack role. You can have an auto hit ability with no crit and a crit without auto hitting.

As for a more general rule there are several conditions listed in the book that list granting criticals as a property but require you to still roll to hit to get it such as paralysis.

By my reading the general rule of critical hits only applies to what happens when you get one. The natural 20 attack roll rule tells you just one way that the general critical rules apply but it is not the general rule for crits just one of the more common times it is used. To me the general rule is "you score or get a a crit when ever an ability/rule tells you that you do" and the natural 20 rule is just one of several that you find.

[djreynolds]

My question is how a Champion who is high enough level to have the 18-20 crit feature only has a +4 to hit?

I'm AFB atm, but isn't his proficiency bonus alone higher than that at that level? Not to mention, where are his STR/DEX scores.

+4 or +5 to hit is common at level 1, but you don't throw AC 24 monsters (higher than the AC of the most Ancient of Dragons) against level 1 PCs (who also don't have the 18-20 crit range yet).

Maybe he is strength based fighter..... but is using a longbow and he has dumped dexterity. Maybe

What sucks is, a champions' increased crit range doesn't work for vorpal weapons or swords of sharpness....
sage advice says for these you still need a 20.

[Plaguescarred]

FYI Jeremy Crawford also tweet that a Improved Critical is an automatic hit http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/18/only-20-hit/

@strames Does a fighter with an increased crit range (say 19-20) always hit on a 19? Or does the fighter miss if the AC is too high?
@JeremyECrawford Only a roll of 20 is an automatic hit, unless a feature says otherwise.
@strames FYI, there is a debate going on http://tinyurl.com/llbcfgq And I fear that 'unless feature says otherwise' will fuel not settle
@JeremyECrawford I had a brain glitch and was thinking of a theoretical crit. range increase. Specifics: Improved Critical does score a hit on a 19.

[djreynolds]

FYI Jeremy Crawford also tweet that a Improved Critical is an automatic hit http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/18/only-20-hit/

@strames Does a fighter with an increased crit range (say 19-20) always hit on a 19? Or does the fighter miss if the AC is too high?
@JeremyECrawford Only a roll of 20 is an automatic hit, unless a feature says otherwise.
@strames FYI, there is a debate going on http://tinyurl.com/llbcfgq And I fear that 'unless feature says otherwise' will fuel not settle
@JeremyECrawford I had a brain glitch and was thinking of a theoretical crit. range increase. Specifics: Improved Critical does score a hit on a 19.

But still not for a vorpal sword? Which requires a roll of 20, not a critical hit... which a roll of 20 is.... now I'm cross-eyed. Its like discussing time-travel.

How would you rule the improved criticals and special magic weapons?

[Arkhios]

But still not for a vorpal sword? Which requires a roll of 20, not a critical hit... which a roll of 20 is.... now I'm cross-eyed. Its like discussing time-travel.

How would you rule the improved criticals and special magic weapons?

Vorpal Sword's effect is a very special one, and powerful at that. The effect won't activate on an 18 or 19 even if in the hands of a champion, because the effect isn't tied to a scoring a critical hit. A champion could score a critical hit with a vorpal sword with a range of 19 to 20 (or 18 to 20), but that doesn't mean that the weapon would cut off the target's head as well. Critical hit only does double damage, that's it. Vorpal Sword's effect does something entirely different, as seen below:


When you attack a creature that has at least one head with this weapon and roll a 20 on the attack roll, you cut off one of the creature's heads. The creature dies if it can't survive without the lost head. A creature is immune to this effect if it is immune to slashing damage, doesn't have or need a head, has legendary actions, or the DM decides that the creature is too big for its head to be cut off with this weapon. Such a creature instead takes an extra 6d8 slashing damage from the hit.
...as you can see, it doesn't mention a critical hit. Only a roll of 20 to have the effect activate. There's nothing odd about it.

[Joe the Rat]

...as you can see, it doesn't mention a critical hit. Only a roll of 20 to have the effect activate. There's nothing odd about it.
This also means that since it is keyed on die result and not crits...
-No automatic decapitations for assassins.
-Adamantine Armor does not prevent decapitation via Vorpal Blade.

[Gwendol]

Specific vs general... as usual.

[MeeposFire]

Which is why it is important to not get too caught up in the short hand and be clear when we are talking about auto hits, natural 20s, criticals, etc. They are often interweave with each other but they are separate rules that are often together. They are not synonymous as they are often used on these boards (intentionally and unintentionally).

[Ruslan]

PHB page 72:

Beginning when you choose this archetype at 3rd
level, your weapon attacks score a critical hit on a
roll of 19 or 20.

So, as a Champion, if you roll a 19, you score a critical hit. No buts about it. That's what the Improved Critical ability does. But what actually is a Critical Hit? Do we know what to do when we score a Critical hit? Yes, we do.

PHB page 196:

When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice
for the attack’s damage against the target. Roll all of the
attack’s damage dice twice and add them together.
So, now we know. When we score a critical hit, we roll all the attack damage dice twice and add them together.

And here is the logical chain from start to end:

Step 1: Champion rolls 19 for attack roll.
Step 2: PHB page 72 transfroms "rolls 19" into "score a critical hit"
Step 3: PHB page 192 transforms "score a critical hit" into "roll all attack damage dice twice and add them together".

That's it. Simple.

[Coffee_Dragon]

That's missing the fact that a critical hit doesn't stop being a hit just because it's "transformed" into some die rolling and adding. The stuff that's been added also gets applied.

[Ruslan]

That's missing the fact that a critical hit doesn't stop being a hit just because it's "transformed" into some die rolling and adding. The stuff that's been added also gets applied.
I'm confused, was that an answer to me? If so, which part of my post led you to believe I think a critical hit "stopped being a hit"?

[Coffee_Dragon]

I'm confused, was that an answer to me? If so, which part of my post led you to believe I think a critical hit "stopped being a hit"?

It was a response to the "that's it" summation of the chain that ends with some dice lying on the table and the DM saying, "it's nice you got to roll some dice and add some numbers at least, because 19 is a miss". I'm absolutely sure you didn't mean that, but it's precisely the case some people have actually presented in threads like this.

[Ruslan]

I see where you're coming from, but it's not just rolling of dice, it's rolling of damage dice. So, yeah, it's a hit, and I'll never claim otherwise.

[Ruslan]

My question is how a Champion who is high enough level to have the 18-20 crit feature only has a +4 to hit?

I'm AFB atm, but isn't his proficiency bonus alone higher than that at that level? Not to mention, where are his STR/DEX scores.
Maybe he's a Dex-based fighter and was disarmed, got his weapon stolen, or otherwise can't use his regular weapon, and is forced to fight with an improvised club or staff (Str-based).

Or vice versa, maybe he's Str-based, and has to make a ranged attack at a range too long for a javelin, so he uses a bow or crossbow.

[MaxWilson]

In which case, he'd do well to not take the -5 to hit in the future, right? +10 damage when you hit is not worth the ZERO damage you do when you miss. Better to hit and not get the bonus damage than to miss.

He could also be a 20th level Kobold Champion with only Str 6, using a Str-based weapon. +6 (prof) - 2 (Str) = +4. But at least he probably gets advantage from Pack Tactics!