Introducing myself and asking for advice

[ezequielandrush]

Hi all, I recently made an account in this forum in order to participate more actively in this comunity. I am a OOTS reader and I came to this page very often searching for ideas and advice.

But I have a need of guidance in some specific DM matters.
I just started a campaign as DM that is intended to last from lvl 1 to lvl 17-20, but I am afraid of higher levels because I feel the game may be unbalanced beyond lvl 12.
Casters, for example, become far too powerful.
Is there any way for keeping the fun going steady as PJ levels rise up? How do I keep them feeling in danger and insecure?

Thanks in advance and sorry if I've made any mistakes in my writing. My english is not perfect.

Cheers

Zeke

[The Insaniac]

The best thing to do is have a gentleman's agreement with your players. You don't throw Orcus against them at level 5, they don't try pun-pun (an extreme example, sure, but that's the general idea). As long as the PCs are willing to play within reason and have similar levels of system mastery, you shouldn't get too much of an issue with player power levels.

[Hiro Quester]

It helps to ask the less powerful or less optimized players what they find most fun to do, or what they eventually would like their character to be able to do.

Often it seems that it's not that the melee characters for instance are less powerful, but that they have become really good at one thing only (hitting things really hard). But if they enjoy doing that thing, then just find a way to make it extra fun, or extra useful for the group, for them to be even better at doing that thing.

It helps to know what the players aims are, and what they enjoy doing, so you can give them either a special item, or a bonus feat, etc. that I proves their character.

That way, even if they're not the most powerful in the group, they can contribute in what they take to be a fun and meaningful way.

Another way to do this is to create a NPC who takes the role of buffing the less powerful players. For example have a buffer bard with dragonfire inspiration join the party. Make it their primary task to give the melee focused characters (whose power tends to lack behind the casters) those (inspire courage) bonuses to hit, (inspire greatness) temp hit points, and (DFI) extra 8D6 damage to every attack.

Or better yet, convince one of the players to play that role.

[Auron3991]

As far as keeping it fun: the word 'yes' is possibly your best friend. It actually allows you to nick content your players provide and if your players view you as a reasonable person, they will be more likely to trust you if you need to resolve a power-scaling issues.

As far as keeping it challenging, remember that many monsters are quite smart, and even basic tactics can quickly ramp up the threat level of fight. The last session I ran had three kobalds, one of them being a reduced power arcane caster (2 lv one and 3 lv zero spells), with a silent imaged wall (which counted as one of the caster's spells) and a basic pit surrounding them that turned out to be a significant challenge for four first level adventurers (barbarian, rogue, paladin, sorcerer).

[endur]

Don't forget that as GM, you determine when players gain levels. You can have players gain a level every time you play, or you can spread it out, gaining a level after 6-8 evenings.

You could decide to have the campaign stop at level 12 if you aren't comfortable GMing above that level.

If there is a level 18 module that you want to GM, but you aren't comfortable with level 18, you could keep the story the same and lower the monsters to level 12.

[jedipotter]

Is there any way for keeping the fun going steady as PJ levels rise up? How do I keep them feeling in danger and insecure?


Yes, you need to scale up the game. D&D really does such a poor job of explaining this in the rules. There is lots of ground work, but very little else.

From Levels 1-5 D&D is a basic adventure game. A locked door is still an obstacle, a group of orc thugs can be deadly, and nothing is too easy. Levels 6-12 however make just about all mundane things utterly useless. Mundane doors, locks, chains or whatever are pointless. As are groups of thug monsters. And levels 13+ the PC's are powerful demi gods.

Most people kind of ''lock'' the game into being exactly like the ''Middle Ages'' no matter what. But after 6th level or so, all that mundane Middle Ages stuff is pointless. What needs to be done is advance the power level of the whole game. And i lot of DM's resist doing that. So the 13th level character faces....a normal mundane wooden door. Wow, takes then almost a second to get over that. But if the door was made of fantasy materials and had magic effects, it again becomes a door that will keep characters out.

It's a bit of an arms race, but it's needed to keep the game fun and interesting and scary.

[LooseCannoneer]

Yes, you need to scale up the game. D&D really does such a poor job of explaining this in the rules. There is lots of ground work, but very little else.

From Levels 1-5 D&D is a basic adventure game. A locked door is still an obstacle, a group of orc thugs can be deadly, and nothing is too easy. Levels 6-12 however make just about all mundane things utterly useless. Mundane doors, locks, chains or whatever are pointless. As are groups of thug monsters. And levels 13+ the PC's are powerful demi gods.

Most people kind of ''lock'' the game into being exactly like the ''Middle Ages'' no matter what. But after 6th level or so, all that mundane Middle Ages stuff is pointless. What needs to be done is advance the power level of the whole game. And i lot of DM's resist doing that. So the 13th level character faces....a normal mundane wooden door. Wow, takes then almost a second to get over that. But if the door was made of fantasy materials and had magic effects, it again becomes a door that will keep characters out.

It's a bit of an arms race, but it's needed to keep the game fun and interesting and scary.

I really like the door anaolgy. Let the players go through the walls if they want to. Just because you put a door for them to pick doesn't mean that they can't go through another way.

Also, while I'm talking about doors and walls: put hinges on your doors. Don't point them out, but a player using disable device on a hinge should be able to remove that hinge, then the door could either have the rest of the hinges taken off, or broken down easier. Just don't put all of the hinges on the party's side of the door.

[ezequielandrush]

Thanks to all for replies and feedback.

I think I'll have the "arms race" approach. I guess one thing I can do is to use less "high damage" spells in my NPS (as phantasmal killer with high saving throws) only for bosses and such.

Sometimes they just have plain bad luck. I killed 3 of them with such spells last year in an incredible bad luck streak (they all rolled 1&2 in their dice). There is no fun in a massacre just for bad luck.

Did any of you had such scenario before?

I am a new (and well intentioned) DM. I don't want to kill my PJ, but sometimes they don't help jejejeje....


Saludos!

Zeke

[JusticeZero]

There's also E6..

Arms race gets really stupid. "Wait, so the guards are level what? Why did they send us after goblins then, pity? And where were did all these teleportation blockers come from a week after we learned how to teleport - every other Wizard has been able to for centuries.." It turns into a process of the players earning new abilities and you retconning the universe to make them useless.

[Tragak]

The best thing to do is have a gentleman's agreement with your players. You don't throw Orcus against them at level 5, they don't try pun-pun (an extreme example, sure, but that's the general idea). As long as the PCs are willing to play within reason and have similar levels of system mastery, you shouldn't get too much of an issue with player power levels. And that's really all you need.

[Larrx]

I disagree with the arms race idea. If the players want an epic campaign then let them be epic. Doors and pits and bandits are trivial after sixth level? Ok, let them be. Let the characters experience how powerful they've gotten (think the hobbits returning to the shire at the end of LoTR, they owned every challenge, it was a joke, it was cathartic, it showed how much the characters had grown).

If the world scales up with the players, then you've put them on a treadmill. They gain levels, but doors gain levels too. Nothing changes, there's only the illusion of advancement. My settings are E6, but I allow the players to level to 20 as normal. It works fine, and the gameplay changes as the players progress. After level ~8 town guards and kings and castle walls are no longer a challenge, but the players have better things to worry about. They're the only ones who can go toe to toe with older dragons, or teleport to foreign kingdoms to stop a senseless war, or beat back a demonic invasion. There's literally no one else who can do those jobs. The game changes scope. That's what makes it epic.

[j_spencer93]

Honestly i let my characters make whatever they want and have never had a single case of someone trying to play an OP build, because they like fluff over crunch. interesting enough, i have never had to change an encounter to allow them to win either. it all works out fine, sometimes to many people forget the RP mechanic and stick to numbers. they also seem to think everything hits and does mad damage which isn't the case.
Ask your players what they are playing, what their builds are "themed", and just make a campaign you want to them to play. IF they are to strong, just change it up a little by changing the boss or something.

[ezequielandrush]

I´ll have a talk with my players then.
In the end, they deserve to choose what kind of game they play.

Thanks for the feedbak

[Crake]

Having recently run into this in my current game, it's the first time me or any of my players have played in a high level game, and it's starting to fall apart. One of the players just really doesn't like the things that happen in high level gameplay, where killing BBEGs becomes a game of chess, where things aren't limited in scope to a single combat, and where things like disjunction can ruin your day in an instant. He basically wants mid level play with bigger numbers. There's a good reason why most games end around 12, and it's because high level play is hard, for players and DMs alike, and it seems that many people either don't like it, or don't have the time to put into the planning that would be necessary at those levels.

People have suggested e6, but if you want to go for more of a mid level feel, you can instead run e8, 10 or 12, capping the game at those levels to preserve that feeling.

[hifidelity2]

Having recently run into this in my current game, it's the first time me or any of my players have played in a high level game, and it's starting to fall apart. One of the players just really doesn't like the things that happen in high level gameplay, where killing BBEGs becomes a game of chess, where things aren't limited in scope to a single combat, and where things like disjunction can ruin your day in an instant. He basically wants mid level play with bigger numbers. There's a good reason why most games end around 12, and it's because high level play is hard, for players and DMs alike, and it seems that many people either don't like it, or don't have the time to put into the planning that would be necessary at those levels.

People have suggested e6, but if you want to go for more of a mid level feel, you can instead run e8, 10 or 12, capping the game at those levels to preserve that feeling.

As stated above the nature of the games changes as the players need to understand that

So
at low level 1-4 ist then it’s a “cautious” dungeon bash
at Mid level 5 – 12 its bigger enemies but nothing to OTT and in many peoples eye this is when D&D is at its best
At high level 13+ it needs to become a lot more political with the odd skirmish

I played in a long term campaign and we were all around the level 20 mark (I had a 19th /17th level Illusionist / Thief) – other party members were (21st MU, 17 Cleric, 18th Paladin, 18th fighter) so we only got our hands dirty either in major battles or when called upon to fight major NPCs’. We could spend weeks of play and never cast a spell, draw a sword etc.

Another good way is to have a good number of level drain creatures – nothing frightens party members than knowing that if Creature X hits they lose 1 level esp if its PERMANANT

[Arbane]

Another good way is to have a good number of level drain creatures – nothing frightens party members than knowing that if Creature X hits they lose 1 level esp if its PERMANANT

Two reactions:

1: UGH NO. Those things are terrible. They make you need to rewrite your character sheet.
2: No, it's not permanent, thanks to the Restoration spell.

[Crake]

Two reactions:

1: UGH NO. Those things are terrible. They make you need to rewrite your character sheet.
2: No, it's not permanent, thanks to the Restoration spell.

From the sounds of it he was referring to a previous edition, where that stuff was instant and permanent

[atemu1234]

From the sounds of it he was referring to a previous edition, where that stuff was instant and permanent

And no fun at all. For a non-DM, at any rate.

[Trasilor]

First, on your road to become good DM you are taking the right step: asking questions. This, and other forums, are a great resource when you hit that block (and you will - we all do).

Now, some things to keep in mind as your characters gain levels:

Economy of action. You one BBEG has one action per turn while the PCs have 4 (or more). PCs will take lots of measure to increase this (casting all day buffs for example). As such, understand that a group of baddies is more difficult than just one big bad (even at the same CR).

Add more non-combat. D&D is a roleplaying game (not a battle simulation game) and it is important to remember that. Higher level PCs may no longer fear death themselves, but perhaps for the lives of the people in their nation. As PCs gain higher levels, the challenges should evolve into more than just hitting the thing harder.

Finally, and most important, talk to the players. Ask them what they expect to get out of the game. While you may find it difficult to challenge the players at higher levels, they may find it boring because nothing is a challenge anymore.

Best of luck, and happy gaming :smallbiggrin:

[Crake]

Add more non-combat. D&D is a roleplaying game (not a battle simulation game) and it is important to remember that. Higher level PCs may no longer fear death themselves, but perhaps for the lives of the people in their nation. As PCs gain higher levels, the challenges should evolve into more than just hitting the thing harder.

They likely fear ostracization as well. Having the big bad guy play the world against the players can be intimidating, when everyone knows your face and thinks of you as "the bad guy". Sure, there's illusion magic for that, but, depending on the game, major cities will have checkpoints with means of true seeing that could impact them.

Nobody likes having a ruined reputation, especially one that you've spent the whole game gaining, so protecting it from slander is a good roleplay encounter. For example, have them charged with warcrimes that were performed by people disguised as them. Just a basic example, but could lead to some fun roleplay.

[ezequielandrush]

They likely fear ostracization as well. Having the big bad guy play the world against the players can be intimidating, when everyone knows your face and thinks of you as "the bad guy". Sure, there's illusion magic for that, but, depending on the game, major cities will have checkpoints with means of true seeing that could impact them.

Nobody likes having a ruined reputation, especially one that you've spent the whole game gaining, so protecting it from slander is a good roleplay encounter. For example, have them charged with warcrimes that were performed by people disguised as them. Just a basic example, but could lead to some fun roleplay.




Economy of action. You one BBEG has one action per turn while the PCs have 4 (or more). PCs will take lots of measure to increase this (casting all day buffs for example). As such, understand that a group of baddies is more difficult than just one big bad (even at the same CR).

Add more non-combat. D&D is a roleplaying game (not a battle simulation game) and it is important to remember that. Higher level PCs may no longer fear death themselves, but perhaps for the lives of the people in their nation. As PCs gain higher levels, the challenges should evolve into more than just hitting the thing harder.



You two gave me so much ideas!

Trasilor: I agree with you in the economy of actions, but I trend to put one BBEG instead of several evil minions because I am still learning and don't want to slow the game with my play. Besides it is difficult to manage initiative points for each evil NPC, but I guess it's matter of time for me to get used to play several characters at the same time.
I have another problem too. I hate to give the impression to my players that the evildoers hace some "hive mind", but sometimes I just make someone act as if he/she/it knows something that is known by other NPC in the board. this is one of my biggest mistakes at DM'ing,

Thanks

Zeke

Again: Forgive my english :P

[Larrx]

You two gave me so much ideas!

Trasilor: I agree with you in the economy of actions, but I trend to put one BBEG instead of several evil minions because I am still learning and don't want to slow the game with my play. Besides it is difficult to manage initiative points for each evil NPC, but I guess it's matter of time for me to get used to play several characters at the same time.
I have another problem too. I hate to give the impression to my players that the evildoers hace some "hive mind", but sometimes I just make someone act as if he/she/it knows something that is known by other NPC in the board. this is one of my biggest mistakes at DM'ing,

Thanks

Zeke

Again: Forgive my english :P

Often when I see people suggest increasing the number of foes to make a BBEG meaningful, they are primarily advocating the addition of mooks. This is solid advice. The action economy disadvantage makes facing a single BBEG dull no matter how tough you make the foe. There simply isn't enough going on. There are too few meaningful choices for the players to make. Adding mooks solves these problems, and there are no real meta game concerns. The mooks goals and desires are assumed to be completely subsumed by the BBEG's intentions. This is fine, and it works, and it's far better than a single villain.

But you can do better. Don't make the ancillary characters mooks. Make them fully realized people who have allied with the big bad, but may at times find themselves at cross purposes. This deepens and enriches your setting and gives the players even more avenues to victory than a straight up brawl. It takes more work, but it yields rewards.