rolling for untrained skills

[LucianoAr]

i started my first DM campaign this weekend, and i noticed rolling for certain untrained skills seems like dice swinging and nonsense.

do you allow players who have an untrained skill to use that given skill?

for example characters with the perception skill were losing outright to characters with no sleight of hand training trying to rob them, just because of dice (and tbh, anyone not a rogue or a bard all the way down to lvl 20 are still only a +6 away from any skill, you can easily outperform a lvl20 specialist with a lvl 1 character with no skills whatsoever)

how do you address this?

[JFahy]

i started my first DM campaign this weekend, and i noticed rolling for certain untrained skills seems like dice swinging and nonsense.

do you allow players who have an untrained skill to use that given skill?

for example characters with the perception skill were losing outright to characters with no sleight of hand training trying to rob them, just because of dice (and tbh, anyone not a rogue or a bard all the way down to lvl 20 are still only a +6 away from any skill, you can easily outperform a lvl20 specialist with a lvl 1 character with no skills whatsoever)

how do you address this?

You don't want to get too harsh on the untrained characters - people routinely
have to jump, perceive, stay on startled horses and swim without being skilled
at those things and you don't want to beat them into the ground for it. The system
intends for characters to have holes in their skill set.

Recalibrate your expectations for DCs. Pathfinder DCs start in the 15-20 range
and get up into the thirties as characters level up; in D&D5 there's a lot to be
said for using modest DCs. A DC of 7 is pretty much a slam dunk for a 1st level
specialist*, but is threatening for someone untrained and lacking in the
relevant stat.

* I'm using 'specialist' here in a nonconventional sense, to mean a character
who is proficient in a skill and has one of their best stats aligned with the skill.

[heavyfuel]

Passive checks.

Everyone uses their passive checks, and you then apply (Dis)Advantage to give them +/- 5.

My players almost never roll the d20 for skill.

[Xetheral]

Recalibrate your expectations for DCs. Pathfinder DCs start in the 15-20 range
and get up into the thirties as characters level up; in D&D5 there's a lot to be
said for using modest DCs. A DC of 7 is pretty much a slam dunk for a 1st level
trained character, but is threatening for someone untrained and lacking in the
relevant stat.

That advice doesn't apply to the question of contested rolls that don't have a DC at all.

[JFahy]

That advice doesn't apply to the question of contested rolls that don't have a DC at all.

For those, if you wanted less variance, I'd try to find an excuse for multiple rolls.
You might beat the skill god once, but he's very likely to win a best-of-three.

[Knaight]

i started my first DM campaign this weekend, and i noticed rolling for certain untrained skills seems like dice swinging and nonsense.

do you allow players who have an untrained skill to use that given skill?

Yes. The last thing I want to do is completely restrict PCs from even trying things unless they have the skill. With that said, a nice doubling of proficiency for skill checks solves this problem nicely, though some DC re calibration is necessary as well.

[Slipperychicken]

for example characters with the perception skill were losing outright to characters with no sleight of hand training trying to rob them, just because of dice (and tbh, anyone not a rogue or a bard all the way down to lvl 20 are still only a +6 away from any skill, you can easily outperform a lvl20 specialist with a lvl 1 character with no skills whatsoever)

how do you address this?

Use passive perception versus sleight of hand. This is elaborated somewhat in PHB 177, and also somewhere in the DMG.

Level 1 no-skill Sleight of Hand guy is rolling +0 to +3 against the perception master's DC 18-21* or so. That gives the sleight of hand guy some pretty grim odds.


*The DC can theoretically go as high as 37, for a level 20 character with expertise, 20 wisdom, the observant feat, and advantage on the roll. This is highly unlikely however, and setting such a ludicrous DC in an actual game (for any creature less than a god) would make me call shenanigans, so I set 18-21 as a more believable range. Remember that DC 30 is "almost impossible".

[Mandragola]

From your description it actually sounds like maybe your players are messing about, pickpocketing passers by or each other. If that's the case and you want to deter it, give everyone a roll to see if they spot the thief. So maybe player A may not notice that player B robbed him, but players C and D spot the act. Fun stuff should follow. Or maybe they rob a passer by but a policeman sees them. Stuff like that.

You could also give one side of a contested roll a bonus. If I tried to steal someone's wallet then, given that I wouldn't know what I was doing, they'd probably catch me. Not every contested situation is a 50/50.

[hawklost]

Specifically related to Perception, most of the games I play in use the following HouseRule

When doing opposed checks related to Perception, the lowest the perciever can get is their Passive.

so Passive of 14 means even if in the opposed check the perciever gets a 1, they get 14.

[Basch]

In our group I usually set separate DCs for each PC based on their back story and proficiencies. For instance, if one of my players was playing a fighter with the soldier background I might set a jump DC at 10 for him, but the scholarly diviner might have to beat a 15. I don't always do this, but when a PC would have a notable amount of experience or training in something, I feel it makes sense.

[MadGrady]

I think it should also be noted that "Trained" and "Untrained" skills no longer exist, as skill ranks no longer exist. Everyone can attempt to do anything - those with training are more proficient at it and can add their proficiency bonus. I agree with the others that your DCs should be used to find the balance between those with Prof and those without.

[Xetheral]

In our group I usually set separate DCs for each PC based on their back story and proficiencies. For instance, if one of my players was playing a fighter with the soldier background I might set a jump DC at 10 for him, but the scholarly diviner might have to beat a 15. I don't always do this, but when a PC would have a notable amount of experience or training in something, I feel it makes sense.

That's identical to using fixed DC's and handing out situational bonuses.