is Crystal in the afterlife?

[Zmeoaice]

Title is self-explanatory. Crystal Golem has her "conscious" but that could just mean it was replicated instead of having her soul back in the body.

[Keltest]

Good question. Im going to take a shot in the dark and say no, this is Crystal's soul guiding the Golem.

[Ridin'TheCrash]

So the real question here is, are your soul and your consciousness the same thing? This is particularly interesting given the presence of DUrkula. I would personally imagine Crystals state as more of having her soul bound to an inanimate object than being a separate, almost clone-soul inhabiting her, as is the case with Durkula. I'm more inclined to this due to her rage over Haley murdering her as oppose to the attitude Durkula would have, being that Durkula would care little to avenge Durkons Death

[Roland Itiative]

I would assume that she's either in the afterlife, like Roy was when his body was turned into a golem, or in a situation similar to Durkon's, where her soul is "trapped" and an elemental has access to her memories through it.

[hamishspence]

The whole "remembering Haley killing her makes her stronger with rage" thing does seem like an implication that an ordinary flesh golem was granted self-awareness and skills, through the reinstallation of the soul within the body.

[dps]

The whole "remembering Haley killing her makes her stronger with rage" thing does seem like an implication that an ordinary flesh golem was granted self-awareness and skills, through the reinstallation of the soul within the body.

Seems like the theory that best fits the facts we have to me.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I think Crystal's memories, at the very least, are implanted in the golem, if not her soul. I doubt that this is a vampire-like situation.

[Gift Jeraff]

Maybe Crystal's brain is intact and thus the bound elemental (if there is one) is drawing memories from it, but her actual soul is in Tarterus or whatever.

[hamishspence]

Maybe Crystal's brain is intact and thus the bound elemental (if there is one) is drawing memories from it, but her actual soul is in Tarterus or whatever.

Generally, undead that do this, don't retain the character's skills. Vampires, which have the same skills they did in life, also have "trapped souls" in the OOTS-verse (and in Complete Divine).

Makes sense that similar principles would apply to constructs. That is, to have the character's full "living skillset" requires the soul.

[factotum]

Yeah, I think that the simplest explanation is that Crystal's soul is resident in that flesh golem--there are already other undead who retain their soul in-comic (as far as we're aware Xykon is the same being he was while a living human), and it would explain why this golem is special and cost so much to create.

[Bulldog Psion]

Trying to make sense of this stuff makes my head hurt, even in terms of a fantasy world. :smallbiggrin:

Honestly, I have less trouble suspending disbelief over the hurling of a lightning bolt than trying to wrap my head around this undead/construct stuff.

Their soul is in their body, and it's apparently functional, but they're not actually alive ... does not compute at all. :smallannoyed:

[littlebum2002]

The whole "remembering Haley killing her makes her stronger with rage" thing does seem like an implication that an ordinary flesh golem was granted self-awareness and skills, through the reinstallation of the soul within the body.

A dead, soulless body also remembers who killed it, which we know from the spell Speak With Dead.

[Keltest]

A dead, soulless body also remembers who killed it, which we know from the spell Speak With Dead.

It is unlikely, however, that an earth elemental with such memories would care all that much, and it has no reason to convince its makers it is anything other than a golem.

[Roland Itiative]

It is unlikely, however, that an earth elemental with such memories would care all that much, and it has no reason to convince its makers it is anything other than a golem.
But the elemental spirit inside a golem doesn't really act of its own accord, it does what it's "programmed" to do. If the golem was programmed to act like Crystal, then it will act like Crystal.

[Keltest]

But the elemental spirit inside a golem doesn't really act of its own accord, it does what it's "programmed" to do. If the golem was programmed to act like Crystal, then it will act like Crystal.

Yeah, but Bozzok didn't ask Grubwiggler to make it act like Crystal, he asked to have her retain her self awareness.

[cheesecake]

much like when drizzt's father was brought back. He was still in the body, but using his skills to track down drizzt.

[Roland Itiative]

Yeah, but Bozzok didn't ask Grubwiggler to make it act like Crystal, he asked to have her retain her self awareness.

Because he wanted her to be able to still use her assassin knowledge. I don't think Bozzok cares about whether it's actually her soul in there, or an elemental acting like her and with access to her skills and memories, to him it's all the same: a golem with assassin skills.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Intelligent undead retain their souls. I see no reason why this would be different for a golem.

[Keltest]

Because he wanted her to be able to still use her assassin knowledge. I don't think Bozzok cares about whether it's actually her soul in there, or an elemental acting like her and with access to her skills and memories, to him it's all the same: a golem with assassin skills.

Ok, but then why would it be angry at Haley? If he just wants the assassin skills, theres no reason for it to pretend to be Crystal.

[Ornithologist]

Pardon my lack of DND specifics. What normally controls a golem?

[Keltest]

Pardon my lack of DND specifics. What normally controls a golem?

An earth elemental spirit bound to... well, it varies, but generally some sort of wand or command device.

[multilis]

Intelligent undead retain their souls. I see no reason why this would be different for a golem.
But Crystal is not intelligent. So in order to be "intelligent golem" this clearly must be a different "soul", that is only pretending to be Crystal, just as Tarquin was pretending to be Thog. Therefore it is likely that Crystal is in the afterlife and this is really Miko... what better way to also get revenge on a thieves guild.

[Reathin]

My money's on it's her soul guiding it, albeit restrained to follow orders as a golem normally is. Crystal's self awareness is soul-based, and Boz deliberately kept it. While it COULD be a situation similar to vampirism, I somehow doubt it. Mostly because it reduces the "specialness" of the curse by making it something a normal mortal could create. Vampires need special spirits apparently made to order by the gods of undeath themselves in order to properly absorb and use the memories of the soul, not run of the mill elementals (which, I suspect, would be a hell of a lot easier to acquire then to make). My logic's not foolproof here, but I suspect if a regular elemental was enough, the gods wouldn't bother with the current mechanism we've seen.

Plus, it rakes up the tension if it's actually Crystal in there. This way, it's personal, not tragic. OOTS vampirism isn't something I'd wish on even someone as awful as Crystal.

[ti'esar]

I don't know what's with all the debate about this one, honestly. I thought it seemed like a pretty obvious inference that Crystal's soul is what's running the golem.

[Corsair]

Yes, she is. It is not a subjective judgment about whether she is smart, it is a matter of the D&D definition.

Reasonably certain he was making a joke.

[CletusMusashi]

She wasn't destined for a great time in the evil afterlife anyway. Not exactly IFCC material, you know?
So as long as she's a golem, she's holding it off for a while more. Xykon would approve, slightly.

[littlebum2002]

We know a vampire traps the soul in the body, but there's a difference: the instant a body dies, it's already known if it will become a vampire or not. So if a vampire drains a person completely, then the soul never leaves the body, just immediately becomes trapped, waiting the 3 days (or less) needed for the new creature to inhabit the body.

However, Crystal died, and her soul went immediately to the afterlife. Later, her body was turned into a golem. I don't think her soul was wrenched from the afterlife to make the golem, so I think it's just her body which remembers her language and skills from her life (like with Speak With Dead)

[Keltest]

We know a vampire traps the soul in the body, but there's a difference: the instant a body dies, it's already known if it will become a vampire or not. So if a vampire drains a person completely, then the soul never leaves the body, just immediately becomes trapped, waiting the 3 days (or less) needed for the new creature to inhabit the body.

However, Crystal died, and her soul went immediately to the afterlife. Later, her body was turned into a golem. I don't think her soul was wrenched from the afterlife to make the golem, so I think it's just her body which remembers her language and skills from her life (like with Speak With Dead)

Its not like there aren't other magical effects that can summon or otherwise manipulate the soul post-death.

[Psyren]

However, Crystal died, and her soul went immediately to the afterlife.

This is neither true in D&D nor in OotS. The soul hangs out by the body for a little while before passing on; this is why spells like Soul Bind work, and we specifically saw this phenomenon in SoD when Xykon trapped Lirian's soul moments after snapping her neck.

So we can't prove that Crystal ever went to the afterlife (however briefly) unless the Giant says otherwise, and therefore we can't use that phenomenon to disprove the possibility of her soul being inside the golem instead of, say, Hades.

[littlebum2002]

The difference is, that was MOMENTS after. Perhaps the soul takes a round or two to go to the afterlife. (Which probably explains that Cleric spell whose name eludes me that instantly raises anyone if cast within a round of their death). But considering that her soul does not need to be in her body to remember who killed her, or presumably to remember the skills she had) I don't see why it's necessary.

Especially considering Grubby probably isn't powerful enough to cast a spell of a high enough level to wrench a soul from the afterlife.

EDIT: Soul Bind is a 9th level spell, and it can only trap a soul a few rounds after death (one per caster level, to be exact). So to be able to get a soul after that time has passed would presumably be Epic.

[Keltest]

The difference is, that was MOMENTS after. Perhaps the soul takes a round or two to go to the afterlife. (Which probably explains that Cleric spell whose name eludes me that instantly raises anyone if cast within a round of their death). But considering that her soul does not need to be in her body to remember who killed her, or presumably to remember the skills she had) I don't see why it's necessary.

Especially considering Grubby probably isn't powerful enough to cast a spell of a high enough level to wrench a soul from the afterlife.

The body may remember its death, but a creature animated into it is unlikely to care about it's memories, assuming it can even access them, outside of what it can do with the skills.

[littlebum2002]

The body may remember its death, but a creature animated into it is unlikely to care about it's memories, assuming it can even access them, outside of what it can do with the skills.

It can if you order it to.

"Find and destroy the person who killed you"

[Keltest]

It can if you order it to.

"Find and destroy the person who killed you"

Ok. For starters, Golems are normally animated by an earth elemental spirit. Assuming they even recognize Crystal's body as being "you", it CERTAINLY isn't going to be angry about being killed.

[Reddish Mage]

Especially considering Grubby probably isn't powerful enough to cast a spell of a high enough level to wrench a soul from the afterlife.

EDIT: Soul Bind is a 9th level spell, and it can only trap a soul a few rounds after death (one per caster level, to be exact). So to be able to get a soul after that time has passed would presumably be Epic.

That's assuming Crystal refuses to return. Crystal has plenty of reason to return, having said she was planning to come back and kill Haley prior to dying. Raise Dead is merely a 5th level spell. Grubby can easily be a mid-level some-wierd-prestige or npc-class.

Also, evidence is that the soul doesn't merely stick around a few rounds and passes on but slowly loses its connection to its body and the Material Plane over time. This would explain why raise spells progressively require higher level spellcasters for longer time periods.

[rodneyAnonymous]

I don't think her soul was wrenched from the afterlife to make the golem...

Why not? The ABD's was. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

[littlebum2002]

Ok. For starters, Golems are normally animated by an earth elemental spirit. Assuming they even recognize Crystal's body as being "you", it CERTAINLY isn't going to be angry about being killed.

I'm totally picking nits here, and I'm not sure why because I don't know if I even agree with this theory, but what I was trying to say was Buzzock could easily instruct the Golem to "attack the one who killed you with anger", but
1) why would he do that? Psychological reasons maybe?
2) why would he say the rage makes her stronger?


That's assuming Crystal refuses to return. Crystal has plenty of reason to return, having said she was planning to come back and kill Haley prior to dying. Raise Dead is merely a 5th level spell. Grubby can easily be a mid-level some-wierd-prestige or npc-class.

Good point. Crystal certainly would come back to kill Haley, but why come back willingly as a mindless golem? She's probably not intelligent enough to know that she's stronger in this form, but maybe she is.


Why not? The ABD's was. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

Darn, I was hoping no one would point this out. :smallyuk:

However, it does give credence to the theory that you go to the afterlife pretty quickly. (She was reunited with her family moments after death, which took Roy days)

[RighteousWarior]

Well...that's like zombies. They're big, dumb critters that try to eat your brain. Doesn't mean the soul goes back in them. No. Durkula is a special case. Crystal is in the afterlife like Roy was when Grubwiggler re-animated HIS body.(Remember that?)

Case closed! :smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

EDIT: Soul Bind is a 9th level spell, and it can only trap a soul a few rounds after death (one per caster level, to be exact). So to be able to get a soul after that time has passed would presumably be Epic.

Haley teleported out shortly after killing Crystal, so we don't know how long it took Bozzok to find Crystal's corpse, or how much time Grubby's intelligent-golem-making-device needs in order to attach a residual soul. There's just too many unknowns here to definitively say "that's not Crystal's soul in there."


Well...that's like zombies. They're big, dumb critters that try to eat your brain. Doesn't mean the soul goes back in them. No. Durkula is a special case. Crystal is in the afterlife like Roy was when Grubwiggler re-animated HIS body.(Remember that?)

Case closed! :smallbiggrin:

Roy's golem was mindless and had no memories of his friends. This one clearly is neither of those things. Case still open.

[littlebum2002]

Haley teleported out shortly after killing Crystal, so we don't know how long it took Bozzok to find Crystal's corpse, or how much time Grubby's intelligent-golem-making-device needs in order to attach a residual soul. There's just too many unknowns here to definitively say "that's not Crystal's soul in there."


We know it was at least as much time as it takes to go to the Temple of Loki, get a cleric, go to Grubby's, raise him (1 minute) then get him to make a golem.
(Creating this golem, according to the RAW, should take weeks, but we don't know exactly how fast Grubby's machine is, so it might just take a round)

Which, I can almost certainly say, is enough time that even a level 19 Cleric wouldn't be able to Soul Bind (which would be only 19 rounds, or a little under 2 minutes) , so my personal opinion is that "taking her soul forcefully" would have a similar restriction and therefore is off the table.

[Psyren]

We know it was at least as much time as it takes to go to the Temple of Loki, get a cleric, go to Grubby's, raise him (1 minute) then get him to make a golem.

You're assuming Bozz didn't consider raising Grub until after he found Crystal - considering that her killing him was not part of the plan, he may have already set that in motion. So we still don't know for sure.

In addition, "rounds/level to grab the soul" is only a Soul Bind requirement. We don't know the time frame needed for Grub's machine to do the same thing.

So as I said, there are too many variables here to be sure.


(Creating this golem, according to the RAW, should take weeks, but we don't know exactly how fast Grubby's machine is, so it might just take a round)

It was pretty fast at animating Roy (Celia's lightning boost notwithstanding) and I doubt Flesh Golems take considerably more time than Bone Golems to make, though I don't have the construction stats for the latter.

[Zmeoaice]

So what other ways besides Ressurection can one get a soul to come back from the afterlife? Also, how long can one wait before casting Soul Bind on a corpse doesn't work?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

So what other ways besides Ressurection can one get a soul to come back from the afterlife? Also, how long can one wait before casting Soul Bind on a corpse doesn't work?
Other similar spells such as True Resurrection, Reincarnation, and Raise Dead also bring back souls from the after life, with various penalties and for various costs. Soul Bind must be used before 1 round/CL has passed since the subject died.

[Fish]

I don't have an answer to the OP. I will say that I strongly suspect that whatever the Order comes up with for an answer regarding Crystal will strongly inform their philosophy on how to feel about Durkon/Durkula's loyalty. I could see arguments going either way.

If the Order realizes that Crystal's soul is departed and something else has taken up residence in Crystal's body and is animating her, using her memories, the Order could say, "Huh. Sounds like bad news for Durkon." On the other hand, if the Order notices that Crystal is somehow the polar opposite: Crystal's anima is powering the golem, operating its crude controls, and her personality is filtered through the golem's low intelligence, they could realize this is the opposite of the behavior seen with Durkon... somehow.

That there happen to be two re-animated characters cannot be a coincidence, I feel. But I've been wrong before.

[Snails]

We know a vampire traps the soul in the body, but there's a difference: the instant a body dies, it's already known if it will become a vampire or not. So if a vampire drains a person completely, then the soul never leaves the body, just immediately becomes trapped, waiting the 3 days (or less) needed for the new creature to inhabit the body.

However, Crystal died, and her soul went immediately to the afterlife. Later, her body was turned into a golem. I don't think her soul was wrenched from the afterlife to make the golem, so I think it's just her body which remembers her language and skills from her life (like with Speak With Dead)

It is a nearly ubiquitous human tradition to treat the dead corpse respectfully in order to help the soul to its destiny. Or desecrate the corpse to interfere with this process. There is no common human Real Life rule that says desecrating a body after N days is okay. The soul has its own time frame which does not necessarily make any sense to us living humans.

So when you are trying to concoct your tome of "Physical Laws of Undeath" appropriate for a particular fantasy world, I believe one must kept the above in mind.

tl;dr -- I am not sure what "immediately" means. Do souls traveling to eternity adhere to your personal calendar?

[Doug Lampert]

Intelligent undead retain their souls. I see no reason why this would be different for a golem.

Because Golems normally don't involve the soul at all in D&D. Most are made from soulless inanimate objects in the first place and a person made into a golem can still be resurrected, cut off a small piece and you're good to go.

If Crystal can be resurrected, as is NORMAL for flesh golems, then her soul can't be in the golem.

If Crystal can't be resurrected, then that was an added and unusual thing for golem creation which usually only happens with undead creation.


Why not? The ABD's was. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

And the ABD was made into an undead, funny that, we KNOW she couldn't be raised or resurrected while undead, and true resurrect doesn't involve the body at all so it follows that all forms of undead do in some way involve the soul.

It's in the rules for coming back from the dead that you can't do so while undead. UNLIKE, say, golems, which don't use those rules and where we KNOW in comic that being made into a flesh golem has no effect on the soul.

Now, Grubwieller's mysterious extra special secret sauce intelligent flesh golem may use the undead rules, or it may just have a clause that it returns the soul to the body. If this were my campaign and I were writing the rules I would in fact rule that the soul is in the golem.

But we don't know. We do know that even WITHOUT the soul returning the body retains access to the knowledge it had in life and we do know that being made into a construct usually doesn't prevent the soul doing other things. There's no requirement that the soul be there in what we've seen.

[veti]

Why not? The ABD's was. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0639.html)

That was undead. Totally different thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0575.html).

[VanaGalen]

I think Crystal-golem is way too much like her usual, alive self for a mindless golem, so her soul is definitely on board. It can't be compared to Durkon's case, as whatever animates Crystal's body has no reason to pretend to be real Crystal.
I don't see how it could interfere with her hypothetical resurrection, one way or the other golem would have to be killed before bringing her back to life.
As for the need of her soul's consent to being her back as golem, I think "hey, you can have another go at killing Starshine" would be more than enough to get it.

So no, I don't think she's in the afterlife. She looks like she is well, maybe not exactly alive, but definitely kicking in her own body.

[rodneyAnonymous]

My reply was about a soul being pulled out of the afterlife.

[Zmeoaice]

Now that we know Crystal Golem is in constant pain, does anyone think that means she's still in there?

[veti]

Now that we know Crystal Golem is in constant pain, does anyone think that means she's still in there?

Possibilities:

Crystal's soul, instead of the usual "earth elemental", is directly controlling her golem body. This is excruciatingly painful because the body itself hasn't been repaired, the condition it's in it should be dead, but the soul and body are being tied together by some of the most evil magic we've ever seen, and can't separate. (Incidentally, if there was any debate about Grubwiggler's alignment, this should pretty much peg it.)
Crystal's soul is currently in Tartarus (or wherever) being tormented, and merely channeling its rage and expressions through the golem. Then the "pain" is just what Crystal would be experiencing if she were just-plain-dead. But unlike most people there, she can tell us about it.
Crystal's soul is bound inside the body, used by the animating spirit in the same way as Durkon's. In that case, the "pain" it feels is presumably inflicted by the other spirit, or the magic that holds it. I don't buy this myself - why would the animating spirit be mad at Haley?
She's lying. The whole "NOTHING BUT PAIN" line is just a tactical ploy to distract and demoralise Haley.

[ti'esar]

I'd be really surprised if it's any of those besides 1, honestly.

(Also, yeah, you make a good point about what that says about Grubwiggler. I'd mostly just focused on Bozzok's role myself, but they both come out of this looking seriously evil).

[Zyzzyva]

I'd be really surprised if it's any of those besides 1, honestly.

(Also, yeah, you make a good point about what that says about Grubwiggler. I'd mostly just focused on Bozzok's role myself, but they both come out of this looking seriously evil).

Without suggesting anything about Grubby - because I will preemptively concede he's totally evil - do you think he knew what would happen?

[veti]

Without suggesting anything about Grubby - because I will preemptively concede he's totally evil - do you think he knew what would happen?

"Knew" - maybe not, I guess it depends whether anyone has ever done this before (and written down what followed).

I'd guess he thought "Hey, that's a cool idea. I wonder what'll happen?" He probably did it For Science. In which case, I'll grant him +5 points towards Lawful, but not Good, if he actually bothered to take detailed notes of what happened.

[Roland Itiative]

Unless he knows for a fact that the golem does not have Crystal's soul in any way there, I'd peg the creation of the thing to be close enough to undeath to count as an evil act. He'd be pulling her soul from the afterlife, against her will, and putting it in a mockery of life.