VoP Paladin//Monk that's actually good?

[Mr.Kraken]

So, I'm playing with this Vow of Poverty Paladin//Monk gestalt. (preparing to be stoned to death)

Yeah, wait a minute. I think I managed to make it work, and I'm really liking the build, so what do y'all think?

Name: Lucius Khadmiel
Race: Human
Alignment: Neutral Good
Deity: Phieran

Lucius is a Fist of Phieran, an ascetic warrior who has trained to be a representative of Phieran, the patron of the tortured. He is considered Phieran's hand, a position that has two different aspects. As the aspect of the open hand, he is the one who looks for the destitute, the poor, the needy and the oppressed, and offers help in any way he can. As the aspect of the closed fist, he is Phieran's warrior, fighting for the cause of good, to bring down tyranny and evil.

The DM gave me a free pass to change some things. I've changed Phieran's alignment to NG, as I believe suits his teachings better. This also gave me the pass to lift the monk's alignment-based restrictions.

So, here's the build:

Paladin (Sentinel) 8/Human Paragon 1/Fist of Phieran (Fist of the Forest) 2/Mystic Wanderer 1/Pious Templar 1/Swordsage 7 // Monk 20

*The Sentinel is depicted on Dragon #310 as a NG variant of the paladin. I've refluffed the Fist of the Forest to suit the character, but changed nothing mechanically. And yes, 20 levels of Monk. Don't kill me. :smallsmile:

Ability Scores:
Str 16, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 19

Level 1 (Paladin/Monk)
d10
BAB+1, Fort+2, Ref+2, Will+2
Aura of Good (Ext)
Detect Evil (Sp)
Smite Evil (Su) - 1/day
AC Bonus (Ext) - Wisdom modifier
Flurry of Blows (Ext) - -1/-1
Unarmed strike - 1d6
AC Bonus (Su) - +4 exalted bonus to AC.
Feat - 1: Sacred Vow (+2 perfection bonus on Diplomacy)
Feat - Human: Vow of Poverty (Several bonuses in exchange for becoming an ascetic)
Feat - Exaltad: Vow of Chastity (+4 perfection bonus on saves againsts charms and phantasms.)
Feat - Monk: Power Attack (Gained from Overwhelming Attack alternative fighting style from Unearthed Arcana)
Feat - Flaw: Vow of Abstinence (+4 perfection bonuses on Fort saves against poisons and forcibly administered drugs.)
Flaw: Shaky (-2 on ranged attacks)
Level 2 (Paladin/Monk)
d10
BAB+2, Fort+3, Ref+3, Will+3
Divine Grace (Su) - add Cha to saves.
Resist Fiendish Lure (Su) - +4 sacred bonus against evil outsiders' mind-affecting attacks.
Flurry of Blows (Ext) - 0/0
Evasion (Ext)
Feat - Monk: Greater Fortitude (Switched from Improved Bull Rush. Lost fighting style benefits.)
Feat - Exalted: Touch of Golden Ice (Use Golden Ice as a supernatural ability)
Golden Ice - DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha modifier, initial damage: 1d6+Cha. mod. of target creature Dex damage. Secondary damage: 2d6+Cha. mod. of target creature Dex damage. Evil undead or evil elementals receive 1 extra Dex damage, and evil outsiders or evil clerics receive 2 extra Dex damage.
Level 3 (Paladin/Monk)
d10
BAB+3, Fort+3, Ref+3, Will+3
Aura of Courage (Su) - Immunity to fear. Allies in 10ft get +4 morale bonus against fear.
Celestial Fortitude (Su) - +2 sacred bonus on Fortitude saves against attacks from evil outsiders and spells with the "Evil" descriptor. Besides, if any of these effects would normally cause half damage or partial effects in a successful save, they cause no effect or damage.
Flurry of Blows - +1/+1
Fast Movement (Ext) - +10ft.
Still Mind (Ext) - +2 on saves against enchantments.
AC Bonus (Su) - +5 exalted bonus to AC.
Endure Elements (Ext) - Constantly warded against medium-intensity weather effects.
Feat - 3: Weapon Focus [Unarmed Strike]
Level 4 (Paladin/Monk)
d10
BAB+4, Fort+4, Ref+4, Will+4
Turn Outsider (Su) - 3 + Cha. mod./day. As cleric three levels below.
Flurry of Blows - +2/+2
Unarmed Strike - 1d8
Ki Strike (Su) - Magic
Slow Fall (Ext) - 20ft.
Exalted Strike (Sob) - +1 enhancement bonus to weapon (unarmed strike).
Feat - Exalted: Intuitive Attack (Use Wis. mod. instead of Str. for attacks with simple or natural weapons.)
Spells: 1 - 2/day (not counting extra spells)
Ability Score: +1 Cha.
Level 5 (Paladin/Monk)
d10
BAB+5, Fort+4, Ref+4, Will+4
Smite Evil 2/day
Flying Lion (Su) - 1/ay, as a full-round action, you sprout wings from your back. The wings remains for 10 minutos per paladin level, but can be dismissed as a free action. You can fly with your normal land speed with poor maneuverability. Taken from the Lion Legionnaire variant as alternative for special mount.
Flurry of Blows - +4/+4
AC Bonus - +1 CA
Purity of Body (Ext) - Immunity to mundane diseases.
Sustenance (Ext) - You no longer need to eat or drink.
Level 6 (Paladin/Monk)
d10
BAB+6, Fort+5, Ref+5, Will+5
Flurry of Blows - +5/+5/+0
Slow Fall 30ft.
Fast Movement +20ft.
AC Bonus - +6 exalted bonus on AC.
Deflection (Su) - +1 deflection bonus on AC.
Feat - 6: True Believer (1/day, when you are about to roll a save, declare you are using this feat to gain +2 insight bonus on the save.)
Feat - Monk: Combat Reflexes
Feat - Exalted: Exalted Turning (+3d6 when turning)
Spells: 1 - 2/day
Level 7 (Paladin/Monk)
d10
BAB+7, Fort+5, Ref+5, Will+5
Flurry of Blows - +6/+6/+1
Wholeness of Body (Su) - You can heal your own wounds. You can heal an amount of damage up to two times your monk level per day.
Resistance (Ext) - +1 resistance bonus on all saving throws.
Ability Score Enhancement (Ext) - +2 Wis
Level 8 (Paladin/Monk)
d10
BAB+8, Fort+6, Ref+6, Will+6
Dispel Evil 1/week
Flurry of Blows - +7/+7/+2
Unarmed Strike - 1d10
Slow Fall 40ft.
Natural Armor (Ext) - +1 natural armor bonus to AC
Mind Shielding (Ext) - Immunity to Detect thoughts, Discern lies and any attempt to discern your alignment.
Feat - Exalted: Servant of the Heavens (1/day, when executing an act of good, you can invoke your archon patron to gain a +1 luck bonus on any roll or save.)
Spells: 1 - 3/day, 2 - 1/day
Ability Score: +1 Cha.
Level 9 (Human Paragon/Monk)
d8
BAB+8, Fort+6, Ref+6, Will+8
Adaptable Leraning (Ext) - Handle Animal, in order to enter Fist of the Forest.
Flurry of Blows - +8/+8/+3
Fast Movement +30ft.
Improved Evasion
AC Bonus - +7 exalted bonus to AC.
Feat - 9: Iron Will
Level 10 (Fist of the Forest/Monk)
d10
BAB+9, Fort+9, Ref+9, Will+7
AC Bonus (Ext) - Constitution
Fast Movement - +10 additional ft.
Battle Trance (Feral Trance) (Su) - 1/day, you enter a battle trance. While in this state, you receive +4 Dex. bonus and +2 damage bonus with unarmed strikes. You gain an extra attack that causes 1d6 + your Str. modifier. The trance lasts for 3 + your Const. mod. turns. While in a trance, you suffer the same limitations as if in a barbarian's rage.
Ascetic Living (Primal Living) (Ext) - In order to maintain your Fist of Phieran powers, you must not sleep indoors and buy food. You must sleep outdoors and hunt, gather or beg for food.
Unarmed Strike - 2d6
Flurry of Blows - +9/+9/+4
AC Bonus - +2
Ki Strike (Lawful)
Slow Fall 50ft.
Exalted Strike - +2 enhancement bonus to weapon (unarmed strike). Your attacks are considered good-aligned for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
Damage reduction 5/magic (Su)
Feat - Exalted: Sanctify Ki Strike (Your unarmed attacks cause 1 additional damage to evil creatures, or 1d4 additional damage to evil outsiders or evil undead. Your unarmed attacks are considered good-aligned for purposes of overcoming damage reduction.)
Level 11 (Fist of the Forest/Monk)
d10
BAB+10, Fort+10, Ref+10, Will+7
Uncanny Dodge (Ext)
Spiritual Strike (Untamed Strike) (Su) - Your unarmed strike is considered a lesser ghost touch weapon.
Flurry of Blows - +10/+10/+10/+7
Diamond Body (Sob) - Immunity to poison.
Ability Score Enhancemente: +4 Wisdom, +2 Dexterity
Level 12 (Mystic Wanderer/Monk)
d8
BAB+11, Fort+11, Ref+12, Will+9
Glory of the Divine (Su) - Unarmored, you add your Cha bonus to AC.
Sleep (Sp) - You can use Sleep 1/day as a sorcerer of a level as your Mystic Wanderer level plus your previous highest divine spellcaster. (DC = 11 + Cha modifier)
Flurry of Blows - +11/+11/+11/+6/+1
Unarmed Strike - 2d8
Fast Movement - +40ft.
Slow Fall 60ft.
Abundant Step (Su) - 1/dia, you can move as if using Dimensional Door at a spellcasting level equal to half your monk level.
AC Bonus - +8 exalted bonus on AC.
Deflection - +2 deflection bonus on AC.
Greater Sustenance (Ext) - You don't need to breathe.
Feat - 12: Superior Unarmed Strike (Unarmed strike as a monk of four levels higher)
Feat - Exalted: Holy Ki Strike (Your unarmed strikes cause 2d6 additional holy damage to evil creatures. Besides, your attacks are considered holy for overcoming damage reduction. This feat doesn't stack with Sanctify Ki Strike.)
Ability Score: +1 Cha.
Level 13 (Pious Templar/Monk)
d10
BAB+12, Fort+13, Ref+12, Will+11
Mettle (Su)
Flurry of Blows - +12/+12/+12/+7/+2
Diamond Soul (Ext) - Spell Resistance equal to 10 + monk level.
Resistance - +2 resistance bonus on all saves.
Energy Resistance (Ext) - Resistance 5 to acid, cold, electric, fire and sonic damage
Spells: 1 - 4/day; 2 - 1/day
Level 14 (Swordsage/Monk)
d8
BAB+13, Fort+14, Ref+14, Will+13
Quick to Act - +1 to initiative
Discipline Focus (Weapon Focus) - Shadow Hand (Unarmed)
Flurry of Blows - +13/+13/+13/+8/+3
Unarmed Strike - 2d10
Slow Fall 70ft.
Exalted Strike - +3 enhancement bonus to weapon (unarmed strike).
Freedom of Movement (Ext) - You act as if continuosly under the effect of Freedom of Movement.
Feat - Exalted: Gift of Grace (Share your Divine Grace bonus with an ally)
Maneuvers: 4 prepared - Sudden Leap, Wind Stride, Counter Charge, Mighty Throw, Stone Bones, Burning Blade
Stances: Child of Shadow
Level 15 (Swordsage/Monk)
d8
BAB+14, Fort+14, Ref+15, Will+14
AC Bonus - Wisdom. Doesn't stack.
Flurry of Blows - +14/+14/+14/+9/+4 or +12/+12/+12/+12/+7/+2
AC Bonus - +3
Fast Movement - 50ft.
Quivering Palm (Su) - 1/week. Control target's living (DC 10 + 1/2 monk level + Wisdom modifier).
AC Bonus - +9 exalted bonus on AC.
Ability Score Enhancement: +6 Wisdom, +4 Dexterity, +2 Constitution
Damage Reduction 5/evil
Talento 15: Snap Kick (You can execute an extra attack per round. If you do, all your attacks are at a -2 penalty for the round.)
Manobras: Clinging Shadow Strike
Posturas: Island of Blades
Level 16 (Swordsage/Monk)
d8
BAB+15, Fort+15, Ref+16, Will+15
Flurry of Blows - 14/+14/+14/+9/+4 or +12/+12/+12/+12/+7/+2
Ki Strike (Adamantine)
Slow Fall 80ft.
Natural Armor - +2 natural armor bonus to AC.
Feat - Exalted: Exalted Spell Resistance (+4 on Spell Resistance against evil spells and spell-like abilities of evil outsiders)
Maneuvers: 5 prepared - Emerald Razor
Stances: Step of the Wind
Ability Score: +1 Cha.
Level 17 (Swordsage/Monk)
d8
BAB+15, Fort+16, Ref+17, Will+16
Flurry of Blows - +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 or +13/+13/+13/+13/+8/+3
Timeless Body (Ext) - No more penalties by aging and immunity to magical aging.
Tongue of the Sun and Moon (Ext) - You can communicate with any living creature.
Quick to Act - +2 bonus on Initiative
Exalted Strike - +4 enhancement bonus on your weapon (unarmed strike)
Resistance - +3 resistance bonus on all saves
Regeneration (Ext) - Heals 1 point of damage per level every hour, instead of every day. Nonlethal damage heals at a rate of 1 point of damage every 5 minutes.
Maneuvers: Clever Positioning
Level 18 (Swordsage/Monk)
d8
BAB+16, Fort+16, Ref+18, Will+17
Discipline Focus: Insightful Strike (Setting Sun) - You can apply your Wisdom modifier to damage with strikes from the chosen discipline.
Flurry of Blows - +16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1 or +14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+4/-1
Fast Movement 60ft
Slow Fall 90ft.
AC Bonus - +10 exalted bonus to AC.
Deflection - +3 deflection bonus to AC.
True Seeing (Su) - You have True Seeing active at all times.
Feat - 18: Shadow Blade (While in a stance of the Shadow Hand disciplin, you add your Dexterity modifier as bonus to damage with favored weapons of the chosen discipline)
Feat - Exalted: Nimbus of Light (You shed a pure radiance that good creatures automatically recognize as a sign of purity and servitude to the forces of good. +2 on Diplomacy and Sense Motives checks with good-aligned creatures. Your nimbus sheds light as a common torch, and it can be suppressed and reactivated at will, as a free action.)
Maneuvers: 6 prepared - Devastating Throw
Stances: Dance of the Spider
Level 19 (Swordsage/Monk)
d8
BAB+17, Fort+17, Ref+19, Will+18
Flurry of Blows - +17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2 or+15/+15/+15/+15/+10/+5/+0
Empty Body (Su) - You can use Etherealness a number of times per day equal to your monk level.
Damage Reduction 10/evil
Ability Score Enhancement: +8 Wisdom, +6 Dexterity, +4 Constitution, +2 Strength
Maneuvers: Stone Dragon's Fury
Level 20 (Swordsage/Monk)
d8
BAB+18, Fort+18, Ref+20, Will+19
Sense Magic (Sob) - By spending 10 minutes with a magic item, you can identify all of its properties, by succeeding in a level check.
Flurry of Blows - +18/+18/+18/+13/+9/+3 or +16/+16/+16/+16/+11/+6/+1
AC Bonus - +4
Slow Fall (Any distance)
Perfect Self - You become an outsider. Damage Reduction 10/magic.
Disciplin Focus: Defensive Stance (Shadow Hand) - You gain +2 on saves when you are in a stance of the chosen discipline.
Exalted Strike - +5 enhancement bonus on your weapon (unarmed strike).
Energy Resistance - Resistance 15 to acid, cold, electric, sonic and fire damage
Feat - Exalted: Stigmata (Heal damage of others by receiving Cons. damage)
Maneuvers: Comet Throw
Ability Score: +1 Cha.

So, by my calculations, by level 20 the character will be an outsider with an AC of 57, saves of Fort+33, Ref+37 (+39 in trance), Will+38, 11d10+9d8+100 HP, +9 initiative bonus, an attack bonus of +34 (+41 with smite evil), with 2d10+16 damage not counting power attack (2d10+20, while in trance) (against evil creatures: +2d6 holy damage, +8 smite evil damage, +touch of golden ice), the possibility of seven attacks per round, speed of 100ft., SR 30, DR 10/magic and 10/evil, Resistance 15 to fire, acid, electric, sonic and cold. Also, regeneration, immunity to fear, mundane diseases, poison, some mind-affecting spells and magical aging, along with several conditional bonuses. Unarmed strikes function as magic, lawful, good, holy, adamantine and +5 weapon to overcome damage reduction. Improved Evasion and Mettle. Continuous true seeing, endure elements and freedom of movement, coupled with no need to breathe, eat or sleep and the possibility of flight.

Oh, and I also want to acquire the Saint template. Already shipped the idea to the DM.

With all that, I guess the character turned out really good, but you guys have more experience on that. What do you think?

[Flickerdart]

For Gestalt, that's not exactly impressive. Your damage is not great even for a normal character, and your HP is remarkably low.

Let's take a regular orc barbarian and match him up against your guy. With 20 BAB and +18 Strength (18 + 6 item + 5 Tome + 5 levels + 4 race + 8 rage) he attacks at +38, 4 more than you. Except he also has a magic weapon, giving him +5 to hit and damage. I don't really feel like messing around with a fancy stick so let's make it Collision and Speed to round out the bonuses. As a fighty type, he took Power Attack and a greatsword, sinking the extra 10 points of to-hit he has on top of you into damage. So you both swing at +34, but he deals 2d6+21+5+5+20=58 average damage per hit against your 2d10+20=31 average damage per hit. He makes 5 attacks for 290 damage, you make 7 attacks for 217 damage. He's also much less vulnerable to DR, with the possibility of a special material weapon or weapon crystals, or just smashing through it with fewer attacks/round than you need.

Now for HP. You have 11d10+9d8+100 HP (more accurately, 10+10d10+9d8+100, since first HD is maxed) which is an average of 205. The random barbarian can easily achieve 28 Constitution (14 base, +6 item, +8 rage) for a +9 modifier, netting 12+19d12+180, or 315 HP. He has half of your DR, except it applies to everything.

Your AC (and saves, though that's mostly thanks to gratuitous multiclassing) is quite good, but that's not really going to be of much use when your offense is weak. You've got a lot of chrome, but if your gestalt build can't beat a vanilla orc barbarian, your backbone really needs work.

[j_spencer93]

nothing wrong with VoP or Monk in an actually game as is. Only problems really appear in high powered games. Have had many, no problem.

[Troacctid]

VoP doesn't automatically make you bad. It just makes you worse than you would be if you had magic items. The math adds up such that the bonuses you get are slightly weaker than what you could have gotten with the standard wealth for your level. Furthermore, it costs you two feats, and all you get in return are Exalted feats, of which there are very few that are worthwhile. (Just look at your build--it only takes until level 8 before you're reduced to taking Servant of the Heavens.)

Anyway, you should really take the Serenity feat if you're going to be a Paladin//Monk. It keys all your Paladin abilities off of Wisdom, so you don't have to worry about boosting Charisma anymore.

[Mr.Kraken]

Well, the character is not supposed to be a heavy hitter (except when dealing with evil), and that barbarian may seem stronger at first, he would struggle to land a hit on him, and meanwhile, the barbarian's low AC would get easily overcome. My point is, it's not fair to compare characters with different concepts, especially since there is something called strategy that can change the flow of a battle.

@Troacctid, yeah, the lack of Exalted feats is lame, but I think some fit well with the build. I've thought of Serenity, but it would hurt the Mystic Wanderer dip and it was very difficult to find room for some feats.

[Flickerdart]

Well, the character is not supposed to be a heavy hitter (except when dealing with evil), and that barbarian may seem stronger at first, he would struggle to land a hit on him, and meanwhile, the barbarian's low AC would get easily overcome. My point is, it's not fair to compare characters with different concepts, especially since there is something called strategy that can change the flow of a battle.
This has nothing to do with PvP or character concepts. I'm illustrating that your overwrought gestalt build just doesn't have the numbers to do what a melee warrior needs to do (take hits and dish 'em out). The fact that I happened to use an orc barbarian is utterly irrelevant to the point I'm making, and focusing on it won't get you anywhere.

High defenses don't matter unless you're giving your enemies a reason to attack you in the first place. This is the #1 trap that makes people think VoP monks can do things.

[Seppo87]

"Monk that works" for fighting is old news. Even commoners can be optimized.
VoP being viable for fighting only is old news as well. VoP is bad because it prevents most non-fighting options, including spells with material components/foci, spellbooks, magic items - the things that actually matter in terms of tiers

(Does not apply if you're a Psion)

[j_spencer93]

Since we apparently are stuck on VOP sucks, see how X is better, i will try to get this back to the point.
You honestly are a decent build, except as stated you are weak for a gestalt and weaker then a barbarian (funny they are frequently quoted as being one of the few good melee classes so idk why they got brought in). You have some good abilities that keep you immune to choking, etc although those do not come up as often as other things.
Your AC is fine. At high enough levels it takes a second seat anyways, although your melee doesn't hold up if your fighting really strong creatures but as stated before, few melee builds stand up at that point. Fighting evil targets will be were you shine the best.
If your able to get saint you become even better, that template is a little OP in my opinion.

Thinking you will do just fine honestly, also VOP is really strict on what items you can carry (debate on if you can only use a staff or something or similar worth, think its just nitpicking though). Fluffwise you are golden and that is what matters in an RPG.

[Troacctid]

I think you would do better with the prestige classes (and Swordsage) on the Monk side. The high levels of Paladin are better than the high levels of Monk. It's the spellcasting that makes the difference. 4th level spells are better than a bigger unarmed damage die, especially if you can auto-quicken them with Battle Blessing. The improved special mount is good too.

Also, you have all these Exalted feats, might as well pick up the Saint template if you can. You should qualify for it easily enough, it fits well with what you're trying to do (more Wis to AC!), and it's more powerful than, like, 2 levels of Monk or whatever.

[Mr.Kraken]

@j_spencer93, thanks for the encouragement.

@Troacctid, that's something to think about, but I was trying to raise my defenses as much as I could. My fellow party member is a gestalt Wizard//Factotum that's probably gonna shine on everything he does. I wanted to shine on something, and I chose it to be tanking. If I go that way, my Reflexes will get hurt - probably not so much, gotta do the math.

[Greenish]

If you're attacked by a scorpion and a cockroach, which one do you try to squish first?

[Mr.Kraken]

There's something I want to ask regarding the Sentinel, from Dragon #310. Most of his abilities are focused on fighting evil outsiders, but his Turn Outsider lets him turn any kind of outsider, not only evil. That means I could turn an angel, if I had the need to. Do you think Turn Outsider should be RAW or RAI to be used only against evil outsiders?

[j_spencer93]

now your getting good advice lol seriously though don't limit yourself more, use it as written.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would consider instead a VOP Cleric 20 // monk 4 / Favored Soul 1 / PRC paladin 15

Here you get some interesting stuff. You get tons of lower level spells to buff and throw around healing, with 20th level cleric casting and 9th level favored soul casting. This makes up for lots of the really big holes in VOP, like lack of flight.

[eggynack]

I would consider instead a VOP Cleric 20 // monk 4 / Favored Soul 1 / PRC paladin 15

Here you get some interesting stuff. You get tons of lower level spells to buff and throw around healing, with 20th level cleric casting and 9th level favored soul casting. This makes up for lots of the really big holes in VOP, like lack of flight.
I'd consider druid over cleric. Druids get the best exalted feats, and are incentivized to not use items.

[Fouredged Sword]

I'd consider druid over cleric. Druids get the best exalted feats, and are incentivized to not use items.

Druid does not mix well with Paladin. Alignment miss-match. But yes, druid is likely mechanically better in this situation. Wildshape solves many problems that items are used to cover.

[eggynack]

Druid does not mix well with Paladin. Alignment miss-match.
Issue in some situations, but apparently not in this one, given the character in question's alignment.

[Flickerdart]

Druid does not mix well with Paladin.
Prestige Paladin is a variant rule that's up to the DM anyway - it's not too much of a stretch to ask them to adapt it to any of the variants, including an NG, LN, CN, or NE one.

[Karl Aegis]

While... interesting... for a Monkday thread, it doesn't really look like Vow of Poverty, Paladin or Monk really add anything to this build. Nymph's Kiss seems to have been skipped over in favor of Human Paragon at a level where Monk doesn't give a point of BAB. Some class features have interesting readings of them (not quite RAW to boot). Overall it just looks like a ball of stats with nothing to do with them.

[j_spencer93]

all in all you have nothing special you can do in your build. honestly it has stats and some interesting defenses but when it comes down to it, you can punch evil hard. and not as hard as other Gestalts could, however i believe hard enough as long as your party members arent more optimized.
On here, having alot of versatility or extremely optimized in one area is generally considered the way to go, which isn't bad. You simply lack something that will make you stand out or excel with this build.

[Mr.Kraken]

Well, I never wanted to play with a "perfect" character anyway. It's just that I see a lot of hate on monks and VoP for lack of diversity, but with this build, I've managed to reach at least an average level of possibilities and somewhat good numbers, especially defensively.

I didn't overlook Nymph's Kiss, I really wanted that feat, but taken into consideration that you're supposed to have "intimate relationships" with fey, my Vow of Chastity prevented me from taking it.

The idea for the build came from when I read a text on templars that described them as warrior-monks that swore a vow of poverty, chastity and abstinence. I decided to try and stat that.

I've took some advice from you guys and switched Vow of Abstinence with Serenity and took some points away from Charisma and put them onto Wisdom. That made some numbers skyrocket.

[Karl Aegis]

The Monk class actually does a poor job representing actual monks. They more represent someone who flunked out of ninja school but nobody bothered telling them they were in ninja school in the first place. So, while they do have the basics down (hitting people with their fists, weaponizing farm implements and not being good fighting head-on) they fail to use any of the advanced tools and skills a typical ninja would possess. Instead their mentor decided they would be better off chasing perfection; which is ironic considering they would have never been able to perfect their skills in the first place.

[eggynack]

It doesn't really seem like you're overcoming the weaknesses of VoP all that much, and to the extent that you are, it seems to have more to do with things that aren't paladin and monk. The general rule of VoP is that it makes things less good, and there's little to indicate that something else is happening here. The same tends to be true of monks. It's possible that you'll have a positive experience with your character, but from a broad objective perspective, it's a character rather low in power level.

A straight completely ungestalted druid, either with or without VoP, would hold significantly more power, as would a number of lesser options. I'm not saying you shouldn't play this character, or that you shouldn't do as your heart dictates in general, but there's not much here to sway me from my base opinions of these things. Whether it's a "good" character from some other perspective, like roleplaying or fun, I cannot say, but I suspect the answer is that it's a rather subjective thing. It's certainly not the sort of character I would choose to run.

[Mr.Kraken]

I understand, thank you all for the honesty. I was well aware of the weaknesses of monk and vop paladin, but the build somehow surprised me, and I'm really looking forward to playing with the character. You see, I'm not a big optimizer, and while I was looking for a way to do it, all of my choices were based mostly on fluff. While the character may not have the potential that others would, I'm sure he won't be "worthless".

He will have 100ft. flight speed to face flying enemies.
SR, good saves, improved evasion, mettle, resistance to energy and good mobility to face spellcasters.
Lesser ghost touch unarmed strikes and etherealness to face incorporeal creatures.
Very high AC and average fighting ability to face melee enemies.
Good number of immunities, resistances and conditional bonuses.
And against evil creatures, the great majority of enemies, good amount of damage and touch of golden ice as a trump card.
Not mentioning maneuvers and stances to give him some more options.

With that aside, is there any (mostly) monk build that y'all would consider good?

[Karl Aegis]

Does it have to use levels of the dropout ninja class in the player's handbook or can we use the NPC Expert class that can reliably mimic what a real monk could actually do?

[Mr.Kraken]

Does it have to use levels of the dropout ninja class in the player's handbook or can we use the NPC Expert class that can reliably mimic what a real monk could actually do?

For my character, the class was needed as I wanted to focus on the spiritual side of it. But feel free.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Monk 20//Sorcerer 5/Incantatrix 10/Abjurant Champion 5

Or something like that (adding Paladin 2 is obviously better, but this uses monk 20). Using the monk as a chassis for the more vulnerable casting classes. You can actually choose to go flurrying here, six attacks with some nice persistent buffs.

[eggynack]

[QUOTE]SR, good saves, improved evasion, mettle, resistance to energy and good mobility to face spellcasters.
This doesn't really handle most of the big stuff that casters can throw around, especially later in the game. What you really want to do, with casters, is be proactive. A melee character running up to a caster and stabbing them to death doesn't have a big chance, particular later on, but they do have at least some chance. A melee character relying on having enough defenses to overcome the ridiculously varied offensive potential of a caster has a much smaller chance.


With that aside, is there any (mostly) monk build that y'all would consider good?
There are some things a monk can do. Tashalatora and wild monk are two of the classics, mostly because they don't really depend all that heavily on monk. Of particular note for actually monk focused monks are dark moon disciple, which grants shadow blend, and invisible fist, which grants sporadic and repeating invisibility. Beyond that, a lot depends on itemization because monks can pull off some weird stuff with unarmed strikes. However, there's definitely an upper limit to how good these things can be. A non-wild and non-tashalatora monk that goes monk 20, or something comparable, probably tops out around high tier 4, and maybe low tier 3 if you really push things.

[Flickerdart]

Well, I never wanted to play with a "perfect" character anyway. It's just that I see a lot of hate on monks and VoP for lack of diversity, but with this build, I've managed to reach at least an average level of possibilities and somewhat good numbers, especially defensively.
The problem isn't that they aren't diverse. It's that they aren't diverse in one particular direction - being useful when the job isn't "run away from the enemy before they figure out how to kill you". Your build doesn't exactly correct this problem, because you're still just pumping defense while your offense lags behind.

[Karl Aegis]

It's a class adept at sneaking into a child's room through defenses a child wouldn't be expected to bypass and stealing their cradle. I don't think there is anything spiritual about it.

[(Un)Inspired]

When I build a character I want it to be able to have something useful it can do no matter what problem the party encounters. Have to sit there, unable to contribute, while your party kicks ass sucks, ya know?

I like to use Jaron K's classic examples of diverse problems a character can face as a measuring stick to see if my PCs would actually be fun to play.

The scenarios are:


Situation 1: A Black Dragon has been plaguing an area, and he lives in a trap filled cave. Deal with him.

Situation 2: You have been tasked by a nearby country with making contact with the leader of the underground slave resistance of an evil tyranical city state, and get him to trust you.

Situation 3: A huge army of Orcs is approaching the city, and should be here in a week or so. Help the city prepare for war.

Can your Palladin//Monk solve//usefully contribute in all of these situations?

[Mr.Kraken]

Situation 1: The character would face the dragon, wary of the traps in the cave. He could deal with most mundane traps with his high saves, or he could use Etherealness to ignore them and go straight to the dragon's chamber, with luck. Facing the dragon would be interesting. The dragon's breath would be useless against the character's immunity to poison, and black dragons are evil, so all my offensive bonuses against evil creatures would apply.

Situation 2: This one could be against my alignment and character, but ignoring that, I plan on having the highest Diplomacy and Sense Motive as possible. This situation would definetly pose as a challenge, since I don't plan on having high Bluff, but I would be immune to discern alignment, discern lies and detect thoughts, so with good planning, an infiltration would be possible. If the mission is to make the slave resistance succeed, than the evil tyrannical lords would be my natural enemies, and again, my offensive bonuses would apply. If the mission is to crush the resistance, again ignoring character, that souldn't pose as a problem either, as long as I manage to successfully infiltrate.

Situation 3: In this situation, my character would be posing as the religious or spiritual guide to those in need, as well as working together with the military in order to better defend the city. He may think of a good strategy and use his Diplomacy to convince the leaders of following it. Also, if things get ugly, the character would not be afraid to challenge the orc leader to proxy combat, or rush through the battlefield and take him out, even if this would be taken as suicidal.

[eggynack]

Situation 1: The character would face the dragon, wary of the traps in the cave. He could deal with most mundane traps with his high saves, or he could use Etherealness to ignore them and go straight to the dragon's chamber, with luck.
High saves seem like an obviously risky thing to depend on. Your saves are high, but they're not massively high. Etherealness is rather limited in duration, limits your vision, and halves your speed, so it's unlikely to last through the entire cave, and you don't have the ability to detect traps thus allowing you to time the etherealness against the traps.

Facing the dragon would be interesting. The dragon's breath would be useless against the character's immunity to poison, and black dragons are evil, so all my offensive bonuses against evil creatures would apply.
Black dragons have acid breath, not poison breath. Doesn't seem like your offensive prowess from VoP stuff would be sufficient to overcome a dragon either. Dragons be tough, after all.

[Mr.Kraken]

High saves seem like an obviously risky thing to depend on. Your saves are high, but they're not massively high. Etherealness is rather limited in duration, limits your vision, and halves your speed, so it's unlikely to last through the entire cave, and you don't have the ability to detect traps thus allowing you to time the etherealness against the traps.

Black dragons have acid breath, not poison breath. Doesn't seem like your offensive prowess from VoP stuff would be sufficient to overcome a dragon either. Dragons be tough, after all.

That is all true. I still have dimension door, flight and slow fall, so depending on traps, they could be overcome. About the black dragon, I still have acid resistance, but not enough to nullify the dragon's breath, but with Improved Evasion, that shouldn't be much of a problem. Dragons are highly charismatic creatures, and with touch of golden ice he would take 1d6+his Charisma modifier as Dexterity damage, and I deliver it every time I hit, so he wouldn't take long for him to fail his save. That, by itself, would make the fight less difficult.

Although, I fail to understand the point. (Un)Inspired said it's about not being able to do anything, not about doing everything. I'm not making a one-man party, you know.

[eggynack]

That is all true. I still have dimension door, flight and slow fall, so depending on traps, they could be overcome.
If this is at high level, then we're working with high level traps, and it seems unlikely that these resources would be sufficient to overcome those.

About the black dragon, I still have acid resistance, but not enough to nullify the dragon's breath, but with Improved Evasion, that shouldn't be much of a problem.
It's mostly just a method of turning time into damage, which is a useful thing given the fact that its speed is higher than yours.


Dragons are highly charismatic creatures, and with touch of golden ice he would take 1d6+his Charisma modifier as Dexterity damage, and I deliver it every time I hit, so he wouldn't take long for him to fail his save. That, by itself, would make the fight less difficult.
It looks like the dragon would just save on anything besides a natural one, and actually hitting the thing seems rather difficult.


Although, I fail to understand the point. (Un)Inspired said it's about not being able to do anything, not about doing everything. I'm not making a one-man party, you know.
I'm evaluating the contributions you claimed. They're rather flawed, especially given the fact that the etherealness isn't going to help a party.

[Mr.Kraken]

I see. I've already started playing as this character, so I'm not changing unless he dies. I could change the build, though, if it's really that bad. Do you have any suggestions? Please, take the fluff into consideration.

EDIT: What if I go monk up until 11 to get diamond body and greater flurry, and then go cleric 9? I guess that would make the build significantly better?

[Deadline]

I see. I've already started playing as this character, so I'm not changing unless he dies. I could change the build, though, if it's really that bad. Do you have any suggestions? Please, take the fluff into consideration.

This really depends on the optimization level of the game you are in. If the challenges are scaled to fit the party's capabilities, then you'll probably be fine. And you can even fill your role of 'tank' if the GM agrees to have enemies focus on trying to hit your AC rather than eating other party members first or ignoring your AC.

[eggynack]

I see. I've already started playing as this character, so I'm not changing unless he dies. I could change the build, though, if it's really that bad. Do you have any suggestions? Please, take the fluff into consideration.
Apart from ACF's like invisible fist, there's not a massive amount. The basic plan of a hyper-defensive VoP monk//paladin isn't one I think works all that well in general.

EDIT: What if I go monk up until 11 to get diamond body and greater flurry, and then go cleric 9? I guess that would make the build significantly better?
That still seems like an excess of monk, to be honest. Neither ability really does all that much. Typical monk break point tends to be a lot closer to 2. ACF's can boost that number some, however. Revising over to pretty much just a cleric, maybe running sacred fist from complete divine to get a bit of monk in there, would lead to a pretty powerful character though. My preference tends to lie with druids, especially if you're using VoP, but cleric does the job well enough.

Edit:
This really depends on the optimization level of the game you are in.
The game apparently has a wizard//factotum, which is one of the best gestalt combos in the game, so the optimization level is presumably pretty high. I guess it's possible to play a wizard//factotum badly though.

[Mr.Kraken]

Apart from ACF's like invisible fist, there's not a massive amount. The basic plan of a hyper-defensive VoP monk//paladin isn't one I think works all that well in general.

What I meant is that I could change at least the second-half of the class levels I took, monk included. But fluff has to be respected. Do you have any ideas?


That still seems like an excess of monk, to be honest. Neither ability really does all that much. Typical monk break point tends to be a lot closer to 2. ACF's can boost that number some, however. Revising over to pretty much just a cleric, maybe running sacred fist from complete divine to get a bit of monk in there, would lead to a pretty powerful character though. My preference tends to lie with druids, especially if you're using VoP, but cleric does the job well enough.

The idea of taking that much of Monk is mostly due to the good saves, improved evasion, unarmed damage increase and AC and speed bonus. Also, those abilities have their use.


The game apparently has a wizard//factotum, which is one of the best gestalt combos in the game, so the optimization level is presumably pretty high. I guess it's possible to play a wizard//factotum badly though.

The wizard//factotum is not a heavy optimizer (he was looking for a gestalt class, and I was the one who pointed him to factotum), but he is a good player. Also, he will limit himself to cold-based spells for fluff reasons. He plans on going Frost Mage as soon as he can.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You could revision your build to include, perhaps, a bit of Apostle of Peace. They're free to attack undead and constructs, those being nonliving, and with Banishment and Censure Fiends you can take care of evil outsiders. Leaves a whole host of enemies you can only deal with nonlethally, but nonlethal includes charms, binds and such (technically even Mindrape's effects qualify, though it's an [evil] spell, so you can't cast it), and there's a metamagic feat to make your spells nonlethal iirc. And as a monk, you can deal nonlethal damage at will, no penalty.

[Mr.Kraken]

You could revision your build to include, perhaps, a bit of Apostle of Peace. They're free to attack undead and constructs, those being nonliving, and with Banishment and Censure Fiends you can take care of evil outsiders. Leaves a whole host of enemies you can only deal with nonlethally, but nonlethal includes charms, binds and such (technically even Mindrape's effects qualify, though it's an [evil] spell, so you can't cast it), and there's a metamagic feat to make your spells nonlethal iirc. And as a monk, you can deal nonlethal damage at will, no penalty.

Thanks for the idea, but I want to avoid Apostle/Vow of Peace. I already have lots of limitations with three vows (two now, as I've replaced VoAbstinence with Serenity), code of conduct and primal living. I want to at least have some freedom to kick some kobold's scaly butts. :smallbiggrin:

[eggynack]

The idea of taking that much of Monk is mostly due to the good saves, improved evasion, unarmed damage increase and AC and speed bonus. Also, those abilities have their use.

Those things are decent, but they're really not worth the levels being spent on them. Good saves especially are problematic, because you'd usually do better relying on dip bonuses anyway. As an example, a monk 2 would gain the same total bonus to saves by taking two levels of fighter as they would by taking two levels of monk, and the same actually applies to taking monk 6 compared to monk 2/fighter 4. Saves are weird like that.

[Mr.Kraken]

Got it. Maybe, sacred fist then? Although, those required feats may be bothersome to take.

[eggynack]

Got it. Maybe, sacred fist then? Although, those required feats may be bothersome to take.
If you seek power within the concept, sure. The feats aren't actually that bothersome either. Improved unarmed strike and stunning fist come free, and you can actually use the second level of the denying stance variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#denyingStance) to pick up combat reflexes for free as well. That leaves just combat casting. Annoying, but not massively so.

[Mr.Kraken]

Thing is I've got most of my feats sorted out, mostly due to pre-reqs for the classes I have already. Had to take Power Attack instead of Stunning Fist at first level (Overwhelming Attack fighting style), so if I want to change anything I've gotta change lots of things or find a cheap way of getting more feats. Is there one?

[Mr.Kraken]

So, last session, we were facing a pack of Orcus worshipping orcs, and it definetly wasn't my day. We are level 3, and my paladin//monk has the highest AC in my group, that being 24. That proved meaningless, because the DM got so lucky with his dice rolls, that almost every time he attacked he would get a nat-20. So, I got hit quite a lot, until the moment the boss got two nat-20s, and my character, per our houserule, got killed.

So, in conclusion, I guess now I understand what you guys were trying to say. He was mostly useless in battle, because all he could do was attacking, and I only got bad numbers. With no other options besides attacking and tanking, bad luck on my part and extreme good luck on the DM's part, it definetly didn't end up well for him.

D&D really isn't just a numbers game. I'll keep using the character until he dies for good, but I will try to modify him as much as I can to give him some versatility.

I've decided to go with this build:
Paladin (Sentinel) 8/Human Paragon 1/Fist of Phieran (Fist of the Forest) 2/Mystic Wanderer 1/Pious Templar 1/Sacred Fist 7//Monk 12/Cleric 1/Battle Dancer 1/Fighter 4/Ranger 2

No, we're not using XP penalties for multiclassing. Sacred Fist improves the Cleric dip's spellcasting. Fighter was just for lack of base class options, and ranger, mostly to get Favored Enemy (Evil Outsiders). Battle Dancer dip gets his Cha (+5) to AC, and DM has allowed me to lift the alignment limitation.

[Karl Aegis]

Orcs do tend to win in melee. Unless you win as soon as you get into melee range you shouldn't really be near an orc.