Monk Shenanigans

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Hello. It's just the village idiot again.

I was reading through the Complete Psionic and ran across something interesting - the Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor. +8 armor bonus, -6 skill check, 25% ASF. But, it doesn't count as armor. I know there's another version that counts as light armor but this is the version I'm going on. My question - It doesn't count as armor, so can a monk wear it?

Another couple of things, since it's pretty much armor, could I spend the money to craft one that emulates Mithril full plate instead of regular steel? And can the Skin be enchanted as if it were armor? Since it can be activated at will and doesn't have a duration, it's basically a wear-all-the-time thing. Woah. That brings up the question of, since it's not armor, can I sleep in it without penalty?

I mean, this gives the possibility of making a nigh-unhittable monk. Adding the Skin to Dex, Wis bonus, various spells or powers, and the possible enhancements on the Skin.... Wow.

Look forward to hearing from ya'll.

[Karl Aegis]

Being "nigh-unhittable" doesn't add anything to the party. You're better off with Monstrous Humanoid Hit Dice and a template that improves them than Monk levels. The only thing good about a monk is the joke value of a fiendish gelatinous cube monk suddenly deflecting arrows and flurrying would-be attackers with better than slam damage.

[Troacctid]

You're describing Mage Armor. It's not exactly a game-breaking spell. Yes, there are ways to get an armor bonus without wearing armor. No, they don't make Monks overpowered. Monks have never had a problem with AC. Their problem is that they don't do anything.

[Starbuck_II]

Hello. It's just the village idiot again.

I was reading through the Complete Psionic and ran across something interesting - the Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor. +8 armor bonus, -6 skill check, 25% ASF. But, it doesn't count as armor. I know there's another version that counts as light armor but this is the version I'm going on. My question - It doesn't count as armor, so can a monk wear it?

Another couple of things, since it's pretty much armor, could I spend the money to craft one that emulates Mithril full plate instead of regular steel? And can the Skin be enchanted as if it were armor? Since it can be activated at will and doesn't have a duration, it's basically a wear-all-the-time thing. Woah. That brings up the question of, since it's not armor, can I sleep in it without penalty?

I mean, this gives the possibility of making a nigh-unhittable monk. Adding the Skin to Dex, Wis bonus, various spells or powers, and the possible enhancements on the Skin.... Wow.

Look forward to hearing from ya'll.
No, the original version isn't actually armor so no enchanting.
Yes, you can sleep in it.
But yes, it helps Monks, Druids, or etc have armor when they couldn't normally.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Being "nigh-unhittable" doesn't add anything to the party. You're better off with Monstrous Humanoid Hit Dice and a template that improves them than Monk levels. The only thing good about a monk is the joke value of a fiendish gelatinous cube monk suddenly deflecting arrows and flurrying would-be attackers with better than slam damage.

As a Monk, once you get defense down, the goal is to work on offense (at least in general). You can't beat things up if you die, either. There's also the cases where you'll be on you own - either as a scout, when you get separated from the group, or as a solo adventurer.

Being unhittable means you can then take levels in a caster class and never have to worry about AoO's. Add this to Monk's already-good saves and things like SR (from magic items, race, or just being a high-level monk), and your foes are hard-pressed to hurt you. One role you can play is the meat shield between the casters and the enemies - Since you're hard to hit, you won't even have to worry about absorbing the damage.

The "nigh-unhittable" was the starting point. Now that we've discussed something entirely different from the question I asked, again - Is it possible?

[Rystil Xilvertr]

No, the original version isn't actually armor so no enchanting.
Yes, you can sleep in it.
But yes, it helps Monks, Druids, or etc have armor when they couldn't normally.

Hmm. Variants are possible though. And honestly it's a magic item, so.

I'm a huge fan of getting good magic items and enhancing them further instead of carrying around tons of petty items. And also, thank you for actually answering the question I asked XD

[Rystil Xilvertr]

You're describing Mage Armor. It's not exactly a game-breaking spell. Yes, there are ways to get an armor bonus without wearing armor. No, they don't make Monks overpowered. Monks have never had a problem with AC. Their problem is that they don't do anything.

Take 6 levels in Monk, change to Chaotic and go for Barbarian. Rage + high unarmed damage (improved further with the feat from Tome Of Battle) + unhittable = WIN.

And not only Mage Armor. Sheild, Sheild of Faith, and even better - The augmentable Psionic versions.

[mashlagoo1982]

Take 6 levels in Monk, change to Chaotic and go for Barbarian. Rage + high unarmed damage (improved further with the feat from Tome Of Battle) + unhittable = WIN.

And not only Mage Armor. Sheild, Sheild of Faith, and even better - The augmentable Psionic versions.

I recommend consulting your DM before pursuing this build.

Reason being, I can easily see many DMs taking issue with going from Lawful to Chaotic in a single level.

Usually such a drastic change takes place gradually.
Alignment is the piece of your character that the DM has a good bit of control over.

[Karl Aegis]

Why didn't you take Sohei levels, get mithril full plate an animated shield and a two-handed weapon, 2nd level spells and useful immunities and then go into Bear Warrior to fight as a heavily armored bear? 1d8 + Strength is the same as a flail, not exactly that good.

[Troacctid]

Take 6 levels in Monk, change to Chaotic and go for Barbarian. Rage + high unarmed damage (improved further with the feat from Tome Of Battle) + unhittable = WIN.

And not only Mage Armor. Sheild, Sheild of Faith, and even better - The augmentable Psionic versions.

High unarmed damage... what? Why do you care about high unarmed damage? It's still less damage than a greatsword. Especially since you lost 2 BAB--that's 4 Power Attack damage you're missing out on.

High AC is cool and all, but enemies aren't always going to attack your AC. They're also going to attack your touch AC, your saves, your grapple mod, and, most importantly, your allies. Improving your own defenses is a good thing to do, but you're way overselling it here.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

I recommend consulting your DM before pursuing this build.

Reason being, I can easily see many DMs taking issue with going from Lawful to Chaotic in a single level.

Usually such a drastic change takes place gradually.
Alignment is the piece of your character that the DM has a good bit of control over.

Well yes, but that was the short version.

And actually, I'm running a campaign myself, so I was curious - Using this kind of thing to build a Monk/Barbarian Assassin to hunt down my PCs was the idea.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Why didn't you take Sohei levels, get mithril full plate an animated shield and a two-handed weapon, 2nd level spells and useful immunities and then go into Bear Warrior to fight as a heavily armored bear? 1d8 + Strength is the same as a flail, not exactly that good.

Eh. I hadn't seen Sohei, and was only mildly interested in Bear Warrior.

[Flickerdart]

You can't beat things up if you die, either.
Things can't beat you up if they die. PCs are more proactive by nature, and as a scout you want to kill your enemies before they raise the alarm, rather than let them wander off and come back with a hundred guys that your AC won't help against.

Remember - your levels and your wealth are limited resources, and you have to spread those resources across a whole slew of things. AC is just one of them - focusing on it to the exclusion of anything else until you "have it down" is going to result in a weak character. Dip into a caster after it's high? You'd be better off starting as a caster, both in terms of casting power and AC (buffs are pretty awesome). Transfer into being a barbarian? You're approximately 100% better off going barbarian first and then grabbing Fist of the Forest for monk-like features.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

High unarmed damage... what? Why do you care about high unarmed damage? It's still less damage than a greatsword. Especially since you lost 2 BAB--that's 4 Power Attack damage you're missing out on.

High AC is cool and all, but enemies aren't always going to attack your AC. They're also going to attack your touch AC, your saves, your grapple mod, and, most importantly, your allies. Improving your own defenses is a good thing to do, but you're way overselling it here.

Well this was mainly an effort to create an enemy my players would be highly unlikely to be able to take down.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Things can't beat you up if they die. PCs are more proactive by nature, and as a scout you want to kill your enemies before they raise the alarm, rather than let them wander off and come back with a hundred guys that your AC won't help against.

Remember - your levels and your wealth are limited resources, and you have to spread those resources across a whole slew of things. AC is just one of them - focusing on it to the exclusion of anything else until you "have it down" is going to result in a weak character. Dip into a caster after it's high? You'd be better off starting as a caster, both in terms of casting power and AC (buffs are pretty awesome). Transfer into being a barbarian? You're approximately 100% better off going barbarian first and then grabbing Fist of the Forest for monk-like features.

Interesting.

I wasn't focusing on it to the exclusion of everything else, per say, but more taking high interest in it.

-The main caster I was interested in was Assassin, or for manifesters, Warmind.
-The main reasons I was going for Barbarian were the high HD, high BAB, and Rage. The rest is just icing. It means you're more durable when you DO get high and can hit right back.
-Also, was thinking about Powerful Build and a few added... Shenanigans, such as said Assassin having a Mithral two-bladed sword that is enchanted to count as a monk weapon and as a light weapon.

[mashlagoo1982]

Well yes, but that was the short version.

And actually, I'm running a campaign myself, so I was curious - Using this kind of thing to build a Monk/Barbarian Assassin to hunt down my PCs was the idea.

That is very good to know.

Creating a PC monk isn't something I can get behind.

But making them a punching bag FOR the PCs... :smallbiggrin:

[Rystil Xilvertr]

That is very good to know.

Creating a PC monk isn't something I can get behind.

But making them a punching bag FOR the PCs... :smallbiggrin:

Not necessarily a punching bag - more like someone intent on murdering the daylights out of them that they can't seem to hit.

[Troacctid]

Well this was mainly an effort to create an enemy my players would be highly unlikely to be able to take down.

Oh, well in that case, I strongly recommend Dark Moon substitution levels. That'll make your Monk totally concealed (AKA untargetable without guessing his square) in any illumination less than full daylight. Combined with evasion, move silently, and a source of magical darkness, your players should have a pretty tough time hitting him regardless of his AC, especially if he keeps moving around. They might even think he's, like, a ghost, which would be hilarious.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Oh, well in that case, I strongly recommend Dark Moon substitution levels. That'll make your Monk totally concealed (AKA untargetable without guessing his square) in any illumination less than full daylight. Combined with evasion, move silently, and a source of magical darkness, your players should have a pretty tough time hitting him regardless of his AC, especially if he keeps moving around. They might even think he's, like, a ghost, which would be hilarious.

Hmm, Dark Moon? I think I've heard of that before; I'll look it up.

And yeah, making them think a ghost is out to kill them would be great. Especially if a "shadow" leaps from a bush, death attacked one of them, and disappeared.

Mmm, Shadowdancer is yummy.

[Karl Aegis]

Well this was mainly an effort to create an enemy my players would be highly unlikely to be able to take down.

The aforementioned Fiendish Gelatinous Cube Monk with a certain magic item (amulet of natural attacks maybe? It lets you give your unarmed strikes a weapon enhancement like Throwing) throwing itself into a stalactite, scrapping his gelatinous ooze across the stalactite and slow falling onto an enemy lets you deal automatic fall damage without targeting the opponent's Armor Class and gives you a means of escape if you do manage to engulf and paralyze someone. This can be done multiple times with the Flurry of Blows class feature.

Or you can just use the other mentioned templated monstrous humanoid.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

The aforementioned Fiendish Gelatinous Cube Monk with a certain magic item (amulet of natural attacks maybe? It lets you give your unarmed strikes a weapon enhancement like Throwing) throwing itself into a stalactite, scrapping his gelatinous ooze across the stalactite and slow falling onto an enemy lets you deal automatic fall damage without targeting the opponent's Armor Class and gives you a means of escape if you do manage to engulf and paralyze someone. This can be down multiple times with the Flurry of Blows class feature.

Or you can just use the other mentioned templated monstrous humanoid.

Sounds good mechanically but I like the idea of the players thinking a vengeful spirit is after them than being chased around by living acidic blubber.

[Zaq]

Several campaigns ago, my then-current GM sent the party up against a hard-to-hit Monk type. It was a memorable encounter only because it was one of the most boring encounters we've ever had. It took friggin' hours, because neither side could actually damage the other. It was really, really bad.

It did have a happy ending in that I came up with a creative solution to solve the problem, but it's sad that I was forced to do so because I was so damn bored. (The details are in the spoiler below, if anyone cares.)

Long story short, I don't recommend making a high-defense Monk for the party to fight. It's just going to drag out and take forever, because the Monk isn't going to be a threat to the party, and the party may or may not be a threat to the Monk, depending on just how high you crank their defenses. It wasn't a fun encounter, at all.

The room had a bunch of teleport tiles in it—step on one, get ported to the other. Simple enough. I happened to have high Disable Device and Sleight of Hand totals that day (Incarnates. Gotta love 'em), so I used Disable Device to pry one loose from the floor. I turned it upside down, stuck it in a corner, and placed the heaviest member of the party—a Wood Woad in full plate, mounted on a unicorn—on top of it, and I think something else stupidly heavy besides that. Anyway, I then pried the matching tile loose from the floor and used Sleight of Hand to force it underneath the Monk's feet, so he ended up teleporting into squishdom.

It's a funny story now, but if the GM hadn't happened to include those tiles, and if he hadn't let me get away with some creative thinking, that encounter might still be going on. I let it stand as a lesson to the GM—I will not actively go out of my way to antagonize the flow of the game, but if I'm desperately bored, I will find a way to amuse myself.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Several capmpaigns ago, my then-current GM sent the party up against a hard-to-hit Monk type. It was a memorable encounter only because it was one of the most boring encounters we've ever had. It took friggin' hours, because neither side could actually damage the other. It was really, really bad.

It did have a happy ending in that I came up with a creative solution to solve the problem, but it's sad that I was forced to do so because I was so damn bored. (The details are in the spoiler below, if anyone cares.)

Long story short, I don't recommend making a high-defense Monk for the party to fight. It's just going to drag out and take forever, because the Monk isn't going to be a threat to the party, and the party may or may not be a threat to the Monk, depending on just how high you crank their defenses. It wasn't a fun encounter, at all.

The room had a bunch of teleport tiles in it—step on one, get ported to the other. Simple enough. I happened to have high Disable Device and Sleight of Hand totals that day (Incarnates. Gotta love 'em), so I used Disable Device to pry one loose from the floor. I turned it upside down, stuck it in a corner, and placed the heaviest member of the party—a Wood Woad in full plate, mounted on a unicorn—on top of it, and I think something else stupidly heavy besides that. Anyway, I then pried the matching tile loose from the floor and used Sleight of Hand to force it underneath the Monk's feet, so he ended up teleporting into squishdom.

It's a funny story now, but if the GM hadn't happened to include those tiles, and if he hadn't let me get away with some creative thinking, that encounter might still be going on. I let it stand as a lesson to the GM—I will not actively go out of my way to antagonize the flow of the game, but if I'm desperately bored, I will find a way to amuse myself.


Actually, I'm planning on using this as a hit-and-run antagonist to keep them wary, as opposed to a face-to-face meleer.

[Karl Aegis]

Sounds good mechanically but I like the idea of the players thinking a vengeful spirit is after them than being chased around by living acidic blubber.

Transparent living acidic blubber made of pure evil.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Transparent living acidic blubber made of pure evil.

Still not as scary as a killer they can't see - If they can't see it, they can't identify it. I'm gonna use this as a distraction/nuisance in the next installment of my campaign. Fear of the unknown is a powerful thing.

[Svata]

Not necessarily a punching bag - more like someone intent on murdering the daylights out of them that they can't seem to hit.

Freezing Fog+Black Tentacles shuts it down as easy as it does anything else. The first sets your movement to 5' and prevents 5' steps (and requires saves/balance checks to not fall probe every round), the second cuts your movement in half, even if you avoid the grapple. 5/2=2.5=not a measurable distance=0 movement. Add in the residual cold damage and grapple damage and you're probably dead by the time it goes away with your d8 HD. Not to mention any further damage they manage to pile on while you're prone, grappled, and unable to move.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Freezing Fog+Black Tentacles shuts it down as easy as it does anything else. The first sets your movement to 5' and prevents 5' steps (and requires saves/balance checks to not fall probe every round), the second cuts your movement in half, even if you avoid the grapple. 5/2=2.5=not a measurable distance=0 movement. Add in the residual cold damage and grapple damage and you're probably dead by the time it goes away with your d8 HD. Not to mention any further damage they manage to pile on while you're prone, grappled, and unable to move.

Viable counter. Interesting.

[Svata]

Best part? Anyone with a Rod of Quicken Spell, or a Sorcerer with Greater Arcane Fusion can lay both of them down in a single round.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Best part? Anyone with a Rod of Quicken Spell, or a Sorcerer with Greater Arcane Fusion can lay both of them down in a single round.

I'll have to watch for this. My players may come up with a solution similar to yours.

Or, I'll just tweak my build and make the assassin use your solution on THEM.

[Karl Aegis]

A cube of pure evil using partially-charged wands. It just got real.

[eggynack]

5/2=2.5=not a measurable distance=0 movement.
Actually, if you have zero feet of movement, you're allowed to take a full round action to move five feet. It's thus not a perfect murder combo. It's still very strong though, and might just kill the monk on its own by merit of all of the movement stoppers outside of the solid fog+movement halving, combined with the low and repetitive damage. Tossing other damage into the mix works as well, if the two spells aren't sufficient.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

A cube of pure evil using partially-charged wands. It just got real.

Which reminds me i could add a dip into Artificer maybe, since I've allowed that class.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Actually, if you have zero feet of movement, you're allowed to take a full round action to move five feet. It's thus not a perfect murder combo. It's still very strong though, and might just kill the monk on its own by merit of all of the movement stoppers outside of the solid fog+movement halving, combined with the low and repetitive damage. Tossing other damage into the mix works as well, if the two spells aren't sufficient.

Hmm. That's interesting.

[Troacctid]

Here's a statblock for a pretty barebones Dark Moon assassin I whipped up a while back but never got to use. It's not very optimized, but deck him out with some more magic items and throw in some environmental hazards or minions as distractions and you could power him up nicely.

Half-Fiend Marrulurk RHD 3/Monk 7 (CR 13)
Size/type: Small outsider
Hit dice: 10d8+40
Initiative: +9
Speed: 40 ft land, 40 ft fly (good)
AC: 33 (+9 Dex, +5 Wis, +4 natural, +1 Monk, +1 size, +1 deflection, +2 armor), touch 27, flat-footed 24
Attack: Poisoned masterwork shuriken +22 ranged (2+1d6 sneak attack+poison) or unarmed strike +13 melee (1d6+2d6 sneak attack)
Full attack: 4 poisoned masterwork shurikens +19/+19/+19/+14 ranged
Special attacks: Death attack (DC 17), nauseating breath, poison use, sneak attack 2d6, smite good 1/day, spell-like abilities (darkness 3/day, desecrate, unholy blight, poison 3/day, contagion), flurry of blows
Special qualities: Discriminating hearing; darkvision 60 ft and low-light vision; damage reduction 5/magic; spell resistance 20; resistance to acid 10, cold 10, fire 10, electricity 10, and desiccation 10; immunity to poison and disease; evasion; shadow blend; still mind
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +20, Will +16
Ability scores (elite array): Str 14 (from 8), Dex 27+1 (from 15), Con 19+1 (from 13), Int 14 (from 10), Wis 20 (from 14), Cha 18 (from 12)
Feats: At Home in the Deep, Combat ReflexesB, Improved DisarmB, Improved Flight, Improved GrappleB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Point Blank ShotB, Rapid ShotB, Staggering Strike, Venomous Strike
Items: Cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1, vest of armor +2, gloves of dexterity +2, bracers of murder, anklet of translocation, scout's headband, hat of anonymity
Poisons aren't usually great past very low levels because of the low save DC, but it's flavorful, and with Venomous Strike boosting the DC and Rapid Shot/Flurry of Blows allowing extra attacks, there's a good chance they'll get a bad roll eventually. In the meantime, shadow blend makes him hard to pin down, and he has evasion, spell resistance, and energy resistance to counter AoE effects. If the PCs have daylight, they can strip away a lot of his defenses...but who prepares daylight anyway?

Of course, you could duplicate a lot of this by just adding the Shadow template to... basically anything.

[Rubik]

You want a monk that's basically unhittable that doesn't give a flying flip about AC?

Here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) His AC is less than amazing. Good luck hurting him, though.

[Vortenger]

The only thing good about a monk...


Creating a PC monk isn't something I can get behind.


...because the Monk isn't going to be a threat to the party, and the party may or may not be a threat to the Monk...

This sentiment surprises me here in GitP. I mean, sure, the monk has a horribad optimization floor, but as far as non-initiating martials go it has one of the higher ceilings. Using ACF's out the wazoo monks can be pretty bad@$$.

Using Invisible Fist, Wall Runner, and Darkmoon sub levels you get to be invisible about as often as a PF ninja, are nigh undetectable in low light (which you're going to ensure, right?), can move through walls (!), and you can run along walls Prince of Persia style.

Damage-wise, monks can outperform even most optimized martials: at lvl 20 (15 with a monk's belt, lower with another item I can't remember) using Improved Natural Attack, Ectoplasmic Fists, and Greater Mighty Wallop you swing for 12d8 per hit before strength or enhancements. Speaking of enhancements, only unarmed strike users gets to stack Greater Magic Fang, Ward Cestus, Amulet Of Natural Attacks, Amulet of Mighty Fists, & Bracers of Striking for up to +30 points of weapon enhancements. Add in the Decisive Strike ACF and the usual ubercharging methods and you have ghost-faced killer worthy of the name. Then there's Mantis Leap if you really like cheese. Even at level 10 with level appropriate buffs, you can expect to be competitive against a charging barbarian for damage output.

I feel that the monk gets a worse rep than it deserves. Sure, the core version is garbage, but just as the bard becomes a force to reckon with with splat support (DFI, Song of the Heart, etc.), so too does the monk. Why, then do people acknowledge the Bard's full breadth of scope, but not the monk?

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Here's a statblock for a pretty barebones Dark Moon assassin I whipped up a while back but never got to use. It's not very optimized, but deck him out with some more magic items and throw in some environmental hazards or minions as distractions and you could power him up nicely.

Half-Fiend Marrulurk RHD 3/Monk 7 (CR 13)
Size/type: Small outsider
Hit dice: 10d8+40
Initiative: +9
Speed: 40 ft land, 40 ft fly (good)
AC: 33 (+9 Dex, +5 Wis, +4 natural, +1 Monk, +1 size, +1 deflection, +2 armor), touch 27, flat-footed 24
Attack: Poisoned masterwork shuriken +22 ranged (2+1d6 sneak attack+poison) or unarmed strike +13 melee (1d6+2d6 sneak attack)
Full attack: 4 poisoned masterwork shurikens +19/+19/+19/+14 ranged
Special attacks: Death attack (DC 17), nauseating breath, poison use, sneak attack 2d6, smite good 1/day, spell-like abilities (darkness 3/day, desecrate, unholy blight, poison 3/day, contagion), flurry of blows
Special qualities: Discriminating hearing; darkvision 60 ft and low-light vision; damage reduction 5/magic; spell resistance 20; resistance to acid 10, cold 10, fire 10, electricity 10, and desiccation 10; immunity to poison and disease; evasion; shadow blend; still mind
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +20, Will +16
Ability scores (elite array): Str 14 (from 8), Dex 27+1 (from 15), Con 19+1 (from 13), Int 14 (from 10), Wis 20 (from 14), Cha 18 (from 12)
Feats: At Home in the Deep, Combat ReflexesB, Improved DisarmB, Improved Flight, Improved GrappleB, Improved Unarmed StrikeB, Point Blank ShotB, Rapid ShotB, Staggering Strike, Venomous Strike
Items: Cloak of resistance +3, ring of protection +1, amulet of natural armor +1, vest of armor +2, gloves of dexterity +2, bracers of murder, anklet of translocation, scout's headband, hat of anonymity
Poisons aren't usually great past very low levels because of the low save DC, but it's flavorful, and with Venomous Strike boosting the DC and Rapid Shot/Flurry of Blows allowing extra attacks, there's a good chance they'll get a bad roll eventually. In the meantime, shadow blend makes him hard to pin down, and he has evasion, spell resistance, and energy resistance to counter AoE effects. If the PCs have daylight, they can strip away a lot of his defenses...but who prepares daylight anyway?

Of course, you could duplicate a lot of this by just adding the Shadow template to... basically anything.

Cool. It's interesting and I may use that. I was also looking at the Monk of the Long Death from the Player's Guide to Faerun.

[eggynack]

Why, then do people acknowledge the Bard's full breadth of scope, but not the monk?
Core bard is a solid tier 3, on the basis of somewhat delayed access to a rather amazing list, backed up by solid skill use, some decent bardic music abilities, and a reasonable chassis. It's mostly the list, really. Sure, the bard feat list in core is really poor, but the class itself is more than good enough to make up for that. Non-core bard is significantly better in most ways, but core bard is sweet.

[Troacctid]

I feel that the monk gets a worse rep than it deserves. Sure, the core version is garbage, but just as the bard becomes a force to reckon with with splat support (DFI, Song of the Heart, etc.), so too does the monk. Why, then do people acknowledge the Bard's full breadth of scope, but not the monk?

Core-only Bards are great. They have loads of sweet spells and fantastic skills. They're versatile as hell, and their power scales well into high levels. They just have crappy feat options is all.

Edit: Swordsaged.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

This sentiment surprises me here in GitP. I mean, sure, the monk has a horribad optimization floor, but as far as non-initiating martials go it has one of the higher ceilings. Using ACF's out the wazoo monks can be pretty bad@$$.

Using Invisible Fist, Wall Runner, and Darkmoon sub levels you get to be invisible about as often as a PF ninja, are nigh undetectable in low light (which you're going to ensure, right?), can move through walls (!), and you can run along walls Prince of Persia style.

Damage-wise, monks can outperform even most optimized martials: at lvl 20 (15 with a monk's belt, lower with another item I can't remember) using Improved Natural Attack, Ectoplasmic Fists, and Greater Mighty Wallop you swing for 12d8 per hit before strength or enhancements. Speaking of enhancements, only unarmed strike users gets to stack Greater Magic Fang, Ward Cestus, Amulet Of Natural Attacks, Amulet of Mighty Fists, & Bracers of Striking for up to +30 points of weapon enhancements. Add in the Decisive Strike ACF and the usual ubercharging methods and you have ghost-faced killer worthy of the name. Then there's Mantis Leap if you really like cheese. Even at level 10 with level appropriate buffs, you can expect to be competitive against a charging barbarian for damage output.

I feel that the monk gets a worse rep than it deserves. Sure, the core version is garbage, but just as the bard becomes a force to reckon with with splat support (DFI, Song of the Heart, etc.), so too does the monk. Why, then do people acknowledge the Bard's full breadth of scope, but not the monk?

THANK YOU. Finally someone else who understands just how awesome Monk can be.

[eggynack]

THANK YOU. Finally someone else who understands just how awesome Monk can be.
They have their moments, but those moments certainly aren't on the basis of reasonably sized AC bonuses.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

They have their moments, but those moments certainly aren't on the basis of reasonably sized AC bonuses.

Depends on what you're building them for.

[Vortenger]

Eggynack, Troacctid: No one denies the power of the core bard. What I meant was: most people know that the bard is better with splat support. That is common knowledge. They know which feats, ACF's and spells from outside sources add to the core class to make it shine even brighter. (Most who've been on this board have probably heard about Inspire Courage optimization)

The poor monk on the other hand only seems to be judged by its core components. Only, ever. There are feats, ACF's, and tricks out there that make the monk not only playable, but a downright beast in combat, and not too shabby for a martial outside of it. That is not common knowledge. (Most people on this board are unaware that a Darkmoon Monk gets Blink as a effectively persistent ability.)

Troacctid, you are one of the first people I have even seen mention some of the more usable ACF's available to the monk in a helpful light. Thanks for that. I just want to make people aware those options exist and the monk doesn't have to suck, as so many above opine.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Eggynack, Troacctid: No one denies the power of the core bard. What I meant was: most people know that the bard is better with splat support. That is common knowledge. They know which feats, ACF's and spells from outside sources add to the core class to make it shine even brighter. (Most who've been on this board have probably heard about Inspire Courage optimization)

The poor monk on the other hand only seems to be judged by its core components. Only, ever. There are feats, ACF's, and tricks out there that make the monk not only playable, but a downright beast in combat, and not too shabby for a martial outside of it. That is not common knowledge. (Most people on this board are unaware that a Darkmoon Monk gets Blink as a effectively persistent ability.)

Troacctid, you are one of the first people I have even seen mention some of the more usable ACF's available to the monk in a helpful light. Thanks for that. I just want to make people aware those options exist and the monk doesn't have to suck, as so many above opine.

EVERYTHING is better with splat support.

[eggynack]

The poor monk on the other hand only seems to be judged by its core components. Only, ever. There are feats, ACF's, and tricks out there that make the monk not only playable, but a downright beast in combat, and not too shabby for a martial outside of it. That is not common knowledge. (Most people on this board are unaware that a Darkmoon Monk gets Blink as a effectively persistent ability.)
The issue, I think, is that monk stuff tends to feel so external for some reason. Their big damage usually comes from spells and items, rather than from something intrinsic to the monk, and even the ACF'. s usually represent something separate from what is generally considered monkish. There's also a sublimation effect at work, where there's a massive hole between the low optimization side of the monk and the high optimization side. It's one of the major reasons why the truenamer is so often ill considered, despite their high end being somewhere around tier 4.

By contrast, bard optimization tends to be more gradual, and more connected to what makes a bard a bard. Dragonfire inspiration just feels like something a bard should be doing, and while sublime chord tends to be a bit outside context, at that point you're kinda building a sublime chord rather than a bard anyway. It's pretty much the opposite of objective reasoning, relying more on game feel than anything, but I think it explains some of the monk's bad rep. The class just feels bad, acting wonky even when hanging out at high levels of optimization.

[prufock]

I was reading through the Complete Psionic and ran aross something interesting - the Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor. +8 armor bonus, -6 skill check, 25% ASF. But, it doesn't count as armor. I know there's another version that counts as light armor but this is the version I'm going on. My question - It doesn't count as armor, so can a monk wear it?
...
I mean, this gives the possibility of making a nigh-unhittable monk.
It's cheap for a +8 armor bonus for sure, but it won't make you nigh-unhittable. It does make you a little less MAD though, by limiting your dex to +2.

You could reasonably afford this at level 4. With +2 dex and +4 wis, you'd have an AC of 24, 25 if small. A full BAB character, meanwhile, could have 4 + 4 strength + 1 magic weapon for a +9 total to hit (+10 if small). So a martial character is hitting on a 15 or higher, or 30% of the time. A similarly built medium BAB character would hit 25% of the time.

It's a good item for monks for the price (though the -6 check penalty still hurts), a little better than full plate on a fighter.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

It's cheap for a +8 armor bonus for sure, but it won't make you nigh-unhittable. It does make you a little less MAD though, by limiting your dex to +2.

You could reasonably afford this at level 4. With +2 dex and +4 wis, you'd have an AC of 24, 25 if small. A full BAB character, meanwhile, could have 4 + 4 strength + 1 magic weapon for a +9 total to hit (+10 if small). So a martial character is hitting on a 15 or higher, or 30% of the time. A similarly built medium BAB character would hit 25% of the time.

It's a good item for monks for the price (though the -6 check penalty still hurts), a little better than full plate on a fighter.

The only commonly-used skill used by monks, mostly, is Tumble, unless you're a stealth build.

And really I prefer to +Wis instead of Dex, because your Wis bonus to AC isn't limited by max Dex bonus restrictions.

And yeah, it won't make you unhittable all by itself for sure, but with the right other abilities, yes, it would. The usual Defending Gauntlets is one choice, as well as taking War Mind for the Str/Con boosts, full BAB, AC boosts, and even better, the Psychic Warrior powers. Just the first level PsyWar power Force Screen adds a +4 Sheild bonus to AC. With Dex, Wis, the Skin, the Gauntlets and the Force Screen you're gonna be hard to hit.

[Troacctid]

The only commonly-used skill used by monks, mostly, is Tumble, unless you're a stealth build.

And really I prefer to +Wis instead of Dex, because your Wis bonus to AC isn't limited by max Dex bonus restrictions.

And yeah, it won't make you unhittable all by itself for sure, but with the right other abilities, yes, it would. The usual Defending Gauntlets is one choice, as well as taking War Mind for the Str/Con boosts, full BAB, AC boosts, and even better, the Psychic Warrior powers. Just the first level PsyWar power Force Screen adds a +4 Sheild bonus to AC. With Dex, Wis, the Skin, the Gauntlets and the Force Screen you're gonna be hard to hit.

Force Screen is 1 min./level duration, which means you will typically have to spend an action to cast it in combat.

[Vortenger]

Eggy: Agreed to the entirety of the first paragraph, not on the second.

How is a monk who is insanely stealthy, able to slip past small physical barriers (Blink, no more than 5'), run along walls, or Muay-Thai a Balor down in a single iaijutsu-style charge less monk-like than a bard is bard-like for telling stories (oratory) so awesome his friends' swords and arrows all burst into solar flare-level flames? In a world where we discuss demiplanes, Ice Assassins, and the merits of each outsider we want to Bind... this assertion does not compute. The monk seems conceptually sound. Similarly, how does a monk doing hundreds of damage per charge or flurry feel wonky when compared to a Lion Totem Frenzied Berserker pouncing for similar hundreds? In high optimization, I can only think of a few non-initiating classes that would survive five minutes out the gate to any of the prevailing casters in the party/setting, and monk is indeed on that list.

Could you please elaborate about what makes it feel wonky or act badly to you?

[Rystil Xilvertr]

Force Screen is 1 min./level duration, which means you will typically have to spend an action to cast it in combat.

Yeah, which is reasonable. Another of the first items I would pick up would probably be a dorje of Force Screen, just to be able to use it without provoking AoO's. Not that the monk would be hit anyway but there's always those annoying natural 20's.

[eggynack]

Agreed to the entirety of the first paragraph, not on the second.

How is a monk who is insanely stealthy, able to slip past small physical barriers (Blink, no more than 5'), run along walls, or Muay-Thai a Balor down in a single iaijutsu-style charge less monk-like than a bard is bard-like for telling stories (oratory) so awesome his friends' swords and arrows all burst into solar flare-level flames? In a world where we discuss demiplanes, Ice Assassins, and the merits of each outsider we want to Bind... this assertion does not compute. The monk seems conceptually sound. Similarly, how does a monk doing hundreds of damage per charge or flurry feel wonky when compared to a Lion Totem Frenzied Berserker pouncing for similar hundreds? In high optimization, I can only think of a few non-initiating classes that would survive five minutes out the gate to any of the prevailing casters in the party/setting, and monk is indeed on that list.

Could you please elaborate about what makes it feel wonky or act badly to you?
Invisible fist and dark moon disciple aren't all that bad, though wild monk definitely is. High damage monkery tends to be weird, however, usually acts as I noted, working off of really specific items and spells, often used in ways which are rather unintuitive in their working. The barbarian, by contrast, can pull off all of its trickery in class, relying only on some feats and ACF's. So, yeah, I suppose I can agree on the ACF's to some extent, but the rest is kinda weird. Reading high damage monk stuff always feels weirdly cheesy, even if the output isn't that strong.

[Vortenger]

Fair enough. I can respect that.

[Rubik]

THANK YOU. Finally someone else who understands just how awesome Monk can be.I think you missed me in that. The post I linked to has a monk build I made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) that is ridiculously dangerous to anything not outright immune to damage and death, and is incredibly versatile, to boot.

Honestly, it'd be difficult to create a T3 more versatile and effective in more situations than that.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

I think you missed me in that. The post I linked to has a monk build I made (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863) that is ridiculously dangerous to anything not outright immune to damage and death, and is incredibly versatile, to boot.

Honestly, it'd be difficult to create a T3 more versatile and effective in more situations than that.

Well, I did read it, and it was okay, but by far not the kind of build I'm looking for. Thank you though, and yes, I did miss you there. Ppl keep posting while I'm replying XD

[Rubik]

Well, I did read it, and it was okay, but by far not the kind of build I'm looking for. Thank you though, and yes, I did miss you there. Ppl keep posting while I'm replying XDThere are other builds in that thread, as well, just so you know.

They're all designed to take down all the elder evils, and they're all different, aside from using a minimum of 85% monk. They're also somewhat compatible with each other, so feel free to use the parts of each build you like and discard the rest.

How about going after chaos monk 9 (with lots of ACFs)/war mind 10/anarchic initiate 1 with the Tashalatora feat, or something? It's not a bad build, honestly.

[Rystil Xilvertr]

There are other builds in that thread, as well, just so you know.

They're all designed to take down all the elder evils, and they're all different, aside from using a minimum of 85% monk. They're also somewhat compatible with each other, so feel free to use the parts of each build you like and discard the rest.

How about going after chaos monk 9 (with lots of ACFs)/war mind 10/anarchic initiate 1 with the Tashalatora feat, or something? It's not a bad build, honestly.

-Shrugs- I really wanted War Mind and perhaps Monk of the Long Death, along with the possibility of ShadowDancer, but yes. By Chaos Monk, I assume you mean changing all Lawful-oriented features/requirements of the core monk into Chaotic?

[Rubik]

-Shrugs- I really wanted War Mind and perhaps Monk of the Long Death, along with the possibility of ShadowDancer, but yes. By Chaos Monk, I assume you mean changing all Lawful-oriented features/requirements of the core monk into Chaotic?Chaos monk is a variant in Dragon #335, p88. Its alignment must be Chaotic. It trades a number of different class features for other class features, such as flurry of blows for flailing strike, which amounts to rolling 1dX+Y and getting that many attacks as a full round action. You take a small penalty to hit, just like with a flurry, but you actually average more attacks per round than with a regular flurry. Instead of stunning your opponent with Stunning Fist, you daze them on a charge Wis mod/day. Stuff like that.

The big thing about chaos monk is that you can multiclass with barbarian or bard, or PrC into chaotic classes, such as anarchic initiate. Things you normally wouldn't be able to, leading to more combinations than you'd otherwise get.

[Troacctid]

Cool. It's interesting and I may use that. I was also looking at the Monk of the Long Death from the Player's Guide to Faerun.

I missed this the first time, but Monk of the Long Death is redundant on that build (and just generally bad, really). You already have death attack as a Marrulurk racial ability, poison use does nothing (since a. you already have it and b. you're immune to poison anyway), macabre shroud doesn't really do anything, deathguard is pointless once you realize you're losing the good Fort save from the base class, and the 1/day abilities are lame.

I'd probably advance him past Monk 7 as an Assassin, and add on Sickening Strike and Terrifying Strike as additional ambush feats to capitalize on the additional sneak attacks. The spellcasting is good for him too, with some nice tricky things like mimicry, disguise self, snuff the light, flame shuriken, increase virulence, and alter self just in the 1st and 2nd level spell list.

[prufock]

Damage-wise, monks can outperform even most optimized martials: at lvl 20 (15 with a monk's belt, lower with another item I can't remember) using Improved Natural Attack, Ectoplasmic Fists, and Greater Mighty Wallop you swing for 12d8 per hit before strength or enhancements. Speaking of enhancements, only unarmed strike users gets to stack Greater Magic Fang, Ward Cestus, Amulet Of Natural Attacks, Amulet of Mighty Fists, & Bracers of Striking for up to +30 points of weapon enhancements. Add in the Decisive Strike ACF and the usual ubercharging methods and you have ghost-faced killer worthy of the name. Then there's Mantis Leap if you really like cheese. Even at level 10 with level appropriate buffs, you can expect to be competitive against a charging barbarian for damage output.
I'm not sure about your math here. GMW, the amulet, and the necklace all confer enhancement bonuses, so they wouldn't stack. The necklace and amulet also take up the same magic item slot, so they aren't usable together (unless you're doing custom items). You can pile special abilities on the cestus, necklace, and bracers. Best I can figure (pre-epic) is:
GMF +5 attack and damage
+1 Ward Cestus of (+9 special abilities)
+1 Necklace of Natural Attacks of (+9 special abilities)
+1 Bracers of Striking of (+9 special abilities)

So you'd have +5 attack and damage, plus 3 items worth of special abilities, up to +18 worth of special abilities. You're spending a great deal of wealth on it, though, considering the bracers cost double. WBL for level 20 is 760K, and the above costs 800K in enhancements and special abilities, not including the base prices of the items. And that's assuming a friendly party mage is casting GMF for free. Having 3 items that can be enchanted with special abilities all applying to one attack is still GOOD, since it would be cheaper to do it that way instead of piling them all on one single weapon, but not practical at this extreme.

[Troacctid]

Also since Monks have access to neither Greater Mighty Wallop nor Greater Magic Fang, it's rather disingenuous to include it as a point in their favor.

[Rubik]

Also since Monks have access to neither Greater Mighty Wallop nor Greater Magic Fang, it's rather disingenuous to include it as a point in their favor.They're in an odd place where they can use such things like no other class can, however, especially since their unarmed strikes count as both natural weapons AND manufactured ones, so they can stack effects like nobody's business.

[Troacctid]

By the time they can do that, you're at a level where it really doesn't matter. It's kind of like saying how Monks have access to the only 2d10 weapon in the game. Yeah, sure, but at level 20, who cares? Before then you don't even outdamage a greatsword.

[Vortenger]

I'm not sure about your math here. GMW, the amulet, and the necklace all confer enhancement bonuses, so they wouldn't stack. The necklace and amulet also take up the same magic item slot, so they aren't usable together (unless you're doing custom items). You can pile special abilities on the cestus, necklace, and bracers. Best I can figure (pre-epic) is:
GMF +5 attack and damage
+1 Ward Cestus of (+9 special abilities)
+1 Necklace of Natural Attacks of (+9 special abilities)
+1 Bracers of Striking of (+9 special abilities)

So you'd have +5 attack and damage, plus 3 items worth of special abilities, up to +18 worth of special abilities. You're spending a great deal of wealth on it, though, considering the bracers cost double. WBL for level 20 is 760K, and the above costs 800K in enhancements and special abilities, not including the base prices of the items. And that's assuming a friendly party mage is casting GMF for free. Having 3 items that can be enchanted with special abilities all applying to one attack is still GOOD, since it would be cheaper to do it that way instead of piling them all on one single weapon, but not practical at this extreme.

In PF, the Amulet of Mighty fists can have WSA's as a weapon up to a total of +5 and doesn't require a +1 enhancement to do so. Sorry about that, I'm used to 3.P these days. Scratch that, I suppose. The MIC has very clear rules to allow two or more enchantments to coexist in a magic item in the same slot, albeit at a steep premium. It's expensive, but it can be done. It does indeed require friendly casters and probably a party member crafting wondrous items for the group, but you're not playing in a vacuum. Some team cooperation is likely. If the character is a tool for the DM, all the easier. Getting to those really high numbers of WSA's would be very expensive long term, but the early enchantments are actually much cheaper by spreading them around. Place Holy on you cestus and Collision on your necklace and it comes out significantly cheaper than having stacked them both on the cestus. This still allows a growing unarmed striker to have WSA's above WBL before worrying about hundreds of thousands of gold.

Your above example accounts for +27 worth of special abilities, not 18... and with the +5 enhancement to attack and damage, you gave us +32 active bonus overall with an additional +3 wasted for prereqs.

@Troacctid: Since monks gain more use out of Greater Mighty Wallop than any other class, and since we are talking about a group based game, I think it would be a disservice to discount it.

[Troacctid]

@Troacctid: Since monks gain more use out of Greater Mighty Wallop than any other class, and since we are talking about a group based game, I think it would be a disservice to discount it.

Any schmuck with a maul gets the same boost from greater mighty wallop as an 11th-level monk, except with x3 crit, x1.5 Str, and double Power Attack damage. Even if you stack Improved Natural Attack on top of it, you're getting maybe an extra d8 or two, which just about makes up for the lack of Power Attack compared to a full BAB class...whoop-de-doo.

[Vortenger]

At level 11, the monk still has access to at least two size increases over and above the maul user, moving them to 6d8 per swing compared to the maul's expected 3d8 (assuming a similar CL 11 for GMWallop). That ought to about cover for the extra returns on PA and strength, and remember that the monk has extra WSA's due to splitting them across various items by this point which should close any remaining gap and probably come out ahead. The disparity in gains from size increases only further compounds as levels increase. The monk is still gaining more from the spell than his contemporary, even if all that does is put him on par with his bludgeon-loving buddy. Not just any schmuck gains the same, friend.

As to the whoop-de-doo part, not everyone wants to swing a giant hammer, or a giant sword, or a giant chain, or a giant spear, or other similarly large weapon The fact that unarmed strikes can be made to rival what a Two-handed-fighter can do, even at great expense, is notable. Doubly so if it helps to redeem a class very few think can be saved. I guess that's a bit of the sentiment I was referring to in my first post: ennui regarding the monk saddens me with how much richer the class can be with a bit of mastery. A tashalatora can swing for 24d8 base damage per punch, among it's other abilities (That's the best I've come up with. SorO_Lost over at MinMax has a handbook indicating the numbers can go much higher, but I'm not seeing how). I think that's something a person who likes melee could aspire to.

Not much of this digression really helps the OP. Maybe we should move this elsewhere if you wish to continue.

[prufock]

Your above example accounts for +27 worth of special abilities, not 18... and with the +5 enhancement to attack and damage, you gave us +32 active bonus overall with an additional +3 wasted for prereqs.
Yeah, sorry, it should be 27 plus the 5 enhancements. But again, keep in mind this is costing the same as four +10 weapons, which is a steep hunk of change. More if you're adding the custom dual-purpose items. Not saying it can't be done, just that you are investing heavily into it at the expense of other things.