Can a necromancer raise a construct?

[Kimras]

I have not seen anything saying they can't. I would like to know if I'm wrong.

[OldTrees1]

Targets: One or more corpses touched


Skeletons
A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.

Zombies
A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.

Constructs are not corpses.

[Xsatra]

Construct Type
A construct is an animated object or artificially constructed creature.

[...]

•Since it was never alive, a construct cannot be raised or resurrected.



Subtypes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm)

There you go.

[Telok]

Constructs are not corpses.

Living constructs? Living creatures leave corpses and constructs leave... bits? So does a living construct leave a corpse or raw materials?

[OldTrees1]

Living constructs? Living creatures leave corpses and constructs leave... bits? So does a living construct leave a corpse or raw materials?

Living Constructs(in contrast to Constructs) are an interesting question. All signs point to yes. Living constructs are alive and can become dead(0 Con not Con -) so they count as corpses as per the Animate Dead spell. I am not sure if their anatomy counts enough to qualify to be zombies, but the metal skeleton of a dead warforged would probably count for animation as a skeleton.

[Psyren]

Warforged have neither "bones" nor "a true anatomy," thus animate dead will do nothing to them even if they do leave a corpse.

[OldTrees1]

Warforged have neither "bones" nor "a true anatomy," thus animate dead will do nothing to them even if they do leave a corpse.

Ooh! There are anatomy pages/paragraphs on Warforged that describe the internals? Where? Or were you merely stating your own headcanon for reference?

[SiuiS]

Ooh! There are anatomy pages/paragraphs on Warforged that describe the internals? Where? Or were you merely stating your own headcanon for reference?

Neither (and outside of fictional work, canon isn't really the right term). True anatomy requires metabolism, constitution, aging. They aren't not constructs, somehow. Reverse the question; what true anatomy do war forged possess?

They can be the target of create undead, it seems, but not animate. Interesting.

[OldTrees1]

Neither (and outside of fictional work, canon isn't really the right term). True anatomy requires metabolism, constitution, aging. They aren't not constructs, somehow. Reverse the question; what true anatomy do war forged possess?

They can be the target of create undead, it seems, but not animate. Interesting.

I was asking about evidence for/against metal bones. As you can see in a previous post of mine in this thread, I do not think dead Warforged qualify for Zombies.

[Crake]

I was asking about evidence for/against metal bones. As you can see in a previous post of mine in this thread, I do not think dead Warforged qualify for Zombies.

metal in the shape of bones, and for the purpose of mimicing the function of bones, are still not bones.

[Milo v3]

I had Warforged who took Tomb Tainted Soul as their first feat be made from bones and undead organs so that I could have warforged skeletons and zombies. Obviously wouldn't work in a default game though.

[OldTrees1]

metal in the shape of bones, and for the purpose of mimicing the function of bones, are still not bones.

That depends on your definition of bones. If your definition requires them to be made primarily of calcium then metallic bones are not bones. However if you do not require them to be primarily made out of calcium then it is not so cut and dry is it? Personally my study of biology has caused me to loosen some of my assumptions about life. So I believe we will simply disagree.

[Spore]

Weird question but where's the line between Flesh Golem and Zombie? I know it's defined by types and subtypes. But where would you draw the line?

[Milo v3]

Weird question but where's the line between Flesh Golem and Zombie? I know it's defined by types and subtypes. But where would you draw the line?

Flesh Golems are basically objects you've spent time crafting and enchanting with multiple spells over the course of days until it eventually moves around... thar just happen to have been made from people parts. While a zombie is a single persons corpse that you've quickly filled with necromantic energy to get it to move around.

[Spore]

That's nice and all but where do you draw the line? If you take a single corpse and enhance it with machine parts that is.

[Crake]

That's nice and all but where do you draw the line? If you take a single corpse and enhance it with machine parts that is.

I'd say when you're casting anything more than animate dead, and spending more than the material component of the animate dead spell. Also when it gets spell immunity.

[Chronos]

What's all this about bones? Animate Dead doesn't require bones. It just requires a skeletal system, but says nothing about what that skeletal system is made out of. A giant spider (with a chitinous exoskeleton) is just fine, as is a warforged (with a wood and metal support structure).


Quoth SiuiS:

True anatomy requires metabolism, constitution, aging. They aren't not constructs, somehow. Reverse the question; what true anatomy do war forged possess?
Warforged have all of those. They're capable of drinking and benefiting from potions, so they must have some sort of metabolism. They have a constitution score. And after about 50 years, their mental ability scores increase and their physicals decrease. They also have distinct body parts made out of a variety of materials, unlike oozes and elementals (the D&D creatures which explicitly lack true anatomy).

[Milo v3]

That's nice and all but where do you draw the line? If you take a single corpse and enhance it with machine parts that is.

That was were I drew the line. One was just animated, the other was crafted. A corpse enhanced with machine parts doesn't sound like a zombie or a golem, sounds more like a cyborg or robot if the machine parts don't make it "technically" back to life.

[Necroticplague]

That was were I drew the line. One was just animated, the other was crafted. A corpse enhanced with machine parts doesn't sound like a zombie or a golem, sounds more like a cyborg or robot if the machine parts don't make it "technically" back to life.

Honestly, the proposed creature, assuming its the machine parts pulling their weight (and not just magic), sounds more like it would be something neither golem nor undead. It would be a construct, but not a golem.

Of course, one could also make a case for it coming back as a half-golem zombie, depending on the exact nature of the machine parts.

[BowStreetRunner]

FWIW, the rules for living constructs do state that they are subject to necromancy effects.

[Vinyl Scratch]

Undead are powered by raw negative energy, while golems tend to use elemental spirits to power/control them.

[Psyren]

Ooh! There are anatomy pages/paragraphs on Warforged that describe the internals? Where? Or were you merely stating your own headcanon for reference?

Ah, "the rules don't say they don't have bones!" Nice try.

[Telok]

Ah, "the rules don't say they don't have bones!" Nice try.

Do the rules say what does have bones? Because if you go that way then you're looking at only ever having skellies of things that have a skeletal structure that is mentioned in the rules.

The warforged question is interesting. They share the game stats of living creatures (con score, crittable, aging, raise dead) but their construct type says no. On the gripping hand subtypes override types through the specific/general rule and warforged are living creatures with a defined anatomy.

Plus, flesh golems do have skeletons. As a bonus they are explicitly made of humanoid corpse/s.

[OldTrees1]

Ah, "the rules don't say they don't have bones!" Nice try.

No that was a:

"The rules as I know them do not specify and leave it up to the DM. I encountered Psyren talking as if the lack of bones was a matter of fact. Noticing my confusion, I honestly and excitedly asked if Psyren had evidence or was just stating a personal theory. Psyren's reply implied that it was just a personal theory and not backed by evidence. Thus we fall back to it not being specified and thus up to the DM. With the added information that if Psyren was the DM the answer would be no just like if I were the DM the answer would be yes for skeletons but no for zombies."

I hope that is clear.

[Psyren]

Plus, flesh golems do have skeletons. As a bonus they are explicitly made of humanoid corpse/s.

And Warforged are not, so that settles that.


No that was a:

"The rules as I know them do not specify and leave it up to the DM. I encountered Psyren talking as if the lack of bones was a matter of fact. Noticing my confusion, I honestly and excitedly asked if Psyren had evidence or was just stating a personal theory. Psyren's reply implied that it was just a personal theory and not backed by evidence. Thus we fall back to it not being specified and thus up to the DM. With the added information that if Psyren was the DM the answer would be no just like if I were the DM the answer would be yes for skeletons but no for zombies."

I hope that is clear.

Dragonshards pt. one (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050627a) by Keith Baker:

"The warforged are made using a blend of materials. The core of a warforged is a frame formed from wood, stone, or metal. Bundles of rootlike fibers surround the core and serve as the muscles of the construct. Plates of steel and wood are fused over this layer of tendrils, forming the hard outer shell of the warforged. The precise appearance and construction of the body depends on the model of the warforged, as represented by its initial feats. This also affects the weight of the warforged, as shown below."

Nothing about bones.

I hope that is clear.

[OldTrees1]

And Warforged are not, so that settles that.



Dragonshards pt. one (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050627a) by Keith Baker:

"The warforged are made using a blend of materials. The core of a warforged is a frame formed from wood, stone, or metal. Bundles of rootlike fibers surround the core and serve as the muscles of the construct. Plates of steel and wood are fused over this layer of tendrils, forming the hard outer shell of the warforged. The precise appearance and construction of the body depends on the model of the warforged, as represented by its initial feats. This also affects the weight of the warforged, as shown below."

Nothing about bones.

I hope that is clear.

Thank you for the quote!

Huh. A frame overlaid with muscles overlaid with plates. A frame does sound more like rods connected by hinges rather than disconnected rods meeting at joints. However I see it as open to DM interpretation.

[SiuiS]

Weird question but where's the line between Flesh Golem and Zombie? I know it's defined by types and subtypes. But where would you draw the line?

Science and magic, I suppose.



Warforged have all of those. They're capable of drinking and benefiting from potions, so they must have some sort of metabolism. They have a constitution score. And after about 50 years, their mental ability scores increase and their physicals decrease. They also have distinct body parts made out of a variety of materials, unlike oozes and elementals (the D&D creatures which explicitly lack true anatomy).

Oh. Well then. If they even age, then sure, zombify and skeltize to heart's content.

[Psyren]

Degrading physically with age doesn't mean you have anatomy though. Even buildings and bottles do that. Not to mention Warforged simply stop at a certain point.

The ability to benefit from potions comes from the living wood used in their construction, which can absorb liquid (including spells in liquid form.) Living wood does not mean you have an anatomy, otherwise we could zombify trees.

[Thurbane]

Ooh! There are anatomy pages/paragraphs on Warforged that describe the internals? Where? Or were you merely stating your own headcanon for reference?

Which splatbook has the Warforged Head Cannon graft? Is it similar to the Maug Stone Spitter?

[sideswipe]

Neither (and outside of fictional work, canon isn't really the right term). True anatomy requires metabolism, constitution, aging. They aren't not constructs, somehow. Reverse the question; what true anatomy do war forged possess?

They can be the target of create undead, it seems, but not animate. Interesting.

i understand where you are coming from, but all a creature needs is a con score and a wisdom and charisma score to be considered alive as a creature and leave an animate-able corpse. so i would totally let someone raise a warforged. or a living construct. but i would not allow them to start with them unless they paid some sort of cost. they are rare.

[Chronos]

Quoth Psyren:

Nothing about bones.
Again, who said anything about bones? All that we need is a skeletal system, which is exactly what's described in the second sentence of your quote.

[Psyren]

Again, who said anything about bones? All that we need is a skeletal system, which is exactly what's described in the second sentence of your quote.

The PHB did, that's who. Animate Dead:

"A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones."

[Chronos]

Oh, I was assuming we were trying to make zombies, not skeletons. They don't have that line.

[Milo v3]

The corpse must have bones.

Never liked that line, ruins so many cool vermin skeletons.

[Telok]

""Plus, flesh golems do have skeletons. As a bonus they are explicitly made of humanoid corpse/s.""

And Warforged are not, so that settles that.

Yes, and?
I completely agree that warforged are not made out of the corpses of humanoids. I fail to see any connection between warforged and golems aside from the [construct] tag. Flesh golems, being of fleshy post-life body parts and having a skeletal structure, seem quite appropriate for animation once you've beaten them from [construct] to inanimate flesh. Actually, I can't find anything saying that a destroyed construct doesn't leave a corpse. You know, the term "true anatomy" in undefined in RAW and thus left to the DM to decide. Further the Animate Dead spell states only that the target must be a corpse with bones or a "true anatomy". I can't even find references to the target ever needing to be alive.

I think this is down to DM choice. You need to choose for your game what a skeleton is (sharks, arachnids, flesh golems, bone golems, warforged frames), what "true anatomy" is (subject to crits, fortification, con score, biology, solid body with defined shape), and what leaves a corpse when killed (elementals, constructs, abberations, plants).

Me? I'm starting to wonder if I can create zombie trees.

Edit:
Never liked that line, ruins so many cool vermin skeletons.
Well it actually says "A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeleton)."

[Milo v3]

Me? I'm starting to wonder if I can create zombie trees.

Since trees lack a constitution score even when awakened they were never technically alive, so I don't think it'd work. Other true plant creatures on the other hand... should be able to be vampire and zombie plants.

[Psyren]

I fail to see any connection between warforged and golems aside from the [construct] tag.

Neither do I, so... we agree then? :smallconfused:



Me? I'm starting to wonder if I can create zombie trees.

You can animate them, either with Liveoak or Animate Objects, but that's probably it.

[SiuiS]

Degrading physically with age doesn't mean you have anatomy though. Even buildings and bottles do that. Not to mention Warforged simply stop at a certain point.

Not in D&D. Aging has specific meaning; progression of a living thing toward death via time, and the accompanyig changes to attributes.


The ability to benefit from potions comes from the living wood used in their construction, which can absorb liquid (including spells in liquid form.) Living wood does not mean you have an anatomy, otherwise we could zombify trees.


Since trees lack a constitution score even when awakened they were never technically alive, so I don't think it'd work. Other true plant creatures on the other hand... should be able to be vampire and zombie plants.

Treants? Anybody? Nobody? Okay then.

[Milo v3]

Treants? Anybody? Nobody? Okay then.

Those would be the "other true plant creatures" I mentioned.

[Psyren]

Not in D&D. Aging has specific meaning; progression of a living thing toward death via time, and the accompanyig changes to attributes.

Which warforged still stop doing. And again, there is no connection between that definition and anatomy. (Or were you thinking metabolism?)

[Telok]

Well here's part of the question, if a tree isn't "D&D alive" because it lacks a Con score (I presume this is only because nobody officially statted a regular old boring tree) then warforged are alive because they have a Con score which means that you can zombify them after you make them into a corpse. If it isn't the Con score then what criteria are being used to satisfy this requirement?

This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands...
Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.

Although it does occur to me that the material component clause of putting the onyx in the eye sockets and mouth might be problematic for a few minutes. But we have cocaine wizards, giving a tree eyes and a mouth is easy to solve. However I do think that it would prevent animating things that lack eyes or mouths. So no grimlock skeletons or mimic zombies, but wight skeletons and treant zombies look legit.

On a second look regular trees won't work because they aren't creatures. But wait, if we animate the tree and then kill it while it is animated then we have the corpse of a creature because animated stuff is totally creatures. Cocaine wizards for the win.

[Milo v3]

On a second look regular trees won't work because they aren't creatures. But wait, if we animate the tree and then kill it while it is animated then we have the corpse of a creature because animated stuff is totally creatures. Cocaine wizards for the win.

Animated trees (including awakened trees annoyingly) lack constitution scores, and thus aren't living creatures.

[Telok]

Animated trees (including awakened trees annoyingly) lack constitution scores, and thus aren't living creatures.

Living isn't a requirement.

Animate Dead says nothing about living creatures. Bones, bodies, dead creatures, and corpses are referenced for animation. In D&D you can create bodies and corpses from magic without living creatures being involved. For example a slain Inevitable will leave a body and a wizard can use Polymorph Any Object to create bones or corpses.

[Psyren]

Well obviously if you PAO a Warforged into something else you can probably animate that. PAO is funny that way.

[Coidzor]

Huh. I'm surprised that no one brought up the fluff tidbits about Woeforged yet.

There's no statblocks for 'em or explicit RAW, but the conceptual space has been put out there.

[OldTrees1]

Living isn't a requirement.

Animate Dead says nothing about living creatures. Bones, bodies, dead creatures, and corpses are referenced for animation. In D&D you can create bodies and corpses from magic without living creatures being involved. For example a slain Inevitable will leave a body and a wizard can use Polymorph Any Object to create bones or corpses.

Animate Dead requires the body to be dead which in turn requires a Con of 0 rather than Con -.

[atemu1234]

Me? I'm starting to wonder if I can create zombie trees.

Tha trees be attackin'!

[Telok]

Animate Dead requires the body to be dead which in turn requires a Con of 0 rather than Con -.

Where does it say that? I can't find it in the spell or the glossary. And anyways once something is dead it's a corpse, which is an object, which has no Con score. I can see where having a Con of zero kills living critters but I can't find where it says that being dead sets a critter's Con to zero.

[OldTrees1]

Where does it say that? I can't find it in the spell or the glossary. And anyways once something is dead it's a corpse, which is an object, which has no Con score. I can see where having a Con of zero kills living critters but I can't find where it says that being dead sets a critter's Con to zero.


Dead (-10 Hit Points or Lower)
When your character’s current hit points drop to -10 or lower, or if he takes massive damage (see above), he’s dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces his Constitution to 0.


3 ways to become dead, have negative hp(requires Con), fail a save vs a death effect(requires Con), or have your Con reduced to 0(requires Con).

[Chronos]

Con 0 implies dead, but I don't think dead implies Con 0.

[OldTrees1]

Con 0 implies dead, but I don't think dead implies Con 0.

Yeah, I was wrong about that. But all 3 ways of qualifying as "dead" require Con.

[(Un)Inspired]

The PHB did, that's who. Animate Dead:

"A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones."

Are bones an in-game defined term? I can't find it.

If it's not, we need to default to RL right?

Google turned up this definition for bones:


bone
bōn/
noun
plural noun: bones
1.
any of the pieces of hard, whitish tissue making up the skeleton in humans and other vertebrates.
"his injuries included many broken bones"
synonyms: bony process, cartilage, ossein
"don't give the dog that chicken bone"
a person's body.
plural noun: one's bones
"he hauled his tired bones upright"
a corpse or skeleton.
"the diggers turned up the bones of a fifteen-year-old girl"
a bone of an animal with meat on it, used as food for people or dogs.
"stewed in stock made with a ham bone"
2.
the calcified material of which bones consist.
"an earring of bone"
a substance similar to bone such as ivory, dentin, or whalebone.
a thing made of, or once made of, such a substance, for example a pair of dice.
the whitish color of bone.
"the sandals she had dyed bone to match the small purse"
3.
the basic or essential framework of something.
"you need to put some flesh on the bones of your idea"
4.
vulgar slang
a penis.

Would you stand by that definition?

[Thurbane]

I suspect this is one of those debates where both sides will present evidence for their interpretation of the rules, discussion will carry on for several pages, and most will walk away with the exact same POV as they went in with. :smalltongue:

[(Un)Inspired]

I suspect this is one of those debates where both sides will present evidence for their interpretation of the rules, discussion will carry on for several pages, and most will walk away with the exact same POV as they went in with. :smalltongue:

I'm in luck then as I believe I'm currently without certainty in any POV. This thread may save me.

[Chronos]

For what it's worth, I think that Warforged can definitely be zombified, but lean towards no on skeletonizing them.

[OldTrees1]

For what it's worth, I think that Warforged can definitely be zombified, but lean towards no on skeletonizing them.

Blackout!
Now we have all 4 positions stated in this thread (Yes to both, No to both, Skeleton only, Zombie only).
[/thread]

[Telok]

3 ways to become dead, have negative hp(requires Con), fail a save vs a death effect(requires Con), or have your Con reduced to 0(requires Con).

Well there are will save SoD spells and no-save SoD spells which indicates that those are only some of the ways to become dead. The psychic power Recall Death does not require a living creature and uses a will save. Energy drain can kill without Fort saves, negative hp, or death effects. Being immune to death effects and energy drain is a general effect of lacking a Con score and such effects don't normally affect things without Con scores. The spells Wish and Miracle can get around that, possibly some other spell or ability can too. I certainly don't have encyclopedic knowledge of all the spells and Prc/monster abilities.

From what I can see in the Animate Dead spell it requires the body of a creature that's dead. There is no requirement for the creature to have previously been alive or possess a Con score. Dead creatures were normally alive but I can't find a requirement for it.

Trees occupy this weird space between D&D alive/dead and object/creature. By the rules if they are objects they lack a Con score and are immune to aging, sickness, disease, and death (objects without hp are ruined or destroyed). If they are alive then they have Con scores but haven't been statted up as creatures. Interestingly the spell Liveoak animates a tree as a Treant and a Treant's Animate Trees ability emulates the Liveoak spell. Treants are creatures with Con scores, which implies that trees have Con scores. The other mention of trees that I found is in the Wilderness section under Forest Terrain which stats trees wit AC, hp, hardness, and climb checks, but it is silent on the object/creature issue and the possession or lack of a Con score.

However I do have my zombie trees. Liveoak makes them a living creature duplicating a Treant which has a Con score, eyes, and a mouth. Corpse it and then animate it. Although I did see something odd about the duration and target of the spell... That's for a different thread anyways.

[Milo v3]

Treants are creatures with Con scores, which implies that trees have Con scores.

I disagree, because if you awaken a tree using the awaken spell it lacks a constitution score, and thats specifically a tree that you just turned into a creature, rather than a tree you turned into a treant.

[Chronos]

Quoth OldTrees1:

Blackout!
Now we have all 4 positions stated in this thread (Yes to both, No to both, Skeleton only, Zombie only).
[/thread]
Wait, who's arguing skeleton only? I missed that one.

[OldTrees1]

Wait, who's arguing skeleton only? I missed that one.

I believe Warforged have more skeleton* than true anatomy. Although it is easy to miss since I have not been trying to convert others to my position.

*Using a looser definition of bones that would eventually become necessary as synthetic biology develops further as a science.

[LordErebus12]

Three questions id ask if I were the dm after reading outloud the rules and fluff on animate dead, warforged, and living constructs. I will establish to all that the creators could not consider every scenario with every game, so we will have to keep that in mind. I will state that Warforged and other living constructs are as close to living beings as possible, while still being alien.

1. Does the concept make sense? (Outloud to all)
2. Are you attempting cheese? (directed towards the person who wanted to do it)
3. Can I live with this monster we've created/allowed? (towards myself, but outloud)

To me personally I see no reason why this cannot work if discussed and 'fleshed out' as a group. Initially it makes some sense to me, but I like the players input on it, too.

Assuming cheese is not the goal, Id think about the concept of a warforged skeleton or zombie. It sounds unusual, but is quite unique. Something that is sorely lacking with most games that use RAW exclusively. Id then think about whether or not I really care that much about the rules as written anyway, since they are just guidelines to give this game the semblance of realism, while allowing unrealistic things to flourish.

In the end, id probably allow it if cheese was not the goal. It could only make the players happier and game more interesting. Plus it gives me a 'new toy' to use against the players. :biggrin:

The game is a game, and we must keep that in mind and have fun. If we need to argue and bicker over the rules with every turn, you end up with a lot of headaches, broken friendships, and not a lot of gameplay and roleplay.

[goto124]

But what if I want cheeze zombies?

[Grek]

A construct possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, and necromancy effects.

Typically, necromancers cannot raise constructs because spells of the necromancy school do not work on constructs. Living constructs (such as warforged) are an exception in that they are not immune the necromancy. Animate Dead specifies that it targets "One or more corpses touched"; the corpse of a warforged qualifies as a valid target for the spell. If the issue of a what warforged skeleton looks like troubles you, consult the “Playing Warforged” article in Dragon Magazine #364, which gives a detailed account of the internal anatomy of the warforged. Create Undead (and the Greater version) target "One corpse" and also function when cast on a dead warforged. Likewise, most (but not all) spawn undead can convert warforged: Bodak, Mohrg, Shadows, Spectres, Wraiths and Wights can all convert Warforged. Ghouls and Vampires cannot.

Reincarnation, Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurrection are not necromancy spells and not relevant to the conversation. All of them, incidentally, work on warforged but not on other constructs.

[atemu1234]

I'd allow the warforged zombies/skeletons. Semantics aside, they're not game-breaking and quite frankly interesting.

[LordErebus12]

But what if I want cheeze zombies?

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs32/f/2008/197/0/3/Cheese_Zombies_by_Shasiel.jpg

This is how you get ants...

[JDL]

Sorry to ruin the fun of everyone here, but by RAW Warforged can't become undead.


From Races of Eberron, page 16:

"The Treaty of Thronehold gave warforged their freedom, but only after great debate. House Cannith and Thrane argued ardently that warforged were not living creatures because they do not possess souls. Their evidence for this was that warforged cannot become undead by any known method, not even ghosts or shadows."

[OldTrees1]

Sorry to ruin the fun of everyone here, but by RAW Warforged can't become undead.


From Races of Eberron, page 16:

"The Treaty of Thronehold gave warforged their freedom, but only after great debate. House Cannith and Thrane argued ardently that warforged were not living creatures because they do not possess souls. Their evidence for this was that warforged cannot become undead by any known method, not even ghosts or shadows."

Neat, strong evidence.
Although I am not sure I would trust House Cannith about their robot servants being soulless. Too much inventive for them to lie.

[LordErebus12]

Neat, strong evidence.
Although I am not sure I would trust House Cannith about their robot servants being soulless. Too much inventive for them to lie.

Imagine the first one to learn that they have developed souls. Sounds pretty epic.

[ShurikVch]

Awfully open-ended RAW for Shrouds of the Unholy (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) allow, in theory, to make any kind of undead out of any corpse



From Races of Eberron, page 16:

"... House Cannith and Thrane argued ardently that warforged were not living creatures because they do not possess souls..." Glossary:
Living Construct Subtype:
...
—Can be raised or resurrected. You can't be ressed unless you have a soul


Imagine the first one to learn that they have developed souls. Sounds pretty epic. http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/238/b/8/Getting_Along_by_kikaimegami.jpg
And they even have their one Harbinger!
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs48/f/2009/212/7/6/7667eb426ad9971c1a42d5888589cbae.jpg

[Psyren]

"Able to be Raised = Yes" and "Able to be Undead = No" do not have to be mutually exclusive properties. Warforged are just weird like that.

[JDL]

Awfully open-ended RAW for Shrouds of the Unholy (https://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) allow, in theory, to make any kind of undead out of any corpse

Glossary: You can't be ressed unless you have a soul

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/238/b/8/Getting_Along_by_kikaimegami.jpg
And they even have their one Harbinger!
http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs48/f/2009/212/7/6/7667eb426ad9971c1a42d5888589cbae.jpg

Try reading the source next time. Specifically, the same paragraph:


From Races of Eberron, page 16:

Breland argued that because warforged can be raised and resurrected, they must have souls. Of course, House Cannith and Thrane countered that no warforged brought back from death told tales of any kind of afterlife.

[OldTrees1]

Try reading the source next time. Specifically, the same paragraph:


From Races of Eberron, page 16:

Breland argued that because warforged can be raised and resurrected, they must have souls. Of course, House Cannith and Thrane countered that no warforged brought back from death told tales of any kind of afterlife.

O.O The dead warforged are recruited into a conspiracy against House Cannith and Thrane. Any resurrected warforged will not betray the conspiracy to House Cannith or Thrane. They are planning to exterminate their oppressors!

[georgie_leech]

O.O The dead warforged are recruited into a conspiracy against House Cannith and Thrane. Any resurrected warforged will not betray the conspiracy to House Cannith or Thrane. They are planning to exterminate their oppressors!

Now, this is in sarcasm blue, but that sounds like a pretty awesome campaign actually...

[Abithrios]

I think the pathfinder version of skeleton is less picky. I am pretty sure you can apply the template to any creature with a skeleton, such as a flesh golem.

[OldTrees1]

Now, this is in sarcasm blue, but that sounds like a pretty awesome campaign actually...

Yeah. I think I will include the Warforged conspiracy in my campaign settings from now on.

[Telok]

Typically, necromancers cannot raise constructs because spells of the necromancy school do not work on constructs. Living constructs (such as warforged) are an exception

That's a good catch, but while necromancy definitely doesn't work on construct creatures does that carry over to the corpse of a construct? Do type traits carry over to corpses?

The stuff from the RoE is fluff isn't it? Background info instead of rules text? People in the setting arguing about in character philosophy isn't normally presented as game rules. That would call back to the debates over fluff text being rules or description. I don't have that book so I can't tell what the context of the quote is.

A quick search compiled a list of necromancy effects that constructs are immune to, that you might not normally assume them to be immune to.
Sword of Darkness, Spiritwall, Bestow Curse, Skull Watch, Speak with Dead, Deathwatch, Handfang, Lifebolt, False Life, Backbiter, Spectral Hand, Ray of Enfeeblement (it's a penalty not damage or drain), Astral Projection, Mark of Justice, Blood of the Marytr, Deathward (not all negative energy is necromancy)

[SiuiS]

Which warforged still stop doing. And again, there is no connection between that definition and anatomy. (Or were you thinking metabolism?)

Warforged don't age?

I was referencing your comment about buildings and objects aging, only. They don't in D&D. Rust monsters exist because it doesn't occur naturally.


Well obviously if you PAO a Warforged into something else you can probably animate that. PAO is funny that way.

What happens when PAO runs out? Does the skeleton become an undead war forged?


Where does it say that? I can't find it in the spell or the glossary. And anyways once something is dead it's a corpse, which is an object, which has no Con score. I can see where having a Con of zero kills living critters but I can't find where it says that being dead sets a critter's Con to zero.

A body is an object that was once a (now slain) creature. The spell refers to dead bodies. This is why the bones of a house don't count, because the house was never a creature, and an animated house may be a creature but does not leave a dead body becauE constructs are not killed but destroyed when reduced to low enough Hp.


Are bones an in-game defined term? I can't find it.

If it's not, we need to default to RL right?

Google turned up this definition for bones:



Would you stand by that definition?

Not all of that definition. See the house thing above.

[Psyren]

Warforged don't age?

They stop aging, which is what I said. They have no maximum, like Elans.



What happens when PAO runs out? Does the skeleton become an undead war forged?

Presumably the other spell would fall off, unless you PAO'd in such a way as to make it permanent.

[Telok]

A body is an object that was once a (now slain) creature. The spell refers to dead bodies. This is why the bones of a house don't count, because the house was never a creature, and an animated house may be a creature but does not leave a dead body becauE constructs are not killed but destroyed when reduced to low enough Hp.

Are we sure constructs can't leave corpses? If a destroyed construct or object doesn't leave any corpse or body then what does it leave? If it's leaving bits, chunks, and debris then that implies total destruction at 0 hp. If this is the case then by the rules you can never cut down a tree, it's whole untill it reaches 0 hp and then it's toothpicks. Does being destroyed preclude leaving a body or corpse?

And this is interesting then, Liveoak turns a huge tree into a treant with 66 hp. But a tree has anywhere from 150 hp to 600 hp. A treant is a plant creature and a tree is an object. What happens when the Liveoak-treant is 'killed'? Does it turn into a tree with 76 fewer hit points or is it reduced to kindling?

Oh! I found something! Plants have Con scores and are objects!

Plant Type: This type comprises vegetable creatures. Note that regular plants, such as one finds growing in gardens and fields, lack Wisdom and Charisma scores (see Nonabilities) and are not creatures, but objects, even though they are alive.

I really find this a facinating discussion of some strange intersections of different rules and spells. In an actual game it's going to be a complete DM's choice and I'd run with the rule of cool. But the RAW is really twisty and confused here by things that aren't directly defined or explained.

[Milo v3]

Are we sure constructs can't leave corpses? If a destroyed construct or object doesn't leave any corpse or body then what does it leave?
It can leave a body, but it wont be a dead body as it didn't die (it was destroyed), and thus doesn't fit the definition of a corpse.


Oh! I found something! Plants have Con scores and are objects!

It just says that they aren't creatures because they lack Wis and Cha, that doesn't mean they have constitution scores.

[ShurikVch]

"Able to be Raised = Yes" and "Able to be Undead = No" do not have to be mutually exclusive properties. Warforged are just weird like that. You missing the point: If they were incorrect (or dishonest) about one thing (existence of souls in warforged), they also may be incorrect (or dishonest) about another thing (possibility of undeath for warforged)
It's not like House Cannith even specialized in undead or something. Let's ask, say, Order of the Emerald Claw!


Try reading the source next time. Specifically, the same paragraph: Then what's about the True Resurrection? "This spell can even bring back creatures whose bodies have been destroyed..." No body, no soul, so what, exactly, it bring back?


Breland argued that because warforged can be raised and resurrected, they must have souls. Of course, House Cannith and Thrane countered that no warforged brought back from death told tales of any kind of afterlife.[/INDENT] Non-disclosure agreement :smallcool:

[Telok]

It can leave a body, but it wont be a dead body as it didn't die (it was destroyed), and thus doesn't fit the definition of a corpse.

It just says that they aren't creatures because they lack Wis and Cha, that doesn't mean they have constitution scores.
So something has to be alive before it can be dead? Doesn't dead mean "not alive"? Is there some third state where things are neither alive or dead?

As for the plant thing it is explicit that they are alive and that they lack Int and Chr. It does not say that they lack a Con and in D&D land being alive apparently requires a Con score. Are you saying that a Con score in not required to be alive?

[Milo v3]

So something has to be alive before it can be dead? Doesn't dead mean "not alive"? Is there some third state where things are neither alive or dead?
Yes. Dead means "no longer alive". Yes.


As for the plant thing it is explicit that they are alive and that they lack Int and Chr. It does not say that they lack a Con and in D&D land being alive apparently requires a Con score. Are you saying that a Con score in not required to be alive?
We'll there is the weirdness of awakened trees, which sort of are living and not living at the same time according to the rules, since they are creatures of the Plant type they should be alive, but they lack a constitution score... which is why it's weird, and it implies that trees don't have constitution scores IMO.

[Psyren]

I think the pathfinder version of skeleton is less picky. I am pretty sure you can apply the template to any creature with a skeleton, such as a flesh golem.

"The corpse must have bones" line is still there for PF Animate Dead though.


You missing the point: If they were incorrect (or dishonest) about one thing (existence of souls in warforged), they also may be incorrect (or dishonest) about another thing (possibility of undeath for warforged)
It's not like House Cannith even specialized in undead or something. Let's ask, say, Order of the Emerald Claw!

No, you're the one missing the point. Whether Warforged have souls is actually irrelevant; the one empirical bit of evidence we have is "they can't be made into undead by any known method." That is something living residents of Eberron can empirically witness or attempt for themselves, and prove or disprove via experiment. Certainly trying to make a single zombie out of one would not be difficult even for a low-magic populace.

All the rest - do they go to an afterlife, what specifically happens when you raise them, are you actually calling them back from somewhere or not - is window dressing and has nothing to do with the main question. It could be as simple as "warforged were designed in such a way that the magic that raises other living creatures functions as a "reactivation function call" for their slain forms without interacting on a soul of any kind."

[ShurikVch]

From Races of Eberron, page 16:

Their evidence for this was that warforged cannot become undead by any known method, not even ghosts or shadows." Funny argument. We all know appearance of ghost is a random happening, since 3.5 lacks spells to make ghosts. Shadows unable to make into spawn even Monstrous Humanoids, all the more Living Constructs. And spell Create Greater Undead... How many high-level necromancers they have? Creating a Shadow required CL 15... Lady Vol herself is only 16


"they can't be made into undead by any known method." Are they consulted with the Erandis d’Vol? :smallconfused: If not, then, probably, it should say "can't be made into undead by any known to as method."

That is something living residents of Eberron can empirically witness or attempt for themselves, and prove or disprove via experiment. Certainly trying to make a single zombie out of one would not be difficult even for a low-magic populace. You can't make an octopus into zombie. Does it mean octopuses are immune to undeath? :smallconfused:

[Gullintanni]

You can't make an octopus into zombie. Does it mean octopuses are immune to undeath? :smallconfused:

No, it means they're immune zombification. Since there is no blanket statement to be found anywhere in the literature of 3.5 that prohibits Octopi from becoming other forms of undead, then RAW prevails. They have no bones, so Skeleton is off the table. Whether or not they can become other undead would be a factor of their creature type combined with the language specific to the creation method or entry of each individual undead. I don't see any reason, for example, that an Octopus could not become a Wight or a Shadow.

According to Races of Eberron; however, Warforged cannot be undead. The language is more specific, and therefore, more prohibitive.

[Psyren]

Funny argument. We all know appearance of ghost is a random happening, since 3.5 lacks spells to make ghosts. Shadows unable to make into spawn even Monstrous Humanoids, all the more Living Constructs. And spell Create Greater Undead... How many high-level necromancers they have? Creating a Shadow required CL 15... Lady Vol herself is only 16

It says "not even ghosts or shadows" - implying they tried the lesser and easily reachable forms like zombies as well, and similarly failed.


Are they consulted with the Erandis d’Vol? :smallconfused: If not, then, probably, it should say "can't be made into undead by any known to as method."

Vol and similarly unique beings are irrelevant to this thread, which is about generic necromancers.


You can't make an octopus into zombie. Does it mean octopuses are immune to undeath? :smallconfused:

Source for bold? :smallconfused:
Octopi are animals and thus have true anatomy.

[Chronos]

But octopodes do not have a skeletal system, which is also a requirement.

And I think the argument about that quote from Races is not that House Cannith is mistaken, but that they are simply lying. They say that warforged can't be turned into ghosts or shadows, but there's no way they could possibly know that, since there's no controlled way to make a ghost, and the only way to make a non-humanoid shadow requires a spellcaster more powerful than any House Cannith has access to. And if they're lying about that part of their claim, then they're probably lying about the rest of it, too.

[ShurikVch]

According to Races of Eberron; however, Warforged cannot be undead. The language is more specific, and therefore, more prohibitive. Not so specific as You may think:

From Races of Eberron, page 16:

"Their evidence for this was that warforged cannot become undead by any known method, not even ghosts or shadows." Known method... :smallsigh:
Are they know about Shrouds of the Unholy?
Are they know about the spell Uneath after Death?
Are they know procedure for creation of Charnel Hound (required 200 unspecified corpses)?
Are they know about transformation rituals, such as described in Savage Species?
Are they know about the capstone transformation of certain classes, such as Deathwalker or Death Master?
Hell, Grim Psion (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20030628b) gets undeath at level 1 !!!


Source for bold? :smallconfused:
Octopi are animals and thus have true anatomy. Creating A Zombie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm):
"Zombie" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
Octopus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus#Biology):
Unlike most other cephalopods, the majority of octopuses – those in the suborder most commonly known, Incirrina (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incirrina) – have almost entirely soft bodies with no internal skeleton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeleton). They have neither a protective outer shell (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_shell) like the nautilus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nautilus), nor any vestige of an internal shell or bones (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone), like cuttlefish or squid. The beak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalopod_beak), similar in shape to a parrot (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrot)'s beak, and made of chitin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chitin), is the only hard part of their bodies.

[Psyren]

1) "No internal skeleton" != "no skeletal system." Octopi in fact have a hydrostatic skeleton. (This doesn't really help Warforged, but hey.)

2) You're still missing the point about "no known method" - even if one of your corner cases were to work on Warforged, it doesn't mean jack unless the necromancers know about it and can replicate it, which is the point of this thread.

[ShurikVch]

1) "No internal skeleton" != "no skeletal system." Octopi in fact have a hydrostatic skeleton. (This doesn't really help Warforged, but hey.) Worms also have it, but, IIRR, worms are not fit for zombification. Moreover, insectile creatures, despite having decent exoskeleton, are not work with Animate Dead. (Husk Vermine required Create Greater Undead)


2) You're still missing the point about "no known method" - even if one of your corner cases were to work on Warforged, it doesn't mean jack unless the necromancers know about it and can replicate it, which is the point of this thread. If someone doesn't know how to do something, it doesn't mean do that something is completely impossible
Necromancers may - by my list:
cast spell Uneath after Death (if they have access to it);
complete one of transformation rituals;
create Charnel Hound out of 200 dead warforged (assuming they know procedure and have CL 20+);
cast Wish or Miracle;
and, of course, about anybody, including necromancers, may use Shrouds of the Unholy

[Afgncaap5]

I always feel a bit weird about mixing material from two different campaign settings that weren't meant to mesh with each other, but the question of whether or not a Warforged has a soul actually would matter in some cases relating to, say, the Ghostwalk setting. For instance, the spell Ghost Lock (Ghostwalk, page 54) might be able to allow a necromancer to preemptively raise a willing Warforged. The spell is Abjuraction (Ectomancy), so doesn't really get nullified by a Construct's immunities to necromancy effects (though I think those could affect Warforged anyway), the spell specifically targets a "willing nonhumanoid", and then it says "If the nonhumanoid subject creature dies while this spell is in effect, the creature’s soul does not immediately enter the realm of the dead, and it can instead attempt to enter the Material Plane as a ghost, just as if it were a type of creature (humanoid) normally capable of such."

That doesn't allow a Warforged to become a skeleton or zombie of course (something I'm fine with, but I'd want to introduce some story-based reason for it, like an eldritch machine or long lost giant schema or something), but might it qualify as a means of making a Warforged a ghost, at least temporarily?

It also meets the qualification of "no known way" since it's in a campaign setting different from Eberron (though one that could be dropped into Eberron with minimal difficulty I think, probably somewhere in Karrnath, or a rare human settlement in Aerenal), and the Ghostwalk concepts of "True Afterlife" and "Beyond the Veil" actually fit really well with Eberron's oddly silent deities and people fading away from Mabar after too long.

[HunterOfJello]

I would not be surprised if there is some method of creating undead out there that can work on a living-construct or construct due to rule limitations not being stated outright in said specific method's text.


You can, of course, always incarnate construct, kill it, and then raise it. However, i don't think that entirely counts.

[Telok]

I kind of hate posting from tablets, too limited.

Someone (sorry) on the last page said that things with no Con score cannot be dead. Which, if you accept that trees are living objects without Con scores, means that trees and plants can never die. Now, objects can be destroyed by being reduced to zero hp, but according to this interpretation they never become dead. Since it is claimed that destroyed and dead cannot overlap a destroyed plant isn't dead. Thus all plant material that isn't from a plant typed monster with a Con score is still alive because destroying the plant doesn't kill it. Therefor a wooden shield works against a brilliant energy weapon.

What I need to do sometime is go through this thread, find all the cited rules, and put them in some sort of relationship web. But I don't know when I will have the time.

[CIDE]

I'd allow the warforged zombies/skeletons. Semantics aside, they're not game-breaking and quite frankly interesting.

This through and through. As a DM I'd allow it for a lot of undead types. No real RAW way to do it considering all the points in this thread but it'd be cool to see.

[YossarianLives]

Surely they just take craft construct and save us all this trouble.

[deuxhero]

Note that Pathfinder changed the requirements for zombies. It can now "be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead)", dropping the "that has a skeletal system"

If Animate Dead can do it or not is up in the air, but it's a legal template option in PF>

[HyperDunkBarkly]

I would probably rule against it on sheer RAI. simple fleshy vs robot reasoning.

[JDL]

If I was DM I'd definitely be saying no. There's a RAW precedent in Races of Eberron, it's clearly not RAI, and I just don't want zombie robot pirate ninjas in my game.

[M Placeholder]

Me? I'm starting to wonder if I can create zombie trees.


In the Dark Sun setting (and Ravenloft), you can - by draining it of its life force to power a magic spell, there is a chance it can rise as a defiled. Not sure if it works in any other settings, though I'm guessing that
leaving 10ft circles of ash everywhere won't endear you to the general populace of a region.

http://athas.org/products/toa

[Telok]

I found something.

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050809a
Constructs (Part One)
By Skip Williams

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050823a
Constructs (Part Three)
By Skip Williams

A WotC breakdown of constructs and living constructs.

Plus I found a conflict or two.
Animate Dead
This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands. They remain animated until they are destroyed. (A destroyed skeleton or zombie can’t be animated again.)
Skeletons: A skeleton can be created only from a mostly intact corpse or skeleton. The corpse must have bones. If a skeleton is made from a corpse, the flesh falls off the bones.
Zombies: A zombie can be created only from a mostly intact corpse. The corpse must be that of a creature with a true anatomy.
Zombie
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm
Creating A Zombie: "Zombie" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).
Skeleton
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm
Creating A Skeleton: "Skeleton" is an acquired template that can be added to any corporeal creature (other than an undead) that has a skeletal system (referred to hereafter as the base creature).

Animate Dead says you can create a skeleton from a corpse or skeleton and that if you use a corpse then that corpse must have bones. The skeleton template allows it to be applied to any non-undead corporeal creature with a skeletal system. So you cannot use the Animate Dead spell to apply the skeleton template to a giant spider or shark corpse because they don't have bones, they have chitin and cartilage. But you can use Animate Dead on a shark or giant spider skeleton (skeleton is a structure, bone is a material). Defeated Flesh Golems are better because they are made from dead bodies, have skeletons made of bone, and they are not undead.

For zombies you need a skeleton and an undefined "true anatomy". Which seems to rule out all plants both creature and object (no skeleton), constructs, oozes, and things with amorphous (http://www.d20srd.org/search.htm?q=amorphous) forms. Now the amorphous form thing is interesting, a Gibbering Mouther is right out but what about a Will O Wisp or Mimic? Mimics are shapechangers and do not have the amorphous quality nor are they called out as not having a skeleton, the skeleton and anatomy of a wisp are undefined beyond being a "spongy body". Will O Wisps are vulnerable to criticals, abberations are called out as having "bizarre anatomy" but they do appear to have one, and even sponges have skeletons. Actually the wisps are out, they have no eye sockets or mouths. But Mimics do have mouths.

Ah, my poor zombie trees. Laid low by not having a skeleton... Except that a skeleton is a physical structure, trees are pretty tough, and we have cocaine wizards. All I have to do is graft or grow a skeletal structure in/on a tree and...

[unseenmage]

Living Constructs(in contrast to Constructs) are an interesting question. All signs point to yes. Living constructs are alive and can become dead(0 Con not Con -) so they count as corpses as per the Animate Dead spell. I am not sure if their anatomy counts enough to qualify to be zombies, but the metal skeleton of a dead warforged would probably count for animation as a skeleton.

Faiths of Eberron has a line of text which explicitly disallows Warforged from being undead. :smallfrown:

That said there is also non-rules text in some other Eberron book somewhere which refers to undead warforged Kaarnath developed during the last days of the war.



I also vaguely remember an undead which is the near-ghostly remnants of a golem left too long in the elements. Basically what happens when a golem finally succumbs to the effects of entropy/erosion and turns into a dusty/ghostly undead. I want to say it's in Libris Mortis but it could be anywhere. I remember there being a pic of it though.



Finally, the spell Greater Humanoid Essence from Races of Eberron(?) changes a Construct into a Humanoid for a short time. During which you can do all kinds of fun things to it, a lot of which will persist after it changes back. Things like casting Revivify on it then killing it so the spell brings it right back to life since when it dies it was a Humanoid and wasn't immune to being raised.

[ShurikVch]

From Forge of War, page 85:

The necromancers of Karrnath have made a horrific discovery deep in the gray mist. A band of warforged once assumed to be part of the Lord of Blades’ cult are in fact nothing of the kind. Just as the warforged are “sort of” alive, they can apparently become “sort of” undead. These “woeforged,” as the necromancers have come to call them, are rusted and broken, just as normal undead are often decayed, and they show the same affinity for negative energy as other undead. Where they come from, who created them, and what they can do remain unclear. The Karrns seek to learn more about them before deciding whether to share the discovery with others.

[M Placeholder]

From Forge of War, page 85:

The necromancers of Karrnath have made a horrific discovery deep in the gray mist. A band of warforged once assumed to be part of the Lord of Blades’ cult are in fact nothing of the kind. Just as the warforged are “sort of” alive, they can apparently become “sort of” undead. These “woeforged,” as the necromancers have come to call them, are rusted and broken, just as normal undead are often decayed, and they show the same affinity for negative energy as other undead. Where they come from, who created them, and what they can do remain unclear. The Karrns seek to learn more about them before deciding whether to share the discovery with others.

Do any of them have levels in the Ninja or Pirate classes?

[Afgncaap5]

I'd let them have both Ninja and Swashbuckler as favored classes, personally. It just seems right.

[unseenmage]

From Forge of War, page 85:

The necromancers of Karrnath have made a horrific discovery deep in the gray mist. A band of warforged once assumed to be part of the Lord of Blades’ cult are in fact nothing of the kind. Just as the warforged are “sort of” alive, they can apparently become “sort of” undead. These “woeforged,” as the necromancers have come to call them, are rusted and broken, just as normal undead are often decayed, and they show the same affinity for negative energy as other undead. Where they come from, who created them, and what they can do remain unclear. The Karrns seek to learn more about them before deciding whether to share the discovery with others.

There it is! Thanks you.
The feat chain for Tomb Tainted Soul (LM31) lets a character act more and more like an undead. Perhaps these Woeforged have taken that?

[M Placeholder]

There it is! Thanks you.
The feat chain for Tomb Tainted Soul (LM31) lets a character act more and more like an undead. Perhaps these Woeforged have taken that?

They could have taken the Lichloved feat :smalleek:

[CIDE]

They could have taken the Lichloved feat :smalleek:

i don't even want to picture how a Warforged and [Insert Undead Type here] were able to have...."intimate" encounters.

[Chronos]

So there we go, proof that House Cannith was lying about them not being able to be turned into undead. Given that we now know they were lying, we can completely disregard that statement, and go by the other evidence, which says they can be animated.

[atemu1234]

i don't even want to picture how a Warforged and [Insert Undead Type here] were able to have...."intimate" encounters.

I'm going to say it rhymes with trap-pawns?

[CIDE]

I'm going to say it rhymes with trap-pawns?

why did you have to do that...?

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2013/181/2/2/gf___can_t_be_unread_by_tigerblack62-d6b9mhk.jpg

[unseenmage]

So there we go, proof that House Cannith was lying about them not being able to be turned into undead. Given that we now know they were lying, we can completely disregard that statement, and go by the other evidence, which says they can be animated.

Except for the explicit wording in Faiths of Eberron that flat out says they can't be undead. :smallfrown:

[Milo v3]

Except for the explicit wording in Faiths of Eberron that flat out says they can't be undead. :smallfrown:
Eh, just don't play in eberron and just use the racial crunch as the basis of the flavour.

[Chronos]

Except for the explicit wording in Faiths of Eberron that flat out says they can't be undead.
Where is that wording? The only quote anyone's shown so far is just House Cannith claiming that they can't be undead.

[Psyren]

So there we go, proof that House Cannith was lying about them not being able to be turned into undead. Given that we now know they were lying, we can completely disregard that statement, and go by the other evidence, which says they can be animated.

Hold your horses there Lone Ranger; Woeforged don't disprove anything. As pointed out above, they are just as easily explained (even more easily, in fact) by simply having Tomb-Tainted Soul. The only difference between Woeforged and Warforged noted in the text is that they are a little worse for wear and have negative energy affinity. That does not mean they are truly undead.

[unseenmage]

Where is that wording? The only quote anyone's shown so far is just House Cannith claiming that they can't be undead.

Faiths of Eberron page 117,

"Religious and philosophical arguments have raged over the question of whether warforged have souls. They cannot become undead, but they can be resurrected. Is the ability to be aware and to reason sufficient evidence for a soul? For the Godforged. there is no question."

[JDL]

Faiths of Eberron page 117,

Another nail in the coffin of the undead warforged debate.

[Afgncaap5]

Hold your horses there Lone Ranger; Woeforged don't disprove anything. As pointed out above, they are just as easily explained (even more easily, in fact) by simply having Tomb-Tainted Soul. The only difference between Woeforged and Warforged noted in the text is that they are a little worse for wear and have negative energy affinity. That does not mean they are truly undead.

True. This may be a previously unknown Reanimated Construct creature type.

I'm half tempted to make six different stat blocks for a Woeforged, and the only difference between them would be the creature type. They'd be Reanimated Construct, Undead, Construct, Living Construct, Undead (Augmented Living Construct), and Aberration.

Oh, and a seventh one of the Outsider (native) type, using the Dwarf Ancestor as inspiration. Probably related to some weird Becoming God/Devourer/Keeper triumvirate cult.

[unseenmage]

Another nail in the coffin of the undead warforged debate.
Which bums me out. I very much prefer the game without that pesky line of text. :smallfrown:


True. This may be a previously unknown Reanimated Construct creature type.

I'm half tempted to make six different stat blocks for a Woeforged, and the only difference between them would be the creature type. They'd be Reanimated Construct, Undead, Construct, Living Construct, Undead (Augmented Living Construct), and Aberration.

Oh, and a seventh one of the Outsider (native) type, using the Dwarf Ancestor as inspiration. Probably related to some weird Becoming God/Devourer/Keeper triumvirate cult.
That would be cool. Can almost guarantee I'd use them for something.

[Telok]

In FR the rule is that people without gods go to the wall of the faithless. That is not a general D&D rule, it is a setting specific rule.
If Eberron has a rule saying that warforged cannot become undead then that is a setting specific rule. In general D&D the living construct subtype and the warforged race description in MM3 do not prohibit warforged from becoming undead.
The major issue with warforged zombies and skeketons is whether or not the frame is a skeletal structure and the question of what "true anatomy" means.

[Psyren]

In FR the rule is that people without gods go to the wall of the faithless. That is not a general D&D rule, it is a setting specific rule.
If Eberron has a rule saying that warforged cannot become undead then that is a setting specific rule. In general D&D the living construct subtype and the warforged race description in MM3 do not prohibit warforged from becoming undead.
The major issue with warforged zombies and skeketons is whether or not the frame is a skeletal structure and the question of what "true anatomy" means.

The problem with this logic is that they are addressing very different things. Dying happens in every setting, thus you can say the Wall only applies to FR. But Warforged are an Eberron-specific race.

In addition, the Wall rules specifically state they only apply to FR. The Warforged rules, by contrast, just say "Warforged don't X" - rather than "Warforged in Eberron don't X."

[Thurbane]

Warforged with Corrupted by the Abyss template becomes an aberration, and can then receive the Gravetouched Ghoul template.

Not exactly the intent of the thread, but...

[JDL]

Are there any creatures other than Warforged with the living construct type in any printed WoTC materials?

Because unless there is, arguing that the rules regarding undead and living constructs being limited to Eberron only is meaningless.

If you're creating "creature which is a living construct but not a Warforged and can be undead" that's homebrew, and should be in a different forum.

[Chronos]

Soulfused constructs, from Magic of Incarnum, are also living constructs.

And warforged may have originated in the Eberron setting, but they also appeared in the setting-neutral Monster Manual 3, so they're fair game for any setting.

[Afgncaap5]

Are there any creatures other than Warforged with the living construct type in any printed WoTC materials?

Because unless there is, arguing that the rules regarding undead and living constructs being limited to Eberron only is meaningless.

If you're creating "creature which is a living construct but not a Warforged and can be undead" that's homebrew, and should be in a different forum.

Also, a specific kind of Modron called Exiled Modrons from Dragon 354 have the Living Construct subtype.



That would be cool. Can almost guarantee I'd use them for something.

All righty. I wound up not making a stat block, but I *did* create a sort of rushed template that I can pull upon in the future. Here it is.

"Woeforged" is an acquired template that can be added to any Living Construct referred to as a Warforged in its stat block or description, or any Construct referred to as a Warforged in its stat block or description (referred to hereafter as the base creature.) A Woeforged has all the base creature's statistics except as noted here.

Size and Type: The base creature's size is unchanged. The base creature's type is honestly up in the air, but feel free to pick from Undead, Construct (Reanimated Construct), Construct (Living Construct), Construct, Undead (Augmented Living Construct), Construct (Augmented Construct (Living Construct)), Outsider (Native), or Aberration.

Armor Class: The base creature gains a bonus to its natural armor class as if it was a zombie.

Special Qualities: A Woeforged retains all of the base creature's special qualities, and gains those described below:

Undead Traits: Sure, why not? If nothing else, it loses its Constitution score.

Erroded Soul (Ex): A Woeforged gains an immunity to all mind-affecting effects and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless that effect would work on objects or is otherwise harmless. It gains bonus hit points as if it were a construct of the appropriate size, and becomes disabled when it reaches zero hit points. Unlike a construct or undead, it isn't destroyed until it drops to -10 hit points.

Unholy Fortification (Su): A Woeforged is more closely tied to its physical structure, and gains an immunity to cold damage, such as from Chill Metal. However, the unholy energy lingering within it means that it is subject to turning damage... usually. When subjected to a turning effect, there is a 25% chance that no turning damage occurs. If a turning check is successful and would destroy the Woeforged, it is instead reduced to zero hitpoints it becomes inert until it gains more hit points.

Sort-Of Undead (Ex): The Woeforged is treated as undead for all spells that harm the living but hurt undead. However, it takes half as much benefit as an undead creature truly would. (As such, an Inflict Light Wounds spell only heals half of its damage.)

Abilities: As noted above, the Woeforged loses its Constitution score. If the base creature has class levels, the Woeforged's Intelligence is unchanged; otherwise, it is mindless and loses its Intelligence score. (Unless you want a ravenous pack of wild monsters or something, then go ahead and make it mindless even if it has class levels. Knock yourself out, kiddo.)

Feats: If you've chosen not to change the creature's type and think the entire concept of the Woeforged just makes more sense if a Warforged has the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat, give it to them as a bonus feat, though the changes from Sort-Of Undead override any benefit of this feat. However, the Woeforged can still qualify for any other feats or prestige classes that require Tomb-Tainted Soul as a prerequisite if you go this route.

Challenge Rating: Increase the base creature's challenge rating by... oh... let's say... 1.

One thing I regret is that I didn't put in any custom abilities, something like the wight's ability to create more wights by killing them, a ghost's ability to possess things or walk through walls, or a vampire's ability to mesmerize with a glare. It'd be nice to have some sort of unholy ability that might seem horrifying to constructs but might be less so to humanoids. If (and when) I ever unleash this in an Eberron game, I'd probably try to make each Woeforged a custom entity.

[Psyren]

The base creature's type is honestly up in the air...

I think you managed to satisfy all sides of this debate at least :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

So there we go, proof that House Cannith was lying about them not being able to be turned into undead. Given that we now know they were lying, we can completely disregard that statement, and go by the other evidence, which says they can be animated.

Well, we know there's something weird going on about them and that like all Dragonmarked houses, Cannith is a pack of liars, thieves, and murderers(that's why they're in houses in the first place, after all), so it's one possibility that they're lying here.

They could also be just as unaware of the weirdness of woeforged as the rest of the setting, though, and more have just not fully investigated the potentials of making necromantic warforged on their own due to their own economic interests and the various troubles of the house that came with the destruction of Cyre.


There it is! Thanks you.
The feat chain for Tomb Tainted Soul (LM31) lets a character act more and more like an undead. Perhaps these Woeforged have taken that?

Perhaps. Or perhaps they're actually undead.

We don't know, but we do know it casts doubt on the certainty of the Faiths of Eberron blurb.

Ah, the joys of unreliable narration in rules text. :smallamused:


Except for the explicit wording in Faiths of Eberron that flat out says they can't be undead. :smallfrown:

Unreliable Narration! Rabble-Rabble! :smalltongue:


Hold your horses there Lone Ranger; Woeforged don't disprove anything. As pointed out above, they are just as easily explained (even more easily, in fact) by simply having Tomb-Tainted Soul. The only difference between Woeforged and Warforged noted in the text is that they are a little worse for wear and have negative energy affinity. That does not mean they are truly undead.

On the contrary, we simply don't have enough details for either potential explanation to fit better than the other, and the passage mostly just serves to cast doubt on the ironclad certainty of the Faiths of Eberron passage, since, y'know, The Mourning was a pretty weird event and has some pretty darn weird lasting effects.

I believe there are other side-effects of The Mourning that are also impossible based upon the knowledge those in-setting have of their own lore but which are fait accompli nonetheless.


i don't even want to picture how a Warforged and [Insert Undead Type here] were able to have...."intimate" encounters.


He's Fully Functional~~~~

-And Anatomically correct!

:smalltongue:

Otherwise, BoEF.

Pimpforged, protege of Pimp Krusk.

Etc.

[unseenmage]

Also, a specific kind of Modron called Exiled Modrons from Dragon 354 have the Living Construct subtype.

Cool! I did not know about those. Thanks for the info.



All righty. I wound up not making a stat block, but I *did* create a sort of rushed template that I can pull upon in the future. Here it is.

"Woeforged" is an acquired template that can be added to any Living Construct referred to as a Warforged in its stat block or description, or any Construct referred to as a Warforged in its stat block or description (referred to hereafter as the base creature.) A Woeforged has all the base creature's statistics except as noted here.

Size and Type: The base creature's size is unchanged. The base creature's type is honestly up in the air, but feel free to pick from Undead, Construct (Reanimated Construct), Construct (Living Construct), Construct, Undead (Augmented Living Construct), Construct (Augmented Construct (Living Construct)), Outsider (Native), or Aberration.

Armor Class: The base creature gains a bonus to its natural armor class as if it was a zombie.

Special Qualities: A Woeforged retains all of the base creature's special qualities, and gains those described below:

Undead Traits: Sure, why not? If nothing else, it loses its Constitution score.

Erroded Soul (Ex): A Woeforged gains an immunity to all mind-affecting effects and any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless that effect would work on objects or is otherwise harmless. It gains bonus hit points as if it were a construct of the appropriate size, and becomes disabled when it reaches zero hit points. Unlike a construct or undead, it isn't destroyed until it drops to -10 hit points.

Unholy Fortification (Su): A Woeforged is more closely tied to its physical structure, and gains an immunity to cold damage, such as from Chill Metal. However, the unholy energy lingering within it means that it is subject to turning damage... usually. When subjected to a turning effect, there is a 25% chance that no turning damage occurs. If a turning check is successful and would destroy the Woeforged, it is instead reduced to zero hitpoints it becomes inert until it gains more hit points.

Sort-Of Undead (Ex): The Woeforged is treated as undead for all spells that harm the living but hurt undead. However, it takes half as much benefit as an undead creature truly would. (As such, an Inflict Light Wounds spell only heals half of its damage.)

Abilities: As noted above, the Woeforged loses its Constitution score. If the base creature has class levels, the Woeforged's Intelligence is unchanged; otherwise, it is mindless and loses its Intelligence score. (Unless you want a ravenous pack of wild monsters or something, then go ahead and make it mindless even if it has class levels. Knock yourself out, kiddo.)

Feats: If you've chosen not to change the creature's type and think the entire concept of the Woeforged just makes more sense if a Warforged has the Tomb-Tainted Soul feat, give it to them as a bonus feat, though the changes from Sort-Of Undead override any benefit of this feat. However, the Woeforged can still qualify for any other feats or prestige classes that require Tomb-Tainted Soul as a prerequisite if you go this route.

Challenge Rating: Increase the base creature's challenge rating by... oh... let's say... 1.

One thing I regret is that I didn't put in any custom abilities, something like the wight's ability to create more wights by killing them, a ghost's ability to possess things or walk through walls, or a vampire's ability to mesmerize with a glare. It'd be nice to have some sort of unholy ability that might seem horrifying to constructs but might be less so to humanoids. If (and when) I ever unleash this in an Eberron game, I'd probably try to make each Woeforged a custom entity.

Could make a 'Greater' version that combines all of the above traits for higher level play. Sort of stone soup of warforged, wight, and vampire abilities all mixed into one.

[Psyren]

On the contrary, we simply don't have enough details for either potential explanation to fit better than the other, and the passage mostly just serves to cast doubt on the ironclad certainty of the Faiths of Eberron passage, since, y'know, The Mourning was a pretty weird event and has some pretty darn weird lasting effects.

And yet, the TTS feat does provide a simple explanation that fits both the FoE and RoE passages. We may not know for sure, but Occam's Razor.

[ShurikVch]

Are there any creatures other than Warforged with the living construct type in any printed WoTC materials? Besides those already mentioned, there are also Renegade Mastermaker capstone (MoE), Dust-Stuffed template (EH), Merchurion (from MM5), and Shadow Simulacrum template (from Shadowdale: The Scouring of the Land)

From the metagame perspective, you couldn't be “sort of” undead - either you are undead or not. We have spell Detect Undead for this stuff. If you don't ping on it, you are not undead, no matter how dead you look; and if you detected by it, you are undead - end of story. (There are also spells Halt Undead, Command Undead, and Control Undead)

Problem with undead templates is: they are, exactly, templates. You must fit basic requirements to get one; but if you are, in fact, fit, then nothing in the RAW may stop template from applying.
The only example of "you can, except you can't" for template (AFAIK) is note from Savage Species for Celestial/Fiendish templates: "Although the text says it can be added to any corporeal creature ... the base creature must be living";
which is doesn't matter anymore, because it was before the 3.5;
also, requirements for those templates were changed in 3.5, so it's very hard to fit in nonliving creature;
and finally, the very same Savage Species have spell to make fiendish undead... How consistent!.. :smallamused:

[SangoProduction]

Didn't read all of the posts yet, but, Psyren is getting annoying.
Anatomy: the structure of an animal or plant, or of any of its parts. (Reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anatomy)
Congratulations: wood is made of plants, the wood is living. The creature is living, as stated directly in it's subtype. It's an animal. It has a structure. There, it's got anatomy.

[mashlagoo1982]

From the metagame perspective, you couldn't be “sort of” undead - either you are undead or not. We have spell Detect Undead for this stuff. If you don't ping on it, you are not undead, no matter how dead you look; and if you detected by it, you are undead - end of story. (There are also spells Halt Undead, Command Undead, and Control Undead)


What about half-vampires?

Are they not "sort of" undead?

I don't have the book in front of me atm, but I think they may cause problems for the spells listed.

[OldTrees1]

What about half-vampires?

Are they not "sort of" undead?

I don't have the book in front of me atm, but I think they may cause problems for the spells listed.

Half Vampires are not undead and have no spell interactions of note.

[ShurikVch]

Warforged with Corrupted by the Abyss template becomes an aberration, and can then receive the Gravetouched Ghoul template. Actually, it's even better:
"Doresain has the power to add the gravetouched ghoul template (...) to creatures to which the template is normally not applicable."
He may, if he wish so, add this template directly to warforged!


What about half-vampires?

Are they not "sort of" undead? Not a half-vampire, but undead crossbreeds from Dragon#313 are, indeed, detected as undead (and Stunned by successful Destroy/Command Undead attempt)
But it is, AFAIK, the only example (and from the Dragon magazine)
Also, it required crossbreeding, which is way beyond warforged (unless you Incarnate them)

[unseenmage]

...

Not a half-vampire, but undead crossbreeds from Dragon#313 are, indeed, detected as undead (and Stunned by successful Destroy/Command Undead attempt)
But it is, AFAIK, the only example (and from the Dragon magazine)
Also, it required crossbreeding, which is way beyond warforged (unless you Incarnate them)

Unsure what all comes witht he Humanoid type when they're Greater Humanoid Essence-ed (RoE). By RAW they don't gain reproductive capabilities, but then again they do gain vital organs which can be Sneak Attacked as they lose the immunity to crit hits granted them by their old Construct type.

EDIT: One could even presume that there is precedent in Incarnate Construct (SS) explicitly granting Humanoid organs to Constructs and perhaps the RAI for Greater Humanoid Essence is to use Incarnate Construct as precedent for such.
But there's a bit more assumption/presumption in that for my taste.

In any case the idea sure makes my favorite spell combination of the above with Elation (BoED) and Distilled Joy (BoED) much more awkward. :smalleek:

[goto124]

You guys were talking about robot vampires?

[mashlagoo1982]

You guys were talking about robot vampires?

One reason why this thread/site is awesome.

Now I want to play some SmashUp.

[Psyren]

Didn't read all of the posts yet, but, Psyren is getting annoying.
Anatomy: the structure of an animal or plant, or of any of its parts. (Reference: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/anatomy)
Congratulations: wood is made of plants, the wood is living. The creature is living, as stated directly in it's subtype. It's an animal. It has a structure. There, it's got anatomy.

Sorry to annoy you further, but Plants (like oozes and elementals) are not subject to critical hits - therefore, in game terms, no anatomy.

In addition, even if they do have an anatomy, the exact term used in Animate Dead is "true anatomy." While this qualifier is not elaborated on, it suggest something stronger or more definitive than simply "you are a whole that is the sum of various parts."

[Telok]

Living construct + half-elemental -> necromental. Will that work?
Alternately half- celestial/fiend might be able to do it.

[Chronos]

For what it's worth, one Halloween I was a mummified firebreathing mutant vampire zombie alien robot dinosaur. No, I'm not sure how to get three different undead templates, either.

[Rubik]

Hyperconscious's Psianimate Dead power allows you to undeadify anything, so long as it left corporeal remains, whether it was an Awakened tree, a construct, an elemental, or something else.

[Afgncaap5]

From the metagame perspective, you couldn't be “sort of” undead - either you are undead or not. We have spell Detect Undead for this stuff. If you don't ping on it, you are not undead, no matter how dead you look; and if you detected by it, you are undead - end of story. (There are also spells Halt Undead, Command Undead, and Control Undead)

That's a good point from, as you put it, a metagame perspective. The storyteller in me disagrees (which is probably why I do all sorts of weird things with creatures and creature types in my games), but from a purely rules-based perspective, yes.

That raises a weird question for me, though: do things that can Detect Life detect the Warforged? Let's say there's some sort of undead ability that lets a creature know that a living creature is nearby (I want to say I remember something like this, but can't say that I remember where it is.) Do these things fail to notice Warforged?

[PraxisVetli]

Which splatbook has the Warforged Head Cannon graft? Is it similar to the Maug Stone Spitter?
Underrated post.

[Telok]

Warforged are alive due to both the subtype and having a Con score.

Here's one: Dragons can be skeletonized and zombified. Therefore dragon type creatures qualify for the templates. The templates create undead based on the racial hit die of the creature, not on class levels. The Dragon Disciple presting class changes a creature's type to Dragon at tenth level. Thus anything that takes ten levels of Dragon Disciple can be the target of Animate Dead.