Charisma, Love and selling souls

[The Insanity]

I'm making an NPC who sold his soul to a devil for a lot of charisma, but as an unexpected side effect most women fall in love with him at first sight (not affected are strong-willed, strong-headed, very faithful or powerful women), including the she-devil that he made the contract with.
I'm wondering how high a Charisma score would you consider to be enough to justify/model this happening.

[Blackhawk748]

I'm making an NPC who sold his soul to a devil for a lot of charisma, but as an unexpected side effect most women fall in love with him at first sight (not affected are strong-willed, strong-headed, very faithful or powerful women), including the she-devil that he made the contract with.
I'm wondering how high a Charisma score would you consider to be enough to justify/model this happening.

At least 4 points higher than hers, also he probably gets a +4 Appearance Bonus on Charisma checks.

[Suteinu]

Well, first of all, don't confuse Charisma with charm. A fellow can have a modest amount of personality and put forth such a sincere (or seemingly so) demeanor through courtesy, compliment, and boyish straight-forewardness as to be quite unassumingly charming.

I think a better approach, if this bonus is intended to focus on females of the opposite sex, is to have your character "blessed" with some kind of supernatural enchantment that all appropriate targets must save against merely by entering a certain proximity or upon meeting him, an ability that he can't turn off or nullify. This will focus his troubles, keep him from being an all-purpose Diplomancer, and even explain why the agent of this blessing is affected by it (demoness rolled a 1 or something). Of course, and I'll be very disappointed in you if this doesn't happen, the one with whom you character falls in love will be string-willed enough to resist his incredible sexiness (Nat 20 = permanent save). Worse, with all the girls falling head-over-heels for him, he'll appear to her as no more than a womanizer, ruining his chances to actually have a sincere relationship with the one woman he wants!

`Course, he won't know that `till after he's made the deal, but what do you expect? It's called a "deal with a devil" because you're making a deal with a devil!

[The Insanity]

Well, first of all, don't confuse Charisma with charm.
I'm not. I'm consciously connecting them in this case.


I think a better approach, if this bonus is intended to focus on females of the opposite sex, is to have your character "blessed" with some kind of supernatural enchantment that all appropriate targets must save against merely by entering a certain proximity or upon meeting him, an ability that he can't turn off or nullify.
Well, it's not a bonus. It's a fluff thing that I simply want to be modeled in the mechanics properly. Unlike silly harem anime/erogames, where the protagonist generally is a loser (or at best average), but still gets all the girls loving him, for no reason whatsoever, here I'd like there to be a justification.
I specifically don't want it to be a magical compulsion of any sort.

[INoKnowNames]

What level is the NPC At?

Because to turn someone who would normally be "Meh" (Indifferent) to you into your immediate sex-buddy (Fanatic. And if someone is willing to throw themselves in front of a Dragon for you, being charm-able into casual sex probably isn't the unreasonable thing about the situation), you'd need a Diplomacy of 90. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#diplomacy)

I ask, because if this NPC could make that check, that would certainly justify it, and a high level of Charisma would certainly help in making it.

For the record, one character I've got on the back-burner is more or less working with a charisma of 30-40, expected to hit 50. Between that and a maxed out Perform, even the Gods would be amazed by her music (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm), and with a maxed out Diplomacy, she'd probably need aid to get past her suitors. Heck, by actual stats, she matches a few gods themselves in terms of Charisma.

Make of this what you will.

[The Insanity]

Who said anything about sex? Besides, comparing "being in love" (or more specifically, "wanting to have sex") to the Fanatic attitude is an exaggeration. Helpful is more appropriate.
The character isn't trying to make anyone to fall in love with him, it just happens on its own. But I guess the Diplomacy DC might be a good benchmark for the minimum Charisma you'd need. That would make a minimum of 50 Cha about right.

[SangoProduction]

Who said anything about sex? Besides, comparing "being in love" (or more specifically, "wanting to have sex") to the Fanatic attitude is an exaggeration. Helpful is more appropriate.
The character isn't trying to make anyone to fall in love with him, it just happens on its own. But I guess the Diplomacy DC might be a good benchmark for the minimum Charisma you'd need. That would make a minimum of 50 Cha about right.

What is your definition of love? A decade old marriage? Generally, the feeling of love at first sight tends to by quite extreme. Different people might not respond in the same way to this concept (few rarely respond the same way with any concept), but it's quite apt to say a jolt of "love" is similar to a fanatic's devotion, if for a lesser duration.
In regards to something that has been actually studied and isn't just a concept, the first few weeks and even months of a relationship has the couple basically drowning in hormones that limit inhibitions and do most anything for the other's attention. This is essentially the "heated love" stage as I call it. Or the "love sick" stage.
-And generally, I'd say this is really only possible en masse through magic compulsion...or if you are Justin Beiber... because it's essentially impossible through sheer force of will.

If your idea is to have them find this guy exceptionally attractive, or of particular note, then it would not be fanatic, and would be helpful, or at least, disturbed. If it's not a one-off spell, the it would be a distracting presence, and it would keep those who saved from being at ease, likely initiating a type of hostility towards him.

Anyway, charisma employs much more than attractiveness alone. It is basically your ability to stand out from a crowd if you wanted to, and to manipulate others. So, just adding raw charisma bonuses wouldn't be exactly appropriate for what you are describing. Not to mention, a diplomacy check can't be made if you don't talk to them, automatically causing you to fail by not even trying....because it is based on your ability to manipulating people to like you.

But you're the DM, and it's unlikely you "need" to stat that ability. Just say it happens. Give your players a chance to save of course, but for all other purposes, you have full say as to what happens.

[Crake]

I would limit the cha increase to match that of the devil granting it, at most. You need to remember, a cha within the mid 20s is unearthly charisma, associated with the likes of succubi, the lords of lust.

If you have a look at the 3rd party book nymphology, there's a prestige class in it, called the seducer, which has an ability that mimics what you're looking for I believe. It's callled "All you can think about". It's not mind affecting, nor is it a compulsion, though it is supernatural.


All You Can Think About (Su): Even so little as a glimpse of a seducer can be enough for someone to lose their heart, especially if the seducer consciously exerts their power to make someone obsess over them.

Activating this ability takes no more than a quick glance across a crowded room after which the target must make a Will save (DC of 10 + seducers level + Charisma modifier) or be unable to think of anything except the seducer. The image of the seducer will haunt their every waking moment and visit them in their dreams for one week per point they failed their save by.

Should the seducer attempt to seduce them, or use magic to enrapture or otherwise mislead them within this period, they receive a -5 penalty to the Will save made to resist the seduction or spell.

It's a 5 level prestige class, so making the DC15+cha mod seems appropriate, and just make it auto activated by all who see the character?

[INoKnowNames]

Who said anything about sex?

As mentioned, big difference between "Hey there, I just met you... and this is crazy. (you know the rest)" with a meaningful relationship, and it seems like you're going for the former than the later.


Besides, comparing "being in love" (or more specifically, "wanting to have sex") to the Fanatic attitude is an exaggeration. Helpful is more appropriate.

Hostile: You've interfered in my plans for the last time!
Unfriendly: If I have to throw you guys in jail again...
Indifferent: Who are you again? Meh, doesn't matter.
Friendly: Ah, if it isn't my favorite customer! What can I do you for?
Helpful: You have my Sword! And my Bow! And my Axe!
Fanatic: I am literally willing to die for you.

Not sure I'd equate helpful with being in love. Fanatic, on the other hand, makes more sense in my book.


The character isn't trying to make anyone to fall in love with him, it just happens on its own. But I guess the Diplomacy DC might be a good benchmark for the minimum Charisma you'd need. That would make a minimum of 50 Cha about right.

Quite frankly, it seems like I misinterpreted the intend of the thread a bit. But at the same time, I think I agree with the above two posters in that this doesn't seem like a high charisma thing, but an outright supernatural ability that inflicts charm person on any compatable target that looks at the character in question.

If you have trouble with enforcing the mechanic by homebrewing or copying such an ability, then consider me curious how a demon is supposed to push the character into above 50 Cha. Even a Wish can only bring it up 5 points, so you'd be looking at dm fiat or epic magic (which is basically dm fiat anyway).

[Erik Vale]

Charm person is the effect of an love elixer, charm person sets people to helpful [I think].

As such, I'd have anyone who looks at him be effected as Charm Monster, possibly with a permanent duration, with the standard save DC. [Which would be 10+1/2HD+Cha.]

[Coidzor]

Charm person is the effect of an love elixer, charm person sets people to helpful [I think].

As such, I'd have anyone who looks at him be effected as Charm Monster, possibly with a permanent duration, with the standard save DC. [Which would be 10+1/2HD+Cha.]

Nope, just Friendly. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm) But the caster gets a one-off opposed Charisma check to get them to do things they would never ordinarily do, other than commit suicide, per thing they'd never do.

To always beat most people's charisma checks, even on a 1, you'd need a modifier to beat a 20 rolled by someone with a 12 or 14 charisma, maybe 16 charisma to represent the high-end of normal, depending. So that's a total 22, 23, or 24 to get on a nat 1. So a +21 to +23 Cha, so a Charisma score of 52 to 56.

[Crake]

Nope, just Friendly. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/charmPerson.htm) But the caster gets a one-off opposed Charisma check to get them to do things they would never ordinarily do, other than commit suicide, per thing they'd never do.

To always beat most people's charisma checks, even on a 1, you'd need a modifier to beat a 20 rolled by someone with a 12 or 14 charisma, maybe 16 charisma to represent the high-end of normal, depending. So that's a total 22, 23, or 24 to get on a nat 1. So a +21 to +23 Cha, so a Charisma score of 52 to 56.

or just surge of fortune for a natural 20

[The Insanity]

What is your definition of love? A decade old marriage? Generally, the feeling of love at first sight tends to by quite extreme. Different people might not respond in the same way to this concept (few rarely respond the same way with any concept), but it's quite apt to say a jolt of "love" is similar to a fanatic's devotion, if for a lesser duration.
In regards to something that has been actually studied and isn't just a concept, the first few weeks and even months of a relationship has the couple basically drowning in hormones that limit inhibitions and do most anything for the other's attention. This is essentially the "heated love" stage as I call it. Or the "love sick" stage.
In D&D terms, women gain the Helpful attitude towards the character. The rest depends on the girl. Some might want to bone him, some might just be very nice to him, some might go tsundere mode, some might get obsessed, etc.


-And generally, I'd say this is really only possible en masse through magic compulsion...or if you are Justin Beiber... because it's essentially impossible through sheer force of will.
In this case, it is.


If your idea is to have them find this guy exceptionally attractive, or of particular note, then it would not be fanatic, and would be helpful, or at least, disturbed. If it's not a one-off spell, the it would be a distracting presence, and it would keep those who saved from being at ease, likely initiating a type of hostility towards him.
What save?


Anyway, charisma employs much more than attractiveness alone.
Didn't say otherwise.


So, just adding raw charisma bonuses wouldn't be exactly appropriate for what you are describing.
Good, because that's not what I'm doing.


Not to mention, a diplomacy check can't be made if you don't talk to them, automatically causing you to fail by not even trying....because it is based on your ability to manipulating people to like you.
I'm not using the Diplomacy skill.


But you're the DM, and it's unlikely you "need" to stat that ability. Just say it happens.
Like I said, that's what I'm doing. :smallconfused:


Give your players a chance to save of course, but for all other purposes, you have full say as to what happens.
Too late, the PC, who is the she-devil, already loves him. :smalltongue:


Not sure I'd equate helpful with being in love. Fanatic, on the other hand, makes more sense in my book.
Helpful means "Will take risks to help you". That sounds like something that a lover would do. A person in true love might display the properties of a Fanatic attitude, but that doesn't mean all lovers would die for each other. Whatever the girls feel towards the character, I wouldn't call that "true love". More like a crush or something like that.



If you have trouble with enforcing the mechanic by homebrewing or copying such an ability, then consider me curious how a demon is supposed to push the character into above 50 Cha. Even a Wish can only bring it up 5 points, so you'd be looking at dm fiat or epic magic (which is basically dm fiat anyway).
Devil. And I have no trouble, because there is no mechanic. Also, I never let rules spoil a good idea for a game. So yeah, it's DM fiat.

[sideswipe]

don't know if it has been said but if the devil has fallen in love with him (i took that from the OP) then i would play on that as much as possible, and continue to stay with her and treat her nicely and eventually try and get her to give up ownership of his soul as a present between lovers. she may eventually agree. then its just free charisma.

[Coidzor]

In D&D terms, women gain the Helpful attitude towards the character. The rest depends on the girl. Some might want to bone him, some might just be very nice to him, some might go tsundere mode, some might get obsessed, etc.

What? :smallconfused: No way. Tsundere mode isn't Helpful. It's probably its own special category if anything.