Bloodstorm Blade & Improved Grab

[Keegan__D]

Who'd have thought that confusion could arise from 3.5 grapple rules and treating thrown weapon attacks as melee attacks? ¬.¬

Sources
The text for Thunderous Throw can be found on page 101 of Tome of Battle.
The Flying weapon enhancement referred to in this instance is found in Magic of Faerun, on page 140. The key point in the relevant question would be the animated object aspect.
For the sake of this line of questioning, we'll assume that the character has gained Improved Grab from the Bear Spirit Totem barbarian from Complete Champion, which just gives "improved grab ability (MM 310)".

If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required.

Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a -20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents.

A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text).

When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight.

Questions (not all pertaining to Thunderous Throw)
If one throws a weapon and initiates a grapple from the attack, does the weapon stay where the creature was? Or does it return with the creature?
If one wishes to maintain the grapple with the initiating weapon, taking the -20 penalty (or less with the multigrab and greater multigrab feats), and the weapon is not in their possession, what happens?
If one has the flying enhancement on the weapon, does your brain hurt? does the weapon use its own grapple modifier in any situation?
Regarding the third paragraph of Improved Grab: Armor spikes state that succeeding in a grapple check results in dealing damage with the armor spikes. Do these rules supersede those, or exist alongside them, dealing both the initiating weapon damage and armor spike damage?
If the answer to the above question is both, if one initiates with armor spikes, does it deal the damage twice?

[Deophaun]

If one throws a weapon and initiates a grapple from the attack, does the weapon stay where the creature was? Or does it return with the creature?
There is nothing in Improved Grab that would indicate either of these. Instead, the weapon would behave as it would without the grapple. If you were using it with Blood Wind Ricochet, for example, the weapon would continue to the next enemy.

If one wishes to maintain the grapple with the initiating weapon, taking the -20 penalty (or less with the multigrab and greater multigrab feats), and the weapon is not in their possession, what happens?
Technically, I don't think it's possible by RAW, because Improved Grab states "The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent." Since you used no part of your body in the grapple, that may not apply. However, it may be reasonable to allow the use of the body part that threw the weapon to maintain a grapple.

If one has the flying enhancement on the weapon, does your brain hurt? does the weapon use its own grapple modifier in any situation?
A flying weapon while flying is an animated object, under your orders but still a separate creature (unless I'm looking at an outdated version). So while it can be ordered to grapple on its own, it doesn't work with Improved Grab at all.

Regarding the third paragraph of Improved Grab: Armor spikes state that succeeding in a grapple check results in dealing damage with the armor spikes. Do these rules supersede those, or exist alongside them, dealing both the initiating weapon damage and armor spike damage?
I believe they would deal damage along with the initiating weapon. Although this gets into the question about what is a more specific rule: armor spikes or Improved Grab. The mention of Constrict as an exception Improved Grab may mean Improved Grab is more specific.

If the answer to the above question is both, if one initiates with armor spikes, does it deal the damage twice?
Yes.

[Keegan__D]

There is nothing in Improved Grab that would indicate either of these. Instead, the weapon would behave as it would without the grapple. If you were using it with Blood Wind Ricochet, for example, the weapon would continue to the next enemy.
Should one not be using abilities like Blood Wind Ricochet, or be able to carry out commands (as a Flying weapon) what would the weapon do then, if not fall to the ground?


I believe they would deal damage along with the initiating weapon. Although this gets into the question about what is a more specific rule: armor spikes or Improved Grab. The mention of Constrict as an exception Improved Grab may mean Improved Grab is more specific.
I'm unclear on this answer, as I am unfamiliar with the specificness of rules.

[Deophaun]

Should one not be using abilities like Blood Wind Ricochet, or be able to carry out commands (as a Flying weapon) what would the weapon do then, if not fall to the ground?
If you were just to throw it without anything like the returning property, then I believe it would fall to the ground in the square where it triggered the grapple, because Improved Grab doesn't say that it affects the weapon at all. Since it doesn't say, the weapon behaves as normal.

I'm unclear on this answer, as I am unfamiliar with the specificness of rules.
For determining rule priority, you go with the more specific rule over the general. Normally, this is easy: The general rule is you get one AoO a round. A more specific rule is that characters with Combat Reflexes get an additional number of AoOs equal to their Dex modifier. But, sometimes this is not so easy: You can avoid AoOs using Tumble/Thicket of Blades lets you make AoOs on movement that normally wouldn't provoke.

So basically, this is firmly in the "ask the DM" territory.