Mystic theurge/monk

[Shadowscale]

Using feats and flaws, would it be possible to make a level 20 character with one or two levels of monk and the rest being a sorcerer/favored soul mystic theurge? I'm trying to play to the flavor of a charisma caster with all the feats monk one and two add. Anyway to make this higher than tier 5?

[Spore]

This starts off at the bottom (too many classes) and climbs into between T2 and T1. It's a wild ride from start to finish so to speak.

[Shadowscale]

This starts off at the bottom (too many classes) and climbs into between T2 and T1. It's a wild ride from start to finish so to speak.

How would you suggest pimping it out given feats and flaws etc? Would you need a high wisdom score? I really want to play this, yet I really want to make it work while utilizing these specific classes.

[Spore]

I am terrible at 3.5 optimizing and okayish at Pathfinder optimizing. Given the ludicrous amount of ACFs in 3.5 can't you just pick the monk abilities in exchange for something else your classes provide? What are you exactly after? A gish? Full caster with superior defenses? Do you wish to portray a certain flavor of fluff?

[Gray Mage]

Does it have to be a theurge? It's possible to mix monk and a casting class and have a good result (mostly because casting is awesome), but mixing a handicap like theurge on top of it (you're already a few spell levels behind, with theurge on top of it....) it's trickier.

[Shadowscale]

Does it have to be a theurge? It's possible to mix monk and a casting class and have a good result (mostly because casting is awesome), but mixing a handicap like theurge on top of it (you're already a few spell levels behind, with theurge on top of it....) it's trickier.

The goal is 6th to 7th spells in both types of spells.
i don't want to be god, I more want to be viable and diverse.

[d20familiar]

The goal is 6th to 7th spells in both types of spells.

You may find Sharn race interesting (IC build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16451172&postcount=269)).

[Shadowscale]

You may find Sharn race interesting (IC build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=16451172&postcount=269)).

Interesting, I was trying to go a little more human-like though. Crazy how it has casting of both those classes though.

[sideswipe]

warning! impending cheese approaching

favoured soul 1/ sorcerer 1/ monk 2/ bard 1/mystic theurge 10/ fochluchan lyrist 5

monk (because you wanted it) else i would drop it for 9th level spells, you could replace this entirely with items that grant feats and increase damage with a monks belt.

bard 1 for bardic music and knowledge prerequisites. you also pump all skill points into sleight of hand and knowledge nature. get druidic this level with speak language by finding a blighter and getting him to teach you.

ring of evasion for evasion.

cross class ranks galore, but you can take skills in each class as much as you can as class skills, play human, you get definitely enough skill points across all your levels to get into fochluchan lyrist. and you are very focused on cha.

you get a total of 10 feats (4 at first level with flaws) as a human (not including monk bonus feats) i would take, versitile spellcaster, able learner, heighten spell possibly lost tradition to key ALL your favoured soul casting from CHA instead of most, level 3 is kung fu genious, you qualify for mystic theurge.

after that it doesn't really matter as you will qualify through clever skill point spending for fochluchan lyrist. so you end up with 8th level spells in each class and the two monk levels you wanted.

if you don't take monk you can SQUEEZE in enough to get dual 9ths.

[Shadowscale]

warning! impending cheese approaching

favoured soul 1/ sorcerer 1/ monk 2/ bard 1/mystic theurge 10/ fochluchan lyrist 5

monk (because you wanted it) else i would drop it for 9th level spells, you could replace this entirely with items that grant feats and increase damage with a monks belt.

bard 1 for bardic music and knowledge prerequisites. you also pump all skill points into sleight of hand and knowledge nature. get druidic this level with speak language by finding a blighter and getting him to teach you.

ring of evasion for evasion.

cross class ranks galore, but you can take skills in each class as much as you can as class skills, play human, you get definitely enough skill points across all your levels to get into fochluchan lyrist. and you are very focused on cha.

you get a total of 10 feats (4 at first level with flaws) as a human (not including monk bonus feats) i would take, versitile spellcaster, able learner, heighten spell possibly lost tradition to key ALL your favoured soul casting from CHA instead of most, level 3 is kung fu genious, you qualify for mystic theurge.

after that it doesn't really matter as you will qualify through clever skill point spending for fochluchan lyrist. so you end up with 8th level spells in each class and the two monk levels you wanted.

if you don't take monk you can SQUEEZE in enough to get dual 9ths.

I am extremely tempted to do this exact build, even with only duel 8th level spells in say a 20th level campaign would I still be fairly decent and fill a role with this build in your opinion? Like what tier would you say this is at aiming for 2nd or 3rd.

[malonkey1]

warning! impending cheese approaching

favoured soul 1/ sorcerer 1/ monk 2/ bard 1/mystic theurge 10/ fochluchan lyrist 5

monk (because you wanted it) else i would drop it for 9th level spells, you could replace this entirely with items that grant feats and increase damage with a monks belt.

bard 1 for bardic music and knowledge prerequisites. you also pump all skill points into sleight of hand and knowledge nature. get druidic this level with speak language by finding a blighter and getting him to teach you.

ring of evasion for evasion.

cross class ranks galore, but you can take skills in each class as much as you can as class skills, play human, you get definitely enough skill points across all your levels to get into fochluchan lyrist. and you are very focused on cha.

you get a total of 10 feats (4 at first level with flaws) as a human (not including monk bonus feats) i would take, versitile spellcaster, able learner, heighten spell possibly lost tradition to key ALL your favoured soul casting from CHA instead of most, level 3 is kung fu genious, you qualify for mystic theurge.

after that it doesn't really matter as you will qualify through clever skill point spending for fochluchan lyrist. so you end up with 8th level spells in each class and the two monk levels you wanted.

if you don't take monk you can SQUEEZE in enough to get dual 9ths.

Unless you're using the Precocious Apprentice/Alternate Source Spell trick, you're not getting into Mystic Theurge without 3 levels of either Sorcerer and Favored Soul (only one if you have Alt Source, both without), and to do that, you would have to take Sorcerer as your first level. And I believe there's a feat for Cha to Monk AC, I would recommend that you take it.

[Chronos]

Mystic Theurge, especially on a sorcerer/favored soul base, will not make you more versatile. Spontaneous spellcasters both require 4th level before they can get to 2nd level spells, which means you'll be two full spell levels behind in each of your casting classes, compared to sticking with just one of them. There's a lot more versatility in higher-level spells from one class than there is in lower-level spells from two classes. The issue becomes even more significant if you're also burning two levels on monk.

That said, if you're bound and determined to make this work, you'll want to be illumian, with the Krau sigil and the Improved Sigil feat. That'll let you heighten two spells by one level each, and thus meet the spellcasting requirements for Mystic Theurge after one level in each class. If you insist on also adding monk, then be sure to take the Ascetic Mage feat, to change your monk AC bonus to Charisma instead of Wis.

Sideswipe, your build doesn't qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist, since you don't have the druidic language. Strictly speaking, you can get around this by using Hellbred as your race (I think Spellscale might also do it, though I'm not sure).

[malonkey1]

If you insist on also adding monk, then be sure to take the Ascetic Mage feat, to change your monk AC bonus to Charisma instead of Wis

Ascetic Mage, that was what I was thinking of. Thank you.

[sideswipe]

Sideswipe, your build doesn't qualify for Fochlucan Lyrist, since you don't have the druidic language. Strictly speaking, you can get around this by using Hellbred as your race (I think Spellscale might also do it, though I'm not sure).



bard 1 for bardic music and knowledge prerequisites. you also pump all skill points into sleight of hand and knowledge nature. get druidic this level with speak language by finding a blighter and getting him to teach you.



bold for emphasis. i didn't say it was elegant, no cheese ever is. thats why its cheese.


Unless you're using the Precocious Apprentice/Alternate Source Spell trick, you're not getting into Mystic Theurge without 3 levels of either Sorcerer and Favored Soul (only one if you have Alt Source, both without), and to do that, you would have to take Sorcerer as your first level. And I believe there's a feat for Cha to Monk AC, I would recommend that you take it.

it has long been the general opinion that using heighten spell you can make a first level spell count as a second and with versatile spellcaster you use two 1st level slots to cast the second level spell.

the exact wording from SRD. (bold for emphasis)

Heighten Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

so yes, you qualify for mystic theurge by being able to trade 2 1st level spells from your spontaneous classes into a 2nd level slot and use that to cast a heightened 1st level spell which now for absolutely all purposes is now a second level spell. including for the qualification of mystic theurge, in fact it is better RAI then using precocious apprentice as it technically requires multiple by the use of a plural and precocious only allows one. you have to use the monday tuesday interpretation for it to work, whereas this i can use many times.



so yes, get a pissed off blighter to teach you druidic and cheese that would give you a DMG to the head at most tables and you get dual 9ths, (8 in this build because monk, but i would drop them and just get a monks belt).


I am extremely tempted to do this exact build, even with only duel 8th level spells in say a 20th level campaign would I still be fairly decent and fill a role with this build in your opinion? Like what tier would you say this is at aiming for 2nd or 3rd.

you would fill a role any dual caster plays, except that you would have to choose your spells carefully, since you have your 9th, 12th 15th and 18th level feats available you can go any way you want. i would consider going battle field control and pick some very versatile utility spells.
possibly get a custom runestaff as your ancestral relic at 9th level. this will give you many more "spells known" as a sorcerer in the way it can have spells in it. every time you level you can choose new spells.

you could focus on buffing yourself and going combat gish, take quicken spell and buff yourself using low level buffs. (this isn't a great idea but its still useful)

if you want more metamagic take a couple feats as reducers, for example if you wanted to go blaster you could take a couple of necromancy cleric spells and the feat undead battery (i think) that allows you to drain HD from undead and use the HD to decrease metamagic cost entirely. there is a cap on how many dice you can have at one time i think. also easy metamagic and stuff.

essentially look at the rest of the party and think what do they need, if they have a couple damage dealers then ply BFC. if they have no damage play blaster. if they have most things then go nuts on what you want, but spell selection is key here.

you can use eternal wands and stuff like that to increase your equivalent spells per day.

(don't play healer, just take the one spell heal)

[(Un)Inspired]

Would you be okay with different classes that achieve the same sort of character ?

A factotum 3/monk 2/chameleon 10/factotum 5 gets 6th level arcane and divine spells from any list and can rock Cha skills pretty hard (even if they're not casting using it). They can monk it up quite well with huge unarmed AC and unarmed damage and physical skills.

[sideswipe]

Would you be okay with different classes that achieve the same sort of character ?

A factotum 3/monk 2/chameleon 10/factotum 5 gets 6th level arcane and divine spells from any list and can rock Cha skills pretty hard (even if they're not casting using it). They can monk it up quite well with huge unarmed AC and unarmed damage and physical skills.

this combines well with the monk build i mentioned in another thread, use passive way decisive strike invisible fist monk 2,

this build will get you dual 6ths casting, and will get you doing some serious damage with the use of decisive strike and extra attacks.

[Rebel7284]

Sublime Chord can pick up sorcerer/wizard spells and casts them spontaneously off of charisma...

So Bard 1/Monk 2/Favored Soul 7/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9 works. You need alternate spell source to qualify.

However, at this point, you may as well be a hellbred and replace Mystic Theurge with Fochluchan Lyrist.

Also note that Monk 2 gives evasion without needing a ring of evasion. xD

If early entry is allowed and you want actual sorcerer class, you can do something like:

Monk 2/Sorcerer 1/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Hold Warden 3/Arcane Heirophant 3

Use Versatile Spellcaster + Highten Spell to qualify.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Mystic theurge is the weakest theurge class. There are better ones, especially for druids, because druids rock.

For a Fochluchan monk, illumian bard 1/druid 1/monk 2/mystic theurge 6/fochluchan lyrist 10.

Gets you 17th level bard and druid casting and 14 base attack, or 16 with fractional, plus 12th level bardic music and lore. Monk gives you the evasion required for fochluchan, which makes it slightly less of a waste than normal (since you save two feats).

Alternatively, illumian bard 1/druid 5/monk 2/arcane hierophant X/fochluchan lyrist Y.

You lose four bard caster levels, but arcane hierophant advances your wild shape, for 17th level druid casting, 13th level bard casting and up to 15th level wild shape. If you want 16+ base attack, you basically need to use fractional bonuses (those bard and monk dips hurt otherwise), and take at least 4 levels of fochluchan lyrist. You can technically drop two levels of druid and still qualify for arcane hierophant, but that costs you your wild shape.

If you're not going for bard/fochluchan, you can go illumian sorcerer 1/druid 5/monk 2/arcane hierophant 12

You get 17th level druid casting, and 13th level sorcerer casting, with 17th level wild shape and 13 base attack (14.75 with fractional). Ask your DM about extending arcane hierophant's progression pre-epic.

Finally, if you really want the sorcerer/favoured soul theurge, try illumian paladin 2/monk 2/sorcerer 1/favoured soul 1/mystic theurge 14.

You lose lots of caster levels, but that probably was going to happen anyway. 15th level casting for both sides, charisma to saves and AC (with Ascetic Mage), 10 base attack (11.75 with fractional).

Incidentally, if you want to run any of the druid builds (especially fochluchan-based, as that has full bab) as tankier gish, you can add a two-level dip into paladin with the Serenity feat, moving your divine grace to wisdom (because you have wis to AC, from monk, and wisdom-based druid casting). Ascetic Knight will increase your unarmed strike damage, but so slightly as not to be worth it.


Edit: As illumian, you qualify for the theurgic classes through the improved krau sigil feat.

[Shadowscale]

Sublime Chord can pick up sorcerer/wizard spells and casts them spontaneously off of charisma...

So Bard 1/Monk 2/Favored Soul 7/Sublime Chord 1/Mystic Theurge 9 works. You need alternate spell source to qualify.

However, at this point, you may as well be a hellbred and replace Mystic Theurge with Fochluchan Lyrist.

Also note that Monk 2 gives evasion without needing a ring of evasion. xD

If early entry is allowed and you want actual sorcerer class, you can do something like:

Monk 2/Sorcerer 1/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Hold Warden 3/Arcane Heirophant 3

Use Versatile Spellcaster + Highten Spell to qualify.
Monk 2/Sorcerer 1/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Hold Warden 3/Arcane Heirophant 3
seems nice, what feats would I need to take? If I were human how many flaws and such would I need? Is Heirophant legal without druid levels?

[sideswipe]

Monk 2/Sorcerer 1/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Hold Warden 3/Arcane Heirophant 3
seems nice, what feats would I need to take? If I were human how many flaws and such would I need? Is Heirophant legal without druid levels?

you cannot qualify for holt warden as you cannot cast the required plant domain spells.

[Shadowscale]

you cannot qualify for holt warden as you cannot cast the required plant domain spells.
I'd assume the methods that grant an extra domain wouldn't let you just choose something like plant domain right? I think I remember reading in like dramononicon a feat that gives define casters another domain, favored soul wasn't listed, yet like paladin and ranger had to pick from a strict list.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Monk 2/Sha'ir 7/Skypledged 10/(anything advancing casting) 1 gets you every sorcerer/wizard spell ever published, as well as every cleric and druid spell in the PHB (and you can potentially argue that into any cleric or druid spell), except for spells with the earth, fire, or water descriptors. No cheese, no funky readings of the rules, no questions asked. (The Sha'ir is I think the only class with full 9th level casting that natively counts as both an arcane and divine caster. You could also potentially use it to qualify for Mystic Theurge with only a single splash in a divine caster). The one downside is you have to be a Raptoran, though racial restrictions are probably the easiest to argue away. The (Ex) flight can be picked up by playing a Silverbrow Human with the Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings feats.



Shai'r-- Dragon Magazine Compendium
Skypledged-- Races of the Wild
Silverbrow Human-- Dragon Magic
(Improved) Dragon Wings-- Races of the Dragon

[malonkey1]

you cannot qualify for holt warden as you cannot cast the required plant domain spells.

Take them as your Favored Soul spells known where possible, otherwise take them as Sorcerer Spells and cast them as divine with Alternate Source Spell.

[sideswipe]

Take them as your Favored Soul spells known where possible, otherwise take them as Sorcerer Spells and cast them as divine with Alternate Source Spell.

you need entangle, its a druid, ranger and domain spell. you would need to be able to access the plant domain as i was looking for a while to find a cleric or sorcerer version of the spell. thats the first hurdle i saw. even imarvintpa couldnt find anyone else that cast it.

unless you get the first 3 domain spells its a no go im afraid.

[malonkey1]

you need entangle, its a druid, ranger and domain spell. you would need to be able to access the plant domain as i was looking for a while to find a cleric or sorcerer version of the spell. thats the first hurdle i saw. even imarvintpa couldnt find anyone else that cast it.

unless you get the first 3 domain spells its a no go im afraid.

Arcane Disciple (Plant) + Alternate Source Spell = all three in one go.

[Rebel7284]

or a level of contemplative and just get the domain. That costs you another sorcerer level, but saves the feats.

[sideswipe]

Arcane Disciple (Plant) + Alternate Source Spell = all three in one go.

still prefer my dual 8th build. but if you can squeeze in your build and he doesn't mind druid instead then its a good build.

[Shadowscale]

still prefer my dual 8th build. but if you can squeeze in your build and She doesn't mind druid instead then its a good build.

I do like your build as well, how would you do feats for it? Human with flaws should knock out a bunch of them.

[sideswipe]

I do like your build as well, how would you do feats for it? Human with flaws should knock out a bunch of them.

as the favoured soul 1/ sorcerer 1/ monk 2/bard 1 / mystic theurge x/ focuhluchan lyrist (FL) x
( take mystic theurge until you have the skills to qualify for fochluchan lyrist, then take that as soon as possible)

take the ring of evasion, monk gets you evasion but i would trade it for invisible fist.

feats as a human,
human - versitile spellcaster
1st - heighten spell
flaw - able learner (cross class skills always cost 1pt but max ranks remain the same, needed for the huge skill prerequisites for FL, so as soon as you get a class with a skill that FL needs you can pump points into it, you will need all the skill points you can get).
flaw - lost tradition (favoured soul charisma) - this means you don't need wisdom at all. since favoured soul still relies on it a bit. you will use charisma for all your casting instead of most of it.
3rd - (after reading an improvement in the thread) Ascetic Mage - this gives you charisma instead of wisdom to AC. so you can dump wisdom (and have just enough int for skill requirements). you can also sacrifice spells for bonuses to strikes but thats not really useful.
6th - this depends on what you want to achieve, but i would really suggest ancestral relic (custom runestaff). this gives you basicly a large amount of spells in your staff (acting a little like extra spells known for your sorcerer). and you can change the spells in it each time you level up!
9th - if you are going blaster in any way then take something to reduce metamagic, and take a metamagic feat with 12th, another reducer at 15th and another meta at 18th. i canr recommend anything unless you tell me what you actually want to do.
if you go battle field control you can take various feats which improve what you do.

if you are looking at fighting and using your spells to boost your fighting then i would take persist spell, and undead battery as two feats for 9th and 12th. use undead HD drained from undead to reduce metamagic costs, you can hold 1 point per CHA mod. (lol) so you can use your favoured soul spells to make/summon/control some undead and then drain 6HD, persist a spell, rinse and repeat until you have persisted all spells for the day you need. if you ever find some undead, control them and get them to jump in a portable hole. then you can drain as you need them. they don't need air or food.

you can only really use this at the beginning of the day and with persist. points dissipate 1pt per 10 mins so you cant store all day.

so tell me what you want to do and i will help you with more feats.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You still don't have Druidic as a language with that build. Hardly a terrible crime, but some DMs will not like it. Same with ring of evasion - that doesn't qualify for prestige classes, imo (allowing it makes me really want to enforce the 'lose prerequisites - lose features' rule, then steal/dispel/disjoin that ring), so no trading out evasion.

If you can convince your DM that harmonious knight 1 (paladin sub level) qualifies as bardic music, which is about as far as a stretch as the above, add a paladin 2 dip instead of bard.

[sideswipe]

You still don't have Druidic as a language with that build. Hardly a terrible crime, but some DMs will not like it. Same with ring of evasion - that doesn't qualify for prestige classes, imo (allowing it makes me really want to enforce the 'lose prerequisites - lose features' rule, then steal/dispel/disjoin that ring), so no trading out evasion.

If you can convince your DM that harmonious knight 1 (paladin sub level) qualifies as bardic music, which is about as far as a stretch as the above, add a paladin 2 dip instead of bard.

i will not explain it again after this. learn to read the thread please, this is the third time i have said it.

during the level of bard (any point really but it makes the most sense) you get a pissed of blighter to teach you druidic.

when i originally posted the build i said it was cheesey, but he still liked it. i thought about it in advance but no one can seem to read.

druids are not the only ones who know druidic. it can be taught. it is just suggested that druids will only teach druids. blighters probably go around offering to pay to teach it. since the penalty is to be hunted and killed by druids and they already are being hunted and killed by druids. its not far fetched.

also i cant be asked to look right now but it is a rules as written thing that Items DEFINITELY qualify you for prestige classes. just most DM's (including me) would not allow it. and yes if you drop the ring you lose everything.

[sideswipe]

here, to prove a point.

Complete Warrior p16:

Meeting Class Requirements: It's possible for a character to take levels in a prestige class and later be in a position where the character no longer qualifies to be a member of the class. An alignment change, levels lost because of character death, or the loss of a magic item that granted an important ability are examples of events that can make a character ineligible to advance farther in a prestige class.

If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, he or she loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided.

[LTwerewolf]

If you want versatility plus monkitude why not archivist, kung fu genius, and some sacred fist?

[sideswipe]

If you want versatility plus monkitude why not archivist, kung fu genius, and some sacred fist?

what i love about this is you are basicly a single class dual/tri/ even more caster.

you get full cleric, eventually full access to the druid, paladin ranger (ahem runescared beserker, adept, divine bard :smallwink:) lists too.

[LTwerewolf]

what i love about this is you are basicly a single class dual/tri/ even more caster.

you get full cleric, eventually full access to the druid, paladin ranger (ahem runescared beserker, adept, divine bard :smallwink:) lists too.

The idea behind it is that it's as powerful or weak as you want it to be, so it can fit into any op group.

[Chronos]

Quoth sideswipe:

here, to prove a point.

Complete Warrior p16:
Fochlucan Lyrist isn't from Complete Warrior.

[Ruethgar]

Remember that Mystic Theurge is the best theurge class because you can qualify for it with a few knowledge checks (www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/testBasedPrerequisites.htm#mysticTheurge). For the monk part, you can use the poor wording of the Dragon 334 styles to snag one of those for free as long as you have one of the normal styles already four feats for two levels in monk makes it even more dipalicious. So Monk 2/Sorcerer 1/Favored Soul 1/Mystic Theurge 10/Legacy Champion 6. That's 8th level spells plus four(generally poor) monk feats or two of your choice.

[sideswipe]

Fochlucan Lyrist isn't from Complete Warrior.

so what you are saying is because it is only printed in that book that means if you qualify and then lose the prerequisites to any other prestige class in any other book ever you don't lose the benefits of the class....

good logic.

[Zubrowka74]

...If you're not going for bard/fochluchan, you can go illumian sorcerer 1/druid 5/monk 2/arcane hierophant 12
(...)
Finally, if you really want the sorcerer/favoured soul theurge, try illumian paladin 2/monk 2/sorcerer 1/favoured soul 1/mystic theurge 14.

I'd really like to know what ungodly cheese enables this!

[ExLibrisMortis]

As I said in my post, talk to your DM, as it's not explicitly available pre-epic and therefore not RAW (and not immediately cheese, but a houserule). You can extend prestige class progressions past level 10, just like base classes extend beyond 20, under epic rules. You could ask your DM to allow these progressions before level 20. In the case of prestige classes like mystic theurge, eldritch knight, and also fochluchan lyrist and arcane hierophant, the class features are very clear in how they progress. In the first three cases, there simply are no own class features, and you only progress features you already had (entry requirements, basically). For arcane hierophant, you need to adjudicate the channel animal/plant progression, but that shouldn't be too hard.

It's basically a 'fix' for the relatively low power/spell ratio of theurges: even if you enter early, to counter the loss of high-level spells a bit, you're going to be screwed over because there aren't enough theurgic classes to finish twenty levels (the problem doesn't come into play until level 14 at the earliest, of course). Except for druids, who can enter two general theurges, and druid/bard can enter three, and ur-priests only need the ten (well, eight theurge plus two ur-priest) levels to hit ninths.

Imagine an illumian wizard 2/archivist 1/mystic theurge 17. Way many spells. No incantatrix powers, no archmage fun, can't dweomerkeep to save his life. It sort of shows that: a) mystic theurge is a sad, sad class and 2) extending theurgic prestige classes isn't going to break your game any more than eight and ninth-level spells already do, unless you balance casters by attrition, which is hard to do (well).

[Chronos]

Quoth sideswipe:

so what you are saying is because it is only printed in that book that means if you qualify and then lose the prerequisites to any other prestige class in any other book ever you don't lose the benefits of the class....

good logic.
Well, not any other book. Complete Arcane also has a (different) rule about losing prerequisites for a prestige class. But for any other book, neither of those rules applies. Which is a good thing, because there are a fair number of prestige classes that cause you to lose their own prerequisites.