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Caduceus
2007-04-05, 07:04 AM
What's everyone's favorite Gestalt combos? What multitude of abilities would you like your character to have, and what interesting backstories would they have that led to their unique combination of skills?

I've always been fond of the Bardarian (Bard/Barbarian) simply for the idea of a hulking brute running around with a greataxe and singing jolly little songs as he bashes in the skulls of his enemies.

Also, Psychic Warrior/Druid is an interesting path, allowing you to infuse your natural weapons from Wild Shape with energy damage and poison. (Yes more Druid cheese.)

Swordsage/Rogue is a good one, too, as I'm finding out now. Using Desert Wind abilities for mobility along with Diamond Mind's precision in combination with the Rogue's sneak attack, and slinking away in the shadows with Shadow Hand.

So, what're your favorites?

Kurobara
2007-04-05, 07:36 AM
It's not the best of characters unless you're in a large party, because it lends itself most easily to healing and buffing, but I'm playing a Favored Soul//Bard (favored soul of a music goddess, naturally) right now and really like it. I could imagine it also working fairly well with Marshal instead of or combined with one side or the other.

Were-Sandwich
2007-04-05, 08:04 AM
I'm about to start playing a Skarn Egoist/Warblade. Should be interesting.

technomancer
2007-04-05, 08:08 AM
For me, it really depends on the game and what the other players have. Though, by default, I'd have to go with Fighter/Psychic Warrior, unless you rule that you don't get both sets of bonus feats, in which case, Rogue/Psychic Warrior.

Cleric (or Druid)/Monks are always good.

Jannex
2007-04-05, 08:12 AM
For a while now, I've been wanting to play a Bard/Paladin of Bahamut (thank you, Devoted Performer from Complete Adventurer). She'd be human, and wouldn't even need to go for anything silly like Dragon Disciple (though most of my friends would probably insist that it was obligatory). She'd do Dex-combat, sing, heal, and be generally personable--a little more laid-back than the stereotypical Paladin, and with Charisma coming out the ears. I think she'd be fun. I need to find an opportunity to play her.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-05, 10:15 AM
I'm a big, big fan of Totemist//Spirit Shaman There's a heavy amount of MAD in it (Str/Con/Wis/Cha, so no worse than a Paladin, really), but it's so terrifically flavored that I can't help myself. The Totemist interacts with the spirits of the world and takes on aspects of them into himself, while the Spirit Shaman deals with spirits and uses their powers.

I suppose one could do it with a Totemist//Druid too, but it wouldn't be the same to me.

Tellah
2007-04-05, 10:21 AM
I think the absolute überest combo is warblade/beguiler with a dex build, focusing on Diamond Mind maneuvers to make use of his mission-critical high concentration. Not particularly flavorful, though.

I'm currently playing a Talenta halfling barbarian/druid with an eye on the warshaper prestige class, and man is that a blast! Raging dinosaur with a dinosaur animal companion? Yes please!

By the by, does anyone know of a feat that would allow me to keep casting spells while raging?

Ramza00
2007-04-05, 10:41 AM
One of the Incarnum classes works real well on one side of gestalt. Incarnate allows you to boost melee damage, to hit, and/or ac, totemist allows you to add lots of natural weapons and boost their usefulness, soulborn is full bab and is good meleer by itself anyway. These benefits are "passive benefits" thus they work well with specialization since you can have Side A be your main focus, with Side B giving all the passive benefits and thus your two sides aren't competing for actions.


Incarnum Links
Incarnate by the Numbers (good thread to give you an idea on how this will boost your meleer damage and allows you to be a jack of all trades)
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=574633

Two good Totemist Threads
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=666169
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=789365

Soulborn Handbook
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=592729

Incarnum (all three manifesters) Tricks Combos Builds
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=530815

More soulmelds which were released in Dragon Magic and a Psionic Mind's Eye they are free as excerpts here
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/ex/20060912a%26page%3D4
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/psm/20060217a

Factotum should also work great for gestalt. 6 skill points, Reflex Save, d8 hitpoints, good abilties based off int that are passive and work off inspiration points. Factotum gains inspiration points per encounter, and they refresh after every encounter similar to TOB. One of the abilities is giving an extra standard action per round (you get it at lvl 8) at the cost of 3 inspiration points. You have 5 inspiration points at lvl 8, 6 at lvl 11 and 10 at lvl 20.

its_all_ogre
2007-04-05, 10:44 AM
duskblade//spellthief. steal spells and then arcane channel them back at the guy you stole them from!
barbarian//scout for silly speed, druid//scout for same and all good saves, can you say tumbling crocodile?!!? or rhino!!
fighter//any class works too, so long as you can use those bonus feats well.
wizard/arcane trickster//rogue/fighter to grab a good mix bag!

Fax Celestis
2007-04-05, 11:04 AM
Duskblade//Spellthief would be a lot better if it didn't have MAD. Str/Dex/Con/Int/Cha. That's like the WORST MAD ever.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-05, 11:43 AM
Swordsage//Psion. Mind over matter, sword over throat. The mesh is surprisingly good.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-05, 11:50 AM
Warblade//Psion is better for Int-synergy.

Also Psychic Warrior//Swordsage is remarkably decent.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-05, 11:59 AM
I picked swordsage over warblade entirely because I'm a skill fiend, but warblade does have all those nifty abilities that are enhanced by a high intelligence. SS//P is thus like a rogue with surprisingly heavy spellcasting and martial prowess. Plus, the flavor's cooler than mixing it with wizard for the "ZOMG BROK'ORS!" casting.

Well... unless you pick up Jade Phoenix Mage. But that's too cheesy for me.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-05, 12:00 PM
True enough. That, and Swordsages get judo.

Latronis
2007-04-05, 12:22 PM
well last time i played in a gestalt game my partner wanted to do something with my races of destiny after it first came out, also some of the rules were relaxed because she wanted to use one of my npcs which ignored the no dual prcs in gestalt, was also a purely evil aligned game. So this was the party:

Half-Elf- Knight\\Marshal\Halfelf Paragon\Human Paragon\Outcast Champion

cohort- Half-Elf Ranger\Scar Enforcer\\Rogue\Thug\Assassin

Twas my character, actually i started with the cohort as they were at low levels, and the dm was getting a grip on gestalt with mostly dungeon crawls and the like. The country was a melting pot of cultures and a cesspit of corruption with a history of civil wars and eventual elven dominance over other races. She was a stealthy skill monkey--excluding face skills. She's out for herself, and herself alone, though she was anything if loyal, bad for business otherwise. She didn't always travel with the other 2 party members and ended up falling behind in level, on such foray she crossed paths with a minor noble who saw in her a way to get what he wanted and the failed assassination left her indentured to him. Enter my real character who was something of a local hero with the half-breeds, he was charismatic and had made something of a name for himself, with his new cohort linking him to some seedier factions indirectly he managed to convince the halfbreed population they were being downtrodden and lead a revolt againest there elven 'opressors' eventually winning for them a city of there own, which with the tyrant that made it happen now in a position of real power raised and trained a real army to conquer the rest of the land.

Role: Face, also tough with a d12 and pretty damn good saves, nonmagical battlefield control and party pumping via auras and abilities.

Noteable Feat was Sleeping with the DM, until she discovered that losing the prerequisite meant the loss of the feat >:-(

Sharakim- Wizard\Eldritch Knight\\Fighter\Arcane Archer

Full caster, Full BaB lot of utility spells and battlefield control, there was a lot of big battlefield situations she favoured the arcane archer after playing NWN, and was allowed to ignore the inane racial restriction with my intervention on her behalf after her sister(the DM) wanted her to use something from RoD.

Illumian Half (Black) Dragon- Favoured Soul\Mystic Theurge\\Sorcerer\HalfDragon(SS)\HalfDragon Paragon\Dragon(black for obvious reasons) Samurai.

Buffing, especially herself, and healing before tearing into everything with fang, talon and lots and lots of acid. Shes the youngun' she likes dragons and doesnt like the vancian system so i pointed her in a few directions and explained somethings and thats the mess she ended up with.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-05, 12:31 PM
Noteable Feat was Sleeping with the DM, until she discovered that losing the prerequisite meant the loss of the feat >:-(

...is that feat in the BoEF?

Draz74
2007-04-05, 12:35 PM
Druid//Ninja.

Beguiler//Swashbuckler/Duelist.

Knight//Favored Soul.

Latronis
2007-04-05, 12:41 PM
...is that feat in the BoEF?

It might have been, i don't remember where i saw it

Was something along the lines of Once a day you may change the DM's decision based on the fact that you are sleeping with the DM.

You can only take this feat if you are, in fact, sleeping with the DM.

Being a male i dont get to take it too often, and once i did get too. Major backfire

Amiria
2007-04-05, 12:44 PM
I remember a feat with a slightly different name (replace 'sleeping' with another verb) in the Munchkin D20 PHB.

Latronis
2007-04-05, 12:50 PM
wouldnt happen to be a generally banned verb would it?

I'm pretty sure it actually was sleeping, but maybe not

Amiria
2007-04-05, 12:52 PM
It was the verb that is in the title of the second Austin Powers movie.

Latronis
2007-04-05, 12:57 PM
Which also happens to be a type of carpet >_<

okpokalypse
2007-04-05, 01:37 PM
I like taking a Monster Progression with Templates with one of my Gestalt Classes... A fun one is...

Sainted Half-Celestial Feral Werebear (Natural) Paladin 4 (ECL 20) / Favored Soul 20

Total Racial / Template Stat Bonuses:
+24 Str, +2 Dex, +16 Con, +10 Wis, -2 Int, +8 Cha

Other Template Bonuses:
d10 HD, Large Size, +10' Move, +7 Nat AC & Natural Flight (100')
Insight AC Bonus equal to Wisdom Mod
Gains Pounce, Rake & Rend.
Damage Reduction 10 / Evil and Magic, Spell Resistance 30
Fast Healing 10, Immunities: Acid, Cold, Electricity, Petrification, Disease
Fire Resistance (10), +8 Save v. Poison
+2 to all Save DCs
Holy Touch (+1d6 Holy Damage / Attack)

Gain extra spells via feats to get Bite of the Werebear (+16 Str, Enhance) & Giant Size (+32 Str, Size) and you've got a PC who's got 80+ Strength, 40+ on every save (Divine Grace via Pally), 60+ AC, Flight, Colossal Size & Reach and a rediculous amount of Resistances / Immunities. Oh yeah, and he's got about > 400 HP as well.

Draz74
2007-04-05, 01:46 PM
I like taking a Monster Progression with Templates with one of my Gestalt Classes... A fun one is...

Sainted Half-Celestial Feral Werebear (Natural) Paladin 4 (ECL 20) / Favored Soul 20


I've always loved the Nymph for gestalting. Mind, I'm of the interperetation that LA, in Gestalt, affects both "sides" of the character -- but gets divided in half, rounded down. So my Nymph comes out something like:

Nymph (ECL 20): Fey 6 / Rogue 11 // Favored Soul 17

Feel free to replace "Favored Soul" with "Sorcerer," "Druid," or whatever caster you want (Beguiler?). (Nymphs get mental ability bonuses of +6/+6/+8, after all.)

But yeah, it's fun to get a Charisma of 18 +8 (racial) +4 (level boosts) +4 (tome) +6 (item) = 40. +15 to ...

- social skills
- save DCs for Blinding Beauty and Stunning Glance
- deflection bonus to AC
- saves
- spell DCs for some spellcaster classes

storybookknight
2007-04-05, 01:46 PM
Fighter//Swordsage is a great one for melee supremacy.

I also am actually a fan of Knight//Paladin, just because so few gestalt builds are heavy combat BAMFs - also, Knights have mounted feats, but no special mount, and Paladins have mounts, but no mounted feats - sounds win-win!

Psychic Warrior//Barbarian is another melee-heavy but powerful build.

Beguiler//Telepath is interesting... lots and lots of spellcasting, and the psion can compensate for the Beguiler's weak spots (like lack of damage).

brian c
2007-04-05, 01:50 PM
I like taking a Monster Progression with Templates with one of my Gestalt Classes... A fun one is...

Sainted Half-Celestial Feral Werebear (Natural) Paladin 4 (ECL 20) / Favored Soul 20

Total Racial / Template Stat Bonuses:
+24 Str, +2 Dex, +16 Con, +10 Wis, -2 Int, +8 Cha

Other Template Bonuses:
d10 HD, Large Size, +10' Move, +7 Nat AC & Natural Flight (100')
Insight AC Bonus equal to Wisdom Mod
Gains Pounce, Rake & Rend.
Damage Reduction 10 / Evil and Magic, Spell Resistance 30
Fast Healing 10, Immunities: Acid, Cold, Electricity, Petrification, Disease
Fire Resistance (10), +8 Save v. Poison
+2 to all Save DCs
Holy Touch (+1d6 Holy Damage / Attack)

Gain extra spells via feats to get Bite of the Werebear (+16 Str, Enhance) & Giant Size (+32 Str, Size) and you've got a PC who's got 80+ Strength, 40+ on every save (Divine Grace via Pally), 60+ AC, Flight, Colossal Size & Reach and a rediculous amount of Resistances / Immunities. Oh yeah, and he's got about > 400 HP as well.


Those are some pretty good stats but... a Feral Half-Celestial? Who then is awarded the Saint template? I'd say that's DM discretion, and you need a really nice DM to pull that off (maybe a feat has been mentioned to help with that *winkwink*)

Ramza00
2007-04-05, 02:09 PM
I like taking a Monster Progression with Templates with one of my Gestalt Classes... A fun one is...

Sainted Half-Celestial Feral Werebear (Natural) Paladin 4 (ECL 20) / Favored Soul 20

Total Racial / Template Stat Bonuses:
+24 Str, +2 Dex, +16 Con, +10 Wis, -2 Int, +8 Cha

Other Template Bonuses:
d10 HD, Large Size, +10' Move, +7 Nat AC & Natural Flight (100')
Insight AC Bonus equal to Wisdom Mod
Gains Pounce, Rake & Rend.
Damage Reduction 10 / Evil and Magic, Spell Resistance 30
Fast Healing 10, Immunities: Acid, Cold, Electricity, Petrification, Disease
Fire Resistance (10), +8 Save v. Poison
+2 to all Save DCs
Holy Touch (+1d6 Holy Damage / Attack)

Gain extra spells via feats to get Bite of the Werebear (+16 Str, Enhance) & Giant Size (+32 Str, Size) and you've got a PC who's got 80+ Strength, 40+ on every save (Divine Grace via Pally), 60+ AC, Flight, Colossal Size & Reach and a rediculous amount of Resistances / Immunities. Oh yeah, and he's got about > 400 HP as well.

Damn nice, I didn't even think of using Feral+Lycanthropes. Lycanthropes give racial HD which determine what feral abilities you get (unlike half celestial racial hd and not class levels determine feral abilities.) Plus it is damn flavorful.

Saves as a word document for a future npc.

You didn't try to fit in Fist of Raziel?

Latronis
2007-04-05, 02:10 PM
I also am actually a fan of Knight//Paladin, just because so few gestalt builds are heavy combat BAMFs - also, Knights have mounted feats, but no special mount, and Paladins have mounts, but no mounted feats - sounds win-win!

when phbII was first coming out(knight was previewed on wizards site) one of the first builds we discussed on GameFAQS IIRC was the gestalt Paladin|Knight, was in reference to a king arthur esque build iirc. The favoured soul and knight build mentioned above has a delicious kind of overkill if you drop in a 2 level pally dip for divine grace too :P

What I've wanted to do for a while is Knight\\Ranger, though to get the most out of it would require giving rangers full animal companion progression, which i always do anyway. Take an animal companion you can use as a mount and it might be slower then a paladins mount but still makes a good mount, then you've got mounted combat feats, shield abilities and you can use the ranger weapon styles to dual wield and though you lose your AC bonus if you attack with the shield you can still use by the other abilities... requires light armour though. Although technically rangers dualwield specifically requires light or no armour, i would rule the ability to take no movement penalties in heavy armour of the knight trumps that restriction out of pure awesomeness. Since you'll probably have a good charisma you could dip into paladin aswell for divine grace but with all good saves a d12 hd and 6+int skills a level and no need to be good why bother? Once i finish stating up a dire warram (aye the sheep) I'm going to do just that for an npc.

Then there's Marshal which goes so nicely with knight.

okpokalypse
2007-04-05, 02:33 PM
Those are some pretty good stats but... a Feral Half-Celestial? Who then is awarded the Saint template? I'd say that's DM discretion, and you need a really nice DM to pull that off (maybe a feat has been mentioned to help with that *winkwink*)

Oh, no doubt. It definitely calls for a bit of DM Allowance. The Saint Template is really what make it the defensive powerhouse it is. Even without that though, there's a lot of Routes to take.

I'll post another one shortly for those uber-caster types. I just gotta get some work done first...:smallsmile:

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-05, 03:22 PM
A simple Archivist/Wizard for absolute casting supremacy. Are you squishy? Yes. Is this never going to matter because you can do absolutely anything? Yes.

Zincorium
2007-04-05, 04:19 PM
Things I personally think look fun:

Hexblade//sorceror: whole lotta spells, full gish abilities, ability to weaken saving throws, plus the concept actually makes sense.

Swashbuckler/fighter/dervish/tempest//swordsage: fighting with shortswords suddenly became really useful. If you're in a game that allows dual prestige classes, using the swordsage variant, bloodclaw master and kensai on the swordsage side works very well for an unarmed fighter.

Tokiko Mima
2007-04-05, 05:16 PM
My current favorite is a pure SRD ~3 Sorcerer dip / 6 level Paladin dip / ~3 level Monk dip build. It's an anti-touch attack/saving throw build, since you field Mage Armor and Monk AC against anything with an attack roll. Plus you get all those nice saves Monks have with Divine Grace tacked on. Then I add a nice melee PrC to top it off.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-05, 05:47 PM
My current favorite is a pure SRD ~3 Sorcerer dip / 6 level Paladin dip / ~3 level Monk dip build. It's an anti-touch attack/saving throw build, since you field Mage Armor and Monk AC against anything with an attack roll. Plus you get all those nice saves Monks have with Divine Grace tacked on. Then I add a nice melee PrC to top it off.

Why six for the paladin?

Ramza00
2007-04-05, 05:53 PM
Why six for the paladin?
Well paladin 6 can get you the celestial template for your mount instead of remove disease. Decent on its own. Very nice if you do the supermount (which this person isn't doing.)


Oh yeah the supermount is far better in gestalt than normal play.
Paladin 6/Ranger 1/Beastmaster 1/Halfling Outrider 10/X 3//
Cleric 20 (probably a cleric of bahmaut, maybe with 1 lvl dip in Hierophant for Divine Reach)
or
Sorcerer 20

You are a full spellcaster and thus don't lag behind your mount like you normally do. You can also share spells with your mount.

Finally your mount has the benefits of a 17th lvl Animal Companion and a 16th lvl Paladin Mount including both Hit Dice doing feats, skills, and saves. With Draconic Mount it gets even sicker. 26 HD dragon who has taken improved rapidstrike +power attack has a total of 9 natural attacks.

More info here
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=382372

Fax Celestis
2007-04-05, 06:03 PM
Paladin 3/Monk 2/Sun Soul Monk 9/Exemplar 1/Thief-Acrobat 5//Duskblade 20, with the Serenity feat.

I am a tumble-hide-move-silently-monkey with Wis to Saves and Wis to AC, as well as having full Duskblade casting, full channeling abilities, evasion, defensive roll, and more.

Oh, and I can cast in medium armor, no problem.

Khantalas
2007-04-05, 06:05 PM
Monk / Soulborn or Monk / Incarnate. Possibly Skarn.

NEO|Phyte
2007-04-05, 06:28 PM
I'm rather partial to a WereRaptor (LA +3, 4 racial HD) Ninja 13//Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 10/Warshaper 4.

Invisible pouncing raptor of death!
Plus, with Steadfast Determination (and possibly a few other feats, I haven't gone over the numbers in a while), you are at 0 risk of having to attack your party once the bad guys are dead.

Turcano
2007-04-05, 06:40 PM
A simple Archivist/Wizard for absolute casting supremacy. Are you squishy? Yes. Is this never going to matter because you can do absolutely anything? Yes.
And you're not even that squishy, at least compared to a regular wizard. And you have the potential to cast any spell. Ever.

There's also the good old Cloistered Cleric//Druid gestalt. Forget CoDzilla; say hello to CaDzilla.

Druid 20//Wizard 19/Arcane Heirophant 1, if it's allowed, is also fairly nice. For starters, your familiar isn't squishy anymore, and you don't have to worry about arcane spell failure. Of course, there's the whole "combining what are arguably the two most powerful classes in D&D" part, as well. MAD between two caster classes is a bit of a downside, though.

Artificer/Archivist, from what I've heard, is simply insane.

Just how well does monk mesh with the more fragile caster classes? It s abilities are almost completely passive, so it should theoretically make casters a lot less squishy.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-05, 07:01 PM
The problem with combining wizard with a wis based class is the int/wis body slot affinity being the same. Little more costly to boost both int AND wisdom.

Kel_Arath
2007-04-05, 07:04 PM
hehe, psion telepath / soul blade. your a freaking jedi!

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-04-05, 07:06 PM
Some of my favorite gestalt combo's are beguiler//rogue/assassin, duskblade//cleric and warlock/hellfire warlock//hexblade. Maybe as sort of a sidenote I'm about to run a gestalt campaign and the character concepts already thought up are going to be an aasimar favored soul//cleric, gnome rogue//artificer and a mujuon raptoran wizard//archivist.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-05, 07:06 PM
The problem with combining wizard with a wis based class is the int/wis body slot affinity being the same. Little more costly to boost both int AND wisdom.

Uh, headband of intellect, periapt of wisdom.

Hoorex
2007-04-05, 07:10 PM
Cleric/Druid... nice...

JaronK
2007-04-05, 07:22 PM
My favorites:

Dread Necromancer 20//Cloistered Cleric 1/Archivist 9/Geomancer 10. Very flavorful, and with Geomancer you can cast everything off Charisma. Great for summoning Daemons!

Dread Necromancer 20//Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 4/Ur Priest 1/Bone Knight 10/X1 Similar to the last, but a more fighty flavor.

For raw power though, few things can top Beguiler//Archivist, Druid//Monk, Druid//Cloistered Cleric, Druid//Sword Sage, or Archivist//Artificer.

JaronK

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-05, 07:25 PM
Uh, headband of intellect, periapt of wisdom.

It's a periapt of wisdom? Well crap, I've been reading that as phylactery for... a long time.

brian c
2007-04-05, 08:16 PM
For maximum necromancy, how about something like
Wizard 1/Cleric 4/True Necromancer 10/Master of Shrouds 5//Dread Necromancer 20

Cleric of Wee Jas (or equivalent), Necromancy specialist or even better use the UA specialist variant. I'm pretty sure at this point you could cast every Necromancy spell in the game. Add the TN and MoS caster levels to Cleric to get a total of 20 cleric levels, 20 DN and 1 Wizard, in terms of spellcasting. There are a few prereqs, skill ranks, Spell focuses in Conjuration and Necromancy, Augment Summoning. I chose Master of Shrouds instead of Pale Master because PM is + arcane and MoS is +divine.

JaronK
2007-04-05, 08:31 PM
True Necromancer is illegal in Gestalt, because it advances two spellcasting classes.

See my Ur Priest build above for a much better necromancer.

JaronK

Draz74
2007-04-05, 09:59 PM
There's also the good old Cloistered Cleric//Druid gestalt. Forget CoDzilla; say hello to CaDzilla.

That's brilliant. :smallcool: Naming it CaDzilla, I mean. (The actual build isn't new to me.)

Only ... dip and PrC too.

Druid 20 // Monk 2 / Cloistered Cleric 18
... Plus full-caster PrCs for as many levels as possible. Yeah. That's a powerful Gestalt build.

Oh, and someone else reminded me of one of my other favorite Gestalt builds:
Soulknife 20 // Fighter 10 / Full-BAB PrC 10
... which we can update to be more modern:

Soulknife // Warblade

Edit: Oh, I also love Dervish // Scout. Though you need to be careful which base classes you use to qualify for Dervish, so you can end up with decent Fort/Will saves and covering a few other weaknesses.

Assassinfox
2007-04-05, 11:05 PM
Factotum/Binder!

"I can do anything!" :smalltongue:

The_Snark
2007-04-05, 11:40 PM
Factotum/Binder!

"I can do anything!" :smalltongue:

And then you go into Chameleon on one side, for the ultimate jack-of-all-trades. Fun times.

Egoist synergizes rather well with Duskblade or Warblade. Duskblade/Wizard can manage some killer touch spells.

Psion/wilder has an absurd number of power points and a lot of powers; you can use Wild Surge on psion powers, and wilder nets you some better HP and BAB. You do need two casting stats, but with proper power selection it shouldn't matter a whole lot.

Nomad/Elocator//Scout is fun too, but unfortunately doesn't reach its peak until level 12 or so.

I'm also fond of Fighter//Scouts, since they can get Greater Manyshot really early.

Assassinfox
2007-04-05, 11:47 PM
And then you go into Chameleon on one side, for the ultimate jack-of-all-trades. Fun times.

If Gestalt allowed two PrCs, you could go Master of Masks on the other side. :smallbiggrin:

brian c
2007-04-05, 11:51 PM
True Necromancer is illegal in Gestalt, because it advances two spellcasting classes.

See my Ur Priest build above for a much better necromancer.

JaronK

I forgot about that; then again I'm only choosing to gain levels in one spellcasting class, so I'm not taking advantage of it in the way that makes it illegal. I think a somewhat lenient DM might still allow that, and if you're playing Gestalt then you probably don't have an extremely strict DM in the first place.

Seatbelt
2007-04-05, 11:54 PM
True Necromancer is illegal in Gestalt, because it advances two spellcasting classes.

See my Ur Priest build above for a much better necromancer.

JaronK

So does that mean Mystic Thurge etc is illegal too?

Assassinfox
2007-04-05, 11:55 PM
So does that mean Mystic Thurge etc is illegal too?

Yes. I think Mystic Theurge was the example for that.

Krimm_Blackleaf
2007-04-05, 11:56 PM
So does that mean Mystic Thurge etc is illegal too?
Yes, it does.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-06, 12:08 AM
Would the Hierophant PrC be worthwhile to get? Faith Healing and Divine Reach seem worth it, as you wouldn't lose caster levels.

Heck, you could even be casting as a cleric of 5 levels higher with all spell powers as special abilities. That strikes me as very weak, though.

The_Snark
2007-04-06, 12:13 AM
I should also probably mention Fighter//Monk. Flurry of Blows (unarmed strike style) with Weapon Focus, Specialization, Mastery, Greater Focus, Greater Specialization, and - oh, I don't know, Slashing Flurry? Since you have a full BaB, you can go TWF for absolutely absurd numbers of attacks!

You can do it with any full BaB class, but Fighter allows you to stack up on the cheapest, nastiest feats you can find to just really dish out the damage.

I prefer using the Decisive Strike variant for this combo, and then grabbing Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit (or both, for maximum killing, if they can both be used). Get Two-weapon Fighting, Deft Opportunist and Double Hit (lets you make attacks of opportunity with two weapons), and you're making two unarmed attacks of opportunity at a +4 bonus, each dealing double damage, for every time someone attacks you. If they end up hitting you, which is likely given their +4 to hit and your -4 AC, you get another double attack of opportunity from Karmic. Throw in that PHB feat that gives you a bonus to attacks whenever someone doesn't attack you, combine it with the Monk's mobility, and you're doing pretty well. Just make sure you have a lot of hit points, because this build tends to kill your AC and relies on you being attacked a lot. But really... you get better the more guys you're surrounded by. It's fun.


Oooh, Master of Masks once you're done progressing in Chameleon... nice.

Turcano
2007-04-06, 12:23 AM
True Necromancer is illegal in Gestalt, because it advances two spellcasting classes.

See my Ur Priest build above for a much better necromancer.

JaronK
Well, there are three schools of thought on how gestalt interacts with dual-progression prestige classes:


Disallow them completely, in which case you can't access class features of these classes.
Have the prestige class take up both sides of the gestalt progression, which would cost you class features from both sides.
Use the prestige class as normal, but ignore the progression for the other side of the gestalt build.Personally I like Option 3 the best, but they're all valid ways of addressing the issue. However, even in Options 2 and 3, classes of this type that offer no features of their own, such as the mystic theurge, are worthless anyway (just like in normal games :smalltongue:).

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-06, 12:27 AM
I just allow everything, but under the very strict rule of "fastest progression". So, Mystic Theurge is still a terrible choice, since taking that and wizard at the same time means you're effectively taking Mystic Theurge for no reason at all as you're forced to take the divine levels with it since your arcane progression is already at it's peak thanks to wizard.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-06, 12:29 AM
Mystic theurge/ rogue or monk, though....

Turcano
2007-04-06, 12:36 AM
I just allow everything, but under the very strict rule of "fastest progression". So, Mystic Theurge is still a terrible choice, since taking that and wizard at the same time means you're effectively taking Mystic Theurge for no reason at all as you're forced to take the divine levels with it since your arcane progression is already at it's peak thanks to wizard.
That's Option #3.

Lord Tataraus
2007-04-06, 12:49 AM
Well I played a shifter Drui//Rouge once with the substitution levels, all dex-based. That was fun.
I kind of want to play a Factotum//Psion for the ultimate "I do everything!! Just not so good..." Though usually I'm not a fan of gestalt, basiclly becuase of a bad experience with a campaign with a uber-optimizing player who Dmed it...
Yeah, he basically made all the characters (except mine).

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-06, 01:11 AM
Oh, well in that case-

Option three, the way it was meant to be.

JaronK
2007-04-06, 02:20 AM
I just allow everything, but under the very strict rule of "fastest progression". So, Mystic Theurge is still a terrible choice, since taking that and wizard at the same time means you're effectively taking Mystic Theurge for no reason at all as you're forced to take the divine levels with it since your arcane progression is already at it's peak thanks to wizard.

You wouldn't take MT//Wizard. It would be more like this:

Wizard 1//Archivist 1
Wizard 2//Archivist 2
Wizard 3//Archivist 3
Wizard 4//Archivist 4
Beguiler 1//Mystic Theuge 1
Beguiler 2//Mystic Theurge 2

Etc, thus netting you a heck of a lot of spells, since you advance three kinds of casting at once. It's a little much.

JaronK

Turcano
2007-04-06, 02:29 AM
You wouldn't take MT//Wizard. It would be more like this:

Wizard 1//Archivist 1
Wizard 2//Archivist 2
Wizard 3//Archivist 3
Wizard 4//Archivist 4
Beguiler 1//Mystic Theuge 1
Beguiler 2//Mystic Theurge 2

Etc, thus netting you a heck of a lot of spells, since you advance three kinds of casting at once. It's a little much.

JaronK

No! No! No! Bad! Bad!

Seriously, no sane DM would let you do that. That's the whole point behind these restrictions.

Zincorium
2007-04-06, 03:38 AM
Honestly, the best PrC for a dual caster to take is Geomancer, hands down. Regular, it's pretty much worthless, as it requires both divine and arcane casting, and does not have dual progression, but those same weaknesses suddenly become strengths in gestalt.

You can start it up on one side as early as 4th level if you're a wizard/cleric or the like, leaving 7 levels free. This is perfect for taking Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil, which is exactly 7 levels. In the meantime, advance whichever class actually has class abilities, in this case cleric.

Casting 9th level arcane spells in full plate? Check. One ability score to pump? Check. Full double spell progression? Check. Plus a caster level increase in a particular terrain and some oddball abilities.

ZekeArgo
2007-04-06, 03:46 AM
Currently working on a Whisper Gnome Beguiler 12//Wild Shaping Non-Spellcasting Urban Ranger 12 for a city based PbP game I joined. Ability to find targets, get anywhere through various abilities, and generally rule the streets? Yes.

Zincorium
2007-04-06, 03:58 AM
Um. Wow. I just realized that, as per a quick readthrough of the descriptions of the feats Divine Metamagic and Persistent spell, and the spell Time Stop, as well as a thorough search of the FAQ, it would seem that time stop can indeed be persisted, granting 24 hours of apparent time, through a cleric/wizards spending of 6 uses of turn undead.

Please tell me someone can put holes into this. I understand that no DM in their right mind would let this through, but by RAW it seems to work flawlessly.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-06, 04:01 AM
Time stop is effectively Instantaneous, granting 1d4+1 rounds of "apparent time", and can't be extended or persisted. This should be in the FAQ.

Closet_Skeleton
2007-04-06, 04:04 AM
Um. Wow. I just realized that, as per a quick readthrough of the descriptions of the feats Divine Metamagic and Persistent spell, and the spell Time Stop, as well as a thorough search of the FAQ, it would seem that time stop can indeed be persisted, granting 24 hours of apparent time, through a cleric/wizards spending of 6 uses of turn undead.

So I can be half way through the fight with the BBEG and then stop time and have a picnic.

Awesome if it actually worked.

I've run 1 session of a Gestalt game with completely un-optimised choices.

Swashbuckler/Warblade heading for Duelist/Warblade

Scout/Swordsage heading for Shadowhand teleporting skirmish

Ranger/Rogue heading for a variant from PHb2 that lets them flank people. Already has a longbow and lots of sneak attacking.

JaronK
2007-04-06, 04:12 AM
Um. Wow. I just realized that, as per a quick readthrough of the descriptions of the feats Divine Metamagic and Persistent spell, and the spell Time Stop, as well as a thorough search of the FAQ, it would seem that time stop can indeed be persisted, granting 24 hours of apparent time, through a cleric/wizards spending of 6 uses of turn undead.

Please tell me someone can put holes into this. I understand that no DM in their right mind would let this through, but by RAW it seems to work flawlessly.

It has been errataed (or maybe saged, I don't remember). Time Stop is considered to be Instantaneous, and thus not a valid target for Persistant Spell.

JaronK

Zincorium
2007-04-06, 04:15 AM
Time stop is effectively Instantaneous, granting 1d4+1 rounds of "apparent time", and can't be extended or persisted. This should be in the FAQ.

Looked through every page of the january 26 version of the FAQ. Nada. Of course, since it's a 9th level spell, they probably didn't think to give an answer as to what happens when metamagic like persistent spell is applied. The only reason it comes up now is because you can do stuff like have divine metamagic and cast 9th level spells. Although you could do it without gestalt, if you're dead set on it.

If, at any point, time stop said that it's duration was instantaneous, then it would not function. However, it doesn't, and it's duration is 1d4 rounds (apparent time). Persistent spell doesn't have any duration requirement other than 'not instantaneous'. It's range is also personal, and thus checks out on that specification.

I am aware that this violates common sense. Don't worry about correcting me in that regard. I already stated any reasonable DM would house rule it.

Also, apologies for derailing thread.

onasuma
2007-04-06, 04:24 AM
scout/monk with all that extra movement its madness

boffer
2007-04-06, 04:58 AM
Warforged Knight//Crusader aka Sir unkillable

WeissRaben
2007-04-06, 06:18 AM
Simple, warrior/rogue.
I can make (furtive attack? I don't know how it's called in english the rogue's ability :D) with a great sword, 5d6 damage at 5th level :D

Picasso007
2007-04-06, 07:37 AM
If you don't mind rolling a lot of dice, Monk 20/Rogue 20 with TWF feats is fun. So many attacks, and all of them sneak attacks!

Even better (hah) is to use the sneak attacking Fghter variant, for more HP and a full BAB, making the routine +18/+18/+18/+13/+8/+3 flurry, +18/+13/+8 secondary. A Kama of Wounding and Speed means that you're rolling for 100d6 sneak attack damage and ten points of Con damage in a full attack. Plus you'd have all good saves, d10 hit die, 6 skill points/level, and monk abilities. MAD isn't too bad, Dex/Wis being key, and Str/Con being very nice to have.

Alternately, sticking with Rogue for the Sneak Attack source gives you crippling strike access, which lets you paralyze almost anything with <18 STR in one full attack. :smallbiggrin:

Latronis
2007-04-06, 10:49 AM
Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant.


Notice the bold I added there.

it's a recommendation.

So saying it's illegal is technically wrong.

Tokiko Mima
2007-04-06, 10:51 AM
Why six for the paladin?

It made more sense from a building up standpoint. I took the Paladin levels first. The difference between 5 and 6 is +1 to all saves, and I get a second attack, and an extra spell per day.

Because of the (admittedly faulty) way multi-class works, my character ends up with better saves than a pure monk of equivalent level, (+9 Fort, +6 Reflx +8 Will +CHA) which is good because it puts you ahead of the curve for your level. If you only take Paladin to level 5, the resulting saves would be equal to a Monk's instead.

Jalil
2007-04-06, 11:25 AM
It's not really good for a PC, but for an annoying BBEG:

Monk2/Evil Pally2/Hexblade2/Rogue2//Sorc8

Hmm, cha synergy! Take the CS feat that lets monk's AC work off cha, and force of personality, then you get Cha to AC and saves,(will twice), as well as improved evasion, mettle, and full casting from the sorc. you can PrC out of sorc, but here for simplicity...

JaronK
2007-04-06, 11:34 AM
Notice the bold I added there.

it's a recommendation.

So saying it's illegal is technically wrong.

True enough, but when the designer is saying "don't do this" that's usually enough for the DM.

It's like using fractional BAB in Gestalt. You don't have to use fractional BAB, but you sure as heck should.

JaronK

brian c
2007-04-06, 11:34 AM
If you're multiclassing in melee, it's always a good idea to pick up 6 levels (in a full BAB class) for the extra attack. Spellcasters don't care about how many attacks they get, but for a melee character it's a big difference.

Hm... for the most attacks, how many could a Ranger//Monk get, greater TWF + flurry + snap kick? this would be better if Circle Kick was a valid feat (3.0, and kinda overpowered so I know a lot of people don't allow it).

let's see... Ranger 20 gets + 20/15/10/5; greater TWF gets bonus attacks with offhand at -5 and -10... I get confused by TWF honestly, but I only want to know how many attacks. 4 attacks from Ranger 20, 2 extra from GTWF is 6 total, then 2 more from flurry is 8; add a snap kick for 9 attacks, and if you scored a critical then you can add another with roundabout kick for 10 attacks in one round. If circle kick is allowed, then add another for a total of 11 attacks (or the cheesy and surely unintended interpretation of Circle Kick that would allow you to add another attack for each succesful attack, for a total of 18 in one round; not 20 because you can't roundabout and circle kick)

Ramza00
2007-04-06, 11:36 AM
Looked through every page of the january 26 version of the FAQ. Nada. Of course, since it's a 9th level spell, they probably didn't think to give an answer as to what happens when metamagic like persistent spell is applied. The only reason it comes up now is because you can do stuff like have divine metamagic and cast 9th level spells. Although you could do it without gestalt, if you're dead set on it.

If, at any point, time stop said that it's duration was instantaneous, then it would not function. However, it doesn't, and it's duration is 1d4 rounds (apparent time). Persistent spell doesn't have any duration requirement other than 'not instantaneous'. It's range is also personal, and thus checks out on that specification.

I am aware that this violates common sense. Don't worry about correcting me in that regard. I already stated any reasonable DM would house rule it.

Also, apologies for derailing thread.
It is in the FAQ, it is in the 3.0 FAQ, this same question was asked years ago and it is still applicable.

PnP Fan
2007-04-06, 11:50 AM
I've only run one game with gestalt characters (3 player situation). We had:
fighter/rogue
barbarian/sorcerer ("sorcarian")
rogue/bard
ranger/cleric (npc) (somehow, with two classes apeace, they still didn't have levels of cleric in the party! ;-)

The f/r was very effective if he could flank, best if he could flank with the r/b. The sorcarian was interesting, as he mostly took utility spells (with maybe one or two buff/combat spells) to deal with things that his muscles couldn't handle, and so he had a peculiarly even-handed efectiveness that led to a well rounded character. The rogue/bard was mostly useful during non-combat, intrigue laden scenes, but her combat ability was iffy (mostly bad dice I think). I think the ranger/cleric could have been more useful, but I mostly just had him there for healing, so I didn't focus on optimization or functionality, so I'm not sure how useful he could have been. In general I think that just about anything combined with either a fighter, or wiz/sorc would be an improvement. You just need to make sure the flavor works

Latronis
2007-04-06, 11:55 AM
True enough, but when the designer is saying "don't do this" that's usually enough for the DM.

It's like using fractional BAB in Gestalt. You don't have to use fractional BAB, but you sure as heck should.

JaronK

It's also possible to use said PrC's without making a comparitively overpowered character.

I can understand why a lot of people dont allow it, and it can be easy enough to break but saying its outright illegal is plain inaccurate.

As for the fractional BAB that was covered earlier in this topic iirc, there's no need for it because it requires a rather liberal interpratation of the rules that is strictly different from the normal BAB stacking rules to get the problem that fracctional BAB is there to solve.. if that makes sense.

EDIT: Twas in the gestalt sneak attack thread actually
Jannex, that works too, but you don't even have to do fractional BAB and saves to get the right numbers. The thing is...you figure out a wiz's BAB progression by giving him +1 every two levels (or +0.5 every level, whichever) but the class ability is not "at levels 2, 4, 6 etc, a wizard adds 1 to his BAB, whatever that may be." Rather, it is "a level 6 wizard has a BAB of +2." Then you add the entries for BAB from each class to figure out the total

JaronK
2007-04-06, 12:07 PM
The thing is, what SpiderBrigade said there is what Fractional BAB does... not what the normal rules do. With Gestalt, you just look and see what a class gives you at a given level, and see which class gives more. If one class increases the BAB by one, then it goes up by one, end of story.

JaronK

SpatulaOfDoom
2007-04-06, 12:10 PM
Well if you want to just sit on your rear and not do anything it's hard to beat
Dread necromancer20//psion10/thrallherd10
You get tons of undead from the Dread Necromancer's superior Rebuking AND ability to cast Raise/controll undead, and you get the Thrallherd's improved Leadership ability including two Thralls (cohorts) and a Leadership score of 30+cha.
If you're playing in an evil campaign you can even use some rules out of BoVD sacrifice your Believers (Followers) to negate xp costs of crafting items, with no penalty to your leadership score, and bonus you suddenly have more material to expand your undead horde!
And just to be a little more absurd if you happen to be a Telepath you can wander around Mind Seeding folks and turning them into little copies of you, the 3000xp per ise can be reduced to 500xp with a thought bottle.

Indon
2007-04-06, 12:12 PM
The thing is, what SpiderBrigade said there is what Fractional BAB does... not what the normal rules do. With Gestalt, you just look and see what a class gives you at a given level, and see which class gives more. If one class increases the BAB by one, then it goes up by one, end of story.

JaronK

Not neccessarily. It's by fastest progression.

So if you're a Wizard//Rogue, you don't gain a BAB when the Wizard would and the Rogue wouldn't; you in fact never get any BAB from the wizard because the wizard never has higher BAB than the rogue.

Attempts to circumvent this fact via multiclassing don't work either, since if one BAB progression surpasses the other, it simply replaces it. Kind of like if a Druid 2//Ranger 2 eventually becomes a Druid 2/Rogue 6//Ranger 8; the Ranger and Druid animal companions never add together, but at ranger level 6, the Ranger animal companion feature supplants the Druid one completely.

Ashdate
2007-04-06, 12:28 PM
I was thinking last night of a Monk 20 ||Wizard 6 / Geometer 3 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 / Archmage 4 but I'm assuming there's something better to do with the Monk side then get bonus AC and great saves. Also, the build would require a high Dex, Int, and probably Wisdom so you know.

The real appeal would be the bonus feat 'Improved Disarm' you could get at free at level 6; cast True Strike and snatch weapons out of the hands of the enemy warriors with big weapons. I don't know what you'd do with them afterwards except... maybe start a collection.

- Eddie

Latronis
2007-04-06, 12:29 PM
...that is the right way to do it, as it happens.

The flaw with the logic you posted is that people will draw up a gestalt chart, and look at each level's "increase" in BAB. So yeah, going from wizard 1 to wizard 2, you go up 1 in BAB (0 to 1). Fighter 1/sorceror 2, you go up one (1+0 to 1+1). So they argue that, at each level, their BAB is increasing by one. But it isn't. At fighter level 1, sorceror level 2, you HAVE A BAB OF +2. At wizard level 3, you have a BAB of...guess what, +1. You pick the better one of those two options, which is +2. Then, next level, you do the same thing. Fighter 1/Sorc 3 has BAB +2. Wizard 4 has BAB +2. Your BAB is +2.

I think what throws people is that the BAB column contains the +, so they mistakenly read it as "adding" to their BAB. But instead, it is simply a table which lists your BAB. Somehow this never confuses people in regular play, but in gestalt so many are confused...it's really not that hard.

ok that's the post that explains it, fractional BAB works aswell

JaronK
2007-04-06, 12:30 PM
It's more of an issue when you're bouncing around through classes. Consider this build, which I actually like using when I play Gestalt:

Dread Necromancer 20//Hexblade 4/Paladin of Tyranny 3/Nar Daemonbinder 7/Martial 3/Cloistered Cleric 3

Now, if you pick sides, one side gets +10BAB and the other gets +13BAB. But remember, sides is just a way of writing Gestalt characters out... they don't really exist. Trying to say "which advances faster" is actually applying the fractional BAB rules... you should do it, and it's what's intended, but if you're playing by RAW you don't do that.

What you're saying about Rangers and Druids is in fact what Fractional BAB does... it changes BAB and saves from "gain 1 at level 2. Gain 1 at level 4" to "gain .5 BAB at each level, rounding down when calculating effective BAB."

JaronK

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-12, 08:54 AM
For MAD synergy (pun unintentional),

Favored Soul 20 // Paladin 6/Knight 2/Cavalier 10/Something else 2 gives full spontaneous casting in heavy armor, full BAB, nice bonus features, mobility, and striking power. And then there's the saves: good base progression for all 3, plus the paladin's charisma bonus. Take the CW paladin variation to get constantly good-aligned weapons instead of the crappy 1st level paladin spells, and then at level 6 you'll be at a high enough paladin level to get a flying mount.

The charisma works wonders all across the board, and the rest of the MAD is just paladin standard. This ranks right up with the Warblade/Egoist for me.

Jalil
2007-04-12, 09:15 AM
I like taking Full caster//Ranger.Full BAB, Perfect saves, d8HD, martial profs, free feats... what's not to love? 'Spesh at earlier levels, you can be a ranger with minor spellcasting, then later become a more martial mage. wonderful.

Zirael
2007-04-12, 12:07 PM
I have a realy stupid question. What does 'gestalt character/campaign' exactly mean?

Ramza00
2007-04-12, 12:15 PM
I have a realy stupid question. What does 'gestalt character/campaign' exactly mean?

You can read about Gestalt over here. Effectively your character has two classes at the same time and thus gets the best bab, saves, hit points, and twice the class features (unless they are the same class features). Gestalt characters area almost always played in a Gestalt Campaign where the NPCs are also gestalt, and the monsters will have gestalt levels (that troll will be alot nastier if it had fighter, barbarians, or ranger levels on the other side of his monster hd :smallwink: )
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm

Zirael
2007-04-12, 12:21 PM
Thanks Ramza00. Life seems so much clearer now:smallwink:

JaronK
2007-04-12, 01:09 PM
Just another fun character:

Human Warblade 20//Feat Rogue 2/Psionic Warrior 2/Monk 2/Crusader 14.

It's like being a fighter, only good!

JaronK

Ramza00
2007-04-12, 01:14 PM
JaronK: You can always throw in 2 lvls of Fighter for another 2 feats.
3 lvls of Swashbuckler 1 net you 1 more feat and than int to damage with certain weapons.

selfcritical
2007-04-12, 05:13 PM
Elan Totemist/psywar.....death by claws

Mr. Moogle
2007-04-12, 06:35 PM
"Sorcarians" (scorcer//barbarian) are pretty good but i LOVE roleplaying a "Palonk" (paladin//monk)

brian c
2007-04-12, 06:49 PM
Fighter//Monk, though suboptimal (I know so don't tell me why or how much it is) gives you a bunch of melee feats to work with as a Monk, like Weapon Spec(Unarmed), and then you use your regular every-third-level feats on non-combat

Psychic Warrior//Monk is extremely similar obviously in terms of bonus feats, and Expanding yourself as a monk to get better dice on unarmed attacks is great, not to mention reach and being able to jump farther.

Overlord
2007-04-12, 10:18 PM
"Sorcarians" (scorcer//barbarian) are pretty good but i LOVE roleplaying a "Palonk" (paladin//monk)

I prefer Monkadin, personally. :tongue:

Caduceus
2007-04-12, 10:20 PM
Mayhaps... "Paladonk?"

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-13, 06:51 AM
"Sorcarians" (scorcer//barbarian) are pretty good but i LOVE roleplaying a "Palonk" (paladin//monk)

The paladin//monk has at least SOME synergy going with the joint importance of the wisdom modifier. But then your monk needs charisma and can't wear a paladin's armor for the wisdom bonus. You're basically giving a monk better saves, full BAB, and d10 HD. But a Paladin//Favored Soul gives you all of those things and much much more, with great synergy. And roleplaying wise, that would be one heck of a devoted paladin.

Meanwhile, a sorcerer//barbarian sounds just awful. You can't use spells while raging, you can't wear armor if you're going to cast them, and you now need a high charisma and strength (besides the need for decent dexterity and constitution), rather than getting either of those as a dump stat.

Admittedly, the character concepts may be quite interesting for their roleplay value. Mechanically, though, they could use some work.

NullAshton
2007-04-13, 07:00 AM
Sorcerer//paladin is pretty fun. You've got a 'squishy' paladin, only not so squishy because of mage's armor. You also can do cool things like soften up enemies with burning hands before going in there greatswords blazing. Not to mention lay on hands, which is modified by your primary casting stat and thus is much more effective than usual paladins, as well as good save-or-die saves AND charisma bonus to saves. There's a bit of MAD... but if you focus on the sorcerer part, you really only need charisma and a bit of constitution.

Well... bit of wisdom you need... but only about 14 wisdom.

ravenkith
2007-04-13, 08:48 AM
Race: Illumian (Krau)

Class 1. Cleric of Mystra, Magic & Spell domains (FRCS)

Class 2. Martial Rogue (Variant - SRD & UA)

Feats: Initiate of Mystra (FRCS), Divine Metamagic: Persistant Spell (CDIV), Persistent Spell (FRCS)

- While nice to have, a divine version of arcane mastery is not necessary for this build. Simply cast AMF at a lower level to ensure your spells will succeed.

Items: Nightsticks (Libris Mortis)

Breakdown:
+ Good saves in Fort, Ref & Will
+ Decent HD (D8)
+ Evasion (Improved Evasion a possibility)
+ 8+Int skills
+ Almost every skill in the game is a class skill
+ Ability to cast in anti magic fields & dead magic zones
+ Ability to create antimagic fields that last for 24 hrs
+ Ability to heal/buff self (most effective when using magic weapon, greater, magic vestment, etc, while under a persisted AMF, possibly persist a vigor spell in addition)
+ Ability to cast a limited amount of arcane spells (anyspell line, miracle)
+ Regular cleric cheese, but now with more skillmonkey!
+ With sufficient nightsticks, anything is possible.

- Relatively MAD. You need dex and wisdom, for sure. It'd also be nice to have positive modifiers in the other stats, with priority being: CHA, CON, STR, INT.
- @ level 17/18, you have broken the game and won D&D. Next to nothing will pose much of a challenge ever again, barring another initiate of mystra cleric or a god.

Note: The situation only grows worse if you spec out into Dweomerkeeper (CDiv Web Enhancement) on the cleric side.

All in all a very sickening combination, that, at high levels, should be next to unstoppable, due to it's basic immunity to all things magical, and it's ability to rapidly repair any physical damage it might take, while dishing out either type of pain relatively freely.

Pauwel
2007-04-13, 03:06 PM
Warblade // Swordsage. Simple, yet effective.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-13, 03:16 PM
I'm a rather big fan of Totemist 3/Barbarian 2/Totem Rager 10/Bear Warror 5//Spirit Shaman 20. I am nature's spirit, personified.

Latronis
2007-04-13, 03:26 PM
I've wanted to try mixing warmage and rage mage with barbarian in gestalt

Also are there any PrC's devoted to natural attacks? I think i recall reading something like that somewhere i'd like to try that too. Maybe like a Yuan-Ti or something

Ramza00
2007-04-15, 02:22 PM
While I haven't played this build yet, it should be a great Wizard/Archivist. Click link for info. I will play it sometime (thus me making it :smallwink:)


Human with 2 flaws
Cleric 1/Archivist 19
Wizard 3/Master Specialist 8/Innate of Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 2 (Not in that order, see table)

The build is a master counterspeller as well as a competent mage

http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1014/masterdispellerlw2.jpg
For Counterspelling
Inquisition Domain gives me a +4 untyped bonus to dispel checks (Greyhawk Dieties that have the Inquisition Domain which debut in Complete Divine is Heironeous, Pholtus, St. Cuthbert, Moradin)
Master Specialist 8 gives .5*Class level competence bonus to dispel checks
Elven Spell Lore gives a +2 Untyped Caster Level Bonus to Dispel Checks (since it is a caster level bonus it caps at 10 for Dispel and 20 for Greater Dispel)
Arcane Mastery Allows me to take 10 on Dispel and Caster Level Checks.
Master Counterspelling at lvl 18 will allow me to spellturn any counterspells I do at the original caster.
Battlemagic Perception Cleric 3 Wiz/Sorc 3 spell in Heroes of Battle. Lasts 10 mins per level. Will have extend spell on it so I can have it on pretty much all day, will also have a contigency Battlemagic Perception up as soon as I reach 11th lvl. Battlemagic Perception gives a bonus to spellcraft for identifying spells to be counterspelled, additionally it allows me to counterspell as a free action. Once I successfully counterspell a spell Battlemagic Perception instanly ends (that is the reason for the Contigency, if there are still enemies and I don't have that spell on me it instantly activates giving me anotehr free action).
Divine Defiance feat in Fiendish Codex II requires turn/rebuke undead and a divine caster level of 3. I can spend a turn/rebuke attempt to try to counter a spell as an intermediate action. Thus starting lvl 11 I can counter 2 spells as a free action, and afterwards I can start countering spells as intermediate actions, making me the counterspell king while not using any of my own actions.
If I still need any more boost for counterspelling the Spellcaster's Bane spell in Complete Mage. Sorc/Wizard 3 allows me to add +2 insight bonus to my dispel spells for rounds/level. Cast as a swift action.
For the Magey Stuff
Improved Initative
Arcane Reach makes my touch spells ranged touch including my archivist ones
Chain Spell, Followed by Easy Metamagic Chain allows me to buff my party extremly well (out of combat or in combat, yes my party would like an arcane reach chain polymorph into trolls followed by me casting favor of the martyr on them making the immune to all damage except the one the troll is immune to, oh yeah I cast energy immunity on them before the battle since that buff lasts 24 hours), or I can cast a Greater Dispel Chain getting rid of all the enemies buffs (20 buffs and or magic items suddenly are dispelled), finally chain spell allows me to do some offensive capabilities, slay living+arcane reach+chain or combust+arcane reach+chain.
Extend Spell for Duration of Spells since I have a lot of spell slots might as well have those buffs on all day
Quicken Spell for it is obvious benefits
Elven Spell Lore will allow me to make Orb of Fire, or Flamestrike be sonic damage instead of fire, as well as this feat helping my dispel checks.
Craft Contingent Spell will allow me to keep emergency protections such as Dimension Door available (the oh **** spells) while not wasting my "contingency" spell which i can then use for having the buffs I need on me for every battle. Additionally there are some divine spells in the Spell Compendium and Heroes of Horror that can do contingent heals and contingent true resurrections (Renewal Pact, Fortunate Fate, Pact of Return)
Spell Focus besides being prerequisites (for IotSV, Archmage, and Master Specialist) also boost my DCs. I may change the Spell Focus Transmutation to another school, depending on how I write the flavor of the character
Finally I am an Initate of the Sevenfold Veil I will have my veils to defend me, and since I can use them as intermediate actions starting with IotSV lvl 4's Reactive Warding at lvl 14 at this level I effectively become unkilliable. Counterspelling allows me to stop casters, Veils allow me to stop melee, archers, and casters, Craft Contigent Spell will other type of Contigencies have backup spells just in case the previous two things don't work. If I am in an Oh **** situation I will just teleport out
Flavorwise I am thinking either a lawful ******* who hunts people down for a purpose (because his church tells him too, or his "cabal"/organization tells him too.

Or a person who pretends to be such a lawful ******* for a church/organization but instead just uses that as an excuse to see the world, explore, and search after magical rumors of powerful spells. (After all an inquisition is the act of inquiring into a matter; an investigation. It can be nefarious or it can be curious).

Necromas
2007-04-15, 02:53 PM
Duskblade/Wizard (or Sorcerer if you just can't stand preparing spells, you lose the int synergy but you don't need to focus on your Duskblade casting anyways)

You'll want to multiclass or something to get access to armored casting on the wizard side and don't forget arcane strike, you'll have plenty of spells per day to burn through.

Advantages:
-Full BAB
-2 good saves
-Arcane Channeling with any 1st-9th level wizard touch spell
-All the buffs a Duskblade could want
-Since wizard covers your casting needs, you can burn through your Dusblade spells without hesitation on things like arcane strike and swift action spells
-Quick Cast and Spell Power with your wizard spells
-Low MAD for a gestalt (Str, Int, and Con)
-Int synergy
-Wizard bonus feats
-The devastating power of any other wizard

Disadvantages:
-Bad reflex save
-d8 hp
-Spell failure (bah, mage armor and other buffs are as good as a chain shirt anyways, or get light armor casting through a dip in spellthief or knight phantom and take cattle caster to wear mithral full plate)
-Somatic components (not a problem if you use a 2 hander like you should, but a single feat will solve your problem for sword and boarders or dual wielders)

Note: If you dual wield, instead of taking a feat to cast while your hands are full, you might want to take exotic weapon proficiency in a double weapon instead since you can take a hand off those to cast without dropping them just like two handers.

ghost_warlock
2007-04-16, 08:41 PM
I'm playing in a gestalt campaign right now and my character is a gestalt druid 3/wizard 3 - primarily focused on buffing/battlefield control with some utility. My animal companion does most of the damage while I hang back and cast animalistic power, grease, mass snake's swiftness, and the like.

For some cheese, I discussed with my party this last session the advantages of sharing alter self with my wolf to turn it into a dire bat... :smallbiggrin:

The real fun will start at 5th level, though, when I start gestalting druid & geomancer. :smallamused: Druid 10/Wizard 4-Geomancer 6 will pwn!

After I complete geomancer, the plan is to go druid/wild soul (from Complete Mage) for some tasty fey-related flavor.

If my character eats it, I'm going hexblade/sorcerer with my replacement character until I get hexblade high enough to qualify for dragon disciple (probably stick withi hex until 7th for the better curse).

Innis Cabal
2007-04-16, 08:42 PM
warlock/marshal

JaronK
2007-04-16, 08:45 PM
Some fun and flavorfull ones:

Crusader//Cloistered Cleric. You simply can't die, and you can stop almost anything. To go all the way, make it Crusader 20//Cloistered Cleric 10/Radient Servant of Pelor 10, and become the ultimate healing and tanking machine.

Crusader//Knight. YOU SHALL NOT PASS

Dread Necromancer//Binder. Summon up undead to fight for you and vestiges to give yourself any ability you need. Very flexible class.

Beguiler 10/Chamleon 10//Binder 20. For those times when you want to play as absolutely everything.

JaronK

Umbral_Arcanist
2007-04-16, 08:46 PM
I feel the warlock/rogue combo is quite nice.

The rogue's SA and skills benifit the warlock's damage and role as the "face" and skill monkey.

The warlock's eldritch blast allows the rogue to go weaponless and still get in good SA, also several invocations complement the rogue's skill usage and abilities.

Certainly not the best rogue combo, but a solid one, especially from the warlock perspective, only HP is really a problem with the d6 HD

ravenkith
2007-04-17, 08:19 AM
Warlock/scout is technically better....IMHO.

Zincorium
2007-04-17, 08:52 AM
One thing I'd really like to ask, since a LOT of people are putting things like it forward:

Why, in a gestalt game, would you double up expertise in one particular area rather than spreading it out?

JaronK's middle two proposed builds I think form the clearest example of what I'm asking about. Both fill a single combat/party role very well, arguably much better than a normal character, but one of the situations where it is suggested that gestalt be used, very small parties, it does nothing to solve the problem at hand. Neither character can expand to fill in for missing characters.

So, I guess the best way to phrase it is this: In what situation, is such a character build going to be more useful or will have more to do compared to a more diverse gestalt build?

ZekeArgo
2007-04-17, 09:24 AM
One thing I'd really like to ask, since a LOT of people are putting things like it forward:

Why, in a gestalt game, would you double up expertise in one particular area rather than spreading it out?

JaronK's middle two proposed builds I think form the clearest example of what I'm asking about. Both fill a single combat/party role very well, arguably much better than a normal character, but one of the situations where it is suggested that gestalt be used, very small parties, it does nothing to solve the problem at hand. Neither character can expand to fill in for missing characters.

So, I guess the best way to phrase it is this: In what situation, is such a character build going to be more useful or will have more to do compared to a more diverse gestalt build?

Because you can still only take a single action in a round.

It's the same problem that the mystic theurge has: its better to be really good at what you do than to be crappy at a whole bunch of things.

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 09:25 AM
Crusader 20/Archivist 20 works well
or
Crusader 18
Archivist 9
Prestige Paladin 3
Fist of Raziel 10
or
Crusader 18
Cleric 9
Prestige Paladin 3
Fist of Raziel 10
(During the 2 lvls of Prestige Paladin and Fist of Raziel loses spellcasting, put it on the crusader side and take a lvl in Archivist so you get all 20 lvls of spellcasting)

Using Archivist or Prestige Paladin Cleric to grab spells such as Rhino Rush (swift), Righteous Fury (get an item familiar and have it cast this spell on you), and at upper levels
Lion's Charge (Persist this) . Then add charging manuevers

Rhino Rush will double your damage on a charge, x2
Righteous Fury will double your damage on a charge (if you get multiple attacks only the first attack gets this doubling) x2
Lance will double your damage on a charge (only if mounted). x2
Spirit Charge will double your damage on a charge (only if mounted) x2
Do to how D&D doubling works 4 doublings is actually x5.

Now all "flat" damage (no dice rolls) is affected by the x5, stuff such as the bonus damage from white raven manuevers, smite, strength, and power attack.

So if I use the 9th lvl White Raven Maneuver, Warmaster Charge I would do 50 damage just from the manuever, plus 1 of my 2 Crusader Charges (+18), A strength of 30 (+10), and Power Attacking 10 BAB at a 2:1 ratio (+20)
50+18+10+20=98*5=490 damage before weapon damage and magic enchantments.

There are further ways to improve this, such as Neraph Charge makes the target flatfooted (thus more power attack), there are several ways to make the charge a touch attack, and there are a couple damage multipler things I am probably forgetting. Also my numbers above are being pulled out of my head, and if done correctly you should have a better PA ratio and should be PAing more.

Here is a co thread on the subject, I am doing the above stuff from memory.
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=105223

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 09:36 AM
Because you can still only take a single action in a round.

It's the same problem that the mystic theurge has: its better to be really good at what you do than to be crappy at a whole bunch of things.

Exactly, the biggest problem with being a "generalist" is the limited actions per round. Now there are a way around this (item familiar casting spell, imbue familiar with spell like ability, belts of battle which for a limited amount of days give up a swift action to get a move, standard, or full round action) regardless you are limited to a number of actions per round.

Because of this one side of your gestalt should be "passive benefits." Passive benefits are like
a paladin's cha to saves,
a fighter/psychic warrior/feat rogue feats is a passive benefit,
monk/swordsage/ninja wis to ac is a passive benefit,
getting good hit points and good base class saves is a passive beneifts, boosting something you are already going to be doing is a passive benefit.This is why Incanrum is so good in gestalt, alot of its benefits are passive benefits, or they boost things you are already going to be doing. A lawful fighter/incarnate will have good fort and reflex, good bab, and a huge boost to skills and to hit due to his soulmelds (and since he has such a high to hit he power attacks it all away and thus almost all his attacks hit and they hit hard)

While by no means a comprehensive list of passive benefits this list is a good start place for optimization gestalt. The X stat to Y bonus thread (such as Cha to Saves, Cha is X, Saves is the bonus Y)
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=320889

Playing a dual caster on both sides is kinda stupid in gestalt for you have the mystic theurge problem. Lots of spells, not enough actions to cast them. Yet there are ways around it, for example my Wizard 20/Cleric 1/Archivist 19 build above in post 109 is an example of this. It specifically uses a lot of its tricks/good spells to make dispelling a free/intermediate action, thus I use half my spell slots to disable people by dispelling them (while not wasting actions) while I use the other half of my slots to be a normal full caster.

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 09:38 AM
Note my above post is looking at gestalt from a mechanical optimization standpoint. Picking your "favorite" gestalt build doesn't have to be that way, you may make your choices from a flavor perspective, such as I sense GhostWarlock with his Geomancer/Druid build hit on.

Zincorium
2007-04-17, 09:52 AM
Because you can still only take a single action in a round.

It's the same problem that the mystic theurge has: its better to be really good at what you do than to be crappy at a whole bunch of things.

Yes, you can only take a single action, but with only two, maybe three people, aren't there going to be many occasions when an entirely different action is warranted in each? Specialization means roles won't get filled, and that's not good, especially if the classes retain all their normal weaknesses (low hit points for rogue//warlock, lack of spellcasting for a champion//knight).

The thing about mystic theurge is that they sacrifice being good at one thing to be better at two, gestalt doesn't have that, or at least won't with a good choice of classes. You'll still get 9th level spells as normal with a wizard//cleric, you'll just get fewer and the saves will be lower.

The thing is, your argument works more against the rogue//scouts and sorceror//wizards than against mixed builds. Being able to do more of the same thing is irrelevant if that's not the best thing to be doing.

Most it just seems like a waste of possibility. Knight and champion fit very similiar, almost the same archetypes. They're both full BAB classes, neither has a lot of skill points, and d12 is not much of an improvement over d10. Yes, the special abilities are nice, but you can do more than half of what you can do with that build with just one side. Given all the classes to put on the other 'side' that would improve your versatility greatly, marshal for knight and cleric for champion, say, it seems like you're restricting your toolbox to all screwdrivers when it might be handy to have a wrench, you know?

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 09:56 AM
Warblade//Feat Rogue is good.
Full BAB, d12 hit points,8+skills, 2 good saves, feats as a fighter+feats as a warblade, you qualify for fighter feats at warblade -2 lvls, improved evasion, rogue special abilities. Flavorful

Warblade//Psychic Warrior
Similar to the Warblade/Feat Rogue but now psychic abilities instead of rogue goodies.

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 09:59 AM
Yes, you can only take a single action, but with only two, maybe three people, aren't there going to be many occasions when an entirely different action is warranted in each? Specialization means roles won't get filled, and that's not good, especially if the classes retain all their normal weaknesses (low hit points for rogue//warlock, lack of spellcasting for a champion//knight).

...
Snips

Specialization doesn't mean you take two near identical classes and throw them together. No you take class 1, and then pick a complimentary but similar class.

For example a Warblade//Fighter is a very BAD idea
a Warblade//Feat Rogue on the other hand is a very GOOD idea.

Zincorium
2007-04-17, 10:01 AM
Specialization doesn't mean you take two near identical classes and throw them together. No you take class 1, and then pick a complimentary but similar class.

For example a Warblade//Fighter is a very BAD idea
a Warblade//Feat Rogue on the other hand is a very GOOD idea.

Right, and why is it a good idea? Not just because of the feats, but you're getting 8 plus a probably good intelligence skill points and one of the better lists in the game.

Voila, without trying too hard, you've created a character that can be a decent trapmonkey and a very good combatant.

That's what I mean about avoiding specialization. Pick something that helps you with one role if you want, but try to have at least secondary expertise in something else.

Ramza00
2007-04-17, 10:16 AM
That's what I mean about avoiding specialization. Pick something that helps you with one role if you want, but try to have at least secondary expertise in something else.
I wouldn't call that "specialization" I would call that avoiding "overlapping specialization."

I agree with you, we just didn't describe what we meant well enough, that it took a good amount of discussion for both of us to know what we meant.

Mesiolan
2007-04-17, 11:37 AM
My favorite for a small party is CLE (healing domain) // Ardent (energy mantle). Both rely on WIS. Fills the roles of healer, blaster, and secundary tank (full plate, hv. shield, but only 3/4 BAB and d8 HP). If MAD is not a problem, go psion or erudite for bonus feats and broader psi-knowledge.

If you play into very high levels, a plain WIZ // CLE is unbeatable. Gets bonus feats in epic levels and epic spellcasting in two classes. Use +5 mithral twilight breast plate with +5 mithral buckler for nice AC and next to no ASF.

Kellus
2007-04-17, 07:49 PM
I'm going to be playing in a gestalt game soon, and I was considering using shadowcaster (from the Tome of Magic) as one of the two sides. Although it's a very weak class as it stands, it seems that most of its problems could be eliminated by pairing it up with something that gives good BAB, skills, saves, and so on. I love the idea of the class, but I'm not sure what my other side should be. Any ideas what would go well with a shadowcaster?

Tellah
2007-04-17, 08:44 PM
I just made a Duskblade//Psion that I'm particularly pleased with, although using another class that grants arcane spell casting would make better use of the channeling abilities. Using Psion, though, allows for buff-stacking combinations that are otherwise unavailable in a spontaneous "casting" INT-based character.

JaronK
2007-04-17, 10:27 PM
One thing I'd really like to ask, since a LOT of people are putting things like it forward:

Why, in a gestalt game, would you double up expertise in one particular area rather than spreading it out?

JaronK's middle two proposed builds I think form the clearest example of what I'm asking about. Both fill a single combat/party role very well, arguably much better than a normal character, but one of the situations where it is suggested that gestalt be used, very small parties, it does nothing to solve the problem at hand. Neither character can expand to fill in for missing characters.

So, I guess the best way to phrase it is this: In what situation, is such a character build going to be more useful or will have more to do compared to a more diverse gestalt build?

Generally speaking, the strongest gestalt builds will be ones with lots of passive abilities which reenforce each other. Also, the two classes should do similar things from completely different angles.

For example, Dread Necromancer//Binder. While thematically similar, they do things completely differently. The Dread Necromancer uses spells to summon undead, while the Binder summons vestiges that enhance you. Both have incredibly good passive abilities which stack nicely... DN Damage reduction and skeletal minions, for example, or the Binder's 24 hour vestige binding and long term enhancements. There's almost no overlap of abilities, except for the good will saves on both. Thus, very little is lost, and you have many abilities which go together well. Also note that both classes work off Charisma. The result is a much more powerful character, over all.

Likewise, the Cloistered Cleric 10/Radient Servant of Pelor 10//Crusader 20. Both are tanky healer types, but they do it in totally different ways, which work together. Use persistant buffs to augment your tanking all day long. Use supercharged heals when you need them. Also, get free heals all day long from various stances, keeping your party up. Very handy.

Druid//Cloistered Cleric is perhaps the strongest of all combinations. Wild shape and persistant buffs cover your passive stuff. Those two things, while used for the same purpose (making you a close combat god), are different, and thus stack. Also, you only need Wisdom.

Basically, for a strong gestalt you want the following:

Stat synnergy: you want to be able to max one or two stats to be strong.

Abilities which don't use your actions: A Wizard//Sorcerer is either a Wizard or a Sorcerer in any given round, depending on which spell he's casting, but a Monk//Druid is getting the advantages of both classes at once, since so many advantages don't use actions (Wis to AC, Wild Shape, etc)

Similar class goals, with different approaches: A Wizard//Sorcerer has similar class goals (arcane caster) but the same approach, so they overlap too much. A Cloistered Cleric//Crusader has similar goals (hold off enemies and heal) but they do it in totally different ways (manuevers/stances and spells) which gives a lot of flexibility, plus potencial stacking.

JaronK

CASTLEMIKE
2007-04-18, 01:18 AM
I like skillpoints and enough hit points to take a hit or two.

For a non PRC Int based build:

Alt Rogue-1, Archivist-19 with Psion -20 to personal taste. +11 BAB just in case, Light, Med Armor Prof, Simple Weapons and Rogue weapon Prof, 20D6 (Most DMs will allow a Variant of the Stalwart Sorcerer for the Stalwart Psion which grants +40 HP to the build). Lots of spellcasting versatility and psionic versatility which is especially nice if there is No Transparency between Magic and Psionics. Spending a Feat or a level will get you Heavy Armor Proficiency. Limited Wish and Miracle as spells grants a lot of situational versatility particularly in conjunction with the psionic Bend Reality power.


Not the Best Heavy Duty Battle Spellcaster Build with room for tweaking but respectable:

UA Battle Spellcaster Variant with (Int) - 15 levels + 5 combination levels in Archmage and Guild Mage (MotAO). It Grants the D8 for All Levels including Archmage and Guild Mage to flesh out the other half of the build for forfeiting that known spell and one less daily level spellcasting, the choice of a few class skills, Good Save Choice (Suggest Reflex), the extra bonus feats at 5, 10 and 15 (Arcane Discipline like Prestige Summoning or Summoner Domain or the Nexus Feat) For Unlimited Up Close and Personal Low Level Monster Flavor Blasting Fun consider Taking the Fiery Burst Reserve Feat with a High level Fire Spell to power it up. Choice of all known spells for both spell casting classes.

Plus the Spell Pool allows 10 arcane spell levels a day of level 1 to 6 arcane spells with 4 levels of MotAO and level 1 to 3 arcane spells with only a single level in MotAO which can be very useful situationally for just the right spell a few or more times a day with MotAO. 1 - 4 Archmage levels adds a lot more options and abilities.

You should be able to get +20 BAB with the proper level stacking between classes, with Full Weapon and Armor Proficiencies with No ASF for Spellcasting.

Alt Rogue-1 (Grants 8SPs and +1BAB Killer in a skill based campaign with Int as Primary Ability at level 1 while others might go a different route with that first level), Archivist -9, Loremaster-2, Thaumaturgist-4, Sacred Exorcist-1 (Grants Turn Undead to qualify for UA PRC Paladin or (Variant Alignment Paladin)) -3.

It grants Level 18 Archivist Spellcasting without Feat enhancement, Basic Bardic Knowledge (with a High Int modifier), Divine Grace and other Paladin abilities Detect Evil, Smite Evil, Turn Undead, Lay on Hands, Special Mount, Aura of Courage and Divine Health for forfeiting 1CL, the 8 level 1 Rogue Skill Points with a Primary Intelligence Modifier multiplied by 4, 17D8 +3D10 HP (Take the Stalwart Sorcerer Alternative Class feature for an Extra 40 HP at the cost of knowing a single highest known level spell. Augmented Extended(+0) Spontaneous Monster Summoning from both classes with the Nexus Method or Prestige Summoning Domain gives you a lot of versatility if you know your summoning creatures abilities. Things like using that extended SM7 Movanic Deva spellcasting for a Freebie Raise Dead, Commune for DM guidance, Aid, Continual Flame, Create Food and Water, Death Ward, Discern Lies, Prot from Arrows, Atonement, Bless Weapon, Cure Serious, Divination, Plane Shift, Prayer, Hallow, Etheral Jaunt, Holy Smite, Neutralize Poison, Remove Curse, Remove Disease. Limited Wish and Miracle for both spellcasting classes if desired.

Taking the Intiate of Mystra or equivalent God of Magic really makes this a killer as posted earlier.

ghost_warlock
2007-04-23, 01:22 PM
Note my above post is looking at gestalt from a mechanical optimization standpoint. Picking your "favorite" gestalt build doesn't have to be that way, you may make your choices from a flavor perspective, such as I sense GhostWarlock with his Geomancer/Druid build hit on.
The build is actually delicious both for flavor and optimization. Because this is a gestalt character, by going druid/geomancer I will be advancing wildshape, druid spell progression, and wizard spell progression. Keep in mind that this is using the core druid, not the alternate version from Player's Handbook II.

At 20th level the character will have access to 9th level druid and wizard spells, the ability to wildshape into X-elemental or any Huge animal or plant and cast all of his spells while wildshaped, using his Intelligence bonus to set the save DC's. If I want, I can even wear druid armor (re: dragonhide plate) and completely ignore arcane spell failure. Not to mention having blindsense and a variety of other decent passive benefits from the geomancer's drifts. I took Eschew Materials for my feat at 3rd so material components for spells won't be an issue.

My feats after 6th are all metamagic (Reach Spell, Quicken Spell, Chain Spell, & Sculpt Spell).

Batman, anyone?

The Wild Soul levels are purely for flavor, though. :smalltongue:

NEO|Phyte
2007-04-23, 01:51 PM
A build I've got planned out for a PbP looks like it will be just a few flavors of awesome in the later levels.

Thri-Kreen(4)/???1/Bloodstorm Blade1/Bloodclaw Master5/Bloodstorm Blade 9//Warblade 20

Focus on Tiger Claw manouvers, grabbing useful Iron Heart manouvers to taste. Be sure to nab an IH stance for Bloodstorm Blade.

We'll see how it plays out as I get past level 1, assuming it doesn't crash and burn.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-30, 12:39 AM
With a wizard/archivist, would it be worthwhile to lose one level on either side to grab cleric (domains undeath + charm), pick up divine metamagic, and then go 20/19? With a modest 14 charisma to begin with, you could easily have 10 or so turn attempts/day.

I'd think cleric1/wizard19/archivist20 would be better for the slightly more hp + skills you'd get at low levels.

Also, what feats should be got? Standard metamagic fare?

Turcano
2007-04-30, 12:43 AM
With a wizard/archivist, would it be worthwhile to lose one level on either side to grab cleric (domains undeath + charm), pick up divine metamagic, and then go 20/19? With a modest 14 charisma to begin with, you could easily have 10 or so turn attempts/day.

I'd think cleric1/wizard19/archivist20 would be better for the slightly more hp + skills you'd get at low levels.

No, getting Turn Undead through taking levels in Sacred Exorcist and Contemplative for a domain is a much better idea, if you're going that route.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-30, 12:56 AM
No, getting Turn Undead through taking levels in Sacred Exorcist and Contemplative for a domain is a much better idea, if you're going that route.

Has an alignment requirement of good, which doesn't really work out for the character idea.
What's contemplative do?


[edit]Nevermind, I found it. Prestige class, extra domain. Wow. 4 levels nets you 11+ cha turn attempts.

Beleriphon
2007-04-30, 01:00 AM
I've always been fond of the Paladin//Sorcerer build myself

The two classes always struck me as being complimentary.

Turcano
2007-04-30, 01:09 AM
Has an alignment requirement of good, which doesn't really work out for the character idea.
What's contemplative do?

Contemplative is a prestige class that, on its first level, gives you a domain that your deity has, in addition to a divine spellcasting progression. All you need are divine spellcasting 13 ranks in Knowledge (religion), and contact with your deity's representative to qualify.

Latronis
2007-04-30, 12:26 PM
I've been thinking about one

If you take the savage progressions classes

Weretiger 3\Tiger (lycanthrope) 6\X 1\Thayan Gladiator 10\\Scout 3\Ranger 17

X can be anything, assassin perhaps, maybe something simple like barbarian.

Now by my reckoning that should make for one scary charge, which is the idea since it's supposed to be one savage hunter, and don't even need any equipment to be relatively effective.

Ramza00
2007-04-30, 12:30 PM
Throw on the fearl template Latronis or does Thayan Gladiator already give you pounce? ( I know you can get lion pounce via ranger)

Latronis
2007-04-30, 12:32 PM
You get pounce while in tiger form

Fax Celestis
2007-04-30, 12:45 PM
Totemist 20//Druid 8/Monk 2/Warshaper 1/Sun Soul Monk 9.

This is the Pauper of Smack build on crack.

Armads
2007-05-01, 05:39 AM
Archivist//Wizard

You get EVERY single divine spell in the game, and nearly every arcane spell.

Or maybe Duskblade//Archivist, because the 3.5 FAQ says that you can use arcane channeling with divine spells (however stupid that may be)

Bauglir
2007-05-02, 01:14 PM
Warlock/Anything with full BAB. I tend to pick fighter just because it's easier and the bonus feats are nice for the combo. Combine Eldritch Glaive (Dragon Magic), a Belt of Battle (Magic Item Compendium), a Spare Arm (also MIC, for holding the second Warlock's Scepter), 2 Warlock's Scepters (Complete Arcane, 1 for each full attack), a Greater Chasuble of Fell Power (CA), and Gloves of Eldritch Admixture (MIC) with Hellfire Warlock level 3 and Maximize Spell Like Ability, and you get 1344 points of damage spread out amongst 10 touch attacks all made in one round once per day, though you do take 2 points of Con damage. And the rest of the time you can be dishing out 44d6 points of untyped damage per round.

ImperiousLeader
2007-05-02, 04:48 PM
I'm going to be playing in a gestalt game soon, and I was considering using shadowcaster (from the Tome of Magic) as one of the two sides. Although it's a very weak class as it stands, it seems that most of its problems could be eliminated by pairing it up with something that gives good BAB, skills, saves, and so on. I love the idea of the class, but I'm not sure what my other side should be. Any ideas what would go well with a shadowcaster?

I assume you're using the Shadowcaster as written, there are a bunch of tweaks to it lying around. I'm also assuming that you want to be primarily a Shadowcaster first, which means you want to be a sneaky mage.

Regardless, you suffer from MAD off the top, as Shadowcasters require both CHA and INT, so your second class should be a CHA or INT based class.

Rogue or Factotum offer a boost to medium BAB, fill in your weak save, increase hitpoints and really boost your skills. Factotums are more INT-intensive, but offer the ability to add your INT bonus to a bunch of other abilities which is pretty sweet.

Shadowcasters have some nice touch attack mysteries, so Fighter or Warblade could make you an interesting gish. Paladin would offer Divine Grace, but it's not a flavourful match. A Swordsage specializing in Shadowhand is a flavourful match, but adds more MAD by requiring WIS.

The Spellthief is CHA based and would work well gestalted with Shadowcaster. You get some Sneak Attack, improved BAB and skills, and the ability to steal spells. Combine that with the Black Magic path and you can be an interesting Anti-caster character. See the DM about allowing your stolen spells to empower casting mysteries.

The Binder is another interesting CHA addition. Choose roguish vestiges like Marchosias or Paimon and you may find that a good match.

Those are my main ideas. I'd say your best bets would be Rogue, Factotum or Spellthief. A skillmonkey secondary would help you become a sneaky scout mage. Consider dipping into Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain sight.

Fax Celestis
2007-05-02, 05:17 PM
I'm going to be playing in a gestalt game soon, and I was considering using shadowcaster (from the Tome of Magic) as one of the two sides. Although it's a very weak class as it stands, it seems that most of its problems could be eliminated by pairing it up with something that gives good BAB, skills, saves, and so on. I love the idea of the class, but I'm not sure what my other side should be. Any ideas what would go well with a shadowcaster?

Shadowcaster//Soulborn is good, as is Shadowcaster//Favored Soul.

RMS Oceanic
2007-05-03, 04:26 AM
Only started my foray into Gestalt, but I'm quite fond of my simple Fighter//Monk combo. Full BAB, d10 hit die, wide variety of skills (and the points to spend on them) and nice fighter feats to buff up my monks attacks. Weapon Specialization (Unarmed Strike) is hard to scoff. I need a higher than usual WIS, but that works fine.

Rumda
2007-05-03, 06:58 AM
I've always liked swashbuckler17/rogue3//wizard20, with the feat from complete scoundrel that stacks swashbuckler and rogue levels for sneak attack and grace. Full caster progression, int synergy, high BAB, sneak attack,

Draz74
2007-05-03, 01:45 PM
I've always liked swashbuckler17/rogue3//wizard20, with the feat from complete scoundrel that stacks swashbuckler and rogue levels for sneak attack and grace. Full caster progression, int synergy, high BAB, sneak attack,

Yeah, but swap out Wizard for some other Int-based caster who can wear armor. Beguiler is my favorite (flavor!), but Psion is good too.

Beguiler 20//Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Duelist 10 ... Mmmm. (Barbarian dip is just for the Fast Movement/Uncanny Dodge.)

Rocktopotomus
2007-05-03, 02:12 PM
Monk/Psion.
even taking only 1 level of monk gives a psion incredible bonuses, your ac is sky high, you can take the psionic fist powers and psionic meditation and every round deliver a ridiculously empowered strike. I had a monk1/psion11 that could punch for 7d6+3 every turn that he did not move more than 5'

CASTLEMIKE
2007-05-03, 07:38 PM
Has an alignment requirement of good, which doesn't really work out for the character idea.
What's contemplative do?


[edit]Nevermind, I found it. Prestige class, extra domain. Wow. 4 levels nets you 11+ cha turn attempts.


There are all the optional various alignment paladins available.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2007-05-03, 10:32 PM
My fav was a Vow of Poverty Monk10 Initiate of Pistis Sophia10 // Warblade20. Magic items? HAH! I Scoff at yoo.

Ramza00
2007-05-29, 09:59 PM
A great combination for a skirmisher are these options in combination.


A Ranger and a Scout combine with the Swift Hunter feat. You can get up to 5d6 skirmish damage with this option, and allow skirmish damage to enemies that were previously immune to skirmish. Due to gestalt rules though you can only get the faster progression, thus no double dipping aka no ranger 10//scout 10 doing 5d6 skirmish damage.
Dragon Devotee, the fastest progression of skirmish around. Dragon devotee is a transformational prestige classes like dragon desciple but unlike it, it doesn't suck. Over 5 lvls you gain 2 lvls of sorc casting (and if you didn't have any you gain as a 1st lvl sorc), 2 lvls of bonus feats as fighter or progressing skirmish or sneak attack by 2d6 damage (this is a boost thus it works under gestalt rules, it doesn't do faster progression since its a boost.), some ability scores and eventually the draconic template
Unseen Seer, like Dragon Devotee this gives you a boost to your existing sneak attack or skirmish, to a number of 4d6.
Improved Skirmish, this feat gives you another 2d6 sneak attack.


Add this all together
5d6 Ranger/Scout
2d6 Dragon Devottee
4d6 Unseen Seer
2d6 Improved Skirmish.
That is 13d6 skirmish damage right there, a nice number for a greater many shot archer, or pouncing twfer.

Dragon Devotee major requirement is 5 bab, and no dragon of draconic template, thus you can combine both in a 20 lvl build easily.

Dragon Devotee and Unseen Seer at a minimun is 12 lvls of Sorc casting, you can gain more if you sacrifice your archer focus.

If you go twf route, make sure to do the barbarian subsitution option in complete champion. The lion totem gives you pounce with only 1 lvl in exchange for fast movement.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-05-29, 10:15 PM
I'm gonna try to get a friend of mine to start a new gestalt campaign soon. I want to try playing this guy-

Marshal//Unarmed Strike Variant Swordsage (I'll agree to give up even the Marshal's armor proficiencies for this, with the sole exception of the shield proficiency). He'll carry around several different blades at all times strapped around his body, from greatswords and longswords to shortswords and daggers, plus every hidden blade I can manage from Complete Scoundrel. I'll move into Master of the Nine when I can, too. The idea's to play as a legendary swordsman before he becomes legendary. He carries all those blades with him to remind himself that no blade makes any man. This is also why he uses unarmed strikes, to be his own sword when no other can be found.

He'll take up a general mishmash of feats designed for multiple different combat styles, from two-hander power attacking to TWF to sword and boarding. Quick Draw will be essential to maintaining the effect of switching in and out of combat styles with different weapons. It's not optimized, but it's also not supposed to be- I feel I can be effective with what I've already got here, and am doing this entirely for the flavor. I'll prioritize all mental attributes above physical ones, but try to keep a mostly balanced set. Not because of MAD, per se, but because it fits in with the quest to find inner peace by strengthing mind and body equally.

Lastly, I'll be abusing leadership and my Marshal auras to still keep me effective with the rest of the party. Gotta stay at least somewhat competitive, right?

rawling
2007-05-30, 06:14 AM
A Ranger and a Scout combine with the Ascetic Hunter feat. You can get up to 5d6 skirmish damage with this option, and allow skirmish damage to enemies that were previously immune to skirmish. Due to gestalt rules though you can only get the faster progression, thus no double dipping aka no ranger 10//scout 10 doing 5d6 skirmish damage.



How does Ascetic Hunter do anything in a build without a Monk?

Anyway, I like the sound of Rogue/Ranger/Daggerspell Shaper // Druid. MAybe dropping the Rogue if DM lets you drop something from the Ranger to get some SA (I'm thinking animal companion).

Full Druid caster progression, plus pretty much full Ranger progression. Free TWF feats without the Dex prerequisite, plus use of magic dagger bonuses in Wild Shape. All good saves, full BAB from Ranger while it lasts, decent HP and passable skills. Full Wild Shape progression despite the suckiness of ambiguity of the Daggerspell Shaper progression (you can just ignore it).

Ramza00
2007-05-30, 08:26 AM
I meant swift hunter, will edit.

You can't use dragonspell shaper since it is a combo class.

rawling
2007-05-30, 09:16 AM
Daggerspell :smalltongue:

If it's actually mentioned at all, it's just as a guideline; four classes, I think, as specifically banned from Gestalt in Unearthed Arcana, and this isn't one of them.

Plus as a "combo class", consider that most of its "combinations" are not being exploited:

1) Wildshape progression is not used, except for class features (the better Druid progression is used).
2) Caster levels are not being used to boost the "opposite" class (e.g. Rog5/DS8//Drd13 casting as 20th level Druid would be a bit much).
3) SA progression not being used alongside another SA class.

But yeah, open to interpretation :smallannoyed:

Ramza00
2007-05-30, 09:56 AM
Sorry I misread, I thought you were saying you would use daggerspell to progress druid, if you are using it to progress ranger I would probably allow it due to ranger being a half caster class. But you are right open to interpretation.

Ramza00
2007-06-07, 05:07 PM
Fear the Dragon Bard and his allies


Draconic inspiration (Dragon Magic, Feat), when using Inspire Courage you can select to give you and your allies 1d6 fire damage for each moral attack bonus you would normally give. When you use this ability you do not get the moral bonus to attack and damage from Inspire Courage. If you are a half dragon or you have the Draconic Heritage Feat instead of fire damage you do the damage type of your patron dragon (either sonic, fire, acid, cold, lighting, if your dragon isn’t one of these types you do fire damage)
Draconic heritage: battle or emerald dragon (Dragon Magic, Races of the Dragon has the extended list). Needs 1 lvl of Sorcerer. Your Draconic Inspiration now does sonic damage which is rarely resisted. If you are a kobold the RotD sorcerer substitution options will give you this feat for free.

Now a plain Bard will give 4d6 sonic damage to his allies. Use these below tricks to enhance it further. Note if you use a “combine songs” you can still give the sonic damage to you and allies and use normal inspire courage to get the attack bonus and damage.

----------------------------------------------

Tricks

Vest of Legends (DMGII, 16,000gp) treated as five levels higher for inspire courage, (Allows you to get +5 inspire courage at lvl 15)
Badge of Valor (MIC, 1,400gp) 3/day increase inpirse courage bonus by 1 for duration of the bardic music use. Swift Action Use
Inspirational Boost (CAdv/Spell Compedium) Bard lvl 1 spell, swift action, increases inpsire courage bonuses by +1, lasts 1 round if you do not start your inspire courage song, lasts till the song is ended. Note if you want to use with Badge of Valor you must use an extended version of this due to both working only for 1 round, both are swift actions, thus to stack them you need to extend Inspirational Boost.
Song of the Heart (Eberron Campaign Setting) +1 bonus to Inspire Courage
Words of Creation (Book of Exalted Deeds, Exalted) take 3d4 non lethal damage. Double the effect of your bardic music. Whether this does the base +4, or the amount after Song of the Heart, Badge of Valor, Items, etc is debatable.
Mandolin (Complete Adventurer, Masterwork Instrument) +1 to Attack, -1 from Damage for Inspire Courage, can cast spells while still singing if no verbal, somatic, or focus components. Daconic inspiration works on the bonus to attack you get from Inspire Courage, thus the Mandolin will increase the sonic damage done by 1d6 with no loss.
Combine Songs from Warchanter 5 (Complete Warrior) allows you to use two bardic music at once, do not need to use a standard action to maintain them like the Seeker of the Song combine songs. The Masterwork Drums in Complete Adventurer also allow you spellcasting if no focus, verbal, or somatic components.
Warrior Skalad 1 (Races of Faerun) you gain uses of each bardic music ability (except Inspire Heroism) as soon as you have the base amount of perform ranks.
Song of the White Raven: The bonus for your inspire courage stacks your bards, crusader, and Warblade levels together. If you are in a White Raven stance you can do inspire courage as a swift action (additionally if you have the Warchanter combine songs you can do the sonic damage inspire courage and normal inspire courage as a swift action.)
Divine Inspiration (Dragon 333 p85) Your Bard and Cleric levels stack for what bardic music is available for you (note though your number of bardic uses doesn’t go up with cleric levels). Perform is always a class skill for you.
Initiate of Milil, Champions of Valor, stacks your levels in Cleric, Paladin, and Bard for what Bardic Music you have available (note though your number of bardic uses doesn’t go up with class levels)
Devoted Performer your paladin and bard levels stack for smite damage and the number of bardic music uses you have per day.
Lingering Song (CAdv p111) Your music that normally lasts 5 rounds after you stop singing now last 10 rounds after you stop singing (1 minute)
Battlecaster: Cast bard spells in Medium Armor
creaking cacophony (3rd lvl Bard and Druid spell in the Spell compendium) 40 ft spread, range medium, standard action, people in this area have vulnerability to sonic damage (50% more sonic damage)



More ideas here
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=795369

Sample build (semi optimized)
Class A Class B
Bard 1 Crusader 1
Bard 2 Fighter 1
Sorcerer 1 Crusader 2
Bard 3 Fighter 2
War Chanter 1 Crusader 3
War Chanter 2 Crusader 4
War Chanter 3 Crusader 5
War Chanter 4 Crusader 6
War Chanter 5 Crusader 7
Virtuoso 1 Crusader 8
Virtuoso 2 Crusader 9
Virtuoso 3 Crusader 10
Virtuoso 4 Crusader 11
Virtuoso 5 Crusader 12
Virtuoso 6 Crusader 13
Virtuoso 7 Crusader 14
Virtuoso 8 Crusader 15
Warrior Skalad 1 Crusader 16
Virtuoso 9 Crusader 17
Virtuoso 10 Crusader 18


1 Song of White Raven
1 (Human) Battlecaster
1 (Flaw) Stone Power
3 Draconic heritage: battle or emerald dragon
6 Words of Creation
9 Draconic inspiration
12 Lingering Performance
15 Cleave
18 Open
Fighter 1 Combat Expertise
Fighter 2 Weapon Focus

Can also do kobold real easily due to the kobld substitution level.

Ramza00
2007-07-26, 12:42 AM
Gestalt Supermount (requires Dragon 325 else see below)
Like all supermount builds it is late starting as in ecl 6 and above.
any race unlike halfing for normal supermount
Ranger 1/Paladin 5/Beastmaster 1/X 13//
Wizard 20
1 Skill Focus Handle Animal
3 Devoted Tracker,Complete Adventurer
6 Theurgic Mount (Arcane Stacks with Mount levels) Dragon 325
9 Theurgic Bond (Arcane Stacks with Animal companion levels) Dragon 325
12 Free or Dragon Steed, Draconomicon
15 Free but Companion Spellbound is nice for now your creature only has to be within 30 feet of you instead of 5 feet for spell sharing, PHB2
18 Free
Ranger 1 Track
Paladin 4 Free
Wizard 5 Give up for Paladin Mount also reciving Familar Bonuses as in Champion's of Valor Web Enhancement)
Wizard 10 Free (but extend spell is good)
Wizard 15 Free (but persistent spell is great)
Wizard 20 Free


Subsitution Options
*The 3 subsituion options (High One Warrior-Wizard) in Champions of Valor Web Enhancement for Wizards. The main one is Familar Mount which combines your Mount and Familar.
*Holy Warrior from Complete Champion. Give up paladin spellcasting for bonus feats at lvls 4,8, 12, 16, 20. Since you are only 5 lvls in this is a free feat.
*Celestial Mount from Planar Handbook (I believe it is called Celestial Mount) give up remove disease to apply the Celestial Template to your mount.

If you do Human or a race that grants a bonus feat (or flaws), bonded familar from PHB2 will allow your familar who is now also your mount and animal companion to take a hit that would drop you to less than 0 hit points if he is within 30 feet of you.

Imagine at lvl 15. You have a dragon who has the benefits of an 18th lvl Animal Companion, a 15th lvl Dragon Mount, and a 15th lvl Familar. Thus a gold wyrmling would have 8 hd naturally, 4 from mount, 12 from AC for a total of 24 thus 6 feats and 2 epic feats (one of your epic feats may be used for your 2nd improved rapidstrike). Natural Strength of 25 (17+2+6), Natural Dex of 16 (10+6), Natural Armor of 33 (7+6+12+8), all the mount, ac, and familar benefits as well as the celesital template.

Imagine a persistent wraithstrike (shared with the dragon, dragon must remain nearby all day within 30 feet thus will probably be turn into a pseudodragon during off time via alter self and reduce person. Reduce Person works due to Share Spells even though it normally only works on humanoids).

First round Wizard
the wizard casts a extended blood wind on his dragon (swift action)
the wizard casts a dimension door, greater on himself and the dragon (standard action)
the wizard uses his move action to teleport him and his dragon. The wizard can't take any more actions after using this move action until his next turn but according to dimension door and dimension door greater his dragon as a willing creature doesn't have this limitation and thus has all his actions (move action)

First round Dragon (who waits in the initative order to go after the wizard).
Uses his full round action to full attack with blood wind. He can make a total of 13 attacks (1 bite, 2 claws, 2 wings, 4 rapidstrike claws, 4 rapidstrike wings), these are ranged attacks due to blood wind, but they also get the benefit of wraithstrike due to how blood wind is worded. (full round action), he power attacks his full bab.
Dragon still has his swift/immediate action which he doesn't use. (swift action)

Second Round Wizard
Wizard casts Spell A via his (standard action)
Wizard cast Spell B via Belt of Battle, Rod of Quicken, Quicken Spell or Swift action spell (Swift Action)
Wizard teleports via Dimension Door Greater (move action)

Second Round Dragon
Dragon full attacks again via Blood Wind and Wraithstrike.

Third Round Wizard
Wizard casts extend bloodwind again and the cycle repeats itself.

Without Dragon 325 you have this build (where I got lots of my tips)
http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13055186&postcount=10

Its the Dragonriders of Pern with all the glory of full casting wizard

Note you have a nice case of MAD (Int of 16, Con, Dex, and Cha are about equally tied, can drop wis and strength), thus don't focus on save or X spells with wizard and your saves won't be as high as normal paladins due to medium ocre charisma

Roog
2007-07-26, 01:17 AM
I like...
Warblade//Feat Rogue
Warblade//Factorum
Swashbuckler//Feat Rogue
Swashbuckler//Factorum
Swashbuckler//Scout
with maybe some Duelist or Dervish (if swashbuckler) etc on the left, or Thief Acrobat, Uncanny Trickster, Exemplar, or similar on the right.

I.e. combinations that give a jack-of-all-trades type character without (too much) focus on magic. Plenty of skills with reasonable combat ability, plenty of mobility, and a few useful abilities.

It's probably far from optimal, but I like the flavor.

BardicDuelist
2007-07-26, 01:35 AM
Is Artificer/Wizard just too cheesy to be mentioned? You're squishy, but who cares?

I always liked Swashbuckler/Duelist//Wizard: Good skills, HD, and good INT synergy. Scout//Druids are basically a one man party.

Fishy
2007-07-26, 01:51 AM
Already has, BardicDuelist: or rather, Artificer/Archivist was.

I've been cruising through the variants list: I don't know what your DM will let you get away with, but as long as we're gestalting, we might as well.

Smite Cleric/Feat Rogue lets you get close to out-paladining the paladin, complete with full saves, trapfinding, a bucket of skills, and full divine casting.

Planar Ranger/Animal Companion Sorcerer gives you a celestial pet at level 1, full saves, full BaB and more skills and hitpoints than a regular sorc. You probably make yourself into a blaster, and use Point Blank Shot and your favored enemy bonuses on your rays.

And everyone loves the Paladin/Sorcerer, but the Paladin/Wilder can do most of the same things with full armor and a shield, and some of the psychic buffs are rather nice for a melee character.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-07-26, 02:51 AM
I guess I'll join on the thread necromancy bandwagon...

Warblade 20//Psion (Egoist) 20 is great (if not very flavorful). Int synergy, the psionic focus works superb with Diamond Mind strikes--using the focus to take 15 on a Concentration check means almost always making it--, self-buffing in medium armor, lots of feats, decent skills, good saves. Between Dispel Psionics and Iron Heart Surge, it's hard to keep you out of the fight for more than a round. The powers and maneuvers can really compliment each other nicely if chosen right.

The Mormegil
2007-07-26, 12:53 PM
BEWARE THE SIGNED BEAR!
Though opinable on interpretation, due to Gestalt rules not being that well written, this is what I made. If you can manage to do your counts, you'll know what I mean...

ILLUMIAN
Divinator 1/Duskblade 1
Divinator 2/Druidic Avager 1
Divinator 3/Duskblade 2
Mystic Theurge 1/Duskblade 3
Mystic Theurge 2/Spellsword 1
Mystic Theurge 3/Abjurant Champion 1
Mystic Theurge 4/Ultimate Magus 1
Loremaster 1/Ultimate Magus 2
Loremaster 2/Bear Fighter 1
Divine Oracle 1/Abjurant Champion 2
Divine Oracle 2/Rage Mage 1
Mystic Theurge 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 1
Mystic Theurge 6/Fochlucan Lyrist 2
Mystic Theurge 7/Fochlucan Lyrist 3
Mystic Theurge 8/Fochlucan Lyrist 4
Mystic Theurge 9/Fochlucan Lyrist 5
Mystic Theurge 10/Fochlucan Lyrist 6
Abjurant Champion 3/Fochlucan Lyrist 7
Abjurant Champion 4/Fochlucan Lyrist 8
Abjurant Champion 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 9

Now:
If I got it right, the Gestalst character gets the best bab at each level.
This means that if I go: Wizard 1/Duskblade 1 I get bab +1, but it also means that if I continue Wizard 2/Druidic Avager 1 I get bab +2, due to the second wizard level.
This leads to +20 Bab, and therefore 20th caster level on every class that got a CL by Abjurant Champion (Martial Casting)
Illumian Improved Power Sign (krau) lets you actually cast some 2nd level spells, getting you in Mystic Theurge at lvl 4.
Gestalt rules limit the number of CL you can get at any level to a maximum of your character level, but it does not limit you to one caster level of the same type per level, allowing you to delay caster progression and doubling it later.
Bardic Knowledge to enter Fochlucan Lyrist is the same as Loremaster's lore.
Evasion is the same as Divine Oracle's Precognition.
Rage Mage allows you to cast in rage, Natural Spell works well with Bear Fighter.
Illumian power word aeshkrau allows you a Str-based casting in ALL your classes. Reduces MAD and enjoys raging.
Adding up CLs you got easely a Divinator 20/Druidic Avager 20, plus the rest of CL for Duskblade. They are 18... BAN evokation, you can have that from other sources. Definitly.
Basically, this is a full Batman, full DruidZilla, full Gish. And what's worse, it's not MAD, it's full Strength dependent.

I'm sure there's something wrong in this build, but I don't think that it is something that needs more than a few feats or maybe a few less CL in Duskblade.

Ramza00
2007-07-26, 01:08 PM
Mystic theurge and F Lyrist fall under this line in the gestalt rules.



A gestalt character can’t combine two prestige classes at any level, although it’s okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class. Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations-such as the arcane trickster, mystic theurge, and eldritch knight-should be prohibited if you’re using gestalt classes, because they unduly complicate the game balance of what’s already a high-powered variant. Because it’s possible for gestalt characters to qualify for prestige classes earlier than normal, the game master is entirely justified in toughening the prerequisites of a prestige class so it’s available only after 5th level, even for gestalt characters.

Now some people argue it isnt a flat out right banned but instead a should comment (remember this is a variant rule system thus the DM gets to make up all the rules). That said you should follow the ban on such classes.
1

If you don't ban such classes, Anima Mage, Ruby Knight Vindicator, Saphire Hiearch make better doubly classes than Mystic Theurge since there benefits are passive and they synergize real well. (Anima Mage, persist 3 spells per day of any type arcane or divine, binder benefits, and full caster you can enter about ecl 3 sign me up)

Draz74
2007-07-26, 01:14 PM
@Mormegil:

Most people don't count Gestalt working that way (e.g. for your BAB calculation). Rather, they'd say, "OK, you have 9 levels where your better BAB progression is "good progression," 8 levels where your better BAB progression is "medium," and 3 levels where both your BAB progressions are "poor". That comes out to ... +16."

Or they use fractional BAB, which comes out about the same as the above method, maybe one point better.

Ramza00
2007-07-27, 12:34 AM
Duskblade 20//
brown bear natural lycanthrope 6 HD+3 LA/Bard 1/Sublime Chord 10

Full Duskblade, Full Sublime Chord, +16 Str, +2 Dex, +8 Con in hybrid form. Nice and simple build. brown bear has listen as a class skill, duskblade knowledge arcana, able learner helps with the rest. Duskblade 9 gives 3rd lvl spells.

Fishy
2007-07-28, 05:02 AM
Here's one I want to try. Ranger//Psion + Horizon Walker//Elocator = Super Happy Teleporty Fun Time. You have to set a lot of feats on fire, but you get nice BaB and saves, some decent passive bonuses in a lot of odd situations, and the ability to fly around <i>dimension door</i>-ing at will raining arrowy and/or psionic death.

The vanilla version should work fine, but the min/maxed build might take Fighter1 to get enough feats to get the Psionic Shot Tree *and* qualify for Elocator before level 9. <i>Hustle</i>+Psionic Meditation + Greater Psionic Shot = Love. Further min/maxing might be achievable by taking alternating Elocator/Horizon Walker levels with Psion/Elocator levels, which screws with your hp and saves, but keeps you from losing any manifester levels, but that's shady enough for a DM call, I think.

Alternatively, you could take TWF for your Ranger Combat Style, which would let you make use of more of your Elocator feats and class features: but then you're relying on d8 hp, light armor and a light shield to keep you alive. Don't know if that works.

The Mormegil
2007-07-28, 06:52 AM
Meh, it seems I had a bit of misunderstanding there.
Well, I think I'm happier now that I know that Gestalt isn't that broken...
But anyway I was just considering how much it could be done with that variant, and since I'm not planning to play that ... thing... I thought that it was fun trying to max out a Gestalt build. And since it's more like a suggestion than a rule, this is theorically possible as much as Uber-charger.

-- thanks all!

gooddragon1
2007-07-28, 07:21 AM
Psion||Wizard is a fun day in the park
Monk||Druid is interesting as is Druid||Cleric

tarbrush
2007-07-28, 12:00 PM
I'm a big fan of Druid10//XXX/Warshaper5/Master of Many Forms10

You're a full spellcaster, you have 15+ wildshapes a day including dragons and assume supernatural ability. Plus you've got 5 levels to play with. I like ninja and Pounce barb. Simply for the fun of charginh somoene with an invisible bear.

axraelshelm
2007-07-28, 04:25 PM
telepath psion with pilot from dragon star. Space is very open to the mind. Its working quite well not the most powerful but very good in a setting of starships, speeders, and a whole range of guns and firepower to be picked up.

Ramza00
2007-08-08, 01:49 PM
Psion 5/Anarchic Innitate 10/X 5//
Wilder 20.


Lots of Power points.
Wilder gives wild surge of +6, Anarchic Innitate gives an additional wild surge of +2 that stacks. A total of 8 wild surge for all your powers, throw on a circlet of wild surge from MIC and you can wild surge a total of +9. That is a huge boost. Take that Complete Psionic Feat which allows you to lose only 1/2 your wilder level of power points if you enervate.
If in the Eberron Campaign Settting, take the Mark of the Dauntless feat to be immune to daze including enervating daze from wild surge. Effectively this causes you to surge with no penalty. You may occasionally lose pp due to enervate but you gain more free power points through surging anyway.
Use the Educated Wilder Variant located here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) to get 4 expanded knowledges instead of volitale mind. Remember you can apply these 4 expanded knowledges on your psion side, thus allowing you to select higher level powers since you get these EKs on odd levels and wilder normally gets powers on even levels.
Using Anarchic Innitate Chaotic Surge with Empower Power metapsionic feat means your damage spells will always do 100% damage, 150% damage, 200% damage, or 250% damage.
Uses Vigor+Share Pain+Sharing both powers with psicrystal to get +10 temp hit points per power point to deal with your low hit points.
Uses Metamorphsis+Wild Surge to assume huge hd forms to deal with your bad physical stats/low fort/reflex save. Remember unlike Polymorph, Metamorphsis does not have a requirement that you must have the number of hd for the form you assume, just the manifester level. Thus at lvl 20 you can assume a form with 29 hd.
Earth Power from ROS will reduce the cost of manifesting every power by 1 pp. Torc of Power Preservation in SRD will do the same. Can be nasty when combine with Bestow Power, Wild Surge, and/or twin power.
Use Twin Power+Wild Surge combine with the Soul Crystal Power located in Magic of Incarnum. Due to Wild Surge giving you free power points to pay for the Twin Power, you can actually "generate" power points, for twin doubles the effect. You spend 13+Twice your Manifester Level in PP. You recieve Four times your manifester level in PP. Also with Soul Crystal you can give these crystals to people who can't normally manifest. Yes the party fighter wants to turn into a treant, yes the party rogue into a dark tentacle plus plenty of other psionic goodies. With such a boost in manifester level you have caught up in power to the other casters. Go here for more ideas
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=624041&au=0&uid=0
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=487972
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-514529

Inane-Fedaykin
2007-08-08, 07:49 PM
I played a Rogue/Wizard/Archmage/Shadowdancer/Frostmage into level 40 the one time I played in a gestalt game (it went on for the better part of a year at seriously exelerated xp).

The char could do anything. Absolutely anything. Not that that says much, it was basicly a blaster mage with something like 20 skill points a level.

Sornas
2007-08-08, 08:47 PM
I quite enjoy the halfling Rogue/Unarmed Swordsage that I'm playing in a tabletop game right now. ^^ Not meant to be a huge power character, but it's quite fun as an acrobatic/show-off character.

Basically just focused around using maneuvers to get sneak attack and manipulate the battlefriend.

woc33
2007-08-09, 05:30 AM
there's one combination i always wanted to try, a monk 20//warlock 20 ("monklock"), with the right build you're basically a Z-fighter. :smallbiggrin: now all you gotta do is homebrew a saiyan race and you just made yourself a nice super saiyan. :smallwink:

Ramza00
2007-08-20, 12:44 PM
came up with this last night for Gestalt.

8 levels of Factotum for Cunning Surge. (3 inspiration points and you get an extra standard action.)

lots of Font of Inspiration feat
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606

A spellcaster (doesn't have to be full, a bard will work, full is better though) with at least 4th lvl spells, and can grab a conjuration teleport spell. Grab the reserve feat dimensional jaunt.

Telflammar Shadowlord (Unapproachable East) or Crinti shadow marauder (Shinning South) prestige class for the Shadow Pounce ability.

Use Cunning Surge to generate lots of standard actions in one round+use dimensional jaunt to teleport as a standard action. When you teleport the shadow pounce goes off and you make a full attack action for each teleport.

= very dead people unless someone has that delaying teleport spell as protection.

This build isn't doable with the shadow pounce until 10th lvl (Criti Shadow Maurder doesn't get shadow pounce till 10th lvl, Factotum must be 8, 4th lvl spells requires you have 7 lvls in a fullcaster or more). It gets better though the further passed 10th lvl you are, this is because you don't have to sacrifice levels of spellcasting to do CSM and get Factotum 8 for cunning surge.

A sample 12th lvl build (Human race)
1 Mounted Combat
1 Stealthy
3 Font of Inspiration
6 Font of Inspiration
9 Dimensional Jaunt
12 Font of Inspiration

Factotum 5/CSM 5/Factotum 2
//
Archivist 9/Factotum 1/Archivst 2

11 points of Inspiration thus you can do 3 extra standard actions, with 2 flaws it would be 9 more points of inspiration for another 3 extra standard actions. 11 lvl archivist casting thus 6th lvl spells.

geez3r
2007-08-20, 01:17 PM
Binder/ Warlock. A little preparation early in the morning and I'm good to go for the next 24 hours. Not terribly powerful, but it absolutely oozes flavor and you can get some really cool effects and visuals going depending on what vestiges you bind and what invocations you know. Very little book-keeping but a wide array of unlimited use powers (for the most part). And best of all, simple.

blue_fenix
2007-08-20, 01:17 PM
I'm just about to start in a PbP game in which I will be playing a Dragonfire Adept//Barbarian. Odds are I'll end up not even multiclassing either of those at all, except maybe for 2 fighter levels for feats. The key idea here is that rage increases Con, which thereby increases the save DC for the dragonfire adept's breath weapon. Once I start picking up some of the nicer breath effects, combined with Ability Focus(breath weapon), I can basically choose each round between nigh-guarenteed battlefield control, AoE damage with damaging breath effects, or single-target melee damage. Barbarian d12 hit die, medium armor, and DR all make a huge difference to Dfire Adept's survivability.

Ramza00
2007-11-19, 02:54 PM
Factotum 20//Archivist 10/Hatharn 10

Lots of Fonts of Inspiration (thus starting level 8 lots of standard actions in one normal round), being able to cast all the divine spells in the game spontaneously, all good saves, 6+int skill points, every skill as a class skill, huge int synergy, circle magic, a cohort.
-------

The 3.5 version of Hatharn (most recent version located in Players Guide to Faerun) is awesome combine with Acorn of Far Travel and archivist or wizard.

Acorn of Far Travel is located here
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fw/20040710a


Acorn of Far Travel
Transmutation
Level: Druid 2, Ranger 2
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Touch
Target: One acorn
Duration: 1 day/level or until expended
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

Acorn of far travel must be cast upon an acorn that is still attached to a living oak tree. As you cast the spell, the spirit of the oak tree wells into the acorn, which detaches into your hand once the casting is complete. As long as you carry the acorn (and as long as the acorn is not stored in an extradimensional space like a bag of holding), you are considered to be standing under that oak tree's canopy (and thus within an area of forested terrain). Whenever you cast a spell that has additional effects when cast in forested terrain (such as deadfall, creaking cacophony, fey ring, or splinterbolt), you can choose to use the acorn as an additional material component for that spell. Doing so consumes the acorn immediately, but the spell's effects manifest as if you stood in forested terrain no matter what your actual location. Likewise, you can use the acorn as an oak tree for spells like tree stride or transport via plants; this also consumes the acorn.

Dryads gain an additional benefit from this spell. If a dryad spellcaster casts this spell on an acorn harvested from her bonded oak tree, she is considered to be in contact with her tree at all times, despite the actual distance between her and the tree. A dryad spellcaster can thus use this spell to travel great distances from her tree without growing sick.

You can have only one acorn of far travel spell in effect at any one time. If you cast it more than once, any acorn of far travel spells you may have already in effect immediately end. The magic of the spell is not bonded to you, though. You can pass the infused acorn to others, allowing them to gain the benefits of this spell.

Material Component: A fallen leaf taken from the oak tree from which the acorn is to be harvested.
Rashemi Spirit Magic (a first lvl ability of Hathran) allows you to spontaneously cast any spell you know when in the border of Rashemi. The Acorn of far travel treats you as being in Rashemi. That means if you enter the prestige class as an archivist you can spontaneously cast all the archivist spells that are in your spellbook, same thing with wizard and Hatharn (though Archivist has all the divine spells as potential known spells as well as being able to cast Acorn of Far Travel by himself). A wizard though can use an acorn of far travel that the party rogue cast from a wand though.

Hathrans also has access to Circle Magic but as a divine or arcane spellcaster. Thus she can spontaneously cast the blasphemy line of spells with a caster level of above 40.

Jannex
2007-11-19, 05:47 PM
I kind of like Ranger//Swordsage. Lets see...

Full BAB? Check.
All good saves? Check.
Synergizing Ability scores? Check.
Free TWF tree, and ways to make TWFing actually useful (Tiger Claw maneuvers)? Check.
Decent skills, and a good skill list? Check.
Some fun class abilities, AND a full complement of martial maneuvers? Check!

For added fun, make it Scout 3/Ranger 17//Swordsage 20. You only lose one point of BAB, and gain precision damage, fast movement, Uncanny Dodge, and trapfinding--and a few extra skill points. I kinda want to play this now...

Ramza00
2007-11-28, 10:38 PM
Idea taken from this thread
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-792530

Fighter 6 with Dungeoncrasher from Dugeonscape
Bloodstorm Blade 2 for the ability to treat ranged attacks as melee attacks (you will probably want more than 2 levels of bloodstorm blade)
Master Thrower 1, for Palm Throw
Power Attack and Improved Bullrush which are required feats
Knockback Feat, requires Size Large or Powerful Build trait, treat your melee attacks (and now your ranged attacks through Bloodstorm blade) as bullrush attempts allowing you to use dungeoncrasher multiple times per round.
Some form of Flight through items, sp[ells, or race allows yout to bullrush people into the ground since the ground is a solid object
Barbarian 1 for pounce, you can now throw weapons with a charge due to bloodstorm blade 2
Shocktrooper Feat for the ability to cause people to trip when you bullrush people into one another, the ability to move people left or right when you bull rush them, the ability to sack your ac for bonuses to power attack and thus bonuses to your bull rush attempt
Twfing chain for more attacks (which are doubled via palmthrow)
Stormguard Warrior allows you to make melee touch attacks (which are now ranged touch attacks through Bloodstorm blade) in place of melee attacks. You do no damage with these melee touch attacks, you can use these touch attacks to bull rush, and when you bullrush someone into the ground or wall it isn't your attack that is doing the damage but instead the bullrush.
---------------

What this boils down to is you flying as high as possible on the first round, Running.
On the second round you fly down (but no all the way down) doing a charge action and releasing daggers, darts, shrukeins whatever. These attacks are ranged attacks which bullrush people into the ground. You can also trip them and get a free attack through improved trip feat.

Thanks to palm throw, and two weapon fighting it is quite easy to get 8 attacks+Which are doubled via palm throw.
16*(8d6+3*Str Modifier)= alot of hurt.

Throw on a tattoo of expansion or a potion of enlarge person and you can bull rush even larger enemies.

Drider
2007-11-28, 10:41 PM
wizard/monk focusing on int and using spells to simulate various martial arts maneuvers, and haveing the unkillability of monk+spells of wizard

Bauglir
2007-11-28, 11:29 PM
At the moment, I'm fond of a Warforged Sorcerer/Fighter. Hear me out, now. We take every Sorcerer variant we can think of that doesn't help casting, and we talk our DM into letting a Sorcerer know -1 spell at every other level. So what we do is, we grab Stalwart Sorcerer (Complete Mage), and Spell Shield (Dungeonscape), trading our familiar, a skill point, and one of our highest level known spells for the ability to trade out spell slots to lower damage taken, bonus hit points, and a Weapon Focus feat.

Now we have a choice to make. If we're starting at low level, this is especially important (if not, just go for Adamantine Body, which ends up being more effective past level 12). If we want to be able to cast the occasional spell at low level, we'll want Mithral Body and we'll have to talk our DM into allowing Battle Sorcerer from Unearthed Arcana, and we can stay Fighter all the way through (or full BAB prestige class of choice). However, a more optimal choice after level 10 may be Adamantine Body and no Battle Sorcerer. Instead, we have 35% arcane spell failure for a bunch of levels. However, by level 12, we've got Twilight on our armor and 7 levels of Spellsword, meaning we're now ahead of the Fighter version by +3 AC and DR 3 at the cost of 2 feats (though you'll want to take something other than Fighter for level 5, of course. Psychic Warrior if you're willing to be behind a point of BAB, or Barbarian if your DM will let you use spell slots on things other than spells while raging, and grab Pounce).

After that, head into Warforged Juggernaut to give yourself a whole set of nifty immunities, but be warned! For two levels, you'll be vulnerable to ability damage and drain with literally no way to heal it short of Miracle or Wish (maybe limited Wish).

Finally, when available, tack on that Sorcerer variant for a single domain. I recommend Strength. You'll get that 1/day domain spell of the highest level, even though you couldn't otherwise cast it, since it's kept apart from your normal spellcasting.

You'll be wanting the Warforged racial substitution Fighter 1 level for the Initiative bonus, as you'll likely be lacking in Dex. After that, it's pretty much smooth sailing with a decent-AC tank with ludicrous HP and a ridiculously high damage output with the right spell selection. You will, however, want to invest in vital utility spells such as Fly first, though, to overcome situations that you wouldn't be able to deal full damage in. And Arcane Strike is a must. Keep Cha at your highest spell level +9, so you can cast, but remember, you won't be using those highest level slots for anything other than Spell Shield and Arcane Strike anyway, as you lack any known spells, and besides, you won't cast anything with a save anyway.

Ramza00
2007-11-28, 11:41 PM
For melee/sorcerer I recommend doing 4 lvls of Paladin or one of its variants. Cha to Saves plus turn attempts to fuel divine might.

Do the divine companion subsition option located in complete champion rather than the option in dungeonscape. Bonuses to saves and ac is better than the damage reduction like ability.

Hell you can make a Melee/Sorcerer who doesn't even cast spells, instead using spells to fuel other abilities such as arcane strike (for the boost to damage and attack), as well as divine companion (for the boost of saves and ac). Stalwart Sorcerer gives you +2 hit points per level thus making your d10 a d14 or a d12 a d16. Or you can cast long lasting buff spells such as alter self and overland flight. Dragon Lineage feats are also nice since they don't have ACF and many are swift actions (including one that gives your allies a luck bonus to saving throws0

dyslexicfaser
2007-11-29, 12:18 AM
I want to try out a fighter//psywar/warmind.

With the right feat/class skill setup (TWF tree, improved trip, high sword low axe, karmic, double hit, sweeping strike, cleave, etc.) you'll be psionic pouncing on an enemy, and hitting him with sword-axe-trip-sword, and then following up with another sword-axe on their prone form for every +6 BAB you have. Consider as well that if there is another enemy you're threatening at the same time, you'll be 'sweeping striking' over and doing the same to him. And any time you are hit with a melee attack, you get a sword-axe routine against your attacker, as well as any time you kill someone you will be cleaving over to a new enemy.

You could start shouting out things like "10 HIT COMBO!" every time you get a turn.

thorgrim29
2007-11-29, 12:54 AM
I want to try warblade/swordsage once.... its a bit MAD, but you get to know almost every single maneuver, maybe not the most optimal build, but then you can boast you master 8 of the 9 paths (multiclass into crusader and then you know em all)

koldstare
2008-03-16, 02:36 AM
Wizard 20//Swashbuckler 10(Complete Warrior)/Bladesinger* 10

* not the Bladesinger listed in Complete warrior, the one as it is in Races of Faerun

With this build you get full BAB and Full casting with the ability to cast a standard action spell with every full attack action. only MAD is int/dex since you get your int on dam rolls with swashbucklers and your int on AC with bladesinger with the advantage of being able to wear light (and medium with 1 feat but you lose some interesting Swashbuckler abilities) armor with an extra attack you even get to take 10 on concentration checks to cast defensively

example: round 1 5 attacks then time stop then lots of buffs round 2 5 attacks disjoin, repeat round 2 or use damaging spells or summons as necessary

Talic
2008-03-16, 02:55 AM
Tauric Template + Dm Hitting you on the head. With a Hammergun.

Basically, it can work down to: +4 HD, +3 LA, +40-70 to all physical stats, and a buttload of abilities that no character under level 30 should have.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-03-16, 12:09 PM
I want to try warblade/swordsage once.... its a bit MAD, but you get to know almost every single maneuver, maybe not the most optimal build, but then you can boast you master 8 of the 9 paths (multiclass into crusader and then you know em all)Toss Master of the Nine onto the Warblade side and pick up Devoted Spirit, to get all 9 disciplines. Not perfectly optimal, but awesome.

I'm currently planning a paladin/gray guard//swordsage from a usually evil race focused on shadow hand and using a spiked chain. Picture Wolfwood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_D._Wolfwood), but melee spec'd.

Also, DON'T NECRO!