Is this 'pricing' of class abilities fair?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

In our gaming group we always try weird and unusual game types, from gestalt and monster games to homebrew-only arenas. A few months ago I'd proposed a point-buy classless system that we didn't end up using. Our new GM now rebalanced that system and will run a game in it. Here's what he's come up with;



Commoners!!!
We all begin as 20th level commoners with 10 in all ability scores as our base chassis.

Point-buy
We get 210 points (10 plus 10 per level) to spend however we like on the following:
HD: each point increases die size by one step for all levels, max d12.
Attributes: each point increases a single ability score by 1. The only other ways to increase ability scores is via class abilities and spells. No exceptions.
BAB: each point increases BAB by 1, max total BAB is +20.
Skills: each point gives +2 skillpoints/level, max +8. All skills are class skills.
Saves: each point increases one save by +2 or two saves by +1, max total per save is +12.
Feats: each point is one bonus feat. Leadership and Landlord are not available.
Spells: each point is a spell slot or a spell known in a given class. You can't have more spell slots or spells known in a level than in the previous level. Free spells known and bonus spell slots don't exist. Cantrips are free and at-will if your class has them. Max level is 9 for spells known and spell slots.
Maneuvers/Invocations: each point counts as a maneuver, stance or invocation known. Prerequisites still need to be satisfied, if any.
Class: each point counts as a level in a class for the purposes of caster level, initiator level, and class abilities that can't be bought via other means. Max total level is 20.

Rewards
Bling: We get any 3 permanent items of our choice, each with 3 specials plus their standard enhancement.
Expenses: We get 50.000 gp in expendables, magic or otherwise.
Retinue: We get three CR 14 allies as our retinue. We can take them in fights or leave them to run our estate.
Estate: We each get a castle, mage tower, temple, underground lair or similar base of operations, with up to 200 NPC followers of levels 2-5. The base starts as nonmagical, made of normal materials and unfurnished of a size of one hundred 40-foot cubes. Our followers and retinue can run it and furnish it via their skills and abilities while we adventure.





1) Are these rules balanced for a 20th level game? I.e. more or less balanced than normal character creation?

2) Are these rules fair for lower-level games? I.e. more or less balanced than normal character creation?

3) What would you suggest for improving these rules?

4) Would you play by these rules in a PbP game?

[Kurald Galain]

Wow, this gives some silly results fast. Let's see, for 210 points,


For 4 points, I've now got +80 hit points, which is the maximum.
For 3 more points, I've now got +120 skill points, which is also the maximum.
For 21 more points, I've got all saves maxed out at +14 (including three feats for +2 to each).
For 40 more points, I've set my primary and secondary ability score at 30. You didn't specify a cap for ability scores, by the way. Most classes don't care about tertiary scores that much, especially since I've already got maxed out hit points, skill points, and saves.
Now if I want to play a caster, I spend 20 points for a caster level of 20. This includes the wizard's spellbook ability, since it can't be bought via other means. Then I'll spend 72 points to cast eight spells per day of each level, and for the 70 points left over, I know literally all the warlock invocations in the book.
Alternatively, if I want to play a non-caster, I spend 20 points for a BAB of 20, and 72 points to know eight maneuvers of each level (which is pretty much all of them), and 70 bonus feats.


And that's just me going down your list without thinking about optimization much. Are you sure this is what you want? :smallbiggrin:

[Threadnaught]

1: It potentially creates more powerful high level characters than exist currently.

2: Level 1 characters are some of the weakest available, but still abusable.

3: No idea.

4: I'd run a game using these rules, just because they're interesting. If a little unbalanced compared to Core D&D.


Edit: Forgot to build a "character".

4 points to HD for d12HD, this is only one time right?
8 points to Intelligence
1 point for a level in Wizard
2 points for Cantrip slots
1 point for Cantrips known
2 points for 1st level slots
2 points for 1st level known

That's 1st level, then at each level, more levels in Wizard, Spells and Spellslots is all I'd need.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

1) A 20th level character's ability scores normally look like this with items: 34/26/20/16/16/16. That's without any other bonuses they can pile up via various shenanigans. I don't think that an array of 30/30/10/10/10/10 will hurt anything.

2) With wizard 20, your invocation CL is zero, and you don't even have access to least invocations (which comes at warlock 1 - the others come at higher levels of warlock, with "dark" invocations coming in at 16th warlock level)

3) Free spells don't exist. You still have to pay for a spell even if you learn it from somewhere else (that was the first thing I asked about myself).

4) Not every initiator class gets every maneuver type. Crusaders for example only get a couple of styles.


Example wizard (which we based the number of points on)
8 spell slots/level plus 8 spells known/level was considered to be a good estimate for what a wizard would have from bonus intelligence and items for slots and scroll learning for spells. That's 144 points total. Another 24 points for maxed intelligence, another 8 points for fair constitution so he doesn't die in one blow, 2 points for will save. 5 levels of wizard, 10 levels of Incantatrix, 5 levels of Archmage, 6 bonus metamagic feats, 6 Easy Metamagics to replicate the effect of Incantatrixe's capstone (which was judged as "buyable" via feats), grand total 210. And that number of points was only borderline capable of paying for the "standard high mage" package.

[Kurald Galain]

1) A 20th level character's ability scores normally look like this with items: 34/26/20/16/16/16. That's without any other bonuses they can pile up via various shenanigans. I don't think that an array of 30/30/10/10/10/10 will hurt anything.
No, but since you didn't specify a cap, I can spend those 70 points on my primary ability as well, making it something like 90/40/10/10/10/10.



2) With wizard 20, your invocation CL is zero, and you don't even have access to least invocations (which comes at warlock 1 - the others come at higher levels of warlock, with "dark" invocations coming in at 16th warlock level)
Sure. Take a bunch of levels in Eldritch Theurge, then. Besides, I don't actually need invocations since I've got full spellcasting. Or spend those points on spells known.

See, I took 70 invocations to show how ridiculous this is. I don't think there are even 70 invocations printed. In practice you just need four or five of them, since the levels are effectively free (e.g. wizard 1 / warlock 1 / eldritch theurge 10 / anything that advances wizard 8, then pick a handful of invocations, boost your intelligence to 50 or so, max HP/SP/saves as above, and spend everything else on spells).

[Belial_the_Leveler]

You're going to end with an initiative of +0, 130 hit points, AC 10, saves of +12/+12/+12, arcane spell DC 30-39, invocation DC 10-14, 5 known invocations, no bonus metamagic, and 6 spells known/level, 5 spell slots/level.

So basically, if you lose initiative you're dead, you got almost half the spells/day and spells/known of a standard-rules wizard, all for a +7 to your spell DCs? A standard-rules fighter could probably take you in round 1.




See, I took 70 invocations to show how ridiculous this is
I don't see the problem. 1 invocation used/round, fight lasts 5 rounds = 5 invocations per fight. All you're getting is a bit higher versatility which the warlock needs to be more than low tier 3. Same thing with initiator classes.

[Kurald Galain]

You're really missing the point entirely.

+7 to spell DCs not enough? Fine, I'll spend a few more points (out of 210) and make it +14. Still not enough? Ok, how about +25 then. AC 10? No, I've got buff spells. Init +0? No, I've got Nerveskitter and can do the standard always-act-first combo out of spells known. Obviously nobody cares about the DC on invocations, they're there for such things like perma-flight and perma-invis since they're only one point each anyway. If you want to optimize further, there's numerous ways to add the stat of your choice to init, saves, attack rolls, and so on.

Hm, a straightforward build would be paladin 2 / sorcerer 18, then boost your charisma to 80 or so and you'll get +35 to all saves and to your spells' DC, and there's a few feats or spells that let you add it to AC and init as well.

Basically, what this system ensures is that anything you want optimized can be optimized to a truly ridiculous degree, and anything else can be dumped to zero. It also ensures there's less character diversity because of how cheap it is to get maxed-out hit points and saving throws. So at least that answers your first two questions with a resounding "NO".

[danzibr]

I really, really like this.

So presumably if you started a campaign at level 1, you'd have 20 points? 10 from base and 10 from level 1? And you'd need limitations on spells and stuff. Hmm... but what if you want to take a PrC? Do you have to advance as Commoner and then pick up abilities? I was thinking my main concern was the absurd amount of feats you can get, but... maybe it's not as much of an issue as I thought.

Also, what do you do for race? Judging by your rules, you don't get their stat bonuses.

[Sewercop]

In our gaming group we always try weird and unusual game types, from gestalt and monster games to homebrew-only arenas. A few months ago I'd proposed a point-buy classless system that we didn't end up using. Our new GM now rebalanced that system and will run a game in it. Here's what he's come up with;







1) Are these rules balanced for a 20th level game? I.e. more or less balanced than normal character creation?

2) Are these rules fair for lower-level games? I.e. more or less balanced than normal character creation?

3) What would you suggest for improving these rules?

4) Would you play by these rules in a PbP game?

1:no. Less and extremely so. Unless you find it balanced that everyone is superman+
2:Yes, in the way that all are equal. Yes, because all are equal.
3:Ditching them and start over
4:No, well yes.. Only to prove a point of it being bad.

This will only let players with a better understanding outshine others even more. Very easy to exploit.
And the rewards.. damn.. Three 14 cr cohorts.. Easier to break then the system itself.

I dont get it thou.. he\she misses incarnum,templates,races LA, etc

It`s bad, really really bad. And super easy to exploit.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

We tried to balance the system by giving just enough points to build a powerful wizard. Other builds that in standard rules ended up weaker than the wizard would cost less - and could use the extra points to boost their power. The SRD fighter for example costs a mere 40 points for ability scores, 10 BAB and 10 for its feats. It has 150 points left to boost its combat prowess to the point where the wizard can neither one-shot him nor could easily outfight him via buffs or summons.

A caster couldn't be more powerful; the more he tried to up his DCs, the fewer points he had for spells known/spells per day. And let's face it, saves are hardly optimal; even a DC of 50 (int of 62) faces a save of 12 + 10 ability +10 charisma + 2 feat +6 item = +40 on a tank using the standard rules. The tank using these rules will probably ignore spells allowing either saves or SR except from dedicated casters.



EDIT:
I'm gonna post some benchmark characters for comparison purposes soon.

[Kurald Galain]

And let's face it, saves are hardly optimal; even a DC of 50 (int of 62) faces a save of 12 + 10 ability +10 charisma + 2 feat +6 item = +40 on a tank using the standard rules.
Ok, so let's make it a DC of 60 (int of 82) like I suggested above. With 210 points that's easy enough. Also, there's plenty of no-SR spells to choose from.

[Zireael]

I'd like to see those benchmark characters, please :)

[Sewercop]

Saves dont matter really, this game only cares about who goes first. Then you are dead,trapped,gone, etc.
But it all depends on the system mastery of the players here.

You just need one that understands it slightly and your game breaks down.

[OldTrees1]

Well any point buy system will be open to abuse, a better question would be whether the abuse would be used.

Test characters:
Enchanter
Boost Cha to 20 for 9th level spells(10pts)
+8 Skills(4pts)
6 spell slots per spell level and 8 spells known per spell level(54pts + 72pts)
Caster level 20(20pts)
All Good saves(18pts)
Boost HD to d12(4pts is cheaper than 18 con)
Subtotal: 182
Boost Cha from 20 to 48(28pts)
Total: 210

Spell DC: 29+spell level

Warrior
Boost HD to d12(4pts)
+8 Skills(4pts)
All Good saves(18pts)

Time Stands Still, Avalanche of Blades, 3 Diamond Mind prereqs, Iron Heart Surge, 1 Iron Heart Prerequisite, Raging Mongoose, Wolf Pack Tactics, 2 Tiger Blood prereqs, White Raven Tactics, 1 White Raven prereq, +1 more

Initiator level 20(20pts Warblade Recharge, 7 maneuvers readied)
40 Bonus Feats(40pts)
Subtotal: 100
Pounce & Mountain Rage via Barbarian 1(1pt)
Initiator level 3(3pts Swordsage, 5 maneuvers readied)
6 Manuevers known(6pts some utility maneuvers)
Subtotal: 110
Str 50, Con 20, Dex 30, Int 20, Wis 20, Cha 20 (100pt)
Total: 210

The ease with which to boost spell DCs seems out of place considering the limits on saves. Also spells make the Enchanter obviously stronger than the Warrior. However as long as the DC balance was figured out, I expect the Warrior to still have fun.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Here's the gal we got as the all-around tank;

Miriam Dragonknight (the tank)
class: Bard 1/Paladin 2/Monk 2/Pious Templar 1/Arcane Duelist 3/Dragon Disciple 10 (20pt)
Chassis: Full BAB, max will/fort save, d12 hp (20pt)
Abilities: Str 58, Dex 13, Con 32, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 60 (113pt)
Bonus Feats: Awaken Spell Resistance 16x, Roll With It 20x, 21 various other feats (57pp)
Bling: +4 wounding speed thundering Spiked Chain, +1 soulfire transmutation proof impervious vestment, 3rd eye conceal (bonus properties undecided so far)
Capabilities: +50 to +70 attack bonus, 70ish AC, 370 hp, +48/+34/+39 saves, Spell Resistance 50, DR 40/-, naturally immune to Fire/Sleep/Paralysis, natural flight, deathward/transmutation immunity/mind blank via items, moderately good damage (but not at ubercharging levels)

[ahenobarbi]

Sounds interesting. It would optimize very differently than normal D&D. Spontaneous casters are much better now than prepared casters (because prepared casters loose their main advantage (access to more spells)). Boosting main casting stat above 19 isn't an obvious decision for casters now (all it does is increase save DC while taking away spells known and spell slots). It is possible to build a competent non-caster (feats and many non-casting class features are very cheap).

Actually I think it's great. You can do stuff that's cool but really hard to pull off with standard D&D very easily:

Factotum 8 (8 points, 8 total)
Font of Inspiration x5 (5 points, 13 total)
Skills / level boost x4 (4 points, 17 total)
+3 Dex (3 points, 20 total)
Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Mobility (3 points, 23 total)
Shadowdancer 1 (1 point, 24 total)
Mindbender 1 (1 point, 25 total)
Darkstalker, Mindsight (2 points, 27 total)

And you get a competent sneak for points worth less than 3 levels. You could throw get full Wild Shape progression for another 20 points and be a decent at melee (and get some extra utility). With 160 points left. You could invest in archery feats and become a good archer (probably also somewhere 20 points for feats; you'll need to invest in stats and equipment though).

You can "dip" a lot (dip Barbarian for pounce, Cloistered Cleric for domains and turn undead, Monk for fast movement, Bard for Music and bardic knowledge, ...).

It probably remains true that Casters still rule supreme (but spontaneous casters are on the top now) but it gives non-casters a shot at being competent.