An idea concerning prepared and spontenous casters.

[Kol Korran]

My gaming group is a casual group. For the most part, the players who prefer to play casters usually prefer spontaneous ones, mostly for their simplicity. However, one ends up choosing cleric or wizard simply because he finds the limitation of spells known too.... limiting. But he really hates the immense list of spells, and digging through it.

So he came up with an odd idea: Prepared casters are considered more powerful than spontaneous anyway. What if instead having access to the entire list, they would also have a "max spells known" equal to 3 times that of a spontaneous caster 1 level above them? So a 3rd level cleric will have 3 times the spells known of an oracle/ favored soul, so would a wizard compared to a sorcerer. We haven't thought about level 20 (We don't really play that far), but maybe then you gain access to all of the list or something (Ultimate mage/ cleric or such)

I am not very good with balance and mechanics. How do you think this would affect the game? It limits the prepared casters more, but still keeps them far more versatile than spontaneous casters. I'm not good judging these things, what do you think?

[Deophaun]

It's broken. Yes, spontaneous casters have a limited selection, but give them just two or three more spells per level and they become insanely flexible. This is because they are already picking the crème de la crème of all spells, and there are only so many actions you can take in a round. By giving them 3Xs the number, now they can choose more edge case spells that are very powerful for what they do.

If you don't like the limits, then I suggest looking at classes like the Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, and Warmage, and, to a lesser extent, Healer, and building fixed-list casters that cast to a theme.

[Kol Korran]

I'm not giving spontenous caster 3 times more spells then they have, but limiting prepared casters to that amount. and they remain prepared casters. I know they will still likely be Tier 1/2 but just wondering how this affects things.

[Greenish]

It's broken. Yes, spontaneous casters have a limited selection, but give them just two or three more spells per level and they become insanely flexible. This is because they are already picking the crème de la crème of all spells, and there are only so many actions you can take in a round. By giving them 3Xs the number, now they can choose more edge case spells that are very powerful for what they do.You misread the OP.


At triple the spontaneous caster's spells known, you'd most hurt the prepared casters' ability to use the really specific niche spells while not actually reducing the effort to pick their spells (since now they have to agonize which spells to learn each level, in addition to which spells prepare each day).

[sideswipe]

It's broken. Yes, spontaneous casters have a limited selection, but give them just two or three more spells per level and they become insanely flexible. This is because they are already picking the crème de la crème of all spells, and there are only so many actions you can take in a round. By giving them 3Xs the number, now they can choose more edge case spells that are very powerful for what they do.

If you don't like the limits, then I suggest looking at classes like the Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, and Warmage, and, to a lesser extent, Healer, and building fixed-list casters that cast to a theme.

umm its still weaker then a normal wizard, you can no longer just take copious amounts of low level spells for every occasion. you get about 10-12 max, my level 10 i am currently playing has about 25.

To OP
so it would put a small restrain on the wizard, but it will not fix the problem too much. but for what you are trying to accomplish it works. it just means that spells that some people take when they have spare money would no longer be taken.

[Flickerdart]

Spirit Shaman does a pretty good job of curbing the power of prepared spellcasting. From what I hear, 5e casting works this way too, now.

[torrasque666]

It's broken. Yes, spontaneous casters have a limited selection, but give them just two or three more spells per level and they become insanely flexible. This is because they are already picking the crème de la crème of all spells, and there are only so many actions you can take in a round. By giving them 3Xs the number, now they can choose more edge case spells that are very powerful for what they do.

If you don't like the limits, then I suggest looking at classes like the Dread Necromancer, Beguiler, and Warmage, and, to a lesser extent, Healer, and building fixed-list casters that cast to a theme.
I think you misread what he meant. I think he meant "instead" rather than also, given the last sentence of that paragraph. I think what he meant was that a cleric(for instance) he doesn't get to prepare from all the spells, but rather that a cleric 1 would instead know(and prepare from) 15 0-level spells(are there even that many?) and 9 first level spells.


Note that for a wizard this is easier to do as they do not automatically have access to the entire list to prepare from, only that which is in his book. Limit the availability of arcane scrolls and other wizards and you can accomplish much the same thing.

[Flickerdart]

Limit the availability of arcane scrolls and other wizards and you can accomplish much the same thing.
Not really. There are loads of ways (such as Collegiate Wizard) to increase your free per-level spells to a more than sufficient number.

[sideswipe]

Not really. There are loads of ways (such as Collegiate Wizard) to increase your free per-level spells to a more than sufficient number.

i believ collegate wizard elven generalist gets you 5 per level, add domian for a 6th every other level, and i think there is something else that gives 1 extra.

[Deophaun]

I'm not giving spontenous caster 3 times more spells then they have, but limiting prepared casters to that amount. and they remain prepared casters. I know they will still likely be Tier 1/2 but just wondering how this affects things.
You're right, I misunderstood.

However, I'm trying to find the virtue to this method. The prepared caster still has the issue of going through all the sources to determine what spells he wants on that list, and then he still has to pick and choose what spells he prepares for the day. The only thing it does is limit their versatility, if only a little. But it doesn't solve your problem.

[PseudoPanda]

It's a very minimal difference from what I can tell. You still have a good chunk of spells to choose from just not every single spell but that still allows for all (or at least most) of the broken and more useful spells to be selected. If your PC wants to do that go ahead and let him but if he's purposely limiting himself anyway I don't see the need for an official house rule

[Kol Korran]

Ok, thanks all! so it seems the general consensus is that it doesn't matter much in the end. Pretty much what I wanted to know. Thanks again!

[nedz]

Your suggestion is kind of similar to previous editions where a Wizard could only know so many spells per spell level — dependant upon their Int.
It made a small difference.