The Mailman Build?

[Necrovosh]

I'm running a new campaign, starting at first level. I've allowed most Wizards 3.5 material that isn't setting specific (no dragon, because I don't have time to read all that.) Most of my group has been having trouble building basic characters, like fighters and rogues. But one of my players wanted to build the Mailman. Now, as we have no other arcane casters, how much trouble would it be to un-ban the Incantatrix prc? This will be a fairly high combat campaign, so the damage might be helpful to the party...

I know that the player has at least a moderate amount of system mastery, but in a party of fighters and dragon shaman, would it really be fair to release something of that optimization level? Additionally, since I banned the books before anyone began character creation, should I really worry about this? I've never seen the Mailman build in action, so any stories of what it does in campaigns would be helpful.

[Vhaidara]

First: Know your enemy (http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1765181)

Incantatrix is one of the most powerful PrC a wizard can take. A full Mailman build will be dishing out hundreds of damage, often with no save and no spell resistance (and no energy resistance). The Fighter and Dragon Shaman will be all but useless by comparison.

Tell him that, given the mastery levels of the other players, a simple blasting Sorcerer or Wizard 20 will be just as effective. Because it will.

[INoKnowNames]

So, let me get this straight:

You've banned setting specific material for everyone.

Most everyone is building basic characters.

Most everyone is building martial/non magic characters (with the exception of a dragon shaman?).

The game has already begun.

Now one player has expressed the intent to build the Mailman, which violates the first 2 points and could potentially have them easily invalidate the existence of the other characters if they focused on damage dealing (and fighters can't do many other things as well as they deal damage).

"What could possibly go wrong?"

I try to iron out character intent while think ink is still wet on the sheet, so to speak, and quite frankly, yeah, this is very much something I'm not sure I'd let go. It's most important to talk to the entire group about the restrictions and try to get feedback on what everyone wants, and then decide what your games can handle and what they can't.

But the Mailman is pretty much the epitome of "If it exists, it can be killed", so unless everyone is building to a similar degree, I'd consider turning back, though you at least don't have to worry about it too much at level 1. In case you don't know, the Mailman delivers Mail. And by delivers, I mean uses metamagic reducers to stack lots of power ups onto various types of damage dealing or enemy slaying spells. And by Mail, I mean exp, in the form of everything else' death.

One could probably build a competent blaster sorcerer even without using one of the strongest prestige classes in the game to do it.

[sideswipe]

say he can play an incredibly optimised buffer, it has worked in my party.

if he plays incanatrix it will be him vs your campaign with the occasional yawn from another player.

[ILM]

I know that the player has at least a moderate amount of system mastery, but in a party of fighters and dragon shaman, would it really be fair to release something of that optimization level?
http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/hhn.gif

[Snowbluff]

Ask him to make an Eldritch Theurge instead. It's weaker, but it has a similiar feel.

EDIT: Thank you, ILM, for the insane laughter. I've been told that there isn't enough of that in my life.

[Necrovosh]

We do have a cleric and an archivist (both of which I basically had to build and explain from the ground up.) I understand that it deals a lot of damage, but the party is 8 characters and the primary enemy is undead: there will be a lot of mass on the npc side of the field. After reading that guide, though, I still don't quite understand: is it just maximizing orb spells or something? I don't have the book that it's in, it reduces metamagic costs, correct? How is that worse than DMM persist, which is still open to them? A single enemy down a round doesn't seem like much when there'll be 16 or so kobold skeletons with bows and spears on the other side being backed by a necropolitan cleric.

As for opening the books up, I normally wouldn't do it, but I'm allowing an artificer in a session from now (it fits the setting lore to have mage-punk engineers) so I feel like it would be a little unfair to not. Heck, I was even running craft points before the artificer showed up, so he'll be able to basically spontaneously generate magic items at the end of each day.

The first session hasn't happened yet, they still have a day left to build. I'm just worried that I'll seem to favor the artificer's player, but it's really that I just got my Eberron books back yesterday, and I've never owned the faerun ones. I'm not allowing the artisan feats or homunculi (could you imagine a hordificer at a table of 8?) just the base class and ECS infusions.

edit: the artificer class is open to the whole table, not just the one player. Never too many wands, ya know?

second edit: eldritch thurge's spellblasts are still able to be Meta-SLA'd, right? I'll check with her and see if that might be more fun.

[sideswipe]

DMM persist gets full base attack bonus, +6 str as one of its signiture tricks.


a mailman can with a single spell as a swift action twin cast a maximised empowered enlarged fireball. totalling CL10 at around 200 damage. it can get even worse.

[Necrovosh]

DMM persist gets full base attack bonus, +6 str as one of its signiture tricks.


a mailman can with a single spell as a swift action twin cast a maximised empowered enlarged fireball. totalling CL10 at around 200 damage. it can get even worse.

I like how in the relmshelps article on Incantatrix it says "Because they have little offensive combat magic against normal creatures, they prefer to avoid combat..."
200 damage is only about twice the hp a level appropriate challenge has at level 10. Oh, and it's enlarged? How wonderful...

Ok, staying banned, hehe.

[ExLibrisMortis]

How is that worse than DMM persist, which is still open to them?

Third-level incantatrix gets the ability to add metamagic effects (say, persist) to spells already in place. It's usable more often than DMM:Persist unless you're rocking ~7 turning pools, because incantatrix is based on number of effects applied rather than total levels applied.

The mailman can use Arcane spellsurge (persisted, if you like) to cast metamagic'd spells as standard actions. Then he uses Greater Arcane Fusion to deliver a fourth-level spell and an empowered admixtured fourth-level spell in one cast, as a swift action. Then he repeats this, except that the GAF is now metamagic'd and cast as a standard. Total: two regular and two empowered admixtured orbs of X (acid, unless you really need force damage) per round, for a total of 15d6 + 15d6 + 1.5 * 30d6 + 1.5 * 30d6 or about 52.5 * 8 = 420 damage, no save, no SR. Ranged touch attacks are not very difficult to make, and if it's really an issue, true strike + a single pimped-out orb exists.

The capstone doesn't come online until level 16, though it's powerful enough before that. But your game could be broken already, before the mailman gets to these GAF shenanigans.

[yellowrocket]

Wow was i shocked when i read this. I thought some one was looking to model Karl Malone.

[Deophaun]

A single enemy down a round doesn't seem like much when there'll be 16 or so kobold skeletons with bows and spears on the other side being backed by a necropolitan cleric.
The Mailman one-shots the hostile cleric, the friendly cleric burns a turn attempt to clean up the rest. The six others are charged with burying the bodies, because what else is their purpose?

[Necrovosh]

The Mailman one-shots the hostile cleric, the friendly cleric burns a turn attempt to clean up the rest. The six others are charged with burying the bodies, because what else is their purpose?

Yeah, that was the sort of thing I was worried about. There are two brand new players, and a couple more giving 3.5 a shot after playing 4e exclusively. It's why I'm diving into a combat heavy game; I figure most of them understand turn based combat, and the setting allows for fairly quick and painless resurrection or new characters. I'll be introing more difficult concepts later, but the highest system mastery player rolled a non-DFI bard, so unless he's building towards double nines, I'm pretty sure things will work out. This was the biggest "you don't get a chance to play" thing I was worried about for the first session. After this, I'll be splitting up their party into two groups and playing on different days, with only a little bit of overlap. I didn't expect this kind of turn out when I posted the sign up.

On another note, does anyone know any tricks for handling large parties of low mastery players? I'm used to DMing for a 5 man band who were all fairly skilled while being nice enough to not break the game unless I challenged them to.

[Hiro Quester]

A Wizard5/War Weaver 5/ Incantatrix 10 can have a similar ability to blast well, but brings the focus onto buffing the rest of the party first. It might be a good compromise.

An incantatrix blaster isn't necessarily as disproportionately overpowered, if they spend their first round making giving the party invisibility, blur, flying, stoneskin, and greater resistance, etc.

[Necrovosh]

A Wizard5/War Weaver 5/ Incantatrix 10 can have a similar ability to blast well, but brings the focus onto buffing the rest of the party first. It might be a good compromise.

An incantatrix blaster isn't necessarily as disproportionately overpowered, if they spend their first round making giving the party invisibility, blur, flying, stoneskin, and greater resistance, etc.

This is level one. The specific build indicated was "mailman." If they make it to level 20, this will be the longest single campaign I've ever run, and also have exhausted the vague storyline of threats I've constructed by about 10 levels. I'd be ecstatic, but find it highly unlikely.

[sideswipe]

The Mailman one-shots the hostile cleric, the friendly cleric burns a turn attempt to clean up the rest. The six others are charged with burying the bodies, because what else is their purpose?

what are you talking about? the skeletons need to be next to the cleric to function well (synergies and easy of casting and protection for the cleric) so my fireball (which i could energy substitute for sonic for free with enough meta magic reductions) does damage to everyone within 40ft of the cleric which would be most of them, doing 400ish damage in the round, most will be dead.

[gogogome]

You don't need incantatrix to do the mailman. Residual Magic and Arcane Thesis: Orb of your choice is enough. You'll be slinging maximized twinned empowered orbs like crazy.

The thing about the mailman though, it only comes online late game. Even at level 10 it's pathetic because you just don't have enough orbs to go around, or the necessary spell levels and feats required to metamagic those orbs. At best the mailman is a BBEG killer, who expends his/her entire spell repetoire to take out a few guys.

As a DM, in my experience it's not a problem. Most of the game the mailman is relying heavily on the party to take out all the mobs. It's the self-sufficient caster builds who take over all the jobs that are a problem. Of course I do ban incantatrix outright in all of my games, so perhaps an incantatrix mailman comes online much quicker.

[Necrovosh]

what are you talking about? the skeletons need to be next to the cleric to function well (synergies and easy of casting and protection for the cleric) so my fireball (which i could energy substitute for sonic for free with enough meta magic reductions) does damage to everyone within 40ft of the cleric which would be most of them, doing 400ish damage in the round, most will be dead.

You can't energy substitute with sonic damage. A newer source reprinted the feat, so the old one got superseded. At higher levels, better undead come online, so skeletons are the least of their worries (unless they're like an army or something, and then there would be too many for any single spell to hit.) Even at low levels, only a few skellies need or want to be near the cleric, as bodyguards. The rest screen or provide fire support. Have you ever run a minion-mancer?

[Deophaun]

what are you talking about? the skeletons need to be next to the cleric to function well (synergies and easy of casting and protection for the cleric) so my fireball (which i could energy substitute for sonic for free with enough meta magic reductions) does damage to everyone within 40ft of the cleric which would be most of them, doing 400ish damage in the round, most will be dead.
But then you're using fireball, which is subject to Reflex saves and the aura of evasion the cleric has up. The point of the Mailman is that it doesn't worry about that.

[sideswipe]

But then you're using fireball, which is subject to Reflex saves and the aura of evasion the cleric has up. The point of the Mailman is that it doesn't worry about that.

yeah all that evasion it gets against BREATH WEAPONS ONLY as per the spell in the draconomicon and the spell compendium.

and clerics are well known for there good reflex save and their high dex. and having evasion or improved evasion naturally. so with these natural bonuses they save and only take 200 damage they are not immune to at level 10 ish. (the level my example is), they would need a con of around 40 to survive the attack on average. all clerics have con that high.

if i knew the cleric was optimised and had resistances and immunities. then i would use a non spell res, non save force attack, but all i was given was a bog standard cleric. it would be a stupid decision to take the less destructive route if it is entirely superior in the circumstance.

[Deophaun]

yeah all that evasion it gets against BREATH WEAPONS ONLY as per the spell in the draconomicon and the spell compendium.
Sorry. Ring of evasion then.

[Troacctid]

If the Cleric gave a ring of evasion to every single one of his kobold skeletons and they all make the save, you should be overjoyed, because it means after you switch to spells that don't allow a Reflex save and kick their asses, you'll be able to loot an extra 16 magic rings worth 25,000 gp each.

[Necrovosh]

Sorry. Ring of evasion then.

I'm not passing out Rings of Evasion to random undead clerics. This isn't a boss fight: it's a mid tier cr appropriate encounter. If I want to kill a caster, three advanced wights and a ghost can do it easily for most, if not all levels below 11.

[Deophaun]

If the Cleric gave a ring of evasion to every single one of his kobold skeletons and they all make the save, you should be overjoyed, because it means after you switch to spells that don't allow a Reflex save and kick their asses, you'll be able to loot an extra 16 magic rings worth 25,000 gp each.
Who said anything about the kobold skeletons? They're getting killed by the cleric's turn undead once the enemy cleric is dead.

[sideswipe]

Sorry. Ring of evasion then.

yeah that works, but the save DC for a good mailman would be 20's-30's
say sorcerer with start 20 cha, add +2 form levels and a +4 from item (cant feasibly afford a +6 by that point unless cutting other necessaries)
so 26 or +8
so the saves would be about 20-25 (depending on feats)

a straight 10 cleric would want high scores in str, wis, cha and con over dex so lets say 10.

+3 from base save, +2 from a cloak or vest of resistance as an npc, ring of evasion (why honestly your a cleric) and give another +1 from some sort of misc bonus, even though this one was obviously a necromancer they may have tooled up a bit for some reason.

a +6 reflex.

taking a basic level 3 spell and adding my +8 mod from cha i get a DC of 21 (being unfavourable to the sorc), vs a save of +6 (being generous) so you end with only a 25% rate of success, and they would have needed to invest a great amount of resources to survive the hit even if they get the lucky 25%. which means they would be worse at their intended purpose and have jedi'd rather then sith'd (terms my group use).

the chances a cleric would choose a ring of evasion (half their gold at level 10! the original level of my example) over a staff of undead mastery and a bunch of other cool stuff to up their necromancy.

looking at these (which i ran through my head the instant i saw the encounter) i would play the 99% chance off kill the whole encounter in a shot over the 100% kill just the cleric and have to waste a few charges of my lesser vigor wand to heal after i get pin cushioned for a small amount of damage.

[Deophaun]

yeah that works, but the save DC for a good mailman would be 20's-30's
say sorcerer with start 20 cha, add +2 form levels and a +4 from item (cant feasibly afford a +6 by that point unless cutting other necessaries)
so 26 or +8
so the saves would be about 20-25 (depending on feats)

a straight 10 cleric would want high scores in str, wis, cha and con over dex so lets say 10.

+3 from base save, +2 from a cloak or vest of resistance as an npc, ring of evasion (why honestly your a cleric) and give another +1 from some sort of misc bonus, even though this one was obviously a necromancer they may have tooled up a bit for some reason.

a +6 reflex.

Well, your Cleric is probably higher level than the party. That gives him access to superior resistance and divine agility. But, that's likely using all his high level slots, and divine agility is rounds/level. And you're right: the ring of evasion is half his WBL. So, let's do something more realistic for a cleric that is facing a wizard that likes to throw dragon slaves around.

Spell Immunity: Fireball. Level 4 spell. 10 min/level.

Plus the cleric gets immunity to your party's other favorite SR:Yes spell, whatever that is. This is a reasonable spell to have, especially for a necromancer that can use his minions to scout out your strengths (a shame undead eyes isn't a better known spell--it should be standard issue for any necro--or I'd assume he was using it and wasn't at any risk during these tests).

[Necrovosh]

(...) looking at these (which i ran through my head the instant i saw the encounter) i would play the 99% chance off kill the whole encounter in a shot over the 100% kill just the cleric and have to waste a few charges of my lesser vigor wand to heal after i get pin cushioned for a small amount of damage.

A cr appropriate encounter for a party of 8 level 10 characters isn't going to be a single cleric and some minor kobold skeletons. It's going to be a vampire, two clerics, and a few ghosts/wraiths. It's not going to have slow, dumb enemies commanded by an unskilled leader. Each undead will be able to pick effective tactics: the vampire will take on the rogue, the clerics will buff everyone, and the ghosts/wraiths will engage a single foe at a time. It's not going to be a single small room: the npcs will use flight and incorporeality to their advantage. No one will stand there and let the wizard pick them off at this level: they're going to drown him in fort saves.

[sideswipe]

A cr appropriate encounter for a party of 8 level 10 characters isn't going to be a single cleric and some minor kobold skeletons. It's going to be a vampire, two clerics, and a few ghosts/wraiths. It's not going to have slow, dumb enemies commanded by an unskilled leader. Each undead will be able to pick effective tactics: the vampire will take on the rogue, the clerics will buff everyone, and the ghosts/wraiths will engage a single foe at a time. It's not going to be a single small room: the npcs will use flight and incorporeality to their advantage. No one will stand there and let the wizard pick them off at this level: they're going to drown him in fort saves.

i was only going the the sample encounter you gave. nothing more. and i didn't realise there was 8 in the party. i assumed the standard 4-5. which would have a lvl 10/11 pc class and some minions as a equal level encounter.

it was more that the mailman can choose different options then just the one irresistible pick off each round. anyone with sense would look at the sample encounter you gave and think "area attack to kill the lot"

[MukkTB]

I've played the mailman at lower levels. Starting at level 1. My experience was that of being pretty useless through most of the session, and then blasting the BBEG apart. I just didn't have enough staying power to be relevant for every encounter. There were also a lot of encounters where the enemies were so minor that it was better to let the fighters dismantle them.

Our group wasn't exactly acting under serious time pressure but I wasn't able to rest after each encounter and do a 5 minute adventuring day thing.

There is some fun in the linear warriors quadratic wizards thing, this being a case where the wizard isn't dominating everything for at least a bit. Yes I know the cleric and others can just outdo the warrior from level 1.

[Necrovosh]

i was only going the the sample encounter you gave. nothing more. and i didn't realise there was 8 in the party. i assumed the standard 4-5. which would have a lvl 10/11 pc class and some minions as a equal level encounter.

it was more that the mailman can choose different options then just the one irresistible pick off each round. anyone with sense would look at the sample encounter you gave and think "area attack to kill the lot"

Oh yeah, totally. In fact I would reward my PCs for getting a group into a position where they could be dropped instantly, not least by making sure that most of the good loot survived, where appropriate. Setting up a good tactical situation is what a caster should be doing. But even a 4 man party at level ten shouldn't be confronted by something as simple as "zombies with cleric" unless there's something strange about the situation, like a well optimized cleric or a strange environment. I was listing the cleric and skeletons as a level one encounter. Kobolds skellys are 1/2 CR, this would be the only encounter for the day, usually (maybe with a trap or something first.)

I'm not worried about the mailman taking one dude down at a time. I'm worried about her dropping 4 cr appropriate bosses in a single round. Apparently, that's what she does.