Can a character tell lethal from nonlethal damage?

[Genesic]

As title. Do characters know the difference between a Monk using a lethal damage attack vs nonlethal? And I hope there's actual written rule somewhere on this (but I do that hold my breath)

[BRC]

Like, the character recieving the damage, or somebody watching?

and I suppose it depends. There is no rule about this as far as I can tell.

For attacks with normally lethal weapons, dealing nonlethal damage is fairly obvious. They're hitting you with pommel strikes and the flat of the blade instead of stabbing or slashing.

For Monks? Probably not. Punching somebody in order to kill them vs punching somebody in order to knock them out looks and feels pretty similar. I would rule that another Monk, or somebody with improved unarmed strike, probably knows their martial arts enough to recognize that the attacker is staying away from causing serious injury.

[Denver]

Under the idea that a character can know what a player reads on their character sheet, I would infer "yes, a character can recognize the difference between lethal and nonlethal damage."

It could also be inferred that a character could know when damage is non-lethal in a more sensory based assumption: non-lethal hits don't "hurt" as much lethal hits of the same numerical value. (Of course, that also depends on how damage is abstracted in your game, though that would presumably only affect the flavorful description accompanying the lethal or non-lethal damage.)

[sideswipe]

pointy sword through chest - lethal

padded heavy club (SAP) - non lethal

[INoKnowNames]

The degree of damage done to the skin upon appearance, as well as how far the injury seems to go and what it might affect within the body... I think someone with at least some training in Healing could indeed determine whether or not it's just a flesh wound or "Just a Flesh Wound".

[Blackhawk748]

pointy sword through chest - lethal

padded heavy club (SAP) - non lethal

While funny, we're talking about a monk. Id say no, unless they are trained in unarmed combat, as non-lethal looks an awful lot like lethal. Now if your getting hit you could probably tell as he isnt going full force on you.

[sideswipe]

While funny, we're talking about a monk. Id say no, unless they are trained in unarmed combat, as non-lethal looks an awful lot like lethal. Now if your getting hit you could probably tell as he isnt going full force on you.

then it would be whether the strike was trying to break your ribs or hit a point that hurts or makes you go weak but did no real damage. you can tell if someone is disabling you or trying to kill you.

plus are they trying to sleeper hold you are coming towards you saying "kalimar, KALIMAR!" better?

[Blackhawk748]

plus are they trying to sleeper hold you are coming towards you saying "kalimar, KALIMAR!" better?

I believe you mean Kalima. Also you have inadvertently made me LMAO as Kalimar is a kingdom in the Kingdoms of Kalimar setting, so i just got a picture of a One Punch Monk in Kalimarian dress chanting that while he rippied out peoples hearts. :smalltongue:

[Deophaun]

Meh, if you have to tell the players (which, you do, because they need to keep track of lethal and non-lethal damage), the characters should know to. It's just courtesy, really, otherwise you're forcing them to second guess their roleplaying, which some can handle and others cannot.

[sideswipe]

I believe you mean Kalima. Also you have inadvertently made me LMAO as Kalimar is a kingdom in the Kingdoms of Kalimar setting, so i just got a picture of a One Punch Monk in Kalimarian dress chanting that while he rippied out peoples hearts. :smalltongue:

hahahahaha. that is hilarious.

[Vertharrad]

Blackhawk748 has a point...unless you know what to look for no you don't know whether it's lethal or not. Ask some trained soldiers and most of them can't tell in the heat of battle, which is when your mostly going to be wanting to know. Your first assumption will be that it's lethal, unless you know what to look for(need at least Improved Unarmed Strike or training like a monk). RAW there is no answer so your GM is going to have to make a deliberation either before or when it comes up.

[Abithrios]

For Monks? Probably not. Punching somebody in order to kill them vs punching somebody in order to knock them out looks and feels pretty similar. I would rule that another Monk, or somebody with improved unarmed strike, probably knows their martial arts enough to recognize that the attacker is staying away from causing serious injury.

This is true in real life, but only because nonlethal damage is not really a thing IRL. Being knocked out by a punch is a sign of serious injury.

Cinematically speaking, it should be possible to capture people alive, so it makes sense to include rules for it.

Personally, I would make it obvious which is which, unless the monk wants to obscure that information, perhaps with a bluff check with a circumstance bonus equal to monk level.

[goto124]

This is true in real life, but only because nonlethal damage is not really a thing IRL. Being knocked out by a punch is a sign of serious injury.


This blurs the line between metagaming, and using knowledge your char should know.

Getting punches reallh badly IRL is lethal. But what about a world that has nonlethal damage? Do your chars make a Knowledge (Unarmed Strikes) check?

[Troacctid]

I imagine it's a nightmare to keep track of nonlethal damage if your players don't know whether to mark it down as nonlethal on their character sheet.

[Denver]

This is true in real life, but only because nonlethal damage is not really a thing IRL. Being knocked out by a punch is a sign of serious injury.

While it is a sign of serious injury to be knocked out by a blow - to suggest that non-lethal damage is not a thing is a bit off the mark, wouldn't you think? Anytime a person is injured or wounded and then does not die; that would be considered non-lethal damage, would you say?

It would (perhaps) be a bit more accurate to say that there is no distinction between non-lethal and lethal damage in the "real world," just that damage accrues until the subject dies. Or that people only ever suffer lethal damage one time in their lives - just as they die. Either way, it is a bit comical (I am chuckling as I visualize it) the way D&D represents damage to a person's body. But, that is probably a topic for a different thread!

[SangoProduction]

if you bring a character down with 2*their remaining lethal hp + 10 in nonlethal damage, then they will die.
But, nonlethal attacks tend to be generally just less likely to have a lethal effect, like a whip is basically surface wounds. It does damage, but it's not very likely to cut arteries. It would have to be a really extreme amount to actually do much outside of bleeding from ripping away their skin. And from there, you would still probably pass out from the pain well before someone was able to finish you with a whip.

Remember, HP is a rough amalgamation of luck, evasiveness, ability to block, endurance and sheer toughness, so being less likely to do something lethal means it's going to take more effort to make it actually likely to be lethal, like targeting specific weak points (which explains the called shot penalty, or the -4 for turning it to lethal)

Monks spend years just perfecting their martial prowess, and how to hit people in just the right place to really do damage more reliably, as well as proper technique. As a result, unlike regular people just wailing away, the precise strikes have a pretty good chance to be lethal. As to whether or not a watcher could tell if a monk was using lethal or nonlethal damage without a close inspection would rely incredibly on the monk in question. Are they just throwing massive haymakers, or are they dancing around, and tagging nerves and arteries? One would be easier than the other.

I'd say the amount of pain received is equivalent, though, based solely on the fact that you pass out when lethal + nonlethal damage = your max hp.. But, difference being that nonlethal damage would be shallower cuts, and bruising, as opposed to deep gashes and broken bones.

In the heat of combat, you probably can't tell, you're hurt, and that's all that matters. But...who cares, it's the combat phase of a D&D session. You're not roleplaying, you're bashing numbers at eachother until the other falls.

[Blackhawk748]

if you bring a character down with 2*their remaining lethal hp + 10 in nonlethal damage, then they will die.

Thats PF, in 3.5 you cant die from non-lethal, though the above is a fairly common houserule.

[INoKnowNames]

I still don't see why this is so complicated.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8wrP0VkqXvQ/UtSA6ZELmeI/AAAAAAAAJak/bStDTVNty_Y/s1600/IMG_20140113_160851%5B1%5D.jpg

http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/66/Bruises.jpg

It really wouldn't be that hard to determine the difference visually, especially for someone trained to do so. Heal is a Wisdom based skill...