How would a deity ran by Tippy fight a high level mage?

[Genesic]

Just curious. What would a deity use to crush a lowly mortal?
I already got clothes woven out of ice assassins of both it and the enemy mage.
Chain time stop, where at the last round of each the deity readies an action to cast time stop as soon as time resumes.
Omniscience trick to get infinite saves and skills.
Anything else?

And remember, there's no such thing as overkill.

[j_spencer93]

ok to be honest there is no way a PC can beat a deity (well not every deity). For example, idc what you make, Mystra stomps you. Your mage, all spells canceled and your stripped of your spellcasting (she literally has the ability to do this in game.) Most gods are way beyond a player's ability to fight.
Main elf god, gets nat twenty everything so its vorpal sword gets a critical on everyone without a divine rank equal to him.
Just two example, but no. No wizard can actually beat the higher gods, ESPECIALLY in their own realm.

[Blackhawk748]

Just curious. What would a deity use to crush a lowly mortal?
I already got clothes woven out of ice assassins of both it and the enemy mage.
Chain time stop, where at the last round of each the deity readies an action to cast time stop as soon as time resumes.
Omniscience trick to get infinite saves and skills.
Anything else?

And remember, there's no such thing as overkill.

Dude, its Tippy, instead of simply guessing why dont we just ask him?

*Cracks knuckles*
WE CALL FORTH THE GREAT EMPEROR OF CRAZY!
THE WIELDER OF THE INSANE!
THE MAN CAPABLE OF DOING LUDICROUS DAMAGE WITH FIREBALL!
WE CALL FORTH EMPEROR TIPPY!
HERE OUR PLEA!

shouldnt be too long now. Now i know Afrokauma likes goats, but what do we get Tippy? A Mage bane hat?

[Genesic]

I know that the popular answer is "Deity wins because its a deity"
But assuming there WAS an actual fight... how would the deity "buff"?

You dont call Tippy, you get an aleax ice assassin of Tippy to call Tippy.

And for extra challenge, lets imagine the deity just walks into the fight naked and with no money. But since alter reality allows you to chain-cast time stop, I think the deity can buff in fight right? Lets say... with every spell ever printed, made permanent by that same alter reality?

[j_spencer93]

honestly i would say a really powerful mage would find anyone under a greater deity a good challenge, greater deities seriously just seem to beyond anything i have seen a PC can do.

[Blackhawk748]

I know that the popular answer is "Deity wins because its a deity"
But assuming there WAS an actual fight... how would the deity "buff"?

You dont call tippy, you get an aleax ice assassin of tippy to call tippy.

Now your thinking like Tippy :smallwink:

Anyway, what level is this mage? 21? The deity doesnt buff. 30? Ya they'll probably buff for this fight. We need some hard numbers to work with here


honestly i would say a really powerful mage would find anyone under a greater deity a good challenge, greater deities seriously just seem to beyond anything i have seen a PC can do.

Then you have not seen appropriate usage of Epic Level Magic my friend. I once had a player who had an Epic Spell that backlashed any single target effect onto the attacker, oh and he was a lich, so lol vorpal. So yes you did just watch Correlian cut off his own head.

[Genesic]

Lets say its a Tainted Scholar with an absurd amount of taint. I was thinking of having ice assassins of the mage (that the deity makes) to just counterspell ALL the things! Thoughts?

[j_spencer93]

actually even at level 30 it really depends on what deity? because as stated Mystra beats mage everytime. She literally takes all your spells and negates all spells on you. Also she is aware of every spell you cast 18 tendays before you do, thats 80 days so.
Seriously we need to know what god you plan on using, and do not forget greater gods get a 20 on every roll against those of a lower divine rank.

[Blackhawk748]

Lets say its a Tainted Scholar with an absurd amount of taint. I was thinking of having ice assassins of the mage (that the deity makes) to just counterspell ALL the things! Thoughts?

Well if we are in Tippy levels we are just shy of Tier 0, so Ice Assassin of both combatants are not out of the question, as well as absurd amounts of Contigency. Also both combatants are most likely on their own Demiplanes sipping tea and talking to each other through Aspect Mirrors, while the watch the Simulacrums and Ice Assassins slaughter each other.


actually even at level 30 it really depends on what deity? because as stated Mystra beats mage everytime. She literally takes all your spells and negates all spells on you.

Except with the above Example of Epic Level Magic she would have taken away her own magic, also Mystra is a bad example, how many times has she died?

[j_spencer93]

Well if we are in Tippy levels we are just shy of Tier 0, so Ice Assassin of both combatants are not out of the question, as well as absurd amounts of Contigency. Also both combatants are most likely on their own Demiplanes sipping tea and talking to each other through Aspect Mirrors, while the watch the Simulacrums and Ice Assassins slaughter each other.



Except with the above Example of Epic Level Magic she would have taken away her own magic, also Mystra is a bad example, how many times has she died?

um that doesn't work actually. Seriously that doesn't. Also she only does because of plot. If we are going to use plot as an example of why people lose then this is all moot to begin with. IT is literally up to, ask your DM then.
Lets see, easiest and simplest route, she knows 80 days before. cancels your magic. rapes you at her leisure, in actuallity you get it to work and she alters reality, since she can do that.

[Blackhawk748]

um that doesn't work actually. Seriously that doesn't. Also she only does because of plot. If we are going to use plot as an example of why people lose then this is all moot to begin with. IT is literally up to, ask your DM then.

I just thought it was relevant, shes the only deity i know of that has died more than once

[j_spencer93]

I just thought it was relevant, shes the only deity i know of that has died more than once

lol i understand why but greater deities are just flat broken (Especially here, i don't even see a way of approaching her without being a greater deity yourself)
Also she knows every spell (think the book only gives her PH spells but then states she is aware of any and all spells and magical items created, so she knows them all)

[icefractal]

Most deities just win, without question. Because they have ways (Alter Reality, spellcasting, or simply use of artifacts) to do everything the Wizard can, plus divine abilities. And if we're getting into TO levels, the Wizard doesn't even have the advantage of specific PrCs, because there are ways for the deity to swap out all their levels mid-fight.

The only case it's questionable is with a weaker deity, where the Wizard has more total levels. If the Wizard used those levels very efficiently, packing in the most game-changing class features they could, then its possible that it might give them the edge over divine abilities. This goes out the window if you allow methods to gain more HD.

But in fact, if both parties were operating at a TO level, the fight is impossible to resolve. Step 1 - each side has an uncountably large number of Ice Assassins fighting each other. And it just gets worse from there.

[Aegis013]

The greater deity uses its contacts with other deities to detect the players intention to fight them through one of various portfolios before the character is even done considering the idea and whether or not it's worth pursuing. The deity uses his/her salient divine ability Alter Reality to Teleport Through Time one of its Aleax Ice Assassins of itself to before the character would pose any threat and uses his/her salient divine ability Alter Reality to cause the player to die as they are a baby or otherwise effectively defenseless. When the deity is sufficiently satisfied that his/her information network no longer is saying someone is out for their neck, they're done. Otherwise they continue in a like manner making things even more ridiculous.

E.g. Boccob knows you're going to cast spells in his vicinity or that have effects in his vicinity so he stops you before you even get to the point where you can take action against him.

If you're gunning for a deity lower in Rank than Vecna, you'd need to get Vecna to hide your actions or something so that you can fool various Porfolio senses.

[Blackhawk748]

lol i understand why but greater deities are just flat broken (Especially here, i don't even see a way of approaching her without being a greater deity yourself)

Its doable, it just gets....weird. It helps that they are terribly built and that none have Epic Casting, but if they're made by Tippy they will truly hold the titles of gods.

[Genesic]

Ok lets have this scenario:

Fighter 1:
Mid level Tainted Scholar who has save DC of: YES
This is due to taint.

Fighter 2:
Level 20 Psion that is also a greater deity.

For the sake of making the god's life just a taaaad harder, lets say god has no WBL, but CAN just go first, and then spam Time stop over and over in an infinite loop.
Lets also say that nat 20's arent auto-success, but instead are treated as a roll of 40.
This means the deity cant save vs save or die spells.

I was thinking thusly:
1) Loop time-stop. You now have infinite time.
2) Make ice assassing of yourself and enemy, and weave clothes out of them for the lulz, to wear. They are given the order to counterspell every spell cast at you (Is this possible btw?)

What else?

[j_spencer93]

Now simply dropping down to intermediate deities seems more likely but then again some of these are extremely powerful and are mind boggling to beat.
Lesser deiteis and psuedo deities aren't so bad but so far beyond normal players they still aren't even remotely beatable without extreme OP.

[j_spencer93]

Ok lets have this scenario:

Fighter 1:
Mid level Tainted Scholar who has save DC of: YES
This is due to taint.

Fighter 2:
Level 20 Psion that is also a greater deity.

For the sake of making the god's life just a taaaad harder, lets say god has no WBL, but CAN just go first, and then spam Time stop over and over in an infinite loop.
Lets also say that nat 20's arent auto-success, but instead are treated as a roll of 40.
This means the deity cant save vs save or die spells.

I was thinking thusly:
1) Loop time-stop. You now have infinite time.
2) Make ice assassing of yourself and enemy, and weave clothes out of them for the lulz, to wear. They are given the order to counterspell every spell cast at you (Is this possible btw?)

What else?

then you changed the game to benefit the player. You changed the rules to benefit the player. I thought we were talking about RAW? Either way MYstra still beats you. You didn't even change the way she beats you at all.

[j_spencer93]

Its doable, it just gets....weird. It helps that they are terribly built and that none have Epic Casting, but if they're made by Tippy they will truly hold the titles of gods.

I am sorry for using Mystra, but since she seems to be the most killed god i think it is a little humerous to prove how plot helps with this. Also epic spellcasting doesn't matter, she learns the spell when you develop it, and then immediate strips you of your spellcasting.

Honestly when facing other gods i can see it with some of the loop holes and stuff that you guys find lol but still they are strong (some have very low combat power though)

[Blackhawk748]

Lesser deiteis and psuedo deities aren't so bad but so far beyond normal players they still aren't even remotely beatable without extreme OP.

This is kinda wrong, Psuedodeities are just Characters with a few extra perks, hell Demigods just cant die of Old Age and have max HP. I've actually killed one at level 16, wasnt even that optimized. Sorcerer3/Walker in the Waste 10/Escalation mage 3. Made him drown in sand, good times.


I am sorry for using Mystra, but since she seems to be the most killed god i think it is a little humerous to prove how plot helps with this. Also epic spellcasting doesn't matter, she learns the spell when you develop it, and then immediate strips you of your spellcasting.

So shes gonna strip a Lich of the Spell he designed so he could kill Pelor? because thats why he made it.

[Genesic]

then you changed the game to benefit the player. You changed the rules to benefit the player. I thought we were talking about RAW? Either way MYstra still beats you. You didn't even change the way she beats you at all.

Im just watching said Scholar (who is level 12 or so) taunt how he is powerful enough to kill gods. So im thinking of running a god vs him to show him how wrong he is. Sadly, I have to abide by present house rules. Main one is the nat 20 rule.

[j_spencer93]

This is kinda wrong, Psuedodeities are just Characters with a few extra perks, hell Demigods just cant die of Old Age and have max HP. I've actually killed one at level 16, wasnt even that optimized. Sorcerer3/Walker in the Waste 10/Escalation mage 3. Made him drown in sand, good times.



So shes gonna strip a Lich of the Spell he designed so he could kill Pelor? because thats why he made it.

deities are immune to transmutation effects so that is a little strange. And well if she trys to use it against her within the next 80 days sure why not? But we are straying away now from the two just fighting.
Maybe not lower deities, i forgot a sentence sorry, i do not know exactly if they are or not.

[j_spencer93]

Im just watching said Scholar (who is level 12 or so) taunt how he is powerful enough to kill gods. So im thinking of running a god vs him to show him how wrong he is. Sadly, I have to abide by present house rules. Main one is the nat 20 rule.

AH ok sorry for my slight rudeness then, that makes far more sense. And i am using one of the most powerful gods as an example so do not expect it all to go this way. BTW their is a reason people do not face them head on, instead they find ways to weaken them or just simply eliminate them (like erasing their name from everyone's memory, which doesn't work on Mystra for above stated reasons).

[Ephemeral_Being]

I just thought it was relevant, shes the only deity i know of that has died more than once

Okay, back up for a second. Cause that's not QUITE true.

Mystryl was the first goddess of magic. Her power was stolen temporarily by a man known as Karsus, who using a spell that he created called Karsus's Avatar. This caused magic to go unstable, and she SACRIFICED HERSELF so that the Weave would stop breaking down. She wasn't killed. She chose to die. Big difference.

Mystra came after that. She died during the Time of Troubles, when she was stripped of a lot of her powers. And she died sneaking by Helm, who was still at full deity power. She was basically a player character, who went toe-to-toe with a god. That really had no other outcome.

And then, because the Weave was collapsing again, Midnight was reincarnated as Mystra. She is still alive, AFAIK.

If you wanted an example of a god who dies a lot, Orcus is a better pick. His story is crazy.

[j_spencer93]

Okay, back up for a second. Cause that's not QUITE true.

Mystryl was the first goddess of magic. Her power was stolen temporarily by a man known as Karsus, who using a spell that he created called Karsus's Avatar. This caused magic to go unstable, and she SACRIFICED HERSELF so that the Weave would stop breaking down. She wasn't killed. She chose to die. Big difference.

Mystra came after that. She died during the Time of Troubles, when she was stripped of a lot of her powers. And she died sneaking by Helm, who was still at full deity power. She was basically a player character, who went toe-to-toe with a god. That really had no other outcome.

And then, because the Weave was collapsing again, Midnight was reincarnated as Mystra. She is still alive, AFAIK.

If you wanted an example of a god who dies a lot, Orcus is a better pick. His story is crazy.

You are 100% correct, i just simplified it. Also it says something that she is never beaten at full power (in retrospect she isn't even defeated ever as a true deity). In a stupid way, RAW, she can create 1800 pounds and simply drop it on you.

[Blackhawk748]

deities are immune to transmutation effects so that is a little strange. And well if she trys to use it against her within the next 80 days sure why not? But we are straying away now from the two just fighting.
Maybe not lower deities, i forgot a sentence sorry, i do not know exactly if they are or not.

In any case i used Choking Sands which is Necromancer anyhow.

And im not sure of the specifics on the spell, but it actually may have had Duration:Permanent. Idk its been awhile. The main point i was raising is that Epic Casting is freakin stupidly OP when used with a small amount of intelligence. It just gets worse if a god is involved.


If you wanted an example of a god who dies a lot, Orcus is a better pick. His story is crazy.

Hehe *coughs, and in best Lord Carron voice* ALL HAIL TENEBROUS!!!

[j_spencer93]

In any case i used Choking Sands which is Necromancer anyhow.

And im not sure of the specifics on the spell, but it actually may have had Duration:Permanent. Idk its been awhile. The main point i was raising is that Epic Casting is freakin stupidly OP when used with a small amount of intelligence. It just gets worse if a god is involved.

oh god ik Blawhawk, ik. Seriously speaking, it is said in the fluff that epic spellcasting deities even fear (well i can see why, it has erased one of them) and is even slightly shakely if by fluff, mystra can cancel it.
Um her abilities to know every spell cast 80 days before it is cast isn't that well written. As written when you faced her she either already saw every move you had planned 80 days ago (holy crap a spellcaster with 80s days of preparation able to warp reality and create any magic item at will!!!!) OR she simply learns the massive list of every spell cast in 80 days without knowing why they are cast...so we strayed into DM territory. The first way actually fits the character much better.

[Blackhawk748]

oh god ik Blawhawk, ik. Seriously speaking, it is said in the fluff that epic spellcasting deities even fear (well i can see why, it has erased one of them) and is even slightly shakely if by fluff, mystra can cancel it.

Im gonna be honest, as written why would any god of magic be able to detect it? They cant even cast it so why should they have power over it? This is obviously a straight fluff thing, but basically when you can start cast Epic Magic, YOU HAVE SURPASSED THE GODS (as written)

[j_spencer93]

In faerun (which is where mystra would be, so besides what deity are you facing it is also important to know where) psionics draw on the weave (which goes against the books, and her ability actually but her stats need updated to 3.5 anyways) so they should be out.

NOW we get to the one exception. Shadow weave, it is stated she can't cancel it.

[Genesic]

Yeh. I wont be using mystra (probably) because just saying "no magic for you" might be just a taaad OP.
But here's what im thinking:

1) Loop time stop
2) Clothes of ice assassins
3) Buffed with every printed spell, made permanent via Alter reality.
4) A crapload of feats, that have been chaos shuffled into useful things.

Any easy ways to get those physical/mental stats up there? Some shenanigans with psionic powers perhaps?

[j_spencer93]

Im gonna be honest, as written why would any god of magic be able to detect it? They cant even cast it so why should they have power over it? This is obviously a straight fluff thing, but basically when you can start cast Epic Magic, YOU HAVE SURPASSED THE GODS (as written)

ya i actually agree/disagree, depends on how you want to take it.
Either mystra needs epic spellcasting, or epic spellcasting surpasses her.
In a fluff stand point, maybe epic spellcasting draws more power then even she is able to but she can still deny you the ability to connect to the weave.
Wow this went into DM territory alot farther then i suspected.

[j_spencer93]

Yeh. I wont be using mystra (probably) because just saying "no magic for you" might be just a taaad OP.
But here's what im thinking:

1) Loop time stop
2) Clothes of ice assassins
3) Buffed with every printed spell, made permanent via Alter reality.
4) A crapload of feats, that have been chaos shuffled into useful things.

Any easy ways to get those physical/mental stats up there? Some shenanigans with psionic powers perhaps?

well she is an extreme example. This might work on other deities but honestly those that i KNOW it works on are kinda...why would you even target the god of farming for example lol

[Bad Wolf]

Mystra can be beaten. She can't effect divine spellcasting, so be a Cleric or a Druid.

[Blackhawk748]

Mystra can be beaten. She can't effect divine spellcasting, so be a Cleric or a Druid.

Or use the Shadow Weave, still gonna take a lot of work but now its fight instead of a "nope" fest.

[j_spencer93]

Mystra can be beaten. She can't effect divine spellcasting, so be a Cleric or a Druid.

actually as RAW no, that isn't true. It does not call out arcane and divine, it literally says spells and spell-like abilities that draw upon the weave. Unfortunately this gets shakey with some authors saying one way and the other. However in Faerun both do draw upon the weave (its why both fail during the weave failing), so divine goes out the window.

[j_spencer93]

Or use the Shadow Weave, still gonna take a lot of work but now its fight instead of a "nope" fest.

shadowcasting is the 100% legal way, divine is sketchy and up to DM just like psionics, while arcane is strictly negated.
EDIT: actually divine and arcane both are a no. She can even strip other gods of their magic btw. Now psionics are questionable since in the psionics part of faerun they say they draw on the weave so a DM could go either way.
And lets move past that even, her ability to create an magical item and warp reality is a deal breaker also. Actually RAW she can simply create that item that gives you Epic Spellcasting and you now got a stronger force before you.

Why would tippy need to make a god better to fight a wizard is my real question?

[Genesic]

So... any tips for me?

[Blackhawk748]

Why would tippy need to make a god better to fight a wizard is my real question?

Because hes bored and sick of looking at Wizard 20/Cleric 20 on its statblock?


So... any tips for me?

Send Moradin after him, he'll know what your PC is gonna do 15 weeks ahead of time because of his Portfolio sense (their god going into battle is an event that should affect most dwarves) and he can prepare accordingly. Oh and he can just beat the mage into the dirt with his spiffy hammer.

[j_spencer93]

So... any tips for me?

belt of magnificent something, miniatures handbook can give up to +6 to every stat.
Wait are you trying to both the wizard or the god, because me and blackhawk gave an answer to opposite sides lol

[Genesic]

I want to have a god beat a mid level caster who has save DC's of: Yes

Another thing i just thought up is the fusion/astral seed trick, to get the best stats around.

[j_spencer93]

if thats the case, any greater deity. They flat out would stomp him. Maybe even intermediate deities, hell throw bahamut at him.
Bahamut is super smart. So grapply wizard, beat the living crap out of wizard. done.

[Genesic]

Yeh. I get it they stomp. Please tell me which abilities they use to stomp, and in what combinations. That is what I'm trying to figure out.

[j_spencer93]

Yeh. I get it they stomp. Please tell me which abilities they use to stomp, and in what combinations. That is what I'm trying to figure out.

oh ok i understand now. Sorry. I will edit this post with some ideas.
Obviously the portfolio sense like moradin to sense any war or event that impacts a vast majority of his followers weeks in advance is a good example.

Bahamut has DC 60 or you disintegrate ability. Another area of effect breath that turns all those in range to gaseous form. And another massive cold damage. Also can land on target dealing massive damage (hitting a 40 by 80ft area), tail swipe to eliminate another large group or atleast knock them prone.

[Genesic]

Thanks. Basically here's the idea:
Custom god with 20 class levels and divine rank 20.
Im thinking Psion.
Dont wanna have any WBL before battle starts, nor any buffs (Except maybe contingency celerity).

I think Ice assassins of the enemy mage should be sufficient to atleast counter spell ANY spell he casts at me. Right?
But do suggest more things.

[j_spencer93]

Thanks. Basically here's the idea:
Custom god with 20 class levels and divine rank 20.
Im thinking Psion.
Dont wanna have any WBL before battle starts, nor any buffs (Except maybe contingency celerity).

I think Ice assassins of the enemy mage should be sufficient to atleast counter spell ANY spell he casts at me. Right?
But do suggest more things.

pretty much.
If you want a none caster god to stomp a caster, there are plenty. would be a good lesson in humility getting beat by a noncaster. Bahamut is a good choice still.

[Nousos]

Dont wanna have any WBL before battle starts, nor any buffs (Except maybe contingency celerity).


Thing is, unless this is purely for a organized gentlemanly duel between them, there is no reason a deity would not already have himself buffed with everything possible he can think of at all times. The effort to do so is trivial to them.

[j_spencer93]

Thing is, unless this is purely for a organized gentlemanly duel between them, there is no reason a deity would not already have himself buffed with everything possible he can think of at all times. The effort to do so is trivial to them.

he is right. Why give the edge to the player. Make them start on a even field and let that god tear him apart (possible rebuild him after wards lol)

[Psyren]

Miracle. No, really.


As characters of around 60th level, deities can freely pay even large XP costs. Consider that a deity has a cushion of around 30,000 XP it can use every week for creating magic items and casting spells with experience point costs.

What happens when a deity casts miracle? Rather than imploring another deity to perform some task, the deity simply draws from its own divine power. It pays the experience point cost with hardly a second thought, and creates the effect it desires.

[j_spencer93]

Miracle. No, really.

Psyren is right again. Just another way a god is beyond your players.

[gawwy]

I have to ask which save(but you cant)-or lose/die spells is the PC using with a save dc of NO

[Genesic]

I have to ask which save(but you cant)-or lose/die spells is the PC using with a save dc of NO

It's a Tainted Scholar. There IS a DC save, but it's in quadruple digits.
Also, looking for a way to buff will save, since the guy has a mark of Nessus. The DC isn't absurdly high, but I'm not gonna say no to an amazing will save to beat it.
Preferably some way other than omniscificer trick.

[j_spencer93]

also i thought save or die spells didn't work on gods. i could be wrong but pretty sure. Also they don't eat, breathe, etc so all those options go out.

[Genesic]

They probably don't because normally the gods auto saves with a 20. Xept this time there's a silly houserule that 20 isn't a auto win, but instead just turns into a 40 instead. I'm told it's an epic rule or something.

[j_spencer93]

They probably don't because normally the gods auto saves with a 20. Xept this time there's a silly houserule that 20 isn't a auto win, but instead just turns into a 40 instead. I'm told it's an epic rule or something.

i don't see anything like that...anyways in the rules given then deities are weaker then they should be but still powerful. hell a 40
+ deities saves has several with saves close or over 100

If you simply update Mystra to 3.5 btw she gets a hell of a lot stronger with up to level 25 spells without a feat. Seriously, i know of topic, but holy cow lol

[jedipotter]

Just curious. What would a deity use to crush a lowly mortal?


Any powerful ability, effect or spell works for a god the same way it works for anyone. For example a god can use Trap the Soul with a trigger object. The foe touches the gem and with no save or spell resistance they are trapped in the gem. A Scintillating Pattern will give anyone confusion for at least one round, no save....but it has spell resistance. Storm of Vengeance has some no save effects. And there is always spam summonings.

And then there is the ''fun interpretation'' stuff:

Gate: A god can call up a lowly mortal as long as they are ''extraplanual'', like if they are anyplace other then the Prime. The god can then command you to do just about anything. Gate is vague as to what can be done, so that means anything can be done.

Reverse Gravity: The spell has no save(mostly) and the poor target ''reached the top of an area in one round''. The ''top'' of an area is very vague. You can make use of that.

Otto's Dance: The spell has no save, but has SR. And the spell makes it impossible for the subject to do anything, other then dance. Yup, anything. So one touch and the foe can not do anything for a couple of rounds.

And that is just core spells.

[j_spencer93]

abilities that can create items at will can create the given weight dropping it on you. good way to kill.
alter reality- abuse as you wish.
able to create items- restricted by deity but still powerful.

selune has a strike that can destroy 15,000 ft of non-living material
divine blast are powerful

hard thing to answer honestly because deities have unique abilities, so your made up deity has alot of stuff it can do depending on how you create it.

[Deophaun]

I am sorry for using Mystra, but since she seems to be the most killed god i think it is a little humerous to prove how plot helps with this.
Of course, she's the most killed because it seems death isn't much of a problem for her, so why should she worry about it? :smallbiggrin:

[j_spencer93]

Of course, she's the most killed because it seems death isn't much of a problem for her, so why should she worry about it? :smallbiggrin:

lol more like she is the easiest way to cause mass changes to the realm through a good story lol, although according to the new books she is basically impossible to actually kill. as long as their is a piece of her in the realm she can come back, so her chosen basically keep her alive as does special items holding fragments of her.

[Jack_Simth]

Im just watching said Scholar (who is level 12 or so) taunt how he is powerful enough to kill gods. So im thinking of running a god vs him to show him how wrong he is. Sadly, I have to abide by present house rules. Main one is the nat 20 rule.
Oh. THat's actually not so hard.

First: Tainted Scholar does not give a save DC of YOU FAIL. It gives you a DC based on your Corruption score - which can go really, really high -but it's not open-ended for most: "A character’s taint score applies as a penalty to his Constitution and Wisdom scores" - unless you fall under another clause: "Only undead and creatures with the evil subtype can ignore taint."

So if he had a Con of 18 rolled, has a +2 to it from race, put all three of his level boosts into it (being 12th), has a +6 Con item, and somehow squeezed in a Manual+5, then he's got a Con of 34. Assuming he managed to do that for Wisdom as well (illegal, as he already spent his three level boosts, but ignoring that...) then his maximum taint while still being conscious and alive is 33 (at which point, he'd be treated as having a Con of 1 and a Wis of 1 - almost blind, almost deaf, and nearly as fragile as the paper his character is written on). If he tosses all 33 points of Taint into Corruption (as that's where DC comes from), then he's got a problem: Needs Depravity to cast spells. At 12th, he should have access to 6th level spells, so he needs a Depravity score of at least 6. So he can have, at most 27 in Corruption (barring race shenanigans). His save DC is, therefore, no worse than 10+6+(27/2, truncated)=29 (before such things as Spell Focus, of course) - and if he's doing that, he's got basically no bonus spells (which are based on Depravity)... and if he blows even one save, he's dead.

So lets take a look at the Divine Rules (they're part of the SRD, conveniently indexed at http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm)
"Most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well"
OK, so a deity natively invokes the Epic rules. 20 HD of outsider provides +12 to saves (they're all good), and even the low end of the character level spectrum (30 levels), in Epic, provides another +15. Ignoring items, spells, class features, and base stats, the deity already has +27 to saves vs. that DC 29, and beats the improbable save DC on a 2. Oh, and we're not done yet: "Deities also gain a +1 bonus on saving throws at 22nd level and every other level thereafter." As a 20HD outsider with 30 class levels on top of that, the level is 50, which means +15 more, so a modifier of +42 (nice number, by the way), and we STILL haven't gotten to actual class features, spells, items, base stats, or the effects of Divine Rank. Divine Rank grants a bonus on saving throws equal to the divine rank - so a minimal rank 20 deity is rocking a +62 before class features, spells, items, or base stats. Add in the little issue that the deity is rolling a 'natural 20' on every save, and that with your house rule that's calculated as a 40, this means the DC has to hit 103 before the deity no longer auto-saves... and that's still ignoring base stats, items, spells, and class features. Let's go with a rank 1 deity - +43 before items, spells, class features, or base stats, doesn't auto-fail on a 1 (also doesn't always nat-20).

Stats aren't specified, so before items, your minimum deity has... well, the standard array for a critter with class levels: 15/14/13/12/10/8, arrange to suit. With 50 hit dice total, that's +12 to the ability score of choice just from hit dice. So 27/14/13/12/10/8, arrange to suit.

Now let's make a Lawful-Good minimal rank-1 deity. Let's make him Charisma-SAD.
Paladin: 2 level dip for Divine Grace and Charisma to saves.
Monk: 2 level dip for Evasion and Wis to AC (we'll change this later).
Pious Templar (Complete Divine): 1 level dip for Mettle.
Sorcerer-6 (for 3rd level Arcane, Charisma-based spells).
Loremaster-19 (for Epic bonus feats, full casting progression on Sorcerer).

Skills: Max out UMD. You'll see why later.

Domains: Let's go with.. Envy (for Wish) and Planning (for Time Stop). Why? The Deity gets to use them as at-will spell-likes (which means no costs). Wish creates items, Time Stop means the deity can have all the time in the world. Minimal deity, so only two domains.

Equipment: Because of Wish at will, the deity gets +5 Inherent to all stats. Also a +6 Belt of Magnificence. So that 27/14/13/12/10/8 array from earlier is now 38/25/24/23/21/19. Also any item it wants, immediately, ignoring costs completely.

Feats: Now, we've got a lot of feats, most of them Epic; of the Epic, except for one feat for Epic Spellcasting, dump them all into that nifty little Epic feat called Great Charisma. You should have something like 13 of them - one for Epic Spellcasting, 12 for Great Charisma. For the regular level ones, a fun one for this build is Ascetic Mage, which changes that Monk AC bonus from Wis to Cha. Otherwise, just have fun, and meet your PrC requirements (not hard). So that's a 50 in Charisma, for a +25 modifier, which is applied to all saves. Also a Vest of Resistance. Oh yes, and we still haven't gotten to spells....

And this MINIMIAL deity can have ALL OF THEM up by way of duplicating most via Wish, and the rest via UMD'ing scrolls. Plus 50 Craft Contingent Spells of Greater Celerity, and Foresight, so that the deity always goes first.

Way in advance, the diety makes an Ice Assasin of ... well, any arcane caster of 17th level or better. Doesn't matter what, doesn't matter who. The real reason is for sharing Time Stop, repeatedly, so the deity can time stop, make a Wish for a suitable scroll of Ice Assasin, Transport Travelers Wish over to the original Ice Assasin, and share more Time Stops with the original ice assasin sufficient for it to use the scroll. And then do it again, and again, and again, and again. Then Transport Travelers Wish back to the original battle site, this time equipped with ... oh, thirty Ice Assasins of the person attacking. Then (while still Time Stopped, just re-casting it over & over - at will, you know) the deity equips these Ice Assasins identically to the attacker via repeated applications of the item creation clause of Wish.

The deity then leaves and lets nature take it's course, seeing as how the Ice Assasins inherently want to kill their original. The deity just uses remote sensing to sit back and laugh. The player dies to his own impossible save DC, times 30. Even if the player actually manages to target the deity with a spell successfully... the saves are pretty much "LOL Nope". And this is a rank-1 deity.

Now, the save thing changes if the player has the Evil subtype (via Savage Species being the quick & dirty way) or is undead (Necropolitan from Libris Mortis being the most common route), in which case he *might* have taint and depravity scores of "neener neener". Doesn't really matter, in the end, though.

[j_spencer93]

Oh. THat's actually not so hard.

First: Tainted Scholar does not give a save DC of YOU FAIL. It gives you a DC based on your Corruption score - which can go really, really high -but it's not open-ended for most: "A character’s taint score applies as a penalty to his Constitution and Wisdom scores" - unless you fall under another clause: "Only undead and creatures with the evil subtype can ignore taint."

So if he had a Con of 18 rolled, has a +2 to it from race, put all three of his level boosts into it (being 12th), has a +6 Con item, and somehow squeezed in a Manual+5, then he's got a Con of 34. Assuming he managed to do that for Wisdom as well (illegal, as he already spent his three level boosts, but ignoring that...) then his maximum taint while still being conscious and alive is 33 (at which point, he'd be treated as having a Con of 1 and a Wis of 1 - almost blind, almost deaf, and nearly as fragile as the paper his character is written on). If he tosses all 33 points of Taint into Corruption (as that's where DC comes from), then he's got a problem: Needs Depravity to cast spells. At 12th, he should have access to 6th level spells, so he needs a Depravity score of at least 6. So he can have, at most 27 in Corruption (barring race shenanigans). His save DC is, therefore, no worse than 10+6+(27/2, truncated)=29 (before such things as Spell Focus, of course) - and if he's doing that, he's got basically no bonus spells (which are based on Depravity)... and if he blows even one save, he's dead.

So lets take a look at the Divine Rules (they're part of the SRD, conveniently indexed at http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm)
"Most deities are 20 HD outsiders with 30 to 50 character levels as well"
OK, so a deity natively invokes the Epic rules. 20 HD of outsider provides +12 to saves (they're all good), and even the low end of the character level spectrum (30 levels), in Epic, provides another +15. Ignoring items, spells, class features, and base stats, the deity already has +27 to saves vs. that DC 29, and beats the improbable save DC on a 2. Oh, and we're not done yet: "Deities also gain a +1 bonus on saving throws at 22nd level and every other level thereafter." As a 20HD outsider with 30 class levels on top of that, the level is 50, which means +15 more, so a modifier of +42 (nice number, by the way), and we STILL haven't gotten to actual class features, spells, items, base stats, or the effects of Divine Rank. Divine Rank grants a bonus on saving throws equal to the divine rank - so a minimal rank 20 deity is rocking a +62 before class features, spells, items, or base stats. Add in the little issue that the deity is rolling a 'natural 20' on every save, and that with your house rule that's calculated as a 40, this means the DC has to hit 103 before the deity no longer auto-saves... and that's still ignoring base stats, items, spells, and class features. Let's go with a rank 1 deity - +43 before items, spells, class features, or base stats, doesn't auto-fail on a 1 (also doesn't always nat-20).

Stats aren't specified, so before items, your minimum deity has... well, the standard array for a critter with class levels: 15/14/13/12/10/8, arrange to suit. With 50 hit dice total, that's +12 to the ability score of choice just from hit dice. So 27/14/13/12/10/8, arrange to suit.

Now let's make a Lawful-Good minimal rank-1 deity. Let's make him Charisma-SAD.
Paladin: 2 level dip for Divine Grace and Charisma to saves.
Monk: 2 level dip for Evasion and Wis to AC (we'll change this later).
Pious Templar (Complete Divine): 1 level dip for Mettle.
Sorcerer-6 (for 3rd level Arcane, Charisma-based spells).
Loremaster-19 (for Epic bonus feats, full casting progression on Sorcerer).

Skills: Max out UMD. You'll see why later.

Domains: Let's go with.. Envy (for Wish) and Planning (for Time Stop). Why? The Deity gets to use them as at-will spell-likes (which means no costs). Wish creates items, Time Stop means the deity can have all the time in the world. Minimal deity, so only two domains.

Equipment: Because of Wish at will, the deity gets +5 Inherent to all stats. Also a +6 Belt of Magnificence. So that 27/14/13/12/10/8 array from earlier is now 38/25/24/23/21/19. Also any item it wants, immediately, ignoring costs completely.

Feats: Now, we've got a lot of feats, most of them Epic; of the Epic, except for one feat for Epic Spellcasting, dump them all into that nifty little Epic feat called Great Charisma. You should have something like 13 of them - one for Epic Spellcasting, 12 for Great Charisma. For the regular level ones, a fun one for this build is Ascetic Mage, which changes that Monk AC bonus from Wis to Cha. Otherwise, just have fun, and meet your PrC requirements (not hard). So that's a 50 in Charisma, for a +25 modifier, which is applied to all saves. Also a Vest of Resistance. Oh yes, and we still haven't gotten to spells....

And this MINIMIAL deity can have ALL OF THEM up by way of duplicating most via Wish, and the rest via UMD'ing scrolls. Plus 50 Craft Contingent Spells of Greater Celerity, and Foresight, so that the deity always goes first.

Way in advance, the diety makes an Ice Assasin of ... well, any arcane caster of 17th level or better. Doesn't matter what, doesn't matter who. The real reason is for sharing Time Stop, repeatedly, so the deity can time stop, make a Wish for a suitable scroll of Ice Assasin, Transport Travelers Wish over to the original Ice Assasin, and share more Time Stops with the original ice assasin sufficient for it to use the scroll. And then do it again, and again, and again, and again. Then Transport Travelers Wish back to the original battle site, this time equipped with ... oh, thirty Ice Assasins of the person attacking. Then (while still Time Stopped, just re-casting it over & over - at will, you know) the deity equips these Ice Assasins identically to the attacker via repeated applications of the item creation clause of Wish.

The deity then leaves and lets nature take it's course, seeing as how the Ice Assasins inherently want to kill their original. The deity just uses remote sensing to sit back and laugh. The player dies to his own impossible save DC, times 30. Even if the player actually manages to target the deity with a spell successfully... the saves are pretty much "LOL Nope". And this is a rank-1 deity.

Now, the save thing changes if the player has the Evil subtype (via Savage Species being the quick & dirty way) or is undead (Necropolitan from Libris Mortis being the most common route), in which case he *might* have taint and depravity scores of "neener neener". Doesn't really matter, in the end, though.

that is a great example of why i say deities are broken.

[Jack_Simth]

that is a great example of why i say deities are broken.
No argument there. If they're built to their strengths, yes, they're pretty much unbeatable by mortals (if you ignore spells like Teleport Through Time, but that gets into some nasty questions of which came first, paradox, and a few other things).

Oh, and all deities get Portfolio Sense, which means they know in advance of any event that impacts their portfolios (1 week per rank). Them getting killed? That impacts their portfolios. So this rank-1 deity knows he'll be attacked a full week in advance of it actually happening.

This is, however, a rather poor imitation of how Tippy would build a minimal deity. After all, Epic Magic and prep time means neigh-infinite Solars donating spell slots for arbitrary Epic spells at DC 0.

[j_spencer93]

ya alot of deity abilities are also pretty loosely worded leaving some pretty larger DM areas for interpretation. But the portfolio sense basically means you are not catching one off guard.

[j_spencer93]

oh i have a better way to show him who is boss, make a greater deity (divine rank 25+) no stats, and their abilities are literally beyond mortals to the point they don't have normal stats. nothing says you couldn't stat on though.

[gawwy]

What is the PCs taint score out of curiosity? what is the pcs saves? im assuming the PC is undead?

if we know these things then we can reduce the amount of effort needed for the deity to embarrass the PC.

any other defenses/imunities would be good to know.

[Emperor Tippy]

By being a better caster?

Deities have access to Alter Reality. That is any spell from any spell list that the deity desires to be permanent being permanently active on the deity without actually counting as magic, supernatural, or other suppressible types (outside of near the Spire in the Outlands).

One level of Ardent for the Magic Mantle means that it applies to powers as well.

The various other divine powers and abilities that a deity has are enough to give it a decisive edge over a high level caster that lacks those same abilities, regardless of other factors. At least when the deity largely has the same level of optimization as the high level caster.

This is especially true if the deity is a greater deity with portfolios like Knowledge, Magic, Secrets, Planning, etc. It's hard to beat a person who knows every single action that you are going to take 20 weeks before you even take the action. Especially when you lack any way to negate this ability.

[Eldariel]

It gets really messy once you go to extreme OP and it's rough for a player to say anything relevant without massive reductionism. Once you begin factoring in every participant having infinite actions each turn coupled with omniscience ('cause elemental weirds are silly) and the ability to traverse time.

Vecna-blooded might be big game for the mortal but even it is far from unbeatable. It of course boils down to time travel mechanics, creativity with epic spells and quite possible a moment lasting eternity. Depends on the deity too, of course. I can't say I could figure it out without far more established a scenario. This one has too many unknowns.

[j_spencer93]

By being a better caster?

Deities have access to Alter Reality. That is any spell from any spell list that the deity desires to be permanent being permanently active on the deity without actually counting as magic, supernatural, or other suppressible types (outside of near the Spire in the Outlands).

One level of Ardent for the Magic Mantle means that it applies to powers as well.

The various other divine powers and abilities that a deity has are enough to give it a decisive edge over a high level caster that lacks those same abilities, regardless of other factors. At least when the deity largely has the same level of optimization as the high level caster.

This is especially true if the deity is a greater deity with portfolios like Knowledge, Magic, Secrets, Planning, etc. It's hard to beat a person who knows every single action that you are going to take 20 weeks before you even take the action. Especially when you lack any way to negate this ability.

I didnt even think about alter reality that way

[Belial_the_Leveler]

180 days before you decide to annoy it, the greater deity senses that you will do so. Not wishing to be interrupted in the future the deity uses Alter Reality to replicate the effects of Miracle, moving you and your allies from your current location (whatever that might be and regardless of local conditions) into the nearest sphere of annihilation.



Doesn't matter if you're an epic level character, a TO caster and with Epic Spellcasting to boot. If a greater deity wants you dead, you die. Any further questions should be adressed to Rovagug (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396077-Rovagug)

[gooddragon1]

There is one conceivable way that comes to mind: A very loose interpretation of pun-pun. As in, you do the sarrukh deal and gain manipulate form and give yourself abilities not actually in the game. Then wait a year (greater than 180 days) and go after the deity. Of course, I'm not even sure that would work given tippy would be running the deity/universe.

[j_spencer93]

an i think a deity would catch on to your plan before you finished it. They are known for sealing away deity level creatures (actually the bottom of pandemonium is used for it).

[Belial_the_Leveler]

The deity lets you become Pun Pun - then uses True Shapechange to become you, gaining all your abilities while keeping its own. :smalltongue:

[j_spencer93]

oh god, all gods become pun-pun...and i thought they were OP before.

[gooddragon1]

The deity lets you become Pun Pun - then uses True Shapechange to become you, gaining all your abilities while keeping its own. :smalltongue:

Ha, no.

I Win the game (Ex)

Your first mistake was thinking I would let you make a second. Abilities of ~ cannot be copied or gained. No one but ~ may use manipulate form even if they had it as an ability. ~ is not affected by attacks or any harmful effect of any kind. ~ cannot be harmed in the past. This ability cannot be removed from ~. ~ can grant himself any ability he can think of with no action required and use this ability even when it isn't his turn as many times as he chooses. Etc...

Then just add... something? Maybe plagiarize the mortiverse or something.

[j_spencer93]

not to mention that pun pun idea is 100% up to the dm. no DM would say yes

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Except the deity still kills you.

For example it could invent a spell that specifically messes with Pun-Pun even if it would be normally impossible to do so. There's no limit to what spells a deity with the right SDA can invent without even researching them.
For another example, it could craft a major artifact that specifically destroys Pun-Pun. Just as with invented spells, there's no limit to what major artifacts can do.
For a third example, it could use Divine Creation to make a creature with the ability "this creature ignores the effects of manipulate form even if it normally couldn't", then True Shapechange into said creature to get the ability.
For a last example, it could travel into the past and mess your origins, the origin of the sarukh, or both.




A greater deity can have any one of several divine powers that are individually as strong as the Pun-Pun. And because it's faster, more perceptive and more powerful than any mortal, it will not just use those powers first - it will retroactively have used them long before any mortal tries to become the Pun-Pun.

[j_spencer93]

exactly! they stop you before you do it.

[Psyren]

There is one conceivable way that comes to mind: A very loose interpretation of pun-pun. As in, you do the sarrukh deal and gain manipulate form and give yourself abilities not actually in the game. Then wait a year (greater than 180 days) and go after the deity. Of course, I'm not even sure that would work given tippy would be running the deity/universe.

Pun-Pun's ascension would ping on just about every portfolio sense in the pantheon and get smacked down hard.

[Studoku]

The deity re-writes history itself so the Wizard's parents invent the create food trap instead of conceiving him.

[Shining Wrath]

A properly optimized deity crushes a properly optimized mortal every day and twice on Sundays. By definition.

Whatever trick the mage does to increase his power - time travel, contingency, unlimited wealth, demiplanes - the deity did a hundred billion times before the earliest ancestor of the mage was created on the Prime Material plane.

In fact, given Portfolio knowledge, the deity knows the mage is coming weeks in advance, and goes back in time to keep the mage from ever existing at all. The mage does not exist, no one who ever knew the mage exists, the atoms that made up the mage are destroyed and replaced with equal numbers of the same elements, et cetera.

EDIT: Alternatively, the deity just asks ... very nicely ... if the Lady of Pain will take care of this problem. Surely a deity can find some way to make a deal with the Lady. Go mess with the gal who makes all the Mary Sues wish they could be her.

[Ilorin Lorati]

EDIT: Alternatively, the deity just asks ... very nicely ... if the Lady of Pain will take care of this problem. Surely a deity can find some way to make a deal with the Lady. Go mess with the gal who makes all the Mary Sues wish they could be her.

You wanna see a deity get mazed? That's how you see a deity get mazed.

[Shining Wrath]

You wanna see a deity get mazed? That's how you see a deity get mazed.

That's why the deity asks nicely. Just point out to the Lady that a wizard who kills a deity is likely to get all uppity and act like a big shot.

[j_spencer93]

Basically your mage can't beat a deity even if it isn't ran by tippy, so imagine if tippy and all those damn loop holes were applied to a deity

[Psyren]

That's why the deity asks nicely. Just point out to the Lady that a wizard who kills a deity is likely to get all uppity and act like a big shot.

Isn't she insane? She could decide to get uppity no matter how nice you were about it. And if not she might simply say "no," if she answers at all.

[gooddragon1]

Except the deity still kills you.

For example it could invent a spell that specifically messes with Pun-Pun even if it would be normally impossible to do so. There's no limit to what spells a deity with the right SDA can invent without even researching them.
For another example, it could craft a major artifact that specifically destroys Pun-Pun. Just as with invented spells, there's no limit to what major artifacts can do.
For a third example, it could use Divine Creation to make a creature with the ability "this creature ignores the effects of manipulate form even if it normally couldn't", then True Shapechange into said creature to get the ability.
For a last example, it could travel into the past and mess your origins, the origin of the sarukh, or both.




A greater deity can have any one of several divine powers that are individually as strong as the Pun-Pun. And because it's faster, more perceptive and more powerful than any mortal, it will not just use those powers first - it will retroactively have used them long before any mortal tries to become the Pun-Pun.

It takes a while for a deity to make things, the "right" salient divine ability requires that they have it and that means you can pick one of the pre-established ones to pick on or just shut down salient divine abilities and then it becomes a game of cops and robbers (bang I got you/nuh uh). In fact, just shut down all magic in the first place in your ability and phrase your ability such that it doesn't trigger portfolio sense. This way, they only know that you shapechanged into the sarrukh and wouldn't even care. With everything not mundane (so magic, psionics, etc.) shut down (except for you) and the ability being undetectable you cannot be stopped except by the DM saying no. Block out time travel and such and no one could do anything about it (other than the DM). Sure you could have a wacky SDA in advance, but I doubt most published deities do. Now note, I did say that the DM would have to allow this rules interpretation in the first place which no sane DM would do. However, this means tippy might allow it because he'd have to be crazy inventive to come up with the tippyverse (note the word crazy in there).

[j_spencer93]

actually some deities can just create them. Like that.

[gooddragon1]

actually some deities can just create them. Like that.

Some, not all. Pick on one that doesn't. And they might not do it in the first place with no reason to do so...

[jedipotter]

exactly! they stop you before you do it.

D&D does not support this, but:

Your average God is very, very old. Shar, from the Forgotten Realms 35,000+ years old and even Bane is a good 1,000 some years old. Just think of the things they would have after even just 100 years....

The 18 year old high level mage, is noting compared to the 1,000 years. The god already knows all the tricks, and how to counter them.

And that does not even count that they can ''make some rocks fall'' on any 1st level wizard they did not like.

[gooddragon1]

D&D does not support this
Precisely. I'm operating under the assumption they do not know.


Other stuff...


, but:

Your average God is very, very old. Shar, from the Forgotten Realms 35,000+ years old and even Bane is a good 1,000 some years old. Just think of the things they would have after even just 100 years....

The 18 year old high level mage, is noting compared to the 1,000 years. The god already knows all the tricks, and how to counter them.

And that does not even count that they can ''make some rocks fall'' on any 1st level wizard they did not like.

[riccaru]

Why would a mortal not become pun-pun? and since we're all into the paradoxical time shenanigans of a diety going back in time and killing pun-pun before he ascends and thus negating the deity's knowledge of the ascension, why can't pun-pun go back in time to defend their younger self. Yay paradox!

Also, the forgotten realms stories are not RaW. Only the rulebooks are.

[j_spencer93]

actually no paradox. the deity knows your going to try it before you even try it. no paradox involved. plus honestly no PC should even know the way to become punpun, thats just horrible roleplaying.

[j_spencer93]

D&D does not support this, but:

Your average God is very, very old. Shar, from the Forgotten Realms 35,000+ years old and even Bane is a good 1,000 some years old. Just think of the things they would have after even just 100 years....

The 18 year old high level mage, is noting compared to the 1,000 years. The god already knows all the tricks, and how to counter them.

And that does not even count that they can ''make some rocks fall'' on any 1st level wizard they did not like.

um actually yes they do. they gave gods the ability to see events early if they affect their portfolio. its that simple and actually clearly written. saying D&D does not support this is saying D&D ignore this line because our players want ways to beat thing that they cant.

[riccaru]

actually no paradox. the deity knows your going to try it before you even try it. no paradox involved. plus honestly no PC should even know the way to become punpun, thats just horrible roleplaying.

Pun-Pun told himself from the future. Pun-Pun also went back in time and gave himself Vecna's inability to be sensed in any way. It really just devolves into two unkillable beings locked in struggle forever because att he highest level of optimization neither one will have a weakness.

[Forrestfire]

Really, I think the only way to resolve it at that point is to somehow trick one of them into invoking a timestorm on themselves... Except those never got updated to 3rd edition, so we're just going off of old fluff at that point.

[Psyren]

Your average God is very, very old. Shar, from the Forgotten Realms 35,000+ years old and even Bane is a good 1,000 some years old. Just think of the things they would have after even just 100 years....

The 18 year old high level mage, is noting compared to the 1,000 years. The god already knows all the tricks, and how to counter them.

And that does not even count that they can ''make some rocks fall'' on any 1st level wizard they did not like.

Not discounting this, but isn't Kelemvor like 60?

[j_spencer93]

Pun-pun is walking DM fiat, if we are using his ability to make up crap to make him invincible then this could get interesting to put it a nice way lol

[LokeyITP]

Thankfully splendor can't be rules-lawyered to be a death effect like life and death can (although that one is easier to use). Don't think you need much divine rank for counterspell either, who cares if they have DC no then?

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Why counter the spells? A greater deity with Alter Reality in its own domain can counter the actions themselves, as often as it wants.


You cast a damaging spell? It heals whoever you damaged.
You kill someone? It wishes them to life.
You call/summon a creature? It calls the creature away from you.
You teleport or move away from a location? It miracles you back to that location.
You change shape? It wishes you back to your normal shape.


When someone legitimately has both any effect they want at-will and control over time in their location, it is impossible for mortals to defeat them.

[Ruethgar]

The Wizard goes to a fast time plane with his Mirror Mephit and gets divine rank > Ao.

[j_spencer93]

The Wizard goes to a fast time plane with his Mirror Mephit and gets divine rank > Ao.

2 problems with this, i am not aware of any way to gain a divine rank but lets say there is. Ao would stop you way before because then you are approaching the point you ruin the balance set by him between gods and mortals. Plus Ao is unstated and has no known divine rank except that he literally is beyond all the gods powers (seriously, poor tyr)

[One Step Two]

Just wanted to add a couple things. You can find the Dieties and Demigods FAQ Here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) which, among other things tells you that a god has:


All the deities in Deities and Demigods have a standard array of ability scores (similar to the standard array for NPCs in Chapter 2 of the DUNGEON MASTER’s Guide). The standard array is 35, 28, 25, 24, 24, 24. To this standard divine array, the Deities and Demigods designers added +1 for every 4 class levels a deity had and +1 for every point of divine rank. Certain deities also received racial ability adjustments for the races they created or rule over. For example, Corellon Larethian received elf racial adjustments.

But something else to remember, is the kind of god he want's to throw down against. Some are subtle, and other spiteful. An Aleax is a form of divine judgement, usually used by good gods, making him fight himself is hilarious. By the same token, a god can simply use his Alter Reality ability, to remove all taint from them, then they point and laugh. And all this can be achieved through an Avatar, so the Diety doesn't even need to be there to commit the deed himself.

[riccaru]

Just wanted to add a couple things. You can find the Dieties and Demigods FAQ Here (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20030221a) which, among other things tells you that a god has:



But something else to remember, is the kind of god he want's to throw down against. Some are subtle, and other spiteful. An Aleax is a form of divine judgement, usually used by good gods, making him fight himself is hilarious. By the same token, a god can simply use his Alter Reality ability, to remove all taint from them, then they point and laugh. And all this can be achieved through an Avatar, so the Diety doesn't even need to be there to commit the deed himself.

Does altar reality do that? I thought it had a list of specific things it could do.

[Shining Wrath]

And of course it gets more complicated than Deity versus Mage because the mage has friends, while the deity ...

has a pantheon. And at least some members of the pantheon are loyal to any particular deity, even in CE pantheons where loyalty is based on a self-serving calculation.

So even if you imagine taking out a deity, you now have to deal with other deities going back in time and undoing what you did.

[tyckspoon]

Does altar reality do that? I thought it had a list of specific things it could do.

Depends on if you take the 'Benefit' section as rules with 'Notes' as just clarifying specifics on certain kinds of actions, or if 'Notes' is a restrictive and exhaustive list of what the 'Benefit' section means.. not that it matters too much, as one of the things you can explicitly do with Alter Reality is mimic Miracle or Wish. And as has been pointed out, when a deity Miracles for itself to grant a deific intervention for itself, it can pretty much do whatever it wants.