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View Full Version : Pathfinder Daudreider - Mounted initiating "Hellknight-/Black Seraph Knight-ish" PRC



upho
2015-02-04, 09:29 PM
http://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/c_scale,w_670/v1423161083/daudrider_utan_eihwaz_iwb9gt.png
- Pathfinder Prestige Class -

http://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/v1423162953/Heldrang_-_mounted_small_scythe_blue_eyes_skullhelmet_framed _cropped_Hellknight_uoqs1v.png
The daudreiders are the officers of the ancient Heldrangar order. Mounted on menacing undead
steeds, clad in heavy black armor and armed with their cruel signature scythes, these
frightening warrior priests are the uncompromising crusaders of law and executioners of Hel -
symbols and omens of Death every bit as renowned and certain as carrion birds or the crossed
Eihwaz runes worn on their chests.

The daudreider is a leader of heavy cavalry, combining maneuvers, divine spells, team tactics and the supernatural powers of her intelligent undead steed to defend her allies and the laws of Death. She and her mount are especially deadly when fighting her sworn enemies: the forces of chaos and the undead. Most daudreiders start as warder or warlord hussars, but a few also begin as paladins, ambush hunter rangers, or another class with a mount.


The daudreider prestige class was made primarily for a homebrew campaign setting largely based on Scandinavian mythology (daudreider means “death-rider” in Old Norse). The Heldrangar (“Hel-warriors”) order which the daudreidari are a part of, could basically be described as a mix of the Black Thorn Knights (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/martial-traditions/black-thorn-knights) and the Hellknights (http://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Hellknights) in a world where realm of Death (the location Hel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(location)), not the goddess Hel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(being))) is the ultimate symbol of absolute law and Hell, the one with two “L’s”, doesn’t exist. The class first came into being in order to give an important NPC suitable abilities, but as I figured the flavor and the mechanics could be appropriate (with minor tweaks) for characters in similar organisations in virtually any fantasy setting, I decided to do a detailed write-up.

In short, the class aims to portray a heavily armored and intimidating scythe-wielding warrior priest and field commander, mounted on a sentient undead(-ish) steed with ghost-like powers.

The daudreider PrC has the following mechanical goals:

Scale the durability and versatility of a mount animal companion (the one gained at 1st character level) enough to retain and increase its usefulness even in higher levels.
Enable a divinely empowered cavalry officer, mixing limited divine casting with mounted martial maneuvers, and teamwork/defender abilities with offensive power.
Make use of various abilities typically associated with undead creatures.
Balanced to tier 3.


(As noted above, the Heldrangar symbol is a pair of crossed Eihwaz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eihwaz) runes and should not be confused with the now infamous swastika. Or to quote the order’s stated view on the matter: “Any resemblance to other symbols, including those used by organisations with supposedly similar sound beliefs or methods, is either purely coincedental, or examples of base plagiarism on the part of the creators of those symbols.”)




http://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/v1423161095/daudrider_class_features_tkgh3c.png

Requirements
Alignment: Any lawful.
Weapon Proficiency: Proficient with the scythe.
Feat: Haft Strike (https://pathminder.github.io/feats/haft-strike/) or Pikeman's Training (https://pathminder.github.io/feats/pikemans-training/), Mounted Combat.
Skills: Intimidate 5 ranks, Knowledge (religion) 2 ranks, Ride 5 ranks.
Maneuvers: Ability to use maneuvers of the Black Seraph or Piercing Thunder disciplines.
Special: Divine bond (mount), hunter's bond (animal companion), or mount class feature with an effective druid level of 5. The animal must be a combat trained dog, camel, horse or pony at least one size larger than the daudreider.


Skills
The daudreider's class skills are Bluff (Cha), Diplomacy (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (martial) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spellcraft (Int), and Survival (Wis).

Skill Ranks per Level: 4 + Int modifier.


Class Progression



Spells per Day


Level
BAB
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th



1

+0

+1

+0

+1
Death’s hand, reaper maneuvers, spells, undead charger

2

-

-

-

-

-



2

+1

+1

+1

+1
Death’s guardian

3

1

-

-

-

-



3

+2

+2

+1

+2
Formations, inexorable charger

3

2

-

-

-

-



4

+3

+2

+1

+2
Reaper knight

4

2

1

-

-

-



5

+3

+3

+2

+3
Amaranthine charger, death’s guardian (-3)

4

3

2

-

-

-



6

+4

+3

+2

+3
+1 Formation

5

3

2

1

-

-



7

+5

+4

+2

+4
Implacable charger

5

4

3

2

-

-



8

+6

+4

+3

+3
Death’s guardian (-4), reaper knight (ignore fear immunity)

5

4

3

2

1

-



9

+6

+5

+3

+5
Imperative charger, +1 Formation

5

5

4

3

2

-



10

+7

+5

+3

+5
United in death, undead charger (undead traits)

5

5

4

3

2

1



Hit Die: d8

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
The daudreider gains no new weapon or armor proficiencies.


Reaper Maneuvers
At every even-numbered level, a daudreider gains new maneuvers known she qualifies for from one of her daudreider disciplines: Black Seraph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/black-seraph-maneuvers), Piercing Thunder (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nDfExp_kV3Ck7yi5cfPo7Ndc_KCmp8pr84xY2FmZw3s/edit) (see Path of War: Expanded page 128 for the released version), and up to two other disciplines previously available to her, chosen at 1st level. She adds her daudreider levels to her initiator level to determine her total initiator level and her highest-level maneuvers known.

At levels 3rd, 6th and 9th, a daudreider gains an additional maneuver readied per day, and at 2nd, 5th, and 8th levels she may exchange a known maneuver for a different maneuver that she qualifies for (see table below). At each even daudreider level, she may also retrain one of her maneuvers or stances of other disciplines into a maneuver or stance of a daudreider discipline of the same level.

A scythe wielded by a daudreider deals 2d6/x3 piercing and slashing damage (2d4 if small), has the reach and trip features, and belongs to the heavy blades, polearms and spears groups. She treats the scythe and any other Black Seraph or Piercing Thunder discipline weapon she wields as a holy symbol, and she can cast daudreider spells while doing so (without the need of a free hand).


Stances Known
At 3rd and 8th level a daudreider learns a new martial stance from one of her daudreider disciplines. She must meet the stance's prerequisites to learn it.


Daudreider Maneuvers and Spells Known



Maneuvers

Spells Known


Level
Known
Readied
Stances
0th
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th



1

0

0

0

3

2

-

-

-

-

-



2

1

0

0

3

3

1

-

-

-

-



3

0

1

1

3

3

2

-

-

-

-



4

1

0

0

4

3

2

1

-

-

-



5

0

0

0

4

4

3

2

-

-

-



6

1

1

0

4

4

3

2

1

-

-



7

0

0

0

4

4

3

3

2

-

-



8

1

0

1

5

5

4

3

2

1

-



9

0

1

0

5

5

4

3

3

2

-



10

1

0

0

5

5

4

4

3

2

1




Spells
A daudreider may cast a small number of divine spells drawn from the inquisitor spell list. To cast a daudreider spell, she must have an initiator ability score of at least 10 + the spell's level. Bonus spells are based on her initiator ability score, and saving throws against her daudreider spells have a DC of 10 + spell level + her initiator modifier. She casts spells just as an oracle does, including the ability to replace a daudreider spell with a new spell at every even-numbered level, beginning at 4th level. 0th level spells, or orisons, may be cast at-will from her spells known (see the tables above for spells per day and spells known). The caster level of her daudreider spells is equal to her initiator level. If the character qualified for this class using Martial Training feats, her spellcasting is Wisdom-based.


Death’s Hand
Whenever a daudreider initiates a martial strike, she may also cast a standard action daudreider spell (with a level equal to or less than the level of the strike initiated) on herself or an ally within her melee reach as a move action. Whenever she casts a spell in this manner, allies within her melee reach also gain a morale bonus to saving throws against fear and to their save DC against demoralization attempts equal to her class level. These bonuses remain for a number of rounds equal to her class level.


Undead Charger
A daudreider rides a sentient companion which eventually becomes undead, a symbol of her oath to Death and an increasingly powerful ally in her order’s crusade against chaos and undead. See the Daudreider Mount section below.

Whenever the daudreider is mounted on her undead charger and uses a combat maneuver, martial maneuver, stance or style feat with a movement component (such as a charge attack, a bull rush, an extra move action, or a bonus to speed), the daudreider can have her mount make the appropriate movement and gain associated benefits in her place. When making a charge (granted by a martial maneuver or otherwise) while mounted, the daudreider and her mount are both considered to be charging. If she must make her charge attack(s) before a target is within her mount's melee reach (for example in the case she wields a reach weapon), the mount may continue moving and make its charge attack(s) after the daudreider's charge has been completed.


Death’s Guardian
At 2nd level, when a daudreider damages an enemy with a martial maneuver, she can also impose a -2 penalty to the enemy’s attack and damage rolls against her allies, besides her mount or herself, provided the enemy or the target of its attack is within her melee reach. Neither she or her mount provoke attacks of opportunity from the affected enemy. If the enemy is chaotic or undead, the penalties are doubled and it also suffers a -2 penalty to saving throws against fear effects from the daudreider or her mount. These effects last until the start of her next turn (the effects do not stack).

The penalties to attack and damage rolls increases to -3 at 5th level, and to -4 at 8th level.


Formations
At levels 3, 6, and 9, a daudreider learns one formation to assist both herself and her allies. If the daudreider has levels in another class which grants formations, those levels stack with her daudreider levels for the purpose of determining the benefits of her chosen formations. See the hussar (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M6VC1CGrL85oC2mE22eoBXyKjD-Z9a9bhom8JhTirKM/edit) for details on formations (released version found in Path of War: Expanded, page 52).


Inexorable Charger
At 3rd level, a daudreider’s mount gains a darker, more shadowy and frightening appearance, and becomes increasingly relentless in its service. It gains:

Fly speed (Su) equal to the mount’s land speed with good maneuverability, and a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to its Hit Dice.
Phantom Form (Su) As a free action, up to 2 times per day and daudreider level, the mount can turn shadowy and indistinct for one round. The mount gains constant concealment (20% miss chance) when not in a brightly lit space, its natural armor and attacks gain the ghost touch property, and it takes no penalties from squeezing. When charging, the mount can move through allies, and can make one Demoralize attempt as a free action against a creature within 10 feet at any point during its charge movement.
Death’s Destrier +2 racial bonus to Strength and pounce special ability. The mount’s secondary natural attacks (if any) become primary natural attacks with at least a 1d4 damage die (1d6 if Large), and it’s speed is not affected by wearing barding of any kind.
Intimidating Prowess as a bonus feat.


Reaper Knight
At 4th level, when attacking a chaotic or undead creature while mounted, the daudreider and her mount gain a bonus to their attack and damage rolls equal to half the daudreider’s initiator modifier (minimum 1). If such a creature takes damage from the daudreider while suffering from a fear condition, any fear effect the daudreider or her mount exposes the target to before the end of her next turn also stacks with the previous effect for a more severe condition, even if the effects normally do not do so.

At 8th level, any creature the daudreider or her mount damages loses its immuntiy to fear (if any) while within the daudreider's or her mount's melee reach. A creature normally immune to mind-affecting effects gains a +5 resistance bonus to its save, and a +10 bonus to its demoralize DC against these effects.


Amaranthine Charger
At 5th level, a daudreider’s mount simply refuses to give up, and not even its own destruction can hold it back for long. It gains the following abilities:

Does not need to breathe.
Deathless Form (Su) Once per day if the mount is destroyed, it returns to unlife 1 hour later at 1 hit point. It is permanently destroyed if it is reduced to 0 hit points by negative energy or in the area of an unhallow or a bless spell cast by a chaotic or undead creature, or if its remains are sprinkled with a vial of unholy water. The use of Deathless Form expends two uses of Phantom Form (the mount must have at least two uses of Phantom Form left when destroyed to return to unlife).
Relentless Presence +2 racial bonus to Charisma.


Implacable Charger
At 7th level, the abilities of a daudreider’s mount ensures any subversive element would have to be more than exceptionally resourceful to escape swift judgement. It gains:

Combat Reflexes as a bonus feat, even if the mount does not meet the prerequisites.
Specter Form (Su) As a free action, the mount can turn near incorporeal for one round. This form grants the mount all the benefits of Phantom Form, but the concealment is total (50% miss chance) when not in a brightly lit space, and the form grants constant detect undead (caster level equal to the mount’s hit dice). The mount’s movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity, and it is as unaffected by physical obstacles and line of sight as if made using the dimension door spell (with the same effect if ending in an occupied space). This only affects the mount, the daudreider (while mounted), and their gear. Each round the mount uses Specter Form it expends two of its daily uses of Phantom Form. This is a conjuration (teleportation) effect.
Uncanny Senses The mount may add its Charisma modifier to Perception and Sense Motive skill checks, instead of its Wisdom modifier.


Imperative Charger
At 9th level, the mount gains its final majestic appearance and can grow with its rider into gigantic proportions. It gains:

Fly speed increases to 1 ½ times the mount’s base land speed.
Imposing Form (Su) While mounted, as a move action or as part of a charge or adopting a formation she knows, the daudreider can choose to have herself and her mount instantly grow one size category larger for one minute, as if under the effects of an enlarge person spell. If the mount becomes huge or larger, the normal +2 bonus to Strength increases to +4, and it gains a +2 bonus to Charisma. This ability immediately ends if the daudreider is no longer mounted, if either she or her mount becomes unconscious, or if she chooses to end it as a free action, but otherwise remains in effect until all rounds per day have been expended, without the need for taking additional actions. This ability can not grow the daudreider into a size larger than Huge, or her mount into a size larger than Gargantuan, but otherwise stacks with abilities and spells affecting the daudreider’s or her mount’s size. Each use of Imposing Form expends one of the mount’s daily uses of Phantom Form. This ability can be used simultaneously with Phantom Form or Specter Form.


United in Death
At 10th level, the daudreider can focus her divine and martial energies to unite with her companion in undead glory. When the mount uses its Phantom Form or Specter Form while the daudreider is mounted, she can expend one of her unused spell slots or a readied martial maneuver as a free action to gain the benefits of the mount’s form, its undead benefits listed as points number 2 - 5 (in the mount spoiler section below), and its lack of a need to breathe. The mount gains all applicable benefits of any martial stance the daudreider uses (treating its natural weapons as discipline weapons for this purpose), and may use the death’s guardian ability when dealing damage with a natural attack. The pair can also adopt any formation as a free action, and they gain a +2 bonus to the save DC of any fear effect they produce.

This ability lasts for a number of rounds equal to the level of the spell or maneuver the daudreider expended, or until her mount leaves the form, the daudreider is no longer mounted, or she or her mount becomes unconscious (whichever comes first).


A daudreider’s mount becomes sentient and starts its transformation into an undead creature after a one-day initiation ritual, lead by the Master of Rites at one of the order’s chapels. The abilities the mount gains are often called Helvegsins gjafar (Old Norse: “the gifts of the road to Hel”), and the ritual is not considered inherently evil. Instead, daudreiders as well as the undead animals regard it as the product of the daudreider’s and her companion’s fully consentual agreement with Death, in many ways quite the opposite to how undead are normally created.

For each level a daudreider gains, her mount’s abilities progresses as if she had gained a level in druid, but it’s creature type changes to half-undead at 1st level, and to undead at 10th level. The mount is still treated as an animal companion for the purpose of the daudreider's or its own associated class features, feats, abilities and spells. It also keeps all its abilities and statistics unless otherwise noted here, and gains additional traits and benefits depending on the daudreider’s class levels:

No Constitution score. Instead, at 1st level, the mount’s Charisma score becomes equal to its previous Constitution score. The mount uses its new Charisma score in place of Constitution when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution.
Half-undead +1 racial bonus per daudreider level to saving throws against any effect which targets Fortitude (unless it affects objects), and against mind-affecting, death, stunning, bleed, exhaustion, fatigue, disease, paralysis, poison, and sleep effects.
Darkvision 60 feet.
No penalties from energy-draining effects, though the mount can still be destroyed if it accrues more negative levels than it has Hit Dice. After 24 hours, any negative levels it has gained are removed without saving throws.
Not subject to nonlethal damage, not at risk of death from massive damage, and at 10th level also immune to ability damage to Strength and Dexterity.
Immediately destroyed at 0 hit points or if it’s Charisma score is reduced to 0 or less.
Healed by any energy type channeled by allies but regains only half the normal Hit Points.
Harmed by any energy type channeled by enemies but gains Channel Resistance +4 against such harmful energy, and takes only half damage on a failed save and suffers no damage or ill effects on a successful save.
Not subject to the control undead spell, the Command Undead feat or similar abilities allowing control of undead.
Raised as undead Raise dead, reincarnate, resurrection and true resurrection returns the mount as (half-) undead if the daudreider’s soul is present on the same plane. If not, the mount is raised as normal.
Does not need to eat or sleep, but can do so (for example in order to drink a potion).
4 + Intelligence modifier skill points per Hit Die and undead class skills.
Lawful neutral alignment.
Sentient +5 racial bonus to Intelligence.
Grave Stable (Su) As a full-round action, a daudreider may either dismiss her adjacent mount to Hel up to three times per day, or call it from Hel to a free adjacent space up to three times per day.
Share Spells ability, even if the mount is no longer an animal or has an archetype which normally replaces it.
Share Growth (Su) While the daudreider is mounted, her mount’s size is always at least one category larger than the daudreider’s size (as if affected by one or more enlarge person spells).
Speak with Master Can speak with the daudreider as a familiar with the same ability. The mount also knows one language the daudreider knows (her choice), but cannot speak. (Sentience and the ability to communitcate makes animal companion tricks irrelevant - the mount can follow any instructions it is able to understand.)

Should a daudreider's mount be destroyed, the daudreider may find another qualified mount to serve her after 1 week of mourning and by paying her order a sum equal to 500 gp per character level (the cost of a new initiation ritual). Once the ritual is completed, the new mount has changed according to the daudreider’s level.


Currently, I think the daudreider captures the flavor I envisioned perfectly, but I feel the mechanical benefits are a bit too powerful and perhaps a bit too disparate. Please help me nerf and streamline them without sacrificing the flavor of the class!

Any advice/praise/critique/suggestions/ideas are most appreciated!

Here's a Google docs version (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1FH8a2_to7KwuYLCOCCgqi9dvmSgshhno8wY3tpndmiQ/edit?usp=sharing), with more links and better layout. And pictures! Yes, even of cool daudreiders and their undead horsies!!!



http://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/v1423177398/That_s_it_from_death_small_nfc1gv.png

Credits:

The Path of War (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war)/Path of War: Expanded (http://dreamscarred.com/product/path-of-war-expanded/) team at Dreamscarred Press (http://dreamscarred.com/)
Vikings! For their cool, odd and extremely flavorful RL mythology. (Not for the stupidly complex grammatical rules of their language...)
Everyone posting!

upho
2015-02-05, 06:13 PM
Feels kinda lonely here... :smallfrown:

I've imported everything (besides som pics) from Google docs and formatted it. Hopefully makes the OP look a bit more interesting at least.

Kymme
2015-02-07, 01:55 PM
I don't have a ton to say other than this: I'd play it. It seems extremely well put together, and I can see the amount of effort you put into it.

The skull at the end is a little over-the-top, though. :smalleek:

upho
2015-02-09, 04:07 PM
I don't have a ton to say other than this: I'd play it. It seems extremely well put together, and I can see the amount of effort you put into it.Thank you!

I'm a bit worried about the power level though. You can achieve similar results by using elements from Paizo and DSP (like a warder hussar 3 / cleric (animal domain) 4 / battle templar 10 + companion feats), but it will be more MAD and requires a greater investment in companion feats and items. And even though you'll be able to end up with a greater number and stronger spells and an increased defensive capacity, you'll also have less offense and even more disparate abilities.


The skull at the end is a little over-the-top, though. :smalleek:You mean ol' Blackie "Brainburn" Barebones? He's an annoying bugger, but I can't seem to get rid of him. But don't worry about him, he barks a lot more than he bites. And besides, if he actually decides to get his lazy empty skull into your dreams, he'll invariably be caught up simply watching, too amazed to even think about trying to bring you any nightmares.
:smallwink:

Doomeye56
2015-02-10, 11:07 AM
I like it.

Its now on my list of classes i'm planning to use.

I'll post any feedback I have on it after.

Elricaltovilla
2015-02-10, 11:56 AM
Daudreider levels don't stack with other class levels that give mount/animal companion class features? Probably need to fix that.

This class gives a lot to a character, its positively dripping with class features and flavor. I like the idea of getting unique armor/weapons/barding for joining up, but I think you take it a little far. The scythe is fine the way it is, it doesn't need a "better" version, especially not since you can't even use it til 12th level. At that point a free +1 weapon is kind of a joke. I feel similarly about the armor.

Since this is basically a mounted Hell-Knight class, I'd take a close look at those prestige classes to get an idea of how their class features interact with their unique equipment and try and bring your class features (the ones related to equipment) in line with that. A free Master Craftsman feat for modifying the weapons/armor wouldn't be out of the picture though.

upho
2015-02-11, 11:58 AM
I like it.

Its now on my list of classes i'm planning to use.

I'll post any feedback I have on it after.Thanks a lot! Would be really great to hear your feedback on how it worked in your game. I'm personally hoping to see it in action this weekend, but in my case that may not happen depending on what the PCs decide to do.


Daudreider levels don't stack with other class levels that give mount/animal companion class features? Probably need to fix that.From the "Daudreider Mount" section:

For each level a daudreider gains, her mount’s abilities continues to progress as if she had gained a level in druid /snip/
Do you think this perhaps needs to be made more obvious?


This class gives a lot to a character, its positively dripping with class features and flavor.I believe it currently suffers from both being too wild-grown and the "flavor above all"-syndrome, which is never a good thing for potential player material in particular or game content with any mechanical impact whatsoever in general, IMO. And yeah, I really think it would be great if I could get rid of some class features, especially some of the more complex ones. But nice to know at least the flavor seems to be distinct and can be felt in all elements.


I like the idea of getting unique armor/weapons/barding for joining up, but I think you take it a little far. The scythe is fine the way it is, it doesn't need a "better" version, especially not since you can't even use it til 12th level. At that point a free +1 weapon is kind of a joke. I feel similarly about the armor.Oh, noticed that, did you... :smallredface: These two features I've already rewritten and tweaked way more times than all the other combined, which I should probably take as a clue that they're ready for the trash bin and it's time to try a completely different approach, I guess... :smallsigh:


Since this is basically a mounted Hell-Knight class, I'd take a close look at those prestige classes to get an idea of how their class features interact with their unique equipment and try and bring your class features (the ones related to equipment) in line with that.Well, I did consider doing exactly that, but I found the Hellknight Enforcer's and Commander's armor related stuff granted too big and too arcane casting related and/or "infernal"-flavored benefits in total, and what I was aiming at (mechanically speaking) would be difficult to translate into a similar concept. Mechanically, I primarily wanted to address that it's normally very difficult or impossible to keep both your own and your mount's gear up to par in higher levels if going by standard PC WBL, and that, by RAW, medium/heavy barding as well as using a throwing shield as a ranged back-up weapon come with too many limitations and demand too significant minimum investments (makes flight impossible, special material versions too expensive, too feat and stat intense vs. gain in this case, don't allow for iterative attacks, etc.).

Regarding their "unique weapon" feature, I found it too strong for this class and not very unique. But it doesn't really matter since I have to agree with what you said - the daudreider doesn't need an equivalent anyhow.

But I probably should try to copy those PrC's solution to the "getting unique armor for joining / achieving certain title"-thing when I rewrite the armor feature.


A free Master Craftsman feat for modifying the weapons/armor wouldn't be out of the picture though.Hey, this is a really neat idea! Though I guess Craft Magic Arms and Armor would be even more suitable, considering the class is a caster that already gains Spellcraft? (I also think Master Craftsman frankly eats up a too many skill points in order to be useful for higher level stuff.)

And I still really would like to do something about the quite insane heavier barding base costs (for example, a hellknight plate barding in mithril would cost no less than 44,000 gp, no magic included). But maybe the cost can be reduced by circumventing the need for special materials etc. Anyhow, I'll try building on the craft concept, sounds a lot better than the current long-winded and difficult-to-use in practice feature.

Thanks a ton for your feedback, and of course for the hussar which made me even consider this PrC and the NPC which inspired it in the first place!

Which reminds me, I've completely forgotten to give you and Chris/errantX cred in the OP. I'll fix that right away.

upho
2016-04-10, 06:16 PM
Finally! A massive update, including changes and simplifications to most of the class features. I think the daudreider now feels a lot more in line with the expectations of a T3 PrC in PF, while the frankly overpowered and/or needlessly complex mechanics of the original are hopefully all gone.

Comments very much appreciated!

Dazhbug
2016-04-14, 01:08 AM
Oooh, much simplified, although I of course forgot to save a backup copy so now I can't compile a change-list.

I really like the use of both stance and spell; I'm interested in digging into some of the PoW stuff sometime soon, and this gives me a neat chance to do so. I do question what you see as the typical base class(es) that would grow into this, at this point? I don't (currently) know of any that start with both maneuvers and spells, and I'd be curious how you see the PrC stacking on top of either, say, an Inquisitor or a Warder (or perhaps more explicitly a Hussar, since they start with the animal companion mount).

The pre-requisites seem remarkably stringent/limiting, and while I'm okay with that from a knight-order standpoint I feel like it kinda pigeonholes optimal choices for the other ten levels. A Hussar is the clear optimal choice, since you start with everything already (taking the two necessary feats, of course). A paladin, druid, or other is going to need to take at least Martial Training I as well, in order to pick up access to maneuvers. Again, I'd be curious for an example build or two.

Just to confirm, it seems that the only way to get Black Seraph maneuvers is to join the Black Thorn Knights? Easily re-fluffed of course, but I don't see the discipline included in any of the base PoW classes. I don't have access to PoW: Ex though.

Overall, the PrC seems very focused on the mount, aaaaalmost to the detriment (or rather, exclusion from an "interesting powers" standpoint) of the rider. They are of course supposed to function as one combined unit, but in the unfortunate circumstance of the rider and mount being separated, I feel like he/she becomes a rather flavorless... Warder, I guess. With spells though, so there's that. I think I miss the flavor of the armor from the previous incarnation; while it was a bit crazy power-wise, it added a lot to the flavor and intimidation factor of the rider.

Not sure the exact shape of how this would work, but perhaps some of the "Charger" powers become attached to the rider's armor instead? I.e. the rider can activate them when he's away from the mount, but not if he (for whatever reason) is not in armor. Failing that, something cool and flavorful with the armor that isn't a huge power boost, for example perhaps the Daudreider can snap his fingers and don his unique heavy plate (as opposed to the normal time it takes). Small things that add to the imposing image of a dark, hoary deathshead knight.

upho
2016-04-14, 09:14 PM
Oooh, much simplified, although I of course forgot to save a backup copy so now I can't compile a change-list.Let's just say it was a whole bunch of armor and weapon related stuff which tried to "fix" too many Paizo-induced issues at once, and very few things in there were actually vital to the daudreider concept specifically IMO. I'm about to turn that stuff into houserule suggestions and connect it to the Heldrangar Order as a whole instead (more on this later). But until I've got the order stuff up I kept what I felt was the most important part in this context - the scythe proficiency requirement and some incentive to use the scythe, as it's supposed to be the signature weapon of a member of the Heldrangar Order.


I really like the use of both stance and spell; I'm interested in digging into some of the PoW stuff sometime soon, and this gives me a neat chance to do so.I'm glad to be of help! :smalltongue: PoW is awesome. Beats every other martial concept/system I've ever seen for PF/3.5 (it's way more refined, better balanced, and now has much more content than ToB). And the perhaps best parts are that Dreamscarred Press have a very open development process, the writers present and discuss their ideas here on GitP and really listen to what people have to say, and the writers are increasingly GitP regulars. A few early level options from the first book are unbalanced and a few other minor things need fixing, but all these will soon get an errata.


I do question what you see as the typical base class(es) that would grow into this, at this point? I don't (currently) know of any that start with both maneuvers and spells, and I'd be curious how you see the PrC stacking on top of either, say, an Inquisitor or a Warder (or perhaps more explicitly a Hussar, since they start with the animal companion mount).Well, the daudreider gains its own spell progression, so it doesn't stack with that of say an inquisitor or cleric (it pretty much mimics the Mage Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/mage-hunter) in this respect, but grants divine spells instead of arcane). This was intentional, as I wanted the class to be primarily martial.


The pre-requisites seem remarkably stringent/limiting, and while I'm okay with that from a knight-order standpoint I feel like it kinda pigeonholes optimal choices for the other ten levels. A Hussar is the clear optimal choice, since you start with everything already (taking the two necessary feats, of course). A paladin, druid, or other is going to need to take at least Martial Training I as well, in order to pick up access to maneuvers. Again, I'd be curious for an example build or two.Example builds will come! But yes, a warlord or warder hussar is probably an ideal start for most builds, not only because of the "full druid animal companion mount + full initiator"-combo, but also because the hussar grants Formations which stack with daudreider levels, and vice versa. Although there are plenty of ways now that other classes can gain access to martial maneuvers (there are several initiator archetypes for Paizo classes in PoW:E), and in order to qualify for the daudreider it's actually enough to take the Martial Training I feat as you said (although your maneuver recovery mechanism would be substandard and your daudreider disciplines limited to only two).

Likewise, other martial initiator classes/archetypes can gain access to an animal companion mount, via multiclassing or by simply taking the Boon Companion feat. Also not as great a choice as starting as a hussar, but definitely doable. I feel the current version is a bit like the Dragon Disciple or Battle Templar (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/battle-templar) - there are a whole bunch of optional ways to gain entry, but one or two of those are clearly more optimal (draconic sorc or bloodrager in the case of DD, and cleric + ordained defender warder in the case of BT). Regardless, the daudreider is probably the least attractive for base classes with a 6/9 or full spell progression. Although at least some of the 6/9 classes will soon also get some "heldrangar love"!

I'm a bit split on this issue myself though. On the one hand, I would like to make it more attractive for non-hussars. But on the other, the daudreider is actually more than anything else a type of hussar, and it feels natural that it combines best with that class template. In addition, I don't really know how I would make the class features more compatible to other builds without losing flavor or turning it into a complex mess. I'd love to hear any suggestions/ideas you might have on this!


Just to confirm, it seems that the only way to get Black Seraph maneuvers is to join the Black Thorn Knights? Easily re-fluffed of course, but I don't see the discipline included in any of the base PoW classes. I don't have access to PoW: Ex though.Yes, that would be correct if your game would include PoW but not PoW:E. Black Seraph is available per default to quite a few archetypes in PoW:E (for example both of the two new warder archetypes), and there's also a trait that lets you swap in a discipline without having to join a tradition. Also, Piercing Thunder is available to the vanilla warder and warlord and a whole bunch of archetypes.

But more importantly, I'm already working on my own "tradition" for the Heldrangar order, which will include access to Black Seraph and will introduce a bit more radical changes to the affected classes/builds than the suggested ones from DSP. I think it'll turn out to be something like a mix between a very simple class template (compatible with the hussar and probably many archetypes) and a tradition. But regardless, it shouldn't be a problem to gain access via Black Seraph with the options from PoW:E.

And characters that want a similarly Intimidate-based and mechanically "daudreider-friendly" discipline, but don't want any of Black Seraph's maneuvers with the [evil] tag, can instead simply choose the new neutral Eternal Guardian as one of their daudreider disciplines and gain access via Piercing Thunder. Eternal Guardian would probably also be a good complementary discipline for many LE daudreiders focusing on Black Seraph, come to think of it.


Overall, the PrC seems very focused on the mount, aaaaalmost to the detriment (or rather, exclusion from an "interesting powers" standpoint) of the rider. They are of course supposed to function as one combined unit, but in the unfortunate circumstance of the rider and mount being separated, I feel like he/she becomes a rather flavorless... Warder, I guess. With spells though, so there's that. I think I miss the flavor of the armor from the previous incarnation; while it was a bit crazy power-wise, it added a lot to the flavor and intimidation factor of the rider.I'm actually so glad you say that, because the flavor was a major reason why I included it in the first place. But as I realized I needed to make other Heldrangar PrCs (or at least some barebones mechanics) for NPCs in my home game, I felt I shouldn't keep what is actually the Heldrangar Order's flavor in the PrC designed to portray their heavy cavalry officers. Hopefully, I'll be able to make these related components so that people can get "the full package" of a single Heldrangar PrC without having to feel like they need to bring the entire order into their setting. My first thought was to present the options together, but I realized it would be too much information for one thread/document, so I'll probably make some kind of "hub" where I'll put up the more general stuff, including some of the more flavor-heavy things like the Heldrangar armor.

And on top of this, I've already written a somewhat similar PrC for Heldrangar "heretics" who have become necromancers and a related Graveknight-ish creature template, which I have no idea how I'm supposed to present... :smallfrown:

Regarding the whole "function as one combined unit" thing, from having play-tested variations of the daudreider quite thoroughly in different situations by now, they really do feel like that. There's very rarely a reason for the daudreider to actually dismount from a horse that basically fears nothing and can go virtually anywhere, at least not when there might be combat.


Not sure the exact shape of how this would work, but perhaps some of the "Charger" powers become attached to the rider's armor instead? I.e. the rider can activate them when he's away from the mount, but not if he (for whatever reason) is not in armor. Failing that, something cool and flavorful with the armor that isn't a huge power boost, for example perhaps the Daudreider can snap his fingers and don his unique heavy plate (as opposed to the normal time it takes). Small things that add to the imposing image of a dark, hoary deathshead knight.Good idea, actually. I think some of these things should be in the order stuff, though largely for the daudreider I think I want to keep most of the unique mount-related things... But you're right, maybe it could do with something a bit less mount-centric... Hmmm.... I'll see what I can do.

Thanks a ton for your input! Greatly appreciated.

Dazhbug
2016-08-05, 02:15 AM
Hey, no problem! And I'm dying to see some of the larger Heldrangar stuff you're working on; it's giving me Ideas. And I can dig wanting to shift some of the more general powers there. Hmmm, I'll put some thought into things now that I've found the time to get back to this thread.

Just a passing thought, but a subtle alternate flavor of the Coven Agent that works for the Order could be... interesting :smallbiggrin: