Mystras ban on 10th + level spells and... metamagic

[gawwy]

Im currently dming a campaign that might eventually go epic.currently the pcs are level 8ish but one of them is using meta-magic reducers and another is itching to start using DMM.

Im running my campaign is as close as i can get it faerun and have included mystras ban as part of the history and counted epic magic as being banned with it. my question is around whether the ban should stop spells that have been elevated post level 9 with things like DMM and/or spells that have been regular metamagikd past 9 and then reduced to under level 10 using reducers like arcane thesis?

[Cruiser1]

Im running my campaign is as close as i can get it faerun and have included mystras ban as part of the history and counted epic magic as being banned with it.
There are no 10th level spells in D&D 3.5. Forgotten Realms has Mystra's ban as fluff explaining why they're not available, but that only effects actual 10th level spells (which have never existed outside of fluff).

D&D 3.5 does have rules for epic spells, and 10th level and above spell slots that can be filled with metamagiced 9th level spells. If you want to ban epic spells, 10th level spell slots, and metamagic reduction when the effective spell slot is above 9th, you can. That might even be a way to help slightly reduce the power of casters. For example, if you ban megamagic reduction, then no 4th level spell or above can ever be Persisted, because it normally requires a 10th level slot.

[eggynack]

Yes and no. No, I would not ban metamagic reduction applied such that the base spell level would run above 9 on this basis alone, but if you want to remove some of the power from metamagic reduction separately because metamagic reduction is occasionally silly, this would be a reasonable enough thing to do.

[SiuiS]

Im currently dming a campaign that might eventually go epic.currently the pcs are level 8ish but one of them is using meta-magic reducers and another is itching to start using DMM.

Im running my campaign is as close as i can get it faerun and have included mystras ban as part of the history and counted epic magic as being banned with it. my question is around whether the ban should stop spells that have been elevated post level 9 with things like DMM and/or spells that have been regular metamagikd past 9 and then reduced to under level 10 using reducers like arcane thesis?

Mystra does not ban epic magic which uses the epic magic feat (no idea why), and many spells which were tenth level and higher in previous iterations are recreated usig the spell seeds nowadays, ostensibly so there was some form of cost involved.

Should spells higher than 9th level via heighten/etc be banned? Maybe for game balance reasons. It would leave themt level and higher slots as the province of the gods. Lost empires of Faerun can tell you more.


There are no 10th level spells in D&D 3.5. Forgotten Realms has Mystra's ban as fluff explaining why they're not available, but that only effects actual 10th level spells (which have never existed outside of fluff).

This is not true, there are two mentioned tenth level spells, one of which is given mechanics.

[jedipotter]

Im running my campaign is as close as i can get it faerun and have included mystras ban as part of the history and counted epic magic as being banned with it. my question is around whether the ban should stop spells that have been elevated post level 9 with things like DMM and/or spells that have been regular metamagikd past 9 and then reduced to under level 10 using reducers like arcane thesis?

As far as the standard D&D rules go, 9th level spell are the end of the line. You can't have more then nine spell levels in a spell no matter what. So if you have a 9th level spell and a metamagic +3, you simply can't do it.

Note Mystra's Ban does not effect Epic spellcasting at all.

Way, way, way back in 2E there was no spell level limits. There were 10th, 11th and 12th level spells(the one that killed Mystrul was 12th level). After that happened, Mystra banned all spells above 9th level. Though there were ways around it. The idea is the bad stops spellcasters from ''casting a 10th level spell just like a 9th level spell''.

In 3E, the called this Epic Magic.

[Deophaun]

Even without Epic spells, it's theoretically possible to research a 10th level spell. You'd of course need the slot for it, so still can't cast until Epic.

[eggynack]

As far as the standard D&D rules go, 9th level spell are the end of the line. You can't have more then nine spell levels in a spell no matter what. So if you have a 9th level spell and a metamagic +3, you simply can't do it.
That's not the case with most reduction. Aside from metamagic song, and maybe something I'm forgetting that isn't commonly used, metamagic reduction doesn't care about the unmodified level of the spell (Or at least they don't stop you from casting based on it. Metamagic effect, for example, bases the spellcraft DC on the unmodified spell level, but doesn't care that the unmodified spell level is 15.) . So, if you use DMM, or mitigate that +3 with arcane thesis or something, then the 9th level spell with a +3 metamagic is completely possible.

[jedipotter]

That's not the case with most reduction. Aside from metamagic song, and maybe something I'm forgetting that isn't commonly used, metamagic reduction doesn't care about the unmodified level of the spell (Or at least they don't stop you from casting based on it. Metamagic effect, for example, bases the spellcraft DC on the unmodified spell level, but doesn't care that the unmodified spell level is 15.) . So, if you use DMM, or mitigate that +3 with arcane thesis or something, then the 9th level spell with a +3 metamagic is completely possible.

This is open to interpretation.

The 3.5e spells list only spells up to 9th level. And only lists spell slots that high. None of the rules say this is the limit. So, as it does not say that, you could say 33rd level is the limit for spells.

Way one: The rules don't list any spell slots above 9th level, so 9th level is the maximum for spell slots. The rules don't list a 10th or higher level spell slot.

Way two: You can just do whatever you want and ignore the rules. You can say ''15th level spell slots exist'', but then you could just have ''metamagic all cost zero spell levels'' too.

[eggynack]

This is open to interpretation.

The 3.5e spells list only spells up to 9th level. And only lists spell slots that high. None of the rules say this is the limit. So, as it does not say that, you could say 33rd level is the limit for spells.

Way one: The rules don't list any spell slots above 9th level, so 9th level is the maximum for spell slots. The rules don't list a 10th or higher level spell slot.

Way two: You can just do whatever you want and ignore the rules. You can say ''15th level spell slots exist'', but then you could just have ''metamagic all cost zero spell levels'' too.
There isn't really room for interpretation, because you're not using a spell slot above 9th level. You're just using an ordinary 9th level spell slot, that would theoretically have a higher level were it unmodified. An arcane thesis'd silent invisible meteor swarm, for example, never spends any time as a 10th level spell before the game tells you you're preparing and casting a 9th. The game doesn't care what would have been in most cases; all that matters is what is.

[Deophaun]

This is open to interpretation.

The 3.5e spells list only spells up to 9th level. And only lists spell slots that high.
This is not true.

Improved Heighten Spell [Epic]
Benefit
As Heighten Spell, but there is no limit to the level to which you can heighten the spell.

Normal
Without this feat, a spell can only be heightened to a maximum of 9th level.


Spell Slots Above 9th Level

The Improved Spell Capacity feat allows characters to gain spell slots above 9th level (which can be used to hold lower-level spells or spells whose level has been increased beyond 9th by the use of metamagic feats).

[SiuiS]

As far as the standard D&D rules go, 9th level spell are the end of the line. You can't have more then nine spell levels in a spell no matter what. So if you have a 9th level spell and a metamagic +3, you simply can't do it.

Note Mystra's Ban does not effect Epic spellcasting at all.

Way, way, way back in 2E there was no spell level limits. There were 10th, 11th and 12th level spells(the one that killed Mystrul was 12th level). After that happened, Mystra banned all spells above 9th level. Though there were ways around it. The idea is the bad stops spellcasters from ''casting a 10th level spell just like a 9th level spell''.

In 3E, the called this Epic Magic.

I don't recall a twelfth level spell, available to players. I know the epic level handbook for 2e had true dweomers count as tenth level spells, and basically used the same system as 3e to design them though.

There is an actual difference between "spells above 9th level" and "epic magic" though, it's specifically called out in several places. That isn't just what 3e calls epic magic, it's what 3e lore says epic magic actively replaced.


Even without Epic spells, it's theoretically possible to research a 10th level spell. You'd of course need the slot for it, so still can't cast until Epic.

Yes and no. There's a hard limit which you have to actively break; that sounds like it qualifies as 'doesn't (normally) exist' to me.


That's not the case with most reduction. Aside from metamagic song, and maybe something I'm forgetting that isn't commonly used, metamagic reduction doesn't care about the unmodified level of the spell (Or at least they don't stop you from casting based on it. Metamagic effect, for example, bases the spellcraft DC on the unmodified spell level, but doesn't care that the unmodified spell level is 15.) . So, if you use DMM, or mitigate that +3 with arcane thesis or something, then the 9th level spell with a +3 metamagic is completely possible.

A meta magic'd spell in a ninth level slot is just a 9th level spell; you're not actually contradicting what you quoted at all. It still fits the bill; you cannot heighten a spell up to 10th level, and you should t even have 10th level slots. You need special exception for that.


This is not true.

The thing about an exception based system, is you just listed the exceptions which prove the rule; the rule is "you cannot do X" and those exceptions are "through the power of choosing a good option, you can now break the rule and do X".

[eggynack]

A meta magic'd spell in a ninth level slot is just a 9th level spell; you're not actually contradicting what you quoted at all. It still fits the bill; you cannot heighten a spell up to 10th level, and you should t even have 10th level slots. You need special exception for that.

I had assumed the thing I quoted was assuming reduction, as the OP was specifically talking about reduction, and the continued argument after I was still clearly talking about metamagic using reduction indicates that I was correct.

[jedipotter]

This is not true.

Well, can't find that in my Players Handbook.....

[Deophaun]

The thing about an exception based system, is you just listed the exceptions which prove the rule; the rule is "you cannot do X" and those exceptions are "through the power of choosing a good option, you can now break the rule and do X".
Yes, exactly. There is a way to do X. So blanket pronouncements that you can't do X are wrong. If you want to put in a requirement that you need 12th level slots to cast 9th+3 meta spells before reducers, that's one thing. But saying that you can't cast 9th+3 meta spells because 12th level slots do not exist is wrong, because they do.

Well, can't find that in my Players Handbook.....
You must be really confused when someone wants to play a Beguiler.