deity vs demon/devil lord [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Erik Vale

2015-02-05, 12:05 AM

'It's is better to rule in hell then serve in heaven.'
Part of ruling in this case is being so powerful you are equivalent to a god of some status, thus, Divine Rank.

Think of Divine Rank as a term for telling others where you would fit in the hierarchy of the gods, if it was all one pantheon and ruled solely by who was most powerful.

jedipotter

2015-02-05, 12:10 AM

(although crunch wise it does make you wonder why they want to be gods lol)

Power! A God is much more powerful then just about anything else.

Demon Lord Koth is ''just'' Divine Rank 1, but that still makes him more powerful then 99% of all the other demons...and about 90% of everyone else. Except other gods.

j_spencer93

2015-02-05, 12:16 AM

ok i think the divine ranks will work well when applied to demon lords/dukes of hell hightest printed stats, as their true form. Could have sword it gave asmodeus more then the rest but apparently not.
Deities and Demigods says divine rank 0 (different then no divine rank) or divine rank 1.

jedipotter

2015-02-05, 01:16 AM

j_spencer93

2015-02-05, 02:08 AM

actually the way it is worded seems to imply they already have divine rank 0 (thinking they meant no divine rank) but ya rank 1 seems the most appropriate.

Red Fel

2015-02-05, 09:50 AM

actually the way it is worded seems to imply they already have divine rank 0 (thinking they meant no divine rank) but ya rank 1 seems the most appropriate.

Divine Rank 0 isn't "no Divine Rank." Divine Rank -- is no Divine Rank. It's like having Con -- as opposed to Con 0. Most creatures have Divine Rank --, a nonability in Divine Rank.

To even have Divine Rank 0 is to be somewhat divine, possessed of certain qualities and immunities. Divine Rank 1 is where you enter the realms of being an actual deity, albeit one of extremely limited power, including the ability to grant spells to worshipers.

j_spencer93

2015-02-05, 02:48 PM

Divine Rank 0 isn't "no Divine Rank." Divine Rank -- is no Divine Rank. It's like having Con -- as opposed to Con 0. Most creatures have Divine Rank --, a nonability in Divine Rank.

To even have Divine Rank 0 is to be somewhat divine, possessed of certain qualities and immunities. Divine Rank 1 is where you enter the realms of being an actual deity, albeit one of extremely limited power, including the ability to grant spells to worshipers.

ya that is what i was saying. the book seems to say they have divine rank 0, but their stat blocks say other wise.

afroakuma

2015-02-05, 04:05 PM

You need Divine Rank 1 to grant spells......

Archfiends specifically do not grant spells, as they do not natively possess a divine rank unless you are using the variation noted from page 123 of the BoVD. Instead, they act as foci for the malefic powers of the planes they rule and transmit the divine energies of those planes to those who call on them for worship. See the BoVD, FCI and FCII.

j_spencer93

2015-02-05, 04:08 PM

you guys know deities and demigods as a different variant for them giving them divine ranks right?

"Though they are powerful and often revered by those who share their alignment, they reach no higher than divine rank 0."
just a small sentence. But it does go on to say in an alternate setting they might even go up to divine rank 5 but no higher then that.

And the hole devil lords etc don't grant spells is just odd. They act as proxy's for gods, understand that, but it still seems odd.

afroakuma

2015-02-05, 04:45 PM

you guys know deities and demigods as a different variant for them giving them divine ranks right?

I am familiar with the relevant section, yes, but by default they do not possess divine rank.

And the hole devil lords etc don't grant spells is just odd.

Why would it be odd? If they did, they would have far more worshipers throwing around cleric spells. And there would be no need for Fiends of Blasphemy.

They act as proxy's for gods, understand that

No they don't, they act as channels for non-god divine power, sourced from the ideas of evil they represent. In many cases they aspire to become gods via establishing worship.

j_spencer93

2015-02-05, 04:48 PM

I am familiar with the relevant section, yes, but by default they do not possess divine rank.

Why would it be odd? If they did, they would have far more worshipers throwing around cleric spells. And there would be no need for Fiends of Blasphemy.

No they don't, they act as channels for non-god divine power, sourced from the ideas of evil they represent. In many cases they aspire to become gods via establishing worship.

I will concede the first point, but on the last point it is actually not clear where they grant powers from. I know one sources says their followers actually get their powers from evil gods although they worship demon/devils.
BoVD conflicts this though....
EDIT: Maybe i am wrong, i could have sword it said that somewhere but i can not find it now. If so that actually makes more sense to me, since their have followers believe in a concept tied to them.

Well actually it is stated Yeenogho is given as an example after it states demonlord and archdevils do not grant spells as gods do;
"while power- ful outsider and elemental lords exist, they are not gods, and they cannot grant spells to clerics the way deities do. Though they are powerful and often revered by those who share their alignment, they reach no higher than divine rank 0. The demon prince Yeenoghu is a classic example: He is revered by gnoll clerics, but the god Erythnul actually grants them their spells."

Another:
"The demon lords and archdevils described in this chapter cannot grant spells to clerics. Instead, they act as patrons for clerics who devote themselves to abstract sources of divine power, and they assist the clerics of evil gods."

So they do act as proxies to gods, and like any cleric a cleric devoted to one can worship an ideal instead. So actually we were both right.

jedipotter

2015-02-05, 05:24 PM

as they do not natively possess a divine rank

Beings like Orcus are gods that grant spells in the Forgotten Realms.

j_spencer93

2015-02-05, 05:32 PM

in faerun demon lords grant spells? really can i have a book to look in please? i would love to confirm this as i usually run FR

afroakuma

2015-02-05, 05:32 PM

Beings like Orcus are gods that grant spells in the Forgotten Realms.

Qualified statement sort of undermines the argument.

j_spencer93

2015-02-05, 05:36 PM

so basically it depends on the setting, which i assumed but i was not aware of that about FR.

ON another note so a demon/devil lord can either have his minions use the powers of non-divine aspects of reality (law, evil, etc) or be a proxy for a god to grant his minions spells if allied?

afroakuma

2015-02-05, 05:43 PM

ON another note so a demon/devil lord can either have his minions use the powers of non-divine aspects of reality (law, evil, etc) or be a proxy for a god to grant his minions spells if allied?

"Proxy" in a divine context implies something else, but still no. What they (badly) spelled out there is that what Yeenoghu represents is in Erythnul's portfolio, and so Erythnul supplies the power to Yeenoghu's clerics, instead of being able to just draw power from the ideal of wanton slaughter (or from the Abyss itself, as is spelled out in the FCII). Serving as an alias for an actual god makes little sense, especially in the context of divine ambitions, since they would never get anywhere if they were just handing off all of that worship to the god it would ordinarily belong to. Anyway, I'm not really sure what it is you're after in this thread, but I feel like this is a definite tangent.

j_spencer93

2015-02-05, 06:01 PM

"Proxy" in a divine context implies something else, but still no. What they (badly) spelled out there is that what Yeenoghu represents is in Erythnul's portfolio, and so Erythnul supplies the power to Yeenoghu's clerics, instead of being able to just draw power from the ideal of wanton slaughter (or from the Abyss itself, as is spelled out in the FCII). Serving as an alias for an actual god makes little sense, especially in the context of divine ambitions, since they would never get anywhere if they were just handing off all of that worship to the god it would ordinarily belong to. Anyway, I'm not really sure what it is you're after in this thread, but I feel like this is a definite tangent.

oops i forgot proxy was an actual term used, so that would be my mistake. And ok that makes a little more sense, plus i could see why that demon/god would be sorta allied (allied prob ain't the right word).
This conversation got really off track actually. Originally it was asking if it made more sense that use the Divine rank 1 variant for them or maybe even divine rank 0 (i know its not divine rank --, as was misunderstood above)

j_spencer93

2015-02-05, 06:11 PM

did you mean fiendish codex 1? because 2 is above the nine hells.

afroakuma

2015-02-05, 06:13 PM

did you mean fiendish codex 1? because 2 is above the nine hells.

Typo. Still a typo.

j_spencer93

2015-02-05, 06:16 PM

lol i made a typo.
Anyways, ok i think i understand how this all works a little more now. Although i would really like to know where i can read more about how they work in Faerun

jedipotter

2015-02-05, 11:05 PM

in faerun demon lords grant spells? really can i have a book to look in please? i would love to confirm this as i usually run FR

Players Guide to Faeron and Faiths and Pantheons.

There is not all that much written. This is one of them just ignored topics.

ON another note so a demon/devil lord can either have his minions use the powers of non-divine aspects of reality (law, evil, etc) or be a proxy for a god to grant his minions spells if allied?

In FR, each god has legions of servants of all different types, depending on the god. Arch fiends are more fun as several have created whole races to serve them.

Yeenoghu represents is in Erythnul's portfolio, and so Erythnul supplies the power to Yeenoghu's clerics, instead of being able to just draw power from the ideal of wanton slaughter (or from the Abyss itself, as is spelled out in the FCII).

Except in the Forgotten Realms, where Yeenoghu is a god and grants spells to his worshipers.

Qualified statement sort of undermines the argument.

Or maybe proves that one random person on the internet can't ''just say'' something is official for everyone, just because they say so...

Mr.Kraken

2015-02-05, 11:09 PM

What they (badly) spelled out there is that what Yeenoghu represents is in Erythnul's portfolio, and so Erythnul supplies the power to Yeenoghu's clerics, instead of being able to just draw power from the ideal of wanton slaughter (or from the Abyss itself, as is spelled out in the FCII).

Are clerics of Yeenoghu aware that their power do not come from their object of worship?

afroakuma

2015-02-05, 11:52 PM

Except in the Forgotten Realms

...where Erythnul doesn't exist and the statement you're attacking would not have been relevant? :smallconfused:

Or maybe proves that one random person on the internet can't ''just say'' something is official for everyone, just because they say so...

I indicated what the default was. With proper sourcing. A default is certainly not "official for everyone." It is the standard in absence of selected alterations to the contrary.

You, on the other hand, made an unsubstantiated generic claim until pressed to qualify. And still haven't presented anything to countermand my original point.

So yes, I suppose it does prove that one random person on the Internet can't "just say" something is official for everyone, just because they say so.

Now then, if you have an issue with my answer, or with me, I suggest you navigate it to the appropriate channels. Private messaging, perhaps. There's no need for continued off-topic arguing in this thread when the OP is just trying to clarify rules material for his use.

jedipotter

2015-02-06, 12:03 AM

...where Erythnul doesn't exist and the statement you're attacking would not have been relevant? :smallconfused:
Now then, if you have an issue

Well, just pointing out the some peoples answers are not the final answer on something. Sure, someone can say they are so much better then everyone else, but it's not true. The same way the random person is not all ways so right about everything.

afroakuma

2015-02-06, 12:44 AM

Oh certainly. For example, just now I decided to follow up on your claims, per the sources you referenced, and this is what I found:

Any deity not listed on the Monster Deities table or in Chapter 5 of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting does not exist on Toril.

Thrym
Vaprak

So no, Yeenoghu does not seem to count as a god in Forgotten Realms. Not according to your citation, at least. So I checked the other one.

The Abyss has no divine realms, and no true deities make their homes there.

The Nine Hells encompasses no divine realms, and no deities make their homes here.

The archfiends in Book of Vile Darkness - the demon princes and archdevils - inhabit the layers of the Nine Hells and the Abyss just as noted in that book.

So perhaps it was another source. In any event, j_spencer93, there's the legwork done for you on your question. Referring back to your original topic, I don't know that it's relevant but you might start by looking at Deities & Demigods and seeing just what it means for beings with divine ranks to contest one another before you start handing them out to things that do not, by default, have them.

jedipotter

2015-02-06, 02:09 AM

So no, Yeenoghu does not seem to count as a god in Forgotten Realms. Not according to your citation, at least. So I checked the other one.

It's all there on pg. 189. Yeenoghu is listed as a deity.

And, as with all D&D books.....they have bad editing. Orcus is a god in FR, he is on the list of monster gods. The Players Guide says Orcus lives on the Abyss, and also says there are no divine realms on the Abyss.

Bad editing.

j_spencer93

2015-02-06, 03:20 AM

wow all of that is wrong. Not arguing with what you said but i mean by the setting. Orcus is still a demon lord in FR (not sure if good or not actually but have seen him still called a demon lord), their are plenty or divine realms in the abyss (lolth's old one and tiamat's come to mind actually).

Actually during that books printing Orcus should have already lost his divinity i think so that is strange. IF not then it would have been correct because he would have lost it later. As for the divine realm thing...that isn't correct by any stretch of the imagination.
I also can't see where Yeenoghu was a god. Mainly because my player's guide to faerun just vanished seemingly. Prob not compatible with my mac...anyways

Khedrac

2015-02-06, 10:37 AM

Just to muddy the thread (and why not) in the 2nd Ed Manual of the Planes the rules of a Layer (so Archdevils and Demon Princes but not Demon Lords) counted as a Power (i.e. god) whilst on their own layer.
Thus the question of whether a demon or devil is a threat to a deity entirely depended whose layer you were on.

That said, this was also the book that said that Greater Powers could not be killed on their home layer (as they reform) which was interesting a greater powers cannot be killed off their home layer either - they just reform on their home layer...

Ignoring the 2nd Ed rules though, the morphic nature of planes does give the ruler of a layer a lot of power and while most deities might not have any concerns about a demon price/archdevil in normal circumstances, if they are on the fiend's home turf they are going to have to tread very, very carefully. In the case where the deity's domain is on a layer ruled by the fiend things will get interesting (and the fiend can probably cause the deity or it's domain to move layers).

Final point, most deities are going to be inclined to tread carefully around the top fiends anyway. There are a number of known "god-killers" out there, and Elder Evils (which are immune to deity powers) so while the deity should be more powerful (and knows it) they don't want to discover the hard way that this particular fiend has a trump-card tucked away that no-one knew about.

j_spencer93

2015-02-06, 03:28 PM

ok so archfiend has the edge if on their own plane. Also...could an archfiend steal an elder evils power if they wanted?

jedipotter

2015-02-06, 04:12 PM

wow all of that is wrong.

Well, it's a muddle of 30 years of publishing. And very little reading and editing.

ok so archfiend has the edge if on their own plane. Also...could an archfiend steal an elder evils power if they wanted?

Sure, no reason they could not. It would be hard, but it would not be impossible.

j_spencer93

2015-02-06, 05:09 PM

Well, it's a muddle of 30 years of publishing. And very little reading and editing.

Sure, no reason they could not. It would be hard, but it would not be impossible.

think my players will now hate you lol. Also wonder if Asmodeus could steal Zargon's healing abilities to heal his ever bleeding wounds.

jedipotter

2015-02-06, 05:29 PM

think my players will now hate you lol. Also wonder if Asmodeus could steal Zargon's healing abilities to heal his ever bleeding wounds.

Maybe. This kinda depends on how you want the story to go....

Like he could try....and maybe even get a day of it working.....but then have them come right back.

Or maybe it would work, 100%.

j_spencer93

2015-02-06, 06:25 PM

Was just an idea. Actually working on a similar concept for my BBEG

afroakuma

2015-02-06, 06:55 PM

Bad editing.

Oh certainly. Your page 189 also lists the celestial paragons and archdevils as "deities." Mind you, the list is purely a case of domain assignment, but of course if they meant to say "Deities and other things that clerics can worship and gain spells from along with access to a limited but thematic list of appropriate domains which are not deities," that's what they would have written. There's no way "deities" was a shorthand for that other thing. It's much more likely that they accidentally left off ten separate listings from the pantheon index due to bad editing than that a simple shorthand was used in a book which also emphasized the non-divine nature of the archdevils and demon princes.

j_spencer95: go with what works for you, is my recommendation. After all, you're the one who has to run it, in the end. Elder Evils is a great book to source ideas from.