Vampires and Liches in Pathfinder

[Glarx]

I was recently reading through the Pathfinder SRD, and I realized vampires went from LA 8 to LA 2. And also get a bunch of feats. And have enormous attribute increases. Special abilities. New defenses. Darkvision.

Liches remain LA 2, they still have to pay 120,000 gp, and pay a feat to get into the template.

I'm just curious -- in what way are vampires balanced? The big thing in 3.5, from what I understand, is that the stifling level adjustment made them entirely untenable. But Pathfinder seems to swing way too far in the other direction. Am I just missing something?

[Milo v3]

You're comparing the wrong thing. The CR of vampires and lich's didn't change in the transition to PF, and PF doesn't have LA.

[Glarx]

Well I'll be, you're right.

So I'll amend the question to... why would anyone go lich when they could go vampire? :smallconfused:

[Milo v3]

Well I'll be, you're right.

So I'll amend the question to... why would anyone go lich when they could go vampire? :smallconfused:

This mainly:

Vampires cannot tolerate the strong odor of garlic and will not enter an area laced with it. Similarly, they recoil from mirrors or strongly presented holy symbols. These things don't harm the vampire—they merely keep it at bay. A recoiling vampire must stay at least 5 feet away from the mirror or holy symbol and cannot touch or make melee attacks against that creature. Holding a vampire at bay takes a standard action. After 1 round, a vampire can overcome its revulsion of the object and function normally each round it makes a DC 25 Will save.

Vampires cannot enter a private home or dwelling unless invited in by someone with the authority to do so.

Reducing a vampire's hit points to 0 or lower incapacitates it but doesn't always destroy it (see fast healing). However, certain attacks can slay vampires. Exposing any vampire to direct sunlight staggers it on the first round of exposure and destroys it utterly on the second consecutive round of exposure if it does not escape. Each round of immersion in running water inflicts damage on a vampire equal to one-third of its maximum hit points—a vampire reduced to 0 hit points in this manner is destroyed. Driving a wooden stake through a helpless vampire's heart instantly slays it (this is a full-round action). However, it returns to life if the stake is removed, unless the head is also severed and anointed with holy water.

And if you're playing in Golarion it's even worse because vampires have feeding rules.

[Glarx]

While I have your attention, what's your opinion of graveknights?

[Milo v3]

While I have your attention, what's your opinion of graveknights?

Really cool; the near indestructibility of their armour is very thematic, they possess and reshape the bodies of people who wear their armour, works really well with NPC's really well since you can get more out of Cha with dumping Con, channel destruction seems relatively useful since your effectively getting free enchantments that scale, minions built in is useful but you'd have to find someone to animate the corpses first, their mount is always awesome, devastating blast isn't as useful since it's per day but I can see it being used.

But, most warrior types focus on having decent con before they die, so many graveknights will be missing out on some lost ability scores and may become more vulnerable health-wise. The rejuvenation, AC buff, and undead immunities do help in that area though.

[meschlum]

I'd suggest looking here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?352704-Templates-and-you) for a more in depth review.

Remember that thanks to Pathfinder's CR = Level rule and the ensuing party advancement rule, you're really paying only half price (eventually) for CR up to 8. So both of these cost one level in the long run.

Lich is bad. It gives a better sort of immortality, but is otherwise worse than most of what you can get from being undead with +2 CR.

Vampire is middling, heavily combat focused due to feats and generally underwhelming mental stat bonuses for the cost. Quasi immortality is nice, too. The alternate vampire types can give you a lot more (telekineis at will, for instance). Ghost gives you better immortality and special powers, but worse melee boosts.

Graveknight is superior in terms of defenses and attributes.

For serious benefit / cost considerations, look at Trench Juju Zombie and Penanggalen, which are CR +1 and almost as good or better number-wise. Add Advanced for bonus cheese and improved stats, at the same CR.

[Glarx]

I'm considering a sorcerer or summoner that'll eventually go graveknight. (I don't want to take the advanced template, at least not at this stage of planning.) The Arcane Spell Failure is pretty hideous, but I figure if I go synthesist summoner I won't need to worry about it. But I'm a total newb when it comes to Pathfinder.

Would you suggest sorcerer or summoner, or something else entirely? Also, that's a gorgeous thread you linked (and authored)!

[Erik Vale]

Look at some of the vampire varients, Lat*mumble* can move around in sunlight I think.

For Gravenight, note what you have to do to get in deliberately. It's harder to get into than Liche [though much cheaper.], seeing how you've got to dedicate your actions from level 1-12, and then you've a 11% minimum chance of it failing. Lich's just cost money, and vampires are even easier to become, if more vulnerable.

Now, if allowed, I'd suggest you deconstruct Celestial Armor for its -15% ASF and apply it to Mithral Breastplate if possible. You have 0% AFS. If DSP is allowed there's Merging armor, which combines with Mithral to remove up to 20% ASF.

However, my preference for Grave Knights?
Magus [Eldritch Scion] using Construct Armor (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/building-and-modifying-constructs) with the Shield Guardian Template (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/shield-guardian) as it's armor. Make Whole will repair your armor, even when it's been destroyed. Clockwork Mage is the best to turn into armor if you're medium due to the number of HD.

[Psyren]

Ghost is the one you want. They also got bumped down but lost none of their upside - any alignment, powerful defenses, basically indestructible underneath them, and you get to keep all your gear and class features from when you were alive. If you're a high-level witch you can even get one as a cohort, near enough.

[Glarx]

Being evil for 9 levels, then going on a crusade for 2. 25% chance of failure, but +1%/point of charisma. I could easily have 25 Charisma by level 11, so that's not a big concern. It costs far less, it does take more feats (since I'd need to be proficient with heavy armor), and the abilities are significantly superior to the woeful lich. It's really not that restrictive of a template to get. The finding a patron thing is the toughest part. Also, the mithral breastplate doesn't work. The armor has to be heavy. :smallfrown:

I'm trying to go Charisma-based caster as well, which is why magus doesn't really work for me.

[Milo v3]

I'm trying to go Charisma-based caster as well, which is why magus doesn't really work for me.

The above mentioned Eldritch Scion archetype makes the magus charisma based.

[Glarx]

The above mentioned Eldritch Scion archetype makes the magus charisma based.

That's what I get for not being smart. :smallredface:

[Erik Vale]

The armor has to be heavy. :smallfrown:

What?
*Scrambles*
*Swearing*
Well... If you start at high enough a level you could have spontaneously become on... But that's really annoying, because construct armor is medium instead of heavy. [For some reason you treat it as breasplate instead of fullplate]


Ghost is the one you want. They also got bumped down but lost none of their upside - any alignment, powerful defenses, basically indestructible underneath them, and you get to keep all your gear and class features from when you were alive. If you're a high-level witch you can even get one as a cohort, near enough.

But, ghosts automatically die if they fulfil their purpose, and becoming one deliberately doesn't seem to be an option. As such, it's rather easy for the GM to declare your character dead.

[Psyren]

But, ghosts automatically die if they fulfil their purpose, and becoming one deliberately doesn't seem to be an option. As such, it's rather easy for the GM to declare your character dead.

Your purpose can easily be something that won't get fulfilled until the campaign is over anyway, like destroying the BBEG.

Yes, you can't become one without the GM - that's true of any template, especially one that makes you undead; I was assuming you already had or were reasonably assured of getting the go-ahead there. Ghost is considerably more powerful than most of the others though.

[Glarx]

While I had made this thread mostly just to stare gormlessly at what I see as a gigantic disparity between vampires and liches, I'm slowly morphing it into a thread of questions to help me on my quest.

The particular game in question is about achieving immortality, which is why the ghost didn't factor into my plans. You couldn't have known that since I didn't make it apparent, but again, this was mostly a thread kvetching about the state of undead. I hadn't really researched graveknights when I started the thread. I do rather like them, when all is said and done.

If you have any suggestions for a sorcerer who'll transition into a graveknight, or a summoner (possibly synthetist) who'll transition into graveknight, I'm definitely open to hearing those suggestions. Again, Pathfinder newb. I'm still weighing arcane v. fey bloodlines. :smalleek:

[Erik Vale]

Don't go Synthesist.
If you're wearing your Eidelon [the only way to have it out], you can't be wearing armor [Or you don't get it, I'd have to check], making it rather useless.

Arcane is better because it allows you to choose your own spells, which you can slowly retrain over time as you gain access to new spell levels. Familiars are generally more useful when not in straight up combat situations. Arcane's base spell list I find slightly better, and if you use metamagic, Arcane is much nicer to you.
Fey instead helps with movement and overcoming SR, while assisting you in escaping. SR is the main way where Fey trumps Arcane, unless you wish to nab Sylvan for early access to flight or a bruiser minion.

Since you're already going undead, it may be worth looking into crossblood if you don't plan on using metamagic, and merging another with Arcane. Or look into Seeker.
*Checks*
Deep Earth would be a good one to merge with if you don't plan on using Metamagic [Instead gain Stonecunning/Tremorsense/X-Ray Vision, Earth Glide for up to 20 minutes and DR 10/Adamantine and Immunities you don't normally have].

If this is for 'An Eternity of Evil' [In which case, I'm the GM], Ergon Bloodline is also a good option for mixing [Instead getting All-Round Vision/Increased Darkvision/Trueseeing, SR of 10+Level, Magic Imunity [And Weaknesses] as Wood Golem.].



Of note, there's a wondrous item [I can't remember the name] that goes in your neck slot, you can use it to quickly change out your bloodline [permanently or temporarily], and you can always retrain if those rules are made avaliable.

[Glarx]

The reason I'm considering Synthesist is precisely because of the armor-absorption. The armor only grants some extra HP until your mortal form dies, and by that point the eidolon would be gone, too. Absorbing the armor would remove the ASF, allowing me to benefit from Graveknight without having to suffer the ASF of heavy armor. That was my theory, anyways. I'd still have the various boons of being a Graveknight, in addition to wearing a spirity-thing around like a suit.

Yes, this is for Eternity of Evil. :smalltongue: But it's also to broaden my understanding of Pathfinder.

[meschlum]

Technically, you don't need to wear the Graveknight armor, though the fluff does suggest you should!

[Erik Vale]

Technically, you don't need to wear the Graveknight armor, though the fluff does suggest you should!


This crusade must last long enough for the graveknight to achieve two additional levels of experience, during which he must wear his armor whenever possible.
Yes, yes you do need to wear grave knight armor... At least, until you become a grave knight, at that stage you could pass it around as you want.



Absorbing the armor would remove the ASF, allowing me to benefit from Graveknight without having to suffer the ASF of heavy armor.
*Reading*

While fused, the synthesist loses the benefits of his armor
RAW disagree's with you in a rather sensible way, if the Eidelon goes over your armor, then why would it take away the drawbacks? You're still wearing it.
Unless you consider ASF a benefit of the armor.

As for getting around ASF...
*Juggling*
See if you can convince your GM that a Armored Kilt combined with a Medium Armor can be treated as your Graveknight Armor. Armored Kilt doesn't have any ASF, which means you only have to contend with the ASF of medium armor.

Swift actions in High Op are considered very useful, though you're not going to be there just yet. As such, it would be worth looking at Arcane Armor Training and Arcane Armor Mastery. Assuming you manage the proficiencies [which you'll already have to do if you don't want to tank your attack rolls], that'll drop ASF by 20 for a swift action each round.

While generally considered a bad move, in this case Hellknight Enforcer[/Signifer] (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/hellknight-signifer) might be ok. It will get you the second feat as a bonus one at level 2, and will drop ASF by 5 at level 3 and 8, for a total of -30% reduction.
If you convince your GM [I'm not convinced as yet], then that will get you by most medium armors, and will drop heavy armor to 5-10% ASF. Going for one of the 35% ASF armors means that one in 20 spells will fail, if you are willing to expend your swift action.

Now, since DSP is allowed, this can be dropped a further 10% by adding Fusing to your armor, a +2 armor enchantment. Reading Mithral, heavy armors still count as heavy for proficiency and some other factors [the other factors aren't expanded upon], so an argument could be made for heavy armors still counting as heavy armor for the purposes of Graveknight.

Edit:
I will note that Hellknight also fits flavourfully with the game, and being one would likely help get you a sponsor for grave knight, since you've already had to deal with devils... Oh, and there's the charisma bonus when dealing with them.