Wizards: Do They Know Thier Spells? [3.5]

[Nightraiderx]

So a question about wizards, do the spells they add to their spell list "spells known" and are under the same category as a sorcerer's "spells known" list?

If the wizard's book is destroyed and he makes a new one, would he able to add the spells he knew from class levels into the new book? or does he have to recollect
all the scrolls of the spells he knew in order to recreate it?

Does a wizard using the spontaneous divination alt, know the divination spells as a sorcerer? or does he still have to rely on the spellbook?

Eidiatic wizard alt removes the need for the spellbook, does this ACF grant the wizard a "spells known" list?

[Vhaidara]

If the wizard's book is destroyed and he makes a new one, would he able to add the spells he knew from class levels into the new book?

No


or does he have to recollect all the scrolls of the spells he knew in order to recreate it?

Yes


Does a wizard using the spontaneous divination alt, know the divination spells as a sorcerer? or does he still have to rely on the spellbook?

Unknown (wizard acfs aren't my strong point)


Eidiatic wizard alt removes the need for the spellbook, does this ACF grant the wizard a "spells known" list?

This one, however, I've used, and kind of. Their "spells known" is no different from a regular wizard, ie, there is no limit to it.

[A_S]

In case source is important, from PhB p. 310:

known spell: A spell that an arcane spellcaster has learned and can prepare. For wizards, knowing a spell means having it in their spellbooks.
So, if you no longer have a spellbook, you no longer know the spell.

[Nightraiderx]

In case source is important, from PhB p. 310:

So, if you no longer have a spellbook, you no longer know the spell.

you say that the spells that they have in their spell book is a spell known, by that logic does a character for example a wizard 1/sorcerer 4 using arcane preparation
able to prepare his wizard's spells known into his sorcerer spell slots? could the sorcerer prepare a 2nd lvl wizard spell that the character has written in his spell book?
What would the caster level be for such a spell? would it use intelligence or charisma for it's save?

[Sliver]

you say that the spells that they have in their spell book is a spell known, by that logic does a character for example a wizard 1/sorcerer 4 using arcane preparation
able to prepare his wizard's spells known into his sorcerer spell slots? could the sorcerer prepare a 2nd lvl wizard spell that the character has written in his spell book?
What would the caster level be for such a spell? would it use intelligence or charisma for it's save?

Class features don't stack unless the classes say they do. Your question is no different than having a bard 2/Sorcerer X and asking if you can prepare your bard spells in your sorcerer spell slots. The answer is no.

[unbutu]

you say that the spells that they have in their spell book is a spell known, by that logic does a character for example a wizard 1/sorcerer 4 using arcane preparation
able to prepare his wizard's spells known into his sorcerer spell slots? could the sorcerer prepare a 2nd lvl wizard spell that the character has written in his spell book?
What would the caster level be for such a spell? would it use intelligence or charisma for it's save?

When I see someone trying so hard....

If you want something, just create it. Ask someone somewhere to make a homebrew campaign, and make crazy rules for it. You don't need to spend so much time analysing rules until, by wishfull thinking, they can mean something else.

[Nightraiderx]

It's really because the duskblade has such a limited list and I just can't stand how small it is.
The campaign in question doesn't allow homebrew other than what he allowed.

The only feat combination I can think of to expand the list is using a bloodline feat with the apprentice(mage) feat so that each level can switch out the bloodline
spell for another spell on the duskblade list.

[Telonius]

If the wizard loses his spellbook, he's pretty much out of luck. They're stuck with whatever spells they happen to have prepared already (they can write any of those spells back into a new spellbook (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#replacingandCopyingSpellbooks) at 100gp per page as normal), plus Read Magic (which all Wizards can prepare from memory).

It's possible that Read Magic could be an exception to whether or not a book-less Wizard "knows" any spells, but that's probably "ask your DM" territory.

[Zaq]

I would say that a Wizard "knows" any spells they have mastered with Spell Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#spellMasterySpecial), since they can prepare them from memory, book or no book. It doesn't change the RAW that a Wizard only "knows" what in his or her spellbook, but as a GM (disclaimer: I don't GM 3.5), I'd say Spell Mastery lets you "know" spells.

Interesting wrinkle: The text for Spell Mastery specifies that you pick "spells [. . .] that you already know." So you need to have a spellbook when you take Spell Mastery. Not terribly surprising, but perhaps interesting.

[Flickerdart]

Does a wizard using the spontaneous divination alt, know the divination spells as a sorcerer? or does he still have to rely on the spellbook?
He still needs a spellbook, because errata causes it to only work on spells he already knows, and he can't know spells without a spellbook.

This is why wizards should always tattoo a few handy spells on their butt - nobody will suspect that if their books get stolen, they just need a mirror to regain a modicum of effectiveness.

[Calimehter]

This is why wizards should always tattoo a few handy spells on their butt - nobody will suspect that if their books get stolen, they just need a mirror to regain a modicum of effectiveness.

"Man, how could I have grown so much hair since I had those tattoos done . . ."

[Flickerdart]

"Man, how could I have grown so much hair since I had those tattoos done . . ."
Nothing a piping hot bucket of Brazilian wax can't solve.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wizards learn their spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/arcaneSpells.htm#arcaneMagicalWritings) before they put them into their spellbook, so they would certainly retain some knowledge of a given spell even if their spellbook is lost or destroyed or if they never copied it into their spellbook.

You can fill your spellbook with 1st level spells that take a single page each, even multiple copies of the same 1st level spell, and cast Secret Page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/secretPage.htm) to turn one of those spells into any other spell you've learned. That spell still only takes a single page. It's a good method for replacing a destroyed spellbook if you didn't have a backup, but be sure to take the time to copy all of those into another spellbook so a single targeted dispel magic doesn't ruin your day (but it's easy to keep it out of line of sight/effect anyway).

[ericgrau]

This reminds me of 2e where the fluff was that wizards memorized their spells each day and had them wiped from their mind the moment they cast them. Essentially learning and forgetting how to cast magic over and over again.

[Coidzor]

"Man, how could I have grown so much hair since I had those tattoos done . . ."

And now we see the inherent superiority of Elven Generalist wizards. :smallamused:

[Telok]

It's really because the duskblade has such a limited list and I just can't stand how small it is.
The campaign in question doesn't allow homebrew other than what he allowed.

Oh, man. Ur-Priest, Ur-Priest all the way. Your only issue is getting six ranks of Bluff and you can get that with the Apprentice feat from PH2. 9th level cleric spells in 10 levels and juicy turn attempts. This rocks because you can channel any touch spell you know through your blade. Any touch spell you know.

Alignment: Any evil
Skills: Bluff 6 ranks , Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks , Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks , Knowledge (the planes) 5 ranks , Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Iron Will , Spell Focus (evil)
Base Save Bonus: Fort +3, Will +3.
Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells. If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken. The character must be trained by another ur-priest.

[Calimehter]

Nothing a piping hot bucket of Brazilian wax can't solve.

While this is technically (and painfully) true . . . where are you going to hide a piping hot bucket of wax if you've already been stripped down to the point where you've lost your spellbook?

:smalleek:

[Nightraiderx]

Oh, man. Ur-Priest, Ur-Priest all the way. Your only issue is getting six ranks of Bluff and you can get that with the Apprentice feat from PH2. 9th level cleric spells in 10 levels and juicy turn attempts. This rocks because you can channel any touch spell you know through your blade. Any touch spell you know.

Alignment: Any evil
Skills: Bluff 6 ranks , Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks , Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks , Knowledge (the planes) 5 ranks , Spellcraft 8 ranks
Feats: Iron Will , Spell Focus (evil)
Base Save Bonus: Fort +3, Will +3.
Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells. If such spellcasting ability was previously possessed (as with an ex-cleric), that ability is forever forsaken. The character must be trained by another ur-priest.

I'm aware of ur priest, unfortunately at the time I was looking at a lvl 6 so the plan wouldn't work as well.
I also believe that in a level 20 build a duskblade/bard/sublime chord/abjurrant champion would be an interesting fit.

[Flickerdart]

Any touch spell you know.

"An ur-priest has access to any spell on the list and prepares those spells as a cleric..."

Unlike an arcane spellcaster, a cleric does not "know" any spells.

[Nightraiderx]

"An ur-priest has access to any spell on the list and prepares those spells as a cleric..."

Unlike an arcane spellcaster, a cleric does not "know" any spells.

By that same logic wouldn't wizard/duskblades not work under that clause?

[Flickerdart]

By that same logic wouldn't wizard/duskblades not work under that clause?
It would work. A wizard knows the spells in his book, unambiguously, as stated in the glossary.

[Telok]

"An ur-priest has access to any spell on the list and prepares those spells as a cleric..."

Unlike an arcane spellcaster, a cleric does not "know" any spells.

Interesting, I've never thought of it that way. That means that only classes with a "spells known" mechanic and wizards actually know their spells. Everybody else is casting spells that they don't know. It must lead to interesting conversations.

McFighter: "McRogue is dead, do you know Raise Dead?"
McCleric: "Nope. I don't know that spell."
McFighter: "What?! You cast it on me last week!"
McCleric: "Well yeah I can cast it if I have it prepared. But I don't know a Raise Dead spell."
McFighter: "Then how do you know what you're casting or what you've prepared?"
McCleric: "I just like, you know, take it on faith dude."
McFighter: "..."
McCleric: "Don't give me that look. Int is a dump stat for clerics."

[Flickerdart]

McCleric: "Nope. I don't know that spell."

This is correct - but McCleric can pray to his deity for the ability to cast it. A miracle worker doesn't need to know the nits and grits of how the miracle gets done.

[Nightraiderx]

Favored Souls must feel really awkward...

[Flickerdart]

Favored Souls don't even know who their god is, because WotC didn't deem it necessary to give them Knowledge: Religion.

[Nightraiderx]

cleric-zilla: hey favored soul, who's your patron?
favored-soul: idk but he gives me like... nice stuff.
cleric-zilla: how did you know what their favored weapon was?
favored-soul: Like I just bought a whole bunch of weapons and swung them around until one just felt, right you konw?
cleric-zilla: uhhh...

[ranagrande]

The best and easiest way I know of to get more spells at that level would be to go Duskblade 5/Sand Shaper 1.

[Telok]

This is correct - but McCleric can pray to his deity for the ability to cast it. A miracle worker doesn't need to know the nits and grits of how the miracle gets done.

It's better than that. They literally don't know any spells.

Think about it, it's like not knowing math or literature or television. You buy something and someone gives you a bill, you give them a wad of cash and they give some of it back. But other that you don't actually know what happened or how. Or like knowing how to read but never having read a book. You hear people talking about shows or televised events and you've never seen any and you can never see any. You've only heard other people talking about them.

But you can use them. It's like a phone app that just does things, you push the button marked "math", point it at something and it tells you a number. You push the button marked "book", point it at something and it tells you a story. But you don't know what's going on, you don't know what various equations are or do, you don't know what any books are about. All the cleric knows is that he has a button called "prayer" that he presses once a day and then says what he wants to do that day. He says things like "I want to bring someone back from the dead today, and to heal people. Say three little hurts, a medium hurt, and a big hurt." And he get's back a yes or no answer. If he gets a yes then he can do that thing that day.

By rights the cleric spell list isn't available to characters, they don't know any spells or what they do unless they use spellcraft. They just know if they can do what they asked to be able to do that day. When a cleric levels up to 9th he doesn't know that he can cast Raise Dead because he doesn't know that spell. If he asks to be allowed to bring someone back from the dead he's told "Yes, if you have enough diamond dust."

Being able to prepare and cast spells but not to be able to know any spells is weird. Like being able to prepare and serve a cake, but never being able to know what a cake is. Creepy.

[Flickerdart]

Being able to prepare and cast spells but not to be able to know any spells is weird. Like being able to prepare and serve a cake, but never being able to know what a cake is. Creepy.
They know what Raise Dead is. They just don't know Raise Dead.

So if you had an iPhone, the wizard would be the programmer who makes apps. He knows all about the code and will not shut up about it. The sorcerer is a power user - he doesn't know the code, but he has a whole bunch of apps and knows what they're for and how to get the most out of them.

The Cleric says, "Siri, what's the weather today?"

[Telok]

I'm a programmer and I'm not sure that's a good analogy. I'm starting to think the cooking one is better.

The wizard has a book of recipies and follows them, it produces a cake or salad or mixed drink, and then he serves it. A sorcerer or favored soul knows his recipies through training or experimentation and it works out the same way. But a cleric or druid doesn't know any recipies, it's like he's ordering take-out every time. Then the question becomes 'Does the cleric have a menu and does it have everything on it?'

Which they probably do, there's probably something like a standard prayerbook the gives the names, effects, and material components of things they can pray for.

Clerics, druids, spirit shamans, paladins, rangers, adepts, and blackguards don't know any spells. I think everyone else has a spells known mechanic or knows all spells on their list. I'm sure there's a PrC or three somewhere that gives casting from a list without saying that they know the spells.