Barbarian / Warlock

[Kesnit]

My wife has decided she would rather play than run the game she has been DM-ing. Since I was doing her encounter building anyway, I volunteered to take over the DM chair. But that leaves her in need of a PC.

She wants to play an in-your-face Warlock, and is thinking Barbarian/Warlock. Party is at LVL 9.

CN Human Barbarian 1 or 2 / Warlock 7 or 8

Abilities (without magic items)
STR 18
DEX 14
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 8
CHA 16

She will be using Spirit Lion Totem at first level to get pounce. We're debating Barbarian 2 (using Wolf Totem for Improved Trip) or just going straight to Warlock at second level. Thoughts on that?

With respect to race, Human was the best I was able to find. (I read several Warlock Handbooks.) What I didn't find a lot of reference to were templates. Are there any good templates to stick on a screaming, frothing Warlock?

Feats
Power Attack
Extra Rage

Recommendations for other feats?

Invocations
Least: Eldritch Glaive
Least: Baleful Utterance
Least: Spiderwalk
Lesser: Either Fell Flight or Flee the Scene


I would also allow her to take Eldritch Claws, rather than be a Glaivelock. If I did that, obviously Eldritch Claws would be one of her feats. I'd probably replace Eldritch Glaive with either Baleful Utterance or Entropic Warding. Thoughts on which would be better for a primary front-liner?

[Zaq]

I'm not convinced that Barbarian is going to make you better at Eldritch Glaive-ing. Attacking with an Eldritch Glaive isn't a full attack—it's a special full-round action, so I don't think Pounce lets you do it at the end of a charge. Furthermore, it specifies that you only get extra attacks with it if your BAB is high enough, not if you get extra attacks from any other source (like Whirling Frenzy). Finally, it's not at all clear if you can even use Glaive when you're raging, since it's still activating a spell-like ability, which I don't think you can do when you're raging. (It's not like you activate it once and then have a Glaive for 24 hours—you have to activate it every round that you want to use it, by my reading.)

So you don't get Pounce, you can't benefit from Whirling Frenzy, and you can't even use the STR boost from raging. I think that Barbarian is just not going to be a good choice for Eldritch Glaive. (Eldritch Glaive is a tricky bugger. It doesn't play nice with a lot of things you'd think it would play nice with.)

Eldritch Claws might change things, but I've never actually seen the full text of Claws, so I can't say with any certainty whether it would be more effective with Barbarian. But Glaive almost certainly won't do what you want it to do.

[Red Fel]

I would also allow her to take Eldritch Claws, rather than be a Glaivelock. If I did that, obviously Eldritch Claws would be one of her feats. I'd probably replace Eldritch Glaive with either Baleful Utterance or Entropic Warding. Thoughts on which would be better for a primary front-liner?

First off, you wanted to take Spirit Lion Totem, but not Whirling Frenzy? For shame.

If you're allowing Eldritch Claws, you should definitely also go for Beast Strike. Grab IUS, then dive into Beast Strike, and she'll be dealing her Eldritch Blast damage plus twice her unarmed strike damage on every iterative attack, plus her two Eldritch Claw attacks on top of that. To be clear, Eldritch Claws is amazing if you use Beast Strike. Otherwise, like any claw attack, you're limited to the two hits. With Beast Strike, not only is your damage amplified, but you also get iteratives.

[Rebel7284]

Combine Eldrich Claws with beast strike?

[Flickerdart]

Unfortunately, Pounce doesn't do you much good - Eldritch Glaive is a full-round action, not a full attack action. Claws works a lot better in that regard. Don't forget to grab Beast Strike, so your total unarmed damage is Unarmed Damage + Unarmed Damage + Eldritch Blast damage. Double-dipping your unarmed dice increases from stuff like Superior Unarmed Strike and going Large with a Goliath Barbarian can get really nice really fast.

Consider Spirit Bear instead of Spirit Lion - Beast Strike boosts your grapple damage too, so your barbarian/warlock can become an absolutely ferocious grappler. A raging Goliath Barbarian can thus improved grab Medium creatures after hitting them. You can pick up Pounce or free movement later off a whole bunch of things (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement) such as Snow Tiger Berserker feat, while getting Improved Grab is much harder.

[nedz]

Whether Power Attack works with Eldritch Glaive is somewhat contested. In a poll of four handbooks: two said yes, and two no :smallamused:

Of course, you are the DM, so only your opinion matters.

Dipping anything before 6th means that you can't spend your level 6 feat on Extra Invocation — which is an opportunity cost.

What does Barbarian give you ? You might be better with Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue): Skill points, Evasion and some sneak dice which you can often add to your Blast/Glaive/Claws.

I prefer Half-Fey myself — it costs about the same (LA +2) and gives you a lot of SLAs — also Flight.

[j_spencer93]

plus half-fey warlocks are just cool lol.
Eldrtich claws are sweet with beast strike, ask DM if you can add all damage modifier from your unarmed to eldritch claws with beast strike. In our game we allow vile ki strike and vile (the natural one idr name) to add +1 vile to eldritch claws.
Pouncing eldritch claws would prob be a better route then glaive in this instance.

[Kesnit]

Furthermore, it specifies that you only get extra attacks with it if your BAB is high enough, not if you get extra attacks from any other source (like Whirling Frenzy).

I'll ask her, but I think she wants to stick with the regular Rage, not Whirling Frenzy.


Finally, it's not at all clear if you can even use Glaive when you're raging, since it's still activating a spell-like ability, which I don't think you can do when you're raging. (It's not like you activate it once and then have a Glaive for 24 hours—you have to activate it every round that you want to use it, by my reading.)

Huh... That brings up an interesting issue. Glaive doesn't say how long it lasts, but Claws specifically say they last for a round. (Free action to bring them back). That would cause a problem if they could only be used for 1 round of rage...


First off, you wanted to take Spirit Lion Totem, but not Whirling Frenzy? For shame.

To be honest, I forgot about it. :smallredface:


If you're allowing Eldritch Claws, you should definitely also go for Beast Strike. Grab IUS, then dive into Beast Strike, and she'll be dealing her Eldritch Blast damage plus twice her unarmed strike damage on every iterative attack, plus her two Eldritch Claw attacks on top of that. To be clear, Eldritch Claws is amazing if you use Beast Strike. Otherwise, like any claw attack, you're limited to the two hits. With Beast Strike, not only is your damage amplified, but you also get iteratives.

I didn't make it clear in the OP, but I was planning on giving her Beast Strike if we went the route of Claws.


Don't forget to grab Beast Strike, so your total unarmed damage is Unarmed Damage + Unarmed Damage + Eldritch Blast damage. Double-dipping your unarmed dice increases from stuff like Superior Unarmed Strike and going Large with a Goliath Barbarian can get really nice really fast.

She wants to stay Medium, as she's trying to avoid too much LA. Although Improved Grab only works on creatures smaller than you. *thinking* Would the Half-Giant race from XPH work? They are Medium, but are considered Large when it benefits them. Or, isn't there a feat (Powerful Build?) that makes a creature effectively one size larger than they are?


Consider Spirit Bear instead of Spirit Lion - Beast Strike boosts your grapple damage too, so your barbarian/warlock can become an absolutely ferocious grappler.

I mentioned that to her, but she didn't seem too enthused. Then again, she was a little distracted (Facebook). I'll discuss it with her when I have her attention.


Dipping anything before 6th means that you can't spend your level 6 feat on Extra Invocation — which is an opportunity cost.

True, though I'll have to see if there are any feat slots available, given the changes. And there is nothing that says I can't stick the Barbarian levels after 6...


What does Barbarian give you ?

I was aiming for Pounce, actually. Although obviously there are more ways to get it than I knew.


I prefer Half-Fey myself — it costs about the same (LA +2) and gives you a lot of SLAs — also Flight.

I mentioned that to her and she liked it. However, it does put her two levels behind with respect to BAB, saves, etc.


Eldrtich claws are sweet with beast strike, ask DM

I am the DM.


In our game we allow vile ki strike and vile (the natural one idr name) to add +1 vile to eldritch claws.

Vile Natural Strike. :smallsmile:

She's planning to go neutral, so no BoVD or BoED. But I'd let her add extra damage that she had, if she had any.


OK, so after reading the recommendations, it looks like Claws would be a better option than Glaive.

Feats
1 - IUS
1 (Human) - ??
3 - Eldritch Claws
6 - Superior Unarmed Strike
9 (assuming no LA) - Beast Strike


Edit: Since Eldritch Claws are a natural attack, would they benefit from Necklace of Natural Weapons?

[j_spencer93]

You want a really nice build, take grappling blast also and find a way to grapple with attacks (that bear totem might but then you lose pounce). IF you find a way to get both you can do a charging full attack which ends in a grapple that does Eldritch blast damage, had a totemic demonslayer once that was dealing massive damage with a similar build.

Btw monk's tattoo and monk's belt would be helpful items (some say they do not stack by but RAW they do, actually their wording has no conflict whatsoever but its debatable i guess)

[Flickerdart]

She wants to stay Medium, as she's trying to avoid too much LA. Although Improved Grab only works on creatures smaller than you. *thinking* Would the Half-Giant race from XPH work? They are Medium, but are considered Large when it benefits them. Or, isn't there a feat (Powerful Build?) that makes a creature effectively one size larger than they are?
...
I mentioned that to her, but she didn't seem too enthused. Then again, she was a little distracted (Facebook). I'll discuss it with her when I have her attention.
Goliaths and Half-Giants are the two races with the Powerful Build racial ability (not feat). Both are LA+1, but Goliath Barbarians have a special Rage ACF that makes them properly Large when they rage. This is important because RAW Powerful Build only works against Improved Grab defensively (plus it boosts unarmed damage die). Of course, as the DM you can rule that it works.

Grapple is definitely more complex than attacking, so a beginner might not use it a lot, but like I said, you can get her pounce with a feat, and then she'll have both options.

[j_spencer93]

I second goliath, it would be awesome in this build.

[Kesnit]

Goliaths and Half-Giants are the two races with the Powerful Build racial ability (not feat).

My bad.


Both are LA+1, but Goliath Barbarians have a special Rage ACF that makes them properly Large when they rage. This is important because RAW Powerful Build only works against Improved Grab defensively (plus it boosts unarmed damage die). Of course, as the DM you can rule that it works.

She nixed Goliath, since she isn't really interested in grappling.

When I asked her about goliath, she told me to ask if there are any races that give a bonus to STR without a negative to WIS.


Grapple is definitely more complex than attacking, so a beginner might not use it a lot,

She isn't overly thrilled with grappling, so I'd say that's off the table.


but like I said, you can get her pounce with a feat, and then she'll have both options.

I looked at that link, but didn't see anything workable. The Snow Tiger Berserker feat requires rage, which requires her to have a level of BARB anyway. Lion Tribe Warrior would work, but the fluff requirement would be difficult to hand-wave away. (If it was another player, I'd do it without question. But I don't want anyone claiming I'm favoring her.) I can't find Mulhorandi Divine Minion. (The link in the post is a dead link.) Past that, everything is a spell, a feat that she can't qualify for (i.e. Two Weapon Pounce), a racial ability, or related to wild shape.

[Troacctid]

When I asked her about goliath, she told me to ask if there are any races that give a bonus to STR without a negative to WIS.

Half-Orc, +2 Str -2 Int -2 Cha. Also comes in Aquatic, Arctic, Jungle, Scablands, Frostblood, and Water variants with minor changes to the racial abilities.
Wood Elf, +2 Str +2 Dex -2 Con -2 Int.
Earth Dwarf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#earthDwarves), +2 Str +2 Con -2 Dex -2 Cha.
Neanderthal from Frostburn, +2 Str +2 Con -2 Dex -2 Int, also has endure elements, +2 to Spot, Listen, and Survival, and +1 to attack rolls with primitive weapons like spears and clubs.
Darfellan (AKA Orca-people) from Stormwrack, +2 Str -2 Dex, also comes with a bite attack, a swim speed, and echolocation (AKA blindsense while underwater).
Skarn from Magic of Incarnum, +2 Str -2 Dex, also has arm spine attacks and +2 to Intimidate and Climb.

Any of these can be made Dragonborn to trade racial features for an extra +2 Str and -2 Dex while gaining your choice of wings, a breath weapon, or enhanced senses. And these are just races without a level adjustment--if you're willing to add LA, there are of course many more.

[j_spencer93]

skarn have a racial ACF thing with their spines for monks but is not worth it. just figured i would mention that