Using Monsters with Maneuvers

[Thealtruistorc]

So, as a player, I rather like the TOB maneuver system, and like to integrate it into my characters from time to time. As a GM, though, I was wondering how appropriate it is to create monsters with innate initiation abilities. Is it okay to have powerful melee monsters perform maneuvers and use stances, and what about recovery methods? How significantly should the CR be increased for a monster capable of using fairly sophisticated maneuvers?

[CIDE]

So, as a player, I rather like the TOB maneuver system, and like to integrate it into my characters from time to time. As a GM, though, I was wondering how appropriate it is to create monsters with innate initiation abilities. Is it okay to have powerful melee monsters perform maneuvers and use stances, and what about recovery methods? How significantly should the CR be increased for a monster capable of using fairly sophisticated maneuvers?

CR may not need to be adjusted at all if you were simply feat swapping to get the maneuvers. After that CR adjustments are easy if class levels are added or if HD are increased for the purpose of adding said feats. Simply slapping maneuvers onto something though is kind in a big gray area. Probably depends on the specific monster and the specific maneuvers to figure out their usefulness or potential power.

Whether or not it's fair it also depends on your players. Any specifics that can be given?

[PseudoPanda]

There are some monsters in ToB that already have some maneuver use available to them. I'd say use them as a comparison to other monsters of the same CR to figure out how powerful to consider adding maneuvers to monsters is. If you're adding Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade levels to monsters then you should probably just adjust CR like you would by adding any class to any monster.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Didn't the Libram of Battle here on the boards have a playgrounder's take on the cut monsters that were supposed to be in Tome of Battle?

Other than that and the maneuver-giving feats, taking low CR/HD monster and slapping on warrior/ToB class levels is about all you can do.

[Urpriest]

If you're homebrewing a new monster and giving it maneuvers, I'd look to the monsters in ToB for inspiration. If you're modifying an existing monster, just mess around with the feats or give it class levels or the like, something there's already rules for.

[WhamBamSam]

There was an article (http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/3591556) from Stormwind and Co on this very subject, though it's mostly concerned with Martial Study/Stance feats and potentially adding initiator class levels, sticking to established RAW. A few maneuvers from feats is usually enough to serve whatever nefarious purpose you're going for. Lots of monsters have decent initiator level for their CR, due to all those HD they use to keep alive.

A few maneuvers do get a little more powerful on the monster side, because monsters tend to have the potential for higher attack rolls, skill checks, ability checks, and such, but you're still struggling against the action economy, so whatever. At very high levels, Tornado Throw gets a little crazy at dragon fly speeds, but that only applies at very high levels.

[Rakoa]

Just take off their Toughness or Alertness feats or whatever and slap on some Martial Study. Bam! No CR adjustment needed!

[afroakuma]

When I was sketching out my redraw of modrons, I made the drones all natural martial initiators. We had fun with them :smallwink:

[Eldan]

Timely, by the way. I just started a thread over in Homebrew called The Martial Monster Project, about giving maneuvers to monsters.

Edit: Modrons, really? They actually strike me as one of the less martial planar races.

[afroakuma]

Modrons, really? They actually strike me as one of the less martial planar races.

The powers really fit the flavor, is the thing. For instance, Monodrones only know one stance: Stance of Clarity, which of course is excellent for single-minded creatures who can only take on one assignment at a time. Steel Wind, Wall of Blades, Punishing Strike... etc. and things that help them function in numbers and reinforce the hierarchical arrangement of modron forces.

[Eldan]

True, I can see that.

[Coidzor]

When I was sketching out my redraw of modrons, I made the drones all natural martial initiators. We had fun with them :smallwink:

I took one look at this and I had to go "oooo~" :smallbiggrin:

[Telok]

One thing I'd note is that the maneuvers are set up in a way similar to spells. Levels on to nine, available at the same IL as spells are at CL, and increasing power in a similar manner. Maneuvers are weaker than spells but usable every encounter for PCs. So what I've done is take creatures with innate spellcasting (Areana to be precise) and swapped that out for maneuvers (Desert Wind I think) on a maneuver per spell basis.

The critters were a bit less dangerous and sometimes needed a stat swap to move tham from caster to melee but it worked pretty well.

[afroakuma]

Oh that was the other thing I did; I gave a fire elemental swordsage levels for Desert Wind maneuvers. :smallbiggrin: