Increasing Spiked Chain's Trip Range

[Red Rubber Band]

I've a friend who is playing a ranged trip fighter in an upcoming campaign. Is there anyway to increase the ranged trip from spiked chain? I am not aware of any and so was contemplating creating an enchantment for him to add to his weapon - a +1 enchantment that adds 5ft to the spiked chain's range.

What do you guys think of this? Or, is there another way to go about it?
The spiked chain is being reskinned into something else, but the mechanics will stay the same. The reach and ability to threaten adjacent squares is a must have.

[OldTrees1]

Increase your natural reach since a spiked chain has twice your natural reach.
1) Become Large sized (expansion, enlarge person, mountain rage, ...)
2) Aberrant Blood + Inhuman Reach feats
3) Willing Deformity + Deformity Tall feats
4) Your homebrewed +1 weapon ability

[Forrestfire]

Dragon #319 has the Rope Dart and Meteor Hammer, which are 1d4/x2, two-handed exotic weapons with 15-foot reach. Might that help?

[j_spencer93]

could unless he wants master of chains or Omatu master PRCs (actually that second one doesn't really need a spiked chain and kinda sucks)

[Red Rubber Band]

Increase your natural reach since a spiked chain has twice your natural reach.
1) Become Large sized (expansion, enlarge person, mountain rage, ...)
2) Aberrant Blood + Inhuman Reach feats
3) Willing Deformity + Deformity Tall feats
4) Your homebrewed +1 weapon ability

Where does it say that spike chain has twice your natural reach? The table shows it as having 10ft reach that can threaten squares adjacent to you.
I'm trying to increase the range of the spiked chain itself, not the character wielding it. But thank you for those. I'll bring them up with the player.


Dragon #319 has the Rope Dart and Meteor Hammer, which are 1d4/x2, two-handed exotic weapons with 15-foot reach. Might that help?

Interesting. Do they threaten adjacent squares?

[Deophaun]

Where does it say that spike chain has twice your natural reach?
It says that right here:

Reach Weapons

Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

[Flickerdart]

Where does it say that spike chain has twice your natural reach? The table shows it as having 10ft reach that can threaten squares adjacent to you.
Spiked Chain is a bog standard reach weapon. A lot of the game assumes that the PCs are medium, but what a reach weapon actually does is double your reach. A bipedal Large creature has 10ft reach, so it gets 20ft reach with the chain.

[Red Rubber Band]

It says that right here:


Spiked Chain is a bog standard reach weapon. A lot of the game assumes that the PCs are medium, but what a reach weapon actually does is double your reach. A bipedal Large creature has 10ft reach, so it gets 20ft reach with the chain.

Ohhhhhhh...

Ok, so him taking those feats we can fluff as extending the length of the chain.
Except they extend his reach with any weapon. Well, really, they extend his reach in general.

Nevertheless I shall take this information to him. Thanks!

[Flickerdart]

Ohhhhhhh...

Ok, so him taking those feats we can fluff as extending the length of the chain.
Except they extend his reach with any weapon. Well, really, they extend his reach in general.

Nevertheless I shall take this information to him. Thanks!
Kind of! Mechanically, it doesn't matter what the size of a weapon is, as long as it has reach (or not). You could wield a Gargantuan hammer and still only have 5ft reach if you were Medium.

[j_spencer93]

ya no matter if the hammer is actually like 3 times your size, as a medium character you can only swing that hammer 5ft...figure that out.
a 12ft hammer, your 5ft reach yet you can only swing it literally you reach lol thats looking at it realistically.

[Forrestfire]

Interesting. Do they threaten adjacent squares?

Yeah. It triples your natural reach, and can strike anything within the area. Makes for some very fun times in trip builds.


ya no matter if the hammer is actually like 3 times your size, as a medium character you can only swing that hammer 5ft...figure that out.
a 12ft hammer, your 5ft reach yet you can only swing it literally you reach lol thats looking at it realistically.

"Reach" is a bit of a misnomer. What it means is "this is the character's effective combat range." If a medium-sized character is holding a 12-foot-tall hammer, they still have 5ft reach because they cannot effectively strike with it at full range. In all likeliness, something like a giant's warhammer wouldn't even be usable as a polearm, because the haft would be too wide to use as one.

[OldTrees1]

Ohhhhhhh...

Ok, so him taking those feats we can fluff as extending the length of the chain.
Except they extend his reach with any weapon. Well, really, they extend his reach in general.

Nevertheless I shall take this information to him. Thanks!

Yep. Remember if the feat adds +5ft to his reach, you would fluff it as adding +10ft of reach to his chain.

[j_spencer93]

Yeah. It triples your natural reach, and can strike anything within the area. Makes for some very fun times in trip builds.



"Reach" is a bit of a misnomer. What it means is "this is the character's effective combat range." If a medium-sized character is holding a 12-foot-tall hammer, they still have 5ft reach because they cannot effectively strike with it at full range. In all likeliness, something like a giant's warhammer wouldn't even be usable as a polearm, because the haft would be too wide to use as one.

i understand what it actually is, but the word causes alot of confusion with players. Especially with one of mine. :smallfrown:

[Flickerdart]

In all likeliness, something like a giant's warhammer wouldn't even be usable as a polearm, because the haft would be too wide to use as one.
Normally, there is no way for a character to use a weapon bigger than one size larger than himself. The reason I mention a Gargantuan hammer is that the Titan bloodline gives you the ability to wield those specifically, regardless of your size.

[j_spencer93]

flickerdart- ya still makes little sense no matter what you use, but your example was far better

[Red Rubber Band]

Thank you all for your help :smallbiggrin:

[Andezzar]

Kind of! Mechanically, it doesn't matter what the size of a weapon is, as long as it has reach (or not). You could wield a Gargantuan hammer and still only have 5ft reach if you were Medium.Even if the hammer were light weapon, a medium creature cannot wield it. An oversized weapon requires more effort to be wielded and thus is treated as a different kind of weapon. Light weapons become one-handed weapons if they are one category too large, or two-handed weapons if they are appropriately sized for a creature two sizes larger than the wielder and so on. A weapon that requires more effort than a two-handed weapon cannot be wielded at all.

[j_spencer93]

Even if the hammer were light weapon, a medium creature cannot wield it. An oversized weapon requires more effort to be wielded and thus is treated as a different kind of weapon. Light weapons become one-handed weapons if they are one category too large, or two-handed weapons if they are appropriately sized for a creature two sizes larger than the wielder and so on. A weapon that requires more effort than a two-handed weapon cannot be wielded at all.

either your being way to technical or you missed the point:smallconfused:

[OldTrees1]

Even if the hammer were light weapon, a medium creature cannot wield it. An oversized weapon requires more effort to be wielded and thus is treated as a different kind of weapon. Light weapons become one-handed weapons if they are one category too large, or two-handed weapons if they are appropriately sized for a creature two sizes larger than the wielder and so on. A weapon that requires more effort than a two-handed weapon cannot be wielded at all.

Sounds like 3.0. They separated weapon size and weapon handedness in 3.5. However that is not important since the point of that post was that Reach is exclusive to the Reach trait and not to the weapon size.

[ILM]

Quick question: you're a medium character with standard 5 ft reach. You wield a reach weapon, which means you threaten at 10 ft but not adjacent creatures. Now, increase your size: suddenly you threaten at 20 ft (and presumably at 15 ft too). You still don't threaten adjacent creatures. Do you threaten creatures that are exactly 1 square away? (i.e. between 5 and 10 ft away from your square)

[Coidzor]

Quick question: you're a medium character with standard 5 ft reach. You wield a reach weapon, which means you threaten at 10 ft but not adjacent creatures. Now, increase your size: suddenly you threaten at 20 ft (and presumably at 15 ft too). You still don't threaten adjacent creatures. Do you threaten creatures that are exactly 1 square away? (i.e. between 5 and 10 ft away from your square)

You don't threaten at 10 feet or 5 feet if you're a Large, bipedal/tall creature wielding a standard reach weapon. You do, however, threaten at 15 feet and 20 feet.

So 1 square away = no, 2 squares away = no, 3 squares away = yes, 4 squares away = also yes, 5 squares away and further = nope, gotta get huge first.

[ILM]

Thanks, and sorry for the small hijack :smallsmile:.

[Coidzor]

Also, as an aside, this thread gave me the idea of having spiked chains and rope darts/meteor hammers have a thing going on where either they threaten an additional 5' but it's only tripping/disarming, or the last 5' of their reach is only tripping/disarming, rather than being able to utilize the full range of attack options. Maybe add feinting to tripping and disarming.

Currently just ruminating on that.

[Andezzar]

Sounds like 3.0. They separated weapon size and weapon handedness in 3.5. However that is not important since the point of that post was that Reach is exclusive to the Reach trait and not to the weapon size.the point was that a medium character cannot wield any gargantuan weapon, or using the 3.5 terms, he cannot wield a weapon appropriately sized for a gargantuan creature.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

[Deophaun]

the point was that a medium character cannot wield any gargantuan weapon, or using the 3.5 terms, he cannot wield a weapon appropriately sized for a gargantuan creature.
Actually, the point is that, even if you cast enlarge weapon on a medium +1 Sizing hammer, and then used the sizing property to turn it gargantuan, it still wouldn't have reach for the medium creature now wielding a gargantuan weapon (though, why you'd stop at gargantuan and not go to colossal, I don't know)

[Flickerdart]

Even if the hammer were light weapon, a medium creature cannot wield it. An oversized weapon requires more effort to be wielded and thus is treated as a different kind of weapon. Light weapons become one-handed weapons if they are one category too large, or two-handed weapons if they are appropriately sized for a creature two sizes larger than the wielder and so on. A weapon that requires more effort than a two-handed weapon cannot be wielded at all.
Titan bloodline, yo. Already mentioned it.

[Andezzar]

Titan bloodline, yo. Already mentioned it.In that case it only works with a gargantuan warhammer and does not need the enlarge weapon/sizing weapon trick. Any gargantuan warhammer will do, even if the wielder is a pixie with titan blood.

[Flickerdart]

In that case it only works with a gargantuan warhammer and does not need the enlarge weapon/sizing weapon trick. Any gargantuan warhammer will do, even if the wielder is a pixie with titan blood.
I didn't say anything about sizing. The reference to medium creatures was to illustrate the effect that big weapons have on reach (none whatsoever).

[j_spencer93]

Think some people missed the point or are not understand that everyone is saying the same thing. Size of weapon doesn't affect your reach with weapon. gargantuan hammer or whatever can only be swung 5ft.

[Psyren]

"Reach" is a bit of a misnomer. What it means is "this is the character's effective combat range." If a medium-sized character is holding a 12-foot-tall hammer, they still have 5ft reach because they cannot effectively strike with it at full range. In all likeliness, something like a giant's warhammer wouldn't even be usable as a polearm, because the haft would be too wide to use as one.

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