Rogue Archetype: Vindicator (4E Brawny Rogue)

[Ghost Dragon]

This is now called the BRUTAL SCOUNDREL, ignore the above name. Loved playing a brawny rogue in 4e, hated the name though lol so have named this the Vindicator (Suggest other names if you got better ones). Check it out, usual story in terms of being a draft, so gimmie feedback on balance and fluff. Hope ya'll enjoy it.

Brutal Scoundrel: You are a warrior first, and unlike an assassin, you don’t go out of your way to hide from your enemies, on the contrary, looking into their eyes and seeing fear is part of how you work. Your quarry’s are those who are chased, wanted or have information you require. You tally not with those who disobey the tenants you stand for, whether they are the laws of a city, the precepts of a church, or the dictates of a crime lord. Those who adhere to this archetype are diverse: hired bodyguards, soldiers, spies, vigilantes, thugs, and even specially anointed priests trained to exterminate or capture the enemies of their deity. In general, you want your enemies to see you coming. You want them to tremble with fear as you close in for the kill. Your weapons are mightier than any pen, and you aren’t brought in to negotiate with your quarry, only to extract information or rectify their wrong doing with a swift death. You are, for the most part, an adventurer who is periodically asked to complete tasks that requires your brand of ruthlessness.

3rd level Street Wise: Starting at 3rd-level, you can use your Strength modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for any Intimidation checks you make. You gain proficiency with medium armour, and your choice of proficiency with two of the following weapons: Battleaxe, Flail, Morningstar, Scimitar, War Pick or Warhammer. You can treat both of those weapons, as well as the Longsword, as if they had the Finesse property while using them in one hand, and you also treat all simple weapons as if they had the Finesse property.

3rd level Ruthlessness: Whenever you deliver your Sneak Attack, you can add your Strength modifier as a bonus to that damage. You also favour a particular style in combat. Choose one of the following options:

Heavy Handed: When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and are wielding no other weapons, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet.

Intimidator: If you are holding a weapon, you can use a bonus action to intimidate a creature that can hear and see you within 30 feet. The creature must make a Wisdom saving throw (8 + your Strength modifier + your proficiency bonus). If the creature fails, it has disadvantage on attack rolls for one round.

Resilience: When you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points or fewer, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier + your rogue level (minimum 1).

Second Strike: When you wish to engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.

Skull Crusher: When you roll a 1 on a Sneak Attack damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll.

9th level Resolve: Starting at 9th-level, you gain resistance to damage from opportunity attacks, and if an enemy makes an opportunity attack against you, you gain advantage against that enemy until the end of your next turn.

13th level Interrogator: Starting at 13th-level, you can force a creature to tell you the truth. You use your action to interrogate a creature who can see, hear and understand you. It must make a Charisma saving throw (DC 8 + your Strength modifier + your proficiency bonus). On a failed save, a creature can’t speak a deliberate lie until the end of your next turn. On subsequent turns, you can use your action to extend the duration of this effect on the creature until the end of your next turn. You know whether the creature succeeds or fails on its saving throw. An affected creature is aware of this effect and can thus avoid answering questions to which it would normally respond with a lie. Such a creature can be evasive in its answers as long as it remains within the boundaries of the truth. This effect ends if the creature ends its turn out of line of sight or more than 60 feet away from you. If the creature succeeds on its saving throw, you can't use this feature on that creature again for 24 hours.

17th level Brutal Strike:Starting at 17th level, you become adept at placing your strikes so they cause horrific pain. When you attack and hit a creature, it must make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your Strength modifier + your proficiency bonus). On a failed save, the creature is paralysed until the end of your next turn. Once you use this feature, you must complete a short rest or a long rest before you can use it again.

[Amnoriath]

1. This is too focused on dealing damage and inflicting conditions that it almost loses the interest of being a rogue. Every other Rogue subclass has some kind of utility.
2. If you are going to spam conditions like that it shouldn't include incapacitation and disadvantage on 2 saves as well advantage for everyone including your next sneak attack. Frightened in comparison just looks silly because they can choose to loose sight of you and not be frightened.
3. Your capstone is too similar to the Assassin's.

[Ghost Dragon]

1. This is too focused on dealing damage and inflicting conditions that it almost loses the interest of being a rogue. Every other Rogue subclass has some kind of utility.
2. If you are going to spam conditions like that it shouldn't include incapacitation and disadvantage on 2 saves as well advantage for everyone including your next sneak attack. Frightened in comparison just looks silly because they can choose to loose sight of you and not be frightened.
3. Your capstone is too similar to the Assassin's.

Thanks for the feedback, in terms of damage I was going for lots as the brawny rogue I used in 4e murdered stuff, but if ya think it's too much got any suggestions on utility to flavour it more? I used the monk open hand as a base for 13 but I'll look over it again if it seems OP. I liked the feel of the capstone but I realise it is similar, again any suggestions on that? Cheers :)

[Submortimer]

[spoiler]Vindicator (Brawny Rogue): You are a warrior first, and unlike an assassin, you don’t go out of your way to hide from your enemies unless the mission at hand requires stealth or subterfuge. Those who adhere to this archetype are diverse: hired bodyguards, soldiers, spies, vigilantes, and even specially anointed priests trained to exterminate the enemies of their deity. In general, you want your enemies to see you coming. You want them to tremble with fear as you close in for the kill. That said, you don’t want to plunge headlong into combat without first observing your foes and analysing the tactical situation. Wise vindicator’s strike when doing so is most advantageous to them, not when their enemies clearly have a tactical edge. Your weapons are mightier than any pen, and you aren’t brought in to negotiate with your quarry. You are, for the most part, an adventurer who is periodically asked to complete tasks that requires your brand of ruthlessness and stealth.

3rd level Martial Training: When you reach 3rd level, you gain proficiency with medium armor, shields, and any one martial weapon that does not have the Heavy, Two-Handed or Reach properties. You can now wield this weapon as if it had the Finesse property. You may choose longsword as this weapon although you already have proficiency with it, allowing it to be used as a Finesse weapon if you wish.

Love it. Neat ability, and I like anything that lets me add more stuff to the finesse list.


3rd level Fighting Style: You adopt a particular style of fighting as your specialty. Choose one of the following options. You can’t take a Fighting Style option more than once, even if you later get to choose again.

Defence: While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.

Duelling: When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.

Two-Weapon Fighting: When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.

Good stuff. you could reasonably add the Archery style as an option and it would still fit the flavor.


9th level Extra Attack: Starting at 9th-level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

Powerful, but it fits the theme.


13th level Brutal Strike: Starting at 14th-level, you can add your Strength modifier to your Sneak Attack damage. In addition, whenever you hit a creature and deal Sneak Attack damage, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:

1.It must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be incapacitated for 1 round.
2.It must make a Strength saving throw. If it fails, the creature has disadvantage on Strength and Dexterity saving throws and attack rolls against the creature have advantage until the end of your next turn.
3.It must make a Wisdom saving throw or be frightened of you until the end of your next turn.

Is adding your strength modifier in addition to or in place of your dex bonus? If it's in place of, it makes no sense. The way he's set up, having a high strength is in no way more or as beneficial as having a high dex. If this is the route you want it to go, the first part of this ability should come at a much earlier level.


17th level Devastating Strike: Starting at 17th level, you become adept at placing your strikes so they cause horrific pain. Whenever you use the attack action and hit a creature, but before you roll damage, it must make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your Dexterity modifier + your proficiency bonus). On a failed save, the creature is paralysed until the end of your next turn. You then roll damage, treating the hit as if the creature was paralysed. You can use this feature a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. When you finish a long rest, you regain all expended uses.

See my above statement. the ability is nice, but basing anything on this guy off of strength, as he's currently set up, is a bad idea.

[Amnoriath]

Thanks for the feedback, in terms of damage I was going for lots as the brawny rogue I used in 4e murdered stuff, but if ya think it's too much got any suggestions on utility to flavour it more? I used the monk open hand as a base for 13 but I'll look over it again if it seems OP. I liked the feel of the capstone but I realise it is similar, again any suggestions on that? Cheers :)

Well, what is the character concept behind the Vindicator? I know mechanically it is suppose to bring strength but what is this suppose to bring what a Fighter/Rogue or Barbarian/Rogue doesn't? If I were to do it I would make it more survivable and better at general physical checks as well as some kind of general intimidation.

[Jakodee]

I have always imagined the brawny rouge as a stereotypical cockney gangster, complete with lots of "Oi! You're in the wrong fricken part'a town!" As he aproches with a club like object. It's taking away the idea that a rogue is anything but a thug/warrior who is real good at bashing the enemy from the shadows.

[Ghost Dragon]

Love it. Neat ability, and I like anything that lets me add more stuff to the finesse list.



Good stuff. you could reasonably add the Archery style as an option and it would still fit the flavor.



Powerful, but it fits the theme.



Is adding your strength modifier in addition to or in place of your dex bonus? If it's in place of, it makes no sense. The way he's set up, having a high strength is in no way more or as beneficial as having a high dex. If this is the route you want it to go, the first part of this ability should come at a much earlier level.



See my above statement. the ability is nice, but basing anything on this guy off of strength, as he's currently set up, is a bad idea.

So I wanted Strength to be this build's secondary stat, like Intelligence is for the Arcane Trickster (all its spell ability DC's are based of Intelligence). I see what you mean though re Strength entering late so I have reworked all levels, but tried to keep the same flavour and feel, but focusing more on Strenght for utility as well as damage, and Intimidation as a theme (thanks Amnoriath for your input on character concept). What do ya think of it now?

[Ghost Dragon]

Well, what is the character concept behind the Vindicator? I know mechanically it is suppose to bring strength but what is this suppose to bring what a Fighter/Rogue or Barbarian/Rogue doesn't? If I were to do it I would make it more survivable and better at general physical checks as well as some kind of general intimidation.

Yeh good call on the concept, that's what I needed feedback on. I've tried to focus the feel and give utility here and there while still keeping it combat focused. pulled away from using fighter option and did away with the imposing option completely for something I think suits it more (some survivability there). Let me know what you think now. Thanks again.

[Ghost Dragon]

So I want to offer this option to one of my players in an up coming game and just wanted to get someone to ok this build before I do. Please check it out at the top and let me know. Thanks all

[chando]

First of all, its a great concept, and overal it looks greats, I just have a few nitpicks on the power level.

Brutal Strike
Make it so "Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long or short rest" instead of 1+Str times per day. Its already a essentially save/die ability, since you you land it you have your whole other turn to hit two or three times the target, all of which are critical hits, plus any additional attacks leftover from the round you landed [say you hit this with with the first attack, then you have your extra attack plus maybe a bonus attack if two weapon figthing/hand-crossbowing]. You will add your sneak attack to two of those critical, so you are looking at 40d6 extra damage. And that's not counting on any party members attacking the guy between those rounds. Once/short rest seems enough, as it does't allow you to spam it on the boss for example.

Resolve seems great and balanced.

Ruthlessness
I think the third level ability gives away too much in terms of combat abilities. Leave the Strength to sneak attack damage as that's comparable to what a Hunter ranger gets at this level, and scrap the rest. Give it proficiency in Intimidation, expertise IF already proficient
If you wish to keep the styles, scrap the Strenght damage to SA. Although you will have to rewrite them:
Fear tactics has no reason to exist if you keep side-step, as the other its just plain better.
Side step seems just too good, and seems out of place in the brawny rogue,
Heavy handed takes one of the best parts of the Shieldmaster feat and gives it away for free. You already have prociciency with shields, you can take the feat next level for an similar ability [and crazy high Dex saves]. Its a nice ability, but it steals the thunder from the feat.
Second strike: If anyone really wants this, a single level dip in fighter or two levels in ranger its ok, no need to make an ability.

Reviewing these, I would only keep fear tactics, and only if scraping the Strengh to SA damage and not giving proficiency/expertise in intimidation. But I think fear tactics could be improved to the frightened condition.


[B]Extra-attack
This ability its great. So great, that I would consider going into 5 levels in any of the other classes that get it just to get it. In fact, my next character is shaping up to be an Assassin/Barbarian. You are giving away at level 13.
Now: While you are focusing much more in combat with you abilities than the other rogue options, I do think this ability compliments the archetype nicely, and at the level given, its not likely to cause many problems. In fact I have taken this ability in consideration when reviewing Brutal Strike, and think its ok.
If you wore to replace, you could add the one the gets scraped from fear tactics/Strenght damage to SA here, and give you advantage against frightened targets.


just my couple cents :D

PS: I'm stealing this for my own campaign, mostly with the changes I suggested, just so you know :P

[Submortimer]

Loved playing a brawny rogue in 4e, hated the name though lol so have named this the Vindicator (Suggest other names if you got better ones). Check it out, usual story in terms of being a draft, so gimmie feedback on balance and fluff. Hope ya'll enjoy it.

Vindicator: You are a warrior first, and unlike an assassin, you don’t go out of your way to hide from your enemies, on the contrary, looking into their eyes and seeing fear is part of how you work. Your quarry’s are those who are chased, wanted or have information you require. You tally not with those who disobey the tenants you stand for, whether they are the laws of a city, the precepts of a church, or the dictates of a crime lord. Those who adhere to this archetype are diverse: hired bodyguards, soldiers, spies, vigilantes, thugs, and even specially anointed priests trained to exterminate or capture the enemies of their deity. In general, you want your enemies to see you coming. You want them to tremble with fear as you close in for the kill. Your weapons are mightier than any pen, and you aren’t brought in to negotiate with your quarry, only to extract information or rectify their wrong doing with a swift death. You are, for the most part, an adventurer who is periodically asked to complete tasks that requires your brand of ruthlessness.

3rd level Street Wise: Starting at 3rd-level, you can use your Strength modifier in place of your Charisma modifier for any Intimidation checks you make, and you also gain proficiency with medium armor and any one martial weapon that does not have the Heavy, Two-Handed or Reach properties. You can now wield this weapon as if it had the Finesse property. You may choose longsword as this weapon although you already have proficiency with it, allowing it to be used as Finesse weapon if you wish.

3rd level Ruthlessness: Whenever you deliver your Sneak Attack, you can add your strength modifier as a bonus to that damage. You also favour a particular type of combat tactics. Choose one of the following options:

Fear Tactics: If you are holding a weapon, you can use your Cunning action to strike fear into a creature that can hear and see you within 30 feet. The creature must make a Wisdom saving throw (8 + your Strength modifier + your proficiency bonus). If the creature fails, it has disadvantage on attack rolls against you for one round.

Side Step: You can use your Cunning action to take the dodge action.

Heavy Handed: When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand that does not have the light property and are wielding no other weapons, you can use your Cunning action to perform a Shove against a creature that you have hit with that weapon during the last round.

Second Strike: When you wish to engage in two-weapon fighting, you can use your Cunning action to strike with your second weapon and add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack. This ability does not stack with the two weapon fighting style from any other class.

9th level Resolve: Starting at 9th-level, you have advantage on any Intimidation (Strength) and Athletics (Strength) checks you make. Additionally, you gain resistance to damage from opportunity attacks, and if an enemy makes an opportunity attack against you, you gain advantage against that enemy until the end of your next turn.

13th level Extra Attack: Starting at 13th-level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.

17th level Brutal Strike:Starting at 17th level, you become adept at placing your strikes so they cause horrific pain. When you attack and hit a creature, it must make a Constitution saving throw (DC 8 + your Strength modifier + your proficiency bonus). On a failed save, the creature is paralysed until the end of your next turn. You can use this feature a number of times per day equal to 1 + your Strength modifier. When you finish a long rest, you regain all expended uses.


This works MUCH better than before. I'd actually play this guy :smallsmile:

[Ghost Dragon]

First of all, its a great concept, and overal it looks greats, I just have a few nitpicks on the power level.

Brutal Strike
Make it so "Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long or short rest" instead of 1+Str times per day. Its already a essentially save/die ability, since you you land it you have your whole other turn to hit two or three times the target, all of which are critical hits, plus any additional attacks leftover from the round you landed [say you hit this with with the first attack, then you have your extra attack plus maybe a bonus attack if two weapon figthing/hand-crossbowing]. You will add your sneak attack to two of those critical, so you are looking at 40d6 extra damage. And that's not counting on any party members attacking the guy between those rounds. Once/short rest seems enough, as it does't allow you to spam it on the boss for example.

Yup I like the whole once a short rest to prevent spam on the boss, though with sneak attack you can only add once as RAW it's only once per round.


Resolve seems great and balanced.

Glad you like it.


Ruthlessness
I think the third level ability gives away too much in terms of combat abilities. Leave the Strength to sneak attack damage as that's comparable to what a Hunter ranger gets at this level, and scrap the rest. Give it proficiency in Intimidation, expertise IF already proficient
If you wish to keep the styles, scrap the Strenght damage to SA. Although you will have to rewrite them:
Fear tactics has no reason to exist if you keep side-step, as the other its just plain better.
Side step seems just too good, and seems out of place in the brawny rogue,
Heavy handed takes one of the best parts of the Shieldmaster feat and gives it away for free. You already have prociciency with shields, you can take the feat next level for an similar ability [and crazy high Dex saves]. Its a nice ability, but it steals the thunder from the feat.
Second strike: If anyone really wants this, a single level dip in fighter or two levels in ranger its ok, no need to make an ability.

Reviewing these, I would only keep fear tactics, and only if scraping the Strengh to SA damage and not giving proficiency/expertise in intimidation. But I think fear tactics could be improved to the frightened condition.

I hear what you're saying about side step not fitting in with the fluff and I agree as well as being to OP, also heavy handed being like shield master, however I really want to have a 'Style' in there for variation on what background the rogue has come from, plus I wanted to make a rogue build that you could get two weapon fighting in without multiclassing as thats always been one of my favourite rogue builds. Maybe drop side step, keep fear tactics as is and change heavy handed to 'knock down' which requires a normal athletics vs athletics or acrobatics check so it's not guaranteed?
I might of already done some rewriting as there is no shield or athletics proficiency, just advantage at 9th level.


[B]Extra-attack
This ability its great. So great, that I would consider going into 5 levels in any of the other classes that get it just to get it. In fact, my next character is shaping up to be an Assassin/Barbarian. You are giving away at level 13.
Now: While you are focusing much more in combat with you abilities than the other rogue options, I do think this ability compliments the archetype nicely, and at the level given, its not likely to cause many problems. In fact I have taken this ability in consideration when reviewing Brutal Strike, and think its ok.
If you wore to replace, you could add the one the gets scraped from fear tactics/Strenght damage to SA here, and give you advantage against frightened targets.


just my couple cents :D

PS: I'm stealing this for my own campaign, mostly with the changes I suggested, just so you know :P

Glad you got something to use in your campaign, let me know if it works well for ya :)

[Ghost Dragon]

This works MUCH better than before. I'd actually play this guy :smallsmile:

Glad you like it! Gonna tweak it slightly but pretty happy with it ;)

[chando]

Yup I like the whole once a short rest to prevent spam on the boss, though with sneak attack you can only add once as RAW it's only once per round.
Happy to help.

Also, I did add the SA damage only once/round. Round 1: attack once, brutal strike on that attack. Seccond attack vs incapacited target auto-critical, 10d6 SA x 2 for critical 20d6. Round 2: attack target auto crit for +20d6 SA dmg in one of the attacks :P



I hear what you're saying about side step not fitting in with the fluff and I agree as well as being to OP, also heavy handed being like shield master, however I really want to have a 'Style' in there for variation on what background the rogue has come from, plus I wanted to make a rogue build that you could get two weapon fighting in without multiclassing as thats always been one of my favourite rogue builds. Maybe drop side step, keep fear tactics as is and change heavy handed to 'knock down' which requires a normal athletics vs athletics or acrobatics check so it's not guaranteed?
I might of already done some rewriting as there is no shield or athletics proficiency, just advantage at 9th level.

Could swear i saw shield proficiency, maybe i was thinking of my character :p the athletics bit was a suggestion not to give it free prof.
I liked the name heavy handed better. I also assumed it had a regular athletics check before, so glad you put one in there. Since you did put the check in, and they get no shield prof, would be simpler just let them shove as a bonus action, which can be used either to knockdown or push, and it would be ok.
Getting both the styles AND str to SA is still too much, and you get new proficiencys and get to SA with better weapons on top of that. Make another style, call it skullcrusher or something, and have that style add the strenght to sneak attack damage. That way you can keep the feature as a option.




Glad you got something to use in your campaign, let me know if it works well for ya :)
Will do! I will make it avaible to my players, and we have one joining soon so maybe he does a rogue, but we have both a ranger and a dex figther already so maybe he will go in a diferent direction

[Ghost Dragon]

Happy to help.

Also, I did add the SA damage only once/round. Round 1: attack once, brutal strike on that attack. Seccond attack vs incapacited target auto-critical, 10d6 SA x 2 for critical 20d6. Round 2: attack target auto crit for +20d6 SA dmg in one of the attacks :P

Ahh right, yup I see where it came from now. Cool.



Could swear i saw shield proficiency, maybe i was thinking of my character :p the athletics bit was a suggestion not to give it free prof.
I liked the name heavy handed better. I also assumed it had a regular athletics check before, so glad you put one in there. Since you did put the check in, and they get no shield prof, would be simpler just let them shove as a bonus action, which can be used either to knockdown or push, and it would be ok.
Getting both the styles AND str to SA is still too much, and you get new proficiencys and get to SA with better weapons on top of that. Make another style, call it skullcrusher or something, and have that style add the strenght to sneak attack damage. That way you can keep the feature as a option.

No worries on the shield part, I thought I did have it in there at one point anyways lol. Changed the name back to Heavy Handed (I liked that name better too) and sharpened the description so as not to duplicate rules that are already written in the book.
Ok, so with the whole Str to sneak attack it was the whole 'thing' of the Brawny Rogue of 4e this is based off, pretty much everything else is built off of that (Making a rogue where Str is the secondary stat). I'd be more likely to want to drop some of the proficiencies like the new weapon and armor to keep both the str to SA and styles. What say you? :smallwink:

Also any suggestion on the "Mettle" style I put to replace the side step? I like the idea fluff wise of it being a thing to shake of a particularly hefty blow, or recover from an condition or something like that, but not sure mechanically what to do with it.

Thanks heaps for feedback mate, making it better for sure with everyone's help.

[chando]

Ahh right, yup I see where it came from now. Cool.
No worries on the shield part, I thought I did have it in there at one point anyways lol. Changed the name back to Heavy Handed (I liked that name better too) and sharpened the description so as not to duplicate rules that are already written in the book.

I liked that Heavy handed is back, and kinda liked that requires you to hit before you can use your bonus action to shove (avoiding the close in, bonus action shove to prone, attack with advantage and sneack attack in the same turn before having extra attack, as well as making sense[you hit the guy so hard that he stumbles back/falls prone]) but I would consider allowing taking the bonus action whenever you take the attack acion(just like the shield master feat) and allowing the "combo" bonus action knowdown, then melee attack with adv and SA; especially if restricting to having a onehanded weapon and no other weapon as it is(i.e preventing TWF)



Ok, so with the whole Str to sneak attack it was the whole 'thing' of the Brawny Rogue of 4e this is based off, pretty much everything else is built off of that (Making a rogue where Str is the secondary stat). I'd be more likely to want to drop some of the proficiencies like the new weapon and armor to keep both the str to SA and styles. What say you? :smallwink:
I hear you. As much as I like this concept, i fear it becomes unbalanced. But lets take a deeper look at things:
Proficiency with medium armor: This allows for rogues who "dump" Dex to 14/16 with a feat for the same or lower AC than a straigh rogue with light armor + Dex 20. Not really a concern. and if any rogue chooses to get half plate over not getting disadvantage to stealth checks, well, hes dumb. :P So no problem getting those as long as they keep not getting the shild prof.
Proficiency with some martial melee weapons without the heavy or two handed propriety, and finesse ability with those: The best weapon a rogue can currently use is the rapier, which is already a 1d8 finesse weapon. The weapons allowed by this ability are: Battleaxe(V), Flail, Lance(reach, and weird right?), Longsword(V), Morningstar, Tident(V-), Warpick, Warhammer, Whip(reach).
Now of those, most would either grant the same damage, or a whooping one point of damage above the rapier, the oddcases being the whip with its reach, but doing less damage than a shortsword and 2 less average damage than the rapier, and the lance, which is enough of a corner case for me not to care about it, since it actually gives you disadvantage vs enemies within 5 feet and make you not able to sneak attack. And the trident, which does similar damage to the shortsword but may be wielded two handed for rapier like damage, and might be throw.
Honestly, those proficiencies and the ability to use them with Sneak Attack do not concern me one bit, and only make the "thug"more seem badass without actually incresing his numbers.
So yes, the archetype can get those for free. The Str to Intimidate checks also don`t make that much of an impact on game balance.
Ok, now here is the thing, Im gonna look at other archetypes bisides rogue ones and see fo adding 3-5 damage/ turn + the combat style bonus is ok comparable to those.

Ranger: Hunter has the potential to add 1d8 + 15 + (any magical weapon/poison/similar bonus) damage per round with hordbreaker, or at least 1d8(4.5 average) against someone who has already loose any amount of HP in the encounter.

Paladin: Once/shor rest either: + Cha to attack rolls (WOW), restrain somebody(meh) or advantage vs somebody/make them frightened (ok). besides extra spells/channel divinty options not mentioned.

Fighter (battlemaster): basically guarantee 1d8 extra damage 4/encounter with extra maneuver seff added on to it.

Barbarian: Totem spirit options (all great, bear is mindblowing amazing) or Frenzy (offensevily sound, but kind limited in use)

I honestly think that 3-5 extra damage once/round IF able to sneak attack paired with one of the style options is ok.
Of course, every campaign you run all the rogues are vindicators and most of the multiclass rogues are vindicators, them we should scale back to Str to SA damage being one of the styles, but i think its fine for now.



Also any suggestion on the "Mettle" style I put to replace the side step? I like the idea fluff wise of it being a thing to shake of a particularly hefty blow, or recover from an condition or something like that, but not sure mechanically what to do with it.

Thanks heaps for feedback mate, making it better for sure with everyone's help.

Here's a thought: Steal from the warlock dark one's blessing (and a little bit of necromancer wizard): When you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points or fewer, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier + your rogue level (minimum 1).

I would actually use Constitution for this ability instead of Strength (for the archetype consistency) or Charisma(warlock original and intimidation based) since its so little difference, but it seems to fit the flavor better. But I could see working well with any of the three abilities, since the rogue levels are making most of the hard work. :P

[Ghost Dragon]

I liked that Heavy handed is back, and kinda liked that requires you to hit before you can use your bonus action to shove (avoiding the close in, bonus action shove to prone, attack with advantage and sneack attack in the same turn before having extra attack, as well as making sense[you hit the guy so hard that he stumbles back/falls prone]) but I would consider allowing taking the bonus action whenever you take the attack acion(just like the shield master feat) and allowing the "combo" bonus action knowdown, then melee attack with adv and SA; especially if restricting to having a onehanded weapon and no other weapon as it is(i.e preventing TWF)

Done and done ;)


I hear you. As much as I like this concept, i fear it becomes unbalanced. But lets take a deeper look at things:
Proficiency with medium armor: This allows for rogues who "dump" Dex to 14/16 with a feat for the same or lower AC than a straigh rogue with light armor + Dex 20. Not really a concern. and if any rogue chooses to get half plate over not getting disadvantage to stealth checks, well, hes dumb. :P So no problem getting those as long as they keep not getting the shild prof.
Proficiency with some martial melee weapons without the heavy or two handed propriety, and finesse ability with those: The best weapon a rogue can currently use is the rapier, which is already a 1d8 finesse weapon. The weapons allowed by this ability are: Battleaxe(V), Flail, Lance(reach, and weird right?), Longsword(V), Morningstar, Tident(V-), Warpick, Warhammer, Whip(reach).
Now of those, most would either grant the same damage, or a whooping one point of damage above the rapier, the oddcases being the whip with its reach, but doing less damage than a shortsword and 2 less average damage than the rapier, and the lance, which is enough of a corner case for me not to care about it, since it actually gives you disadvantage vs enemies within 5 feet and make you not able to sneak attack. And the trident, which does similar damage to the shortsword but may be wielded two handed for rapier like damage, and might be throw.
Honestly, those proficiencies and the ability to use them with Sneak Attack do not concern me one bit, and only make the "thug"more seem badass without actually incresing his numbers.
So yes, the archetype can get those for free. The Str to Intimidate checks also don`t make that much of an impact on game balance.
Ok, now here is the thing, Im gonna look at other archetypes bisides rogue ones and see fo adding 3-5 damage/ turn + the combat style bonus is ok comparable to those.

Ranger: Hunter has the potential to add 1d8 + 15 + (any magical weapon/poison/similar bonus) damage per round with hordbreaker, or at least 1d8(4.5 average) against someone who has already loose any amount of HP in the encounter.

Paladin: Once/shor rest either: + Cha to attack rolls (WOW), restrain somebody(meh) or advantage vs somebody/make them frightened (ok). besides extra spells/channel divinty options not mentioned.

Fighter (battlemaster): basically guarantee 1d8 extra damage 4/encounter with extra maneuver seff added on to it.

Barbarian: Totem spirit options (all great, bear is mindblowing amazing) or Frenzy (offensevily sound, but kind limited in use)

I honestly think that 3-5 extra damage once/round IF able to sneak attack paired with one of the style options is ok.
Of course, every campaign you run all the rogues are vindicators and most of the multiclass rogues are vindicators, them we should scale back to Str to SA damage being one of the styles, but i think its fine for now.

Your comment about every rogue wanting to take this subclass due to its power made me think, I don't want it to be so good that its a no brainer choice, so I have done some reworking. 3rd level now only grants finesse to simple weapons with no armour or additional weapon profs.

3rd level str to SA is now half str mod rounded down, with full str to SA its own style (Used your skull crusher suggestion I hope you don't mind :smallwink:)

Changed 13th to a utility as well to balance out further, as upon reflection that alone, although at 13th level, still is a bit of a draw card in terms of which rogue subclass you might choose, and the utility fits the fluff I think and makes it a little more comparable to other subclasses in power.

Stripped back 9th ability to just be the damage resistance on opp attacks as the rogue can choose to spend resources on expertise for Athletics and Intimidate if they so choose.



Here's a thought: Steal from the warlock dark one's blessing (and a little bit of necromancer wizard): When you reduce a hostile creature to 0 hit points or fewer, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier + your rogue level (minimum 1).

I would actually use Constitution for this ability instead of Strength (for the archetype consistency) or Charisma(warlock original and intimidation based) since its so little difference, but it seems to fit the flavor better. But I could see working well with any of the three abilities, since the rogue levels are making most of the hard work. :P

Done and done, love it.

Have a look and see if this is more balanced now and not something that would just be an auto pick. Thanks again for everyones feedback. Cheers

[chando]

I must say I`m impressed! the class seems much more balanced and flavorful now! :D

By the way, on the naming suggestions, I`m calling your archetype Brutal Scoundrel in my homebrew world, as vindicator i think remembers too much of vengeance and paladin`s oaths. :P

I think you went overboard with the reduction of the 3rd level power of this subclass, although it is certainly balanced.
See, Finesse with simple melee weapon does not change anything, as with the exception of the spear and quarterstaff versatile weapons when using two hands, all weapons deal less damage than the Rapier which rogues are already proficient with. If you are afraid somebody will pick a corner case Lance or a trident to gain some advantage over the rapier from the martial weapons, maybe consider something like this: You gain proficiency with two of the following weapons: Battleaxe, Flail, Morningstar, Scimitar, War Pick or Warhammer. You can treat both of those weapons, as well as the Longsword, as if they had the Finesse propriety while using them in one hand. Same damage as rapier, brutal flavor :)
Clerics get Heavy Armor proficiency from a number of Domains. Getting Medium armor, changing the AC from 13 + Dex to 14/15+ 2 Dex max(+1 with a feat) doesn`t really change much other than allowing a more Str less Dex rogue. which i think is a good think for this archetype.
So far only new options, not more power.

Now, Ruthless is were i think its a little weird now. If you give only half Str modifier to SA damage it makes it meaningless minor bonus, and adding back 2-3 damage back as the skullcrahser doesn`t feel skullcrushery enough, especially next to the other options. Seccond strike is probably the weakest option from the others, and its stronger than the current skullcrusher (adding full attack ability, likely 4-5, instead of 2-3). Also dividing the ability gives even less incentive to have Str as a secondary ability. (As far as the name skullcrusher go, go fot it, its an awesome name. :))
Another idea for ability: maybe allow to reroll each SA damage die that shows a 1 once as a regular ability and add the STR to damage as the skullcrusher or vice versa. Rerolling a 1 increases the average of the SA damage die from 3.5 to 3.916 per die, but its noticeable in play and it feels good when you 1 turn into a 5-6.

Also, I`m rather call Mettle ability Resilience, to avoid confusion with the 3.5 ability, as this one as nothing to do with saves and everything to do with being though.

Resolve feels very balanced, great defensive intimidating-like ability.

Interrogator: Man, this ability. Its freaking awesome. Mindblowing awesome. Hit the nail on the head as far as 5e flavor abilities go.

A little typo on Brutal Strike, your forgot to make it so you must complete a short OR LONG rest before you can use it again.

[Ghost Dragon]

I must say I`m impressed! the class seems much more balanced and flavorful now! :D

By the way, on the naming suggestions, I`m calling your archetype Brutal Scoundrel in my homebrew world, as vindicator i think remembers too much of vengeance and paladin`s oaths. :P

I think you went overboard with the reduction of the 3rd level power of this subclass, although it is certainly balanced.
See, Finesse with simple melee weapon does not change anything, as with the exception of the spear and quarterstaff versatile weapons when using two hands, all weapons deal less damage than the Rapier which rogues are already proficient with. If you are afraid somebody will pick a corner case Lance or a trident to gain some advantage over the rapier from the martial weapons, maybe consider something like this: You gain proficiency with two of the following weapons: Battleaxe, Flail, Morningstar, Scimitar, War Pick or Warhammer. You can treat both of those weapons, as well as the Longsword, as if they had the Finesse propriety while using them in one hand. Same damage as rapier, brutal flavor :)
Clerics get Heavy Armor proficiency from a number of Domains. Getting Medium armor, changing the AC from 13 + Dex to 14/15+ 2 Dex max(+1 with a feat) doesn`t really change much other than allowing a more Str less Dex rogue. which i think is a good think for this archetype.
So far only new options, not more power.

Now, Ruthless is were i think its a little weird now. If you give only half Str modifier to SA damage it makes it meaningless minor bonus, and adding back 2-3 damage back as the skullcrahser doesn`t feel skullcrushery enough, especially next to the other options. Seccond strike is probably the weakest option from the others, and its stronger than the current skullcrusher (adding full attack ability, likely 4-5, instead of 2-3). Also dividing the ability gives even less incentive to have Str as a secondary ability. (As far as the name skullcrusher go, go fot it, its an awesome name. :))
Another idea for ability: maybe allow to reroll each SA damage die that shows a 1 once as a regular ability and add the STR to damage as the skullcrusher or vice versa. Rerolling a 1 increases the average of the SA damage die from 3.5 to 3.916 per die, but its noticeable in play and it feels good when you 1 turn into a 5-6.

Also, I`m rather call Mettle ability Resilience, to avoid confusion with the 3.5 ability, as this one as nothing to do with saves and everything to do with being though.

Resolve feels very balanced, great defensive intimidating-like ability.

Interrogator: Man, this ability. Its freaking awesome. Mindblowing awesome. Hit the nail on the head as far as 5e flavor abilities go.

A little typo on Brutal Strike, your forgot to make it so you must complete a short OR LONG rest before you can use it again.

I like all of what you've suggested here (Including the name suggestion. Yoink!) and put that stuff back in (glad you like Interrogator:smallwink:). Gave the proficiencies you suggested at 3rd again, but kept simple weapons giving finesse as well for character options (I like the idea of a thug carrying a great club in two hands look). Bumped str to SA back up and made skullcrusher re-roll 1's on SA.

Think its pretty close to finished now.

[chando]

I like all of what you've suggested here (Including the name suggestion. Yoink!) and put that stuff back in (glad you like Interrogator:smallwink:). Gave the proficiencies you suggested at 3rd again, but kept simple weapons giving finesse as well for character options (I like the idea of a thug carrying a great club in two hands look). Bumped str to SA back up and made skullcrusher re-roll 1's on SA.

Think its pretty close to finished now.


Yep, I think the Brutal Scoundrel is pretty much done and it looks scary as hell and ready to rock! :smallbiggrin: