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Mr. Mask
2015-02-05, 11:52 PM
Similar to the Avian/Harpy thread. Who has interest or put thought in the idea of mermaid or aquatic civilization?


Have aquatic sentients in your own homebrew settings? Have a particular take on mermaids or aquatic creatures? What are your ideas or thoughts on the subject?

Acacia OnnaStik
2015-02-06, 12:20 AM
I have some thoughts about this that I'm really, really happy about.

Without fire, there are a lot of things they can't make for themselves, sure. On the other hand, there are resources only they can get to, and no one has their mobility across the ocean... or any mobility across the ocean, if the merfolk don't like them... so they can trade for just about anything they want. Or levy a tax for the use of the shipping lanes, and buy things with that money.

They export pearls, seafood, and manganese nodules, and they buy a lot of worked metal (there are things you just can't do without it, and of course it corrodes really fast in seawater so they always need more) and glass (it's their favorite Surface luxury).

Since sound transfers so poorly between water and air, they and the surface-dwellers have developed a fairly sophisticated sign language, which has become a kind of mercantile lingua franca since so many merchants have to know it anyway.

goto124
2015-02-06, 12:23 AM
There won't be electricity... :P

Mr. Mask
2015-02-06, 02:11 AM
You could have electricity, just that it'd be a lot more dangerous and need much more procedure. Sockets would need to specially designed to lock plugs in place which fully insulate the plug and socket, and only let power come through once it was sure no electricity would leak out. Power lines would need more insulation to prevent electricity jumping out.


Acacia: I wasn't sure how quickly metal corrodes in salt water before, but I managed to find this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-q4cncpsrI
As he points out, it's happening a lot faster because it's steel wool and the water has access to most of the metal's mass. Still, completely brown in about an hour gives me the impression metal won't last long. Some metals are more water resistant than others, of course. Aluminium, stainless steel (when it's finally invented), gold, etc..

BWR
2015-02-06, 02:30 AM
"Creature Crucible: The Sea People" details underwater civilization and is worth your time to look into.

You can have them be mid-powered biotech societies, a la Dark Sun halflings or the Laundry's version of Deep Ones. Tailed lifeforms, especially bacteria in the Laundry's case, doing everything you need. Need to dig a trench? Get some specialized squid. Need carve through solid rock? Specialized ooze. Weapons are specially treated spines from some giant shellfish that have the hardness of metal. Armor is likewise specially grown and treated shells. Fire, is more difficult but captured fire elementals in airtight empty containers combined with people with fire resistance. Buildings are a mix of stuff carved out of the rock and living coral reefs - force grown into desired shapes for maximum convenience and artistry. Metals are quickly useless underwater but with enough biotech/magic you don't need metal.

Acacia OnnaStik
2015-02-06, 04:12 AM
Acacia: I wasn't sure how quickly metal corrodes in salt water before, but I managed to find this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-q4cncpsrI
As he points out, it's happening a lot faster because it's steel wool and the water has access to most of the metal's mass. Still, completely brown in about an hour gives me the impression metal won't last long. Some metals are more water resistant than others, of course. Aluminium, stainless steel (when it's finally invented), gold, etc..

They definitely go through metal items fast, but there are a few things that just can't reasonably be made of anything else. There are ways to inhibit rust- even just a good coat of paint will do a lot- and of course fantasy settings have their own ways, and often also "special" metals, like mithril, which don't corrode at all (while being more useful than gold).

Most applications will use other things, though. Especially for ones surfacers won't want to help with. I'm picturing big augers made of whale bone, boring the hulls of ships that foolishly made enemies of the sea-folk.

Excession
2015-02-06, 05:24 AM
Bronze is particularly resistant to seawater corrosion, so might be the preferred metal over steel. If using steel, zinc can stop it rusting. As used for modern ships.

If your race, or one of them, is semiaquatic, they might be able to run industrial processes on islands. Do the mining underwater, and the smelting on a desert island somewhere.

Mr. Mask
2015-02-06, 05:31 AM
Lets see, attacking ships... The fin whale can travel at about 18 knots at cruising speed, with spurts up to 23 knots (I think there's a whale that can manage 30 knots, for a short period of time). The fastest sailing ship manages a close 22 knots, the American clipper. However, that ship was developed in the 19th century, and I'm not sure what similar ships may've reached similar speeds prior to then. Also, other clippers report 18 or 19 knots. While you might expect these small ships weren't suitable merchant ships (they kind of weren't, their load capacity was lighter), they were actually quite popular trading vessels for speedier delivery.

Those are the more extreme examples. On the more average examples, a humpback whale travels at about 7 knots, and a Phoenician Trireme could also reach about 7 knots at its normal pace. So, it does depend on what ships and whales are available.

The humans are also likely to consider the threat and employ defensive measures, like armouring the bottom of their ships. Pulling a small hole in the bottom of a large boat doesn't accomplish a lot, and with armour plating it would get a lot hard to put holes in it (especially while it is moving). They could also try stuff like dropping bladed nets into the water, or some other methods I've forgotten.

hamishspence
2015-02-06, 07:29 AM
Lets see, attacking ships... The fin whale can travel at about 18 knots at cruising speed, with spurts up to 23 knots (I think there's a whale that can manage 30 knots, for a short period of time).

Sei whales are the fastest of the large whales:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sei_whale

and there's plenty of dolphins capable of speedy sprints, of which the largest is the orca.

Solaris
2015-02-06, 09:35 AM
The humans are also likely to consider the threat and employ defensive measures, like armouring the bottom of their ships. Pulling a small hole in the bottom of a large boat doesn't accomplish a lot, and with armour plating it would get a lot hard to put holes in it (especially while it is moving). They could also try stuff like dropping bladed nets into the water, or some other methods I've forgotten.

That also makes the ships move much slower, forcing them to carry more supplies and making them more vulnerable to attack from both aquatic threats and surface threats. It doesn't do you a lot of good to avoid getting tagged by mermaids if the pirates get you.

Yora
2015-02-06, 09:48 AM
I've spend quite some effort in figuring out some workable version for purely underwater industrial manufacturing a few weeks ago. It all got so bothersome that in the end I maid merpeople a race of fey and scrapped the entire underwater civilization thing from my setting.
The only aquatic humanoids are Deep Ones, who pretty much live in a stone age society without metals or pottery.

Admiral Squish
2015-02-06, 01:05 PM
Underwater societies are always tricky. I think an important point to make note of is the differences between the many different underwater biomes that are often forgotten about. You've got many very different kinds of seafloor and pelagic environments.
Starting at the water's edge, you have amphibious environments, like swamps, shorelines, similar. Races from this environment are probably the most likely to develop something we'd recognize as civilization. They'd be able to make fire, use wood, and other major elements of human society. Maybe they come shore periodically, or they only spend a portion of their time underwater, or maybe it's an even split.
Next, you have the epipelagic area, which contains both shallow waters over the continental shelf and around islands, and open water near the surface. Shallow waters may be able to support kelp forests, sea-grasses, corals, clams, oyster beds, and similar, which provides ample opportunity for society to develop. Open water is less hospitable, but still rather welcoming, and if pelagic groups foray into the shallow waters, they might share some common traits with groups in those regions.
Below that, you have the mesopelagic area, which includes grounded environments like the continental slope and seamounts, and the deeper open waters. Grounded environments in this zone are where one's most likely to find corals and such, but there's less sunlight, making growing crops very difficult. Open water in this zone is cold and dark, and life is widely-spaced, but still prevalent. Societies in this area, open water or grounded, would likely have to subsist on fish, either hunting larger creatures actively with spears or natural weapons, or with large nets.
Below that is the bathypelagic zone. Grounded environments include the bases of seamounts, and the continental rise, but they're mostly barren in these areas, but for perhaps sponges and similar. Not a lot of potential for significant societies, as life gets pretty harsh down here. Very little light, not Open water's not much better, and life is rather scarce all around. For this area, you're most likely to see pure hunters surviving on large deep-sea prey, something like inuit societies.
Next is the abyssopelagic zone. Even the name sounds harsh. There's no light. Pressure will do nightmarish thing to creatures unprepared for such depths. Those few creatures that survive here are often so specialized they cannot survive anywhere else. Some even undergo explosive decompression if they go up too high. there's no plant life. The sea floor is a barren, sandy infinity referred to as the abyssal plain. Open water has very few creatures. Creatures in this zone survive by feeding on each other, or on marine snow, dead or pre-digested plant and animal matter falling from upper levels. There's the occasional buffet in the form of a whale carcass or similar large animal bodies. Here's also where you'd find volcanic vents, which support their own ecosystems, so it's possible that some form of small, permanent society might form around some of those.
Below even that, there's sea trenches. Insane pressures, absolutely no light whatsoever, it's a freaky place. I think it's highly unlikely to find societies of any form here.

Acacia OnnaStik
2015-02-06, 03:11 PM
That also makes the ships move much slower, forcing them to carry more supplies and making them more vulnerable to attack from both aquatic threats and surface threats. It doesn't do you a lot of good to avoid getting tagged by mermaids if the pirates get you.

I like the way you think! :smallamused:

Yeah, they don't have to win any arms races, they just have to be reliably able to make the cost of angering them higher than the price of placating them.

Plus, of course, you'd be losing out on the benefits of their goodwill: fresh news whenever you come across a passing school (pod?), the opportunity to buy more food if what you brought goes bad or wasn't enough- hey, add in a reliable way to signal them at a distance and they could hire out as the AAA of the sea!

Yora
2015-02-06, 03:15 PM
For basic chemistry, liquid water is extremely important. It's very difficult to mix substances without some liquid to dissolve them in, and there is no more versatile solvent in the universe than water.
But for advanced chemistry, as you find it in the production of metal, ceramics, and leather objects and so on, having the ability to chose when to have water and when not to have water is just as relevant. A purely aquatic species is unlikely to develop the idea of an underwater chamber filled with some kind of gas. If you get aquatic civilization, it would almost certainly be amphibious.

WarKitty
2015-02-06, 03:22 PM
One thing to think about - writing. Most of our writing systems that aren't based on chipping things into stone don't really work underwater. Whatever they'd come up with would have to be far different than what we think of. Probably the best way would be some sort of system where you'd prick characters into a suitable surface.

Psykenthrope
2015-02-06, 08:04 PM
One thing to think about - writing. Most of our writing systems that aren't based on chipping things into stone don't really work underwater. Whatever they'd come up with would have to be far different than what we think of. Probably the best way would be some sort of system where you'd prick characters into a suitable surface.

Tell me if I'm crazy here, but what about using tattoos on the skins of scholars to record things? This might not work very well for things like the minutiae of bookkeeping, but it might work very well for histories and sciences, especially if their script allows them to compress a large amount of information into a small surface area.

The materials could probably be harvested from marine dwelling plants and animals.

Acacia OnnaStik
2015-02-06, 09:17 PM
They might be stubbornly illiterate, like old Greek philosophers complaining about how this newfangled "writing" means no one can just remember things anymore.

Or what about that Inca knotted-cord system?

Psykenthrope
2015-02-06, 09:51 PM
They might be stubbornly illiterate, like old Greek philosophers complaining about how this newfangled "writing" means no one can just remember things anymore.

Or what about that Inca knotted-cord system?

What, and open up the setting for an in-character rendition of Biggest Rock is Best Rock?

And I like the knotted-cord idea.

Solaris
2015-02-07, 12:19 AM
For basic chemistry, liquid water is extremely important. It's very difficult to mix substances without some liquid to dissolve them in, and there is no more versatile solvent in the universe than water.
But for advanced chemistry, as you find it in the production of metal, ceramics, and leather objects and so on, having the ability to chose when to have water and when not to have water is just as relevant. A purely aquatic species is unlikely to develop the idea of an underwater chamber filled with some kind of gas. If you get aquatic civilization, it would almost certainly be amphibious.

Only if the civilization develops along the lines of human civilization. Even without wacky biotech, you can satisfy the needs and wants of a culture through animal husbandry. Just because they don't have technology like we do doesn't necessarily mean they won't be civilized.

Mr. Mask
2015-02-07, 07:29 AM
Without genetic engineering, mermaid biotech would be limited to the domesticable sea creatures available, and the extents they can be bred to. So, horses and dogs would be the main examples of the extents you can go with it.



Sei whales are the fastest of the large whales:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sei_whale

and there's plenty of dolphins capable of speedy sprints, of which the largest is the orca. That'd be the whale I alluded to, with a burst speed of about 30 knots. How do you intend the whales and dolphins to use their sprinting to catch up to ships, and to stay with them as the ships continue to move? I didn't expect it to be very useful.


That also makes the ships move much slower, forcing them to carry more supplies and making them more vulnerable to attack from both aquatic threats and surface threats. It doesn't do you a lot of good to avoid getting tagged by mermaids if the pirates get you. What kind of defences are you thinking of, to significantly slow a ship?


Yora: I recall hearing that mermaids might be able to perform chemistry by combining gases.

hamishspence
2015-02-07, 07:35 AM
In a D&D-ish world, the ships would tend to be much slower than in a more modern one.

If the "fast baleen whales" have stat adjustments to justify their high speeds (feats like Rapid Swimming, maybe) I could see them being a viable option for merfolk who want to waylay ships, taking advantage of hustling or even the Run action in combat, and adverse winds.

Whales have high CONs, so could "forced march" (swimming march?) for quite a while before taking nonlethal damage:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/movement.htm#forcedMarch

Mr. Mask
2015-02-07, 08:31 AM
Well, I gave an example of a Phoenician Trireme. These are abstracted amounts, without taking note of the wind and sea, the destination of the trip. Haven't verified the page, but this one gives an example of how wind can make a difference: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Journals/TAPA/82/Speed_under_Sail_of_Ancient_Ships*.html

If we're talking about DnD stats, I won't be much help to you there. I don't know how much HPs or AC ships have in DnD, nor the DnD characteristics of a boring tool.

Tarlek Flamehai
2015-02-07, 08:50 AM
You don't have to sink a ship at sea. Just foul the rudder. A ship that cannot steer is basically doomed.

Mr. Mask
2015-02-07, 08:58 AM
There would be ways around that. Have a rudder that you lower into the water only when you want to turn, use oars, or even certain sail techniques can turn a boat.

SimonMoon6
2015-02-07, 01:22 PM
One thing to think about - writing. Most of our writing systems that aren't based on chipping things into stone don't really work underwater. Whatever they'd come up with would have to be far different than what we think of. Probably the best way would be some sort of system where you'd prick characters into a suitable surface.

So, many standard low-powered magic items are relatively inaccessible. Scrolls as we know them wouldn't exist. Spellbooks as we know them wouldn't exist.

Also, potions... it's hard to drink something underwater, when it just spreads out into the surrounding water as soon as you open the bottle.

But there could be alternatives: scratches on shells could produce a sort of writing. And perhaps some sort of chewy paste (like Starburst) could be used instead of liquid potions.

Since merfolk breathe air, they could do a lot in environments with air. There could be caves full of trapped air that they could work inside. If it's a finite air supply, though, this would not be a good place to work with fire, as the oxygen would soon be used up. However, if it's a magical environment, it's possible that there are undersea caves with a source of air that replenishes itself. And if such things don't occur naturally, well, merfolk are intelligent creatures who have experience with air and therefore might construct such a cave.

Failing that, they can travel to islands or coasts and do work. They might be a bit vulnerable with a limited ability to move on land, but they can at least exist on the fringes of coastal areas. If all else fails, they could build boats not for travel but just as a sort of floating laboratory where they can work on technology that needs air.

I'm not sure how mining for metals would work underwater (is there easy access to locations where metals can be found? Would the cave walls made of sand instantly collapse? etc). But again, this is probably a magical world, so merfolk can simply cast wall of iron until they have enough iron to shape into whatever objects they need... unless the DM makes them only able to learn some sort of aquatic equivalent, like "Wall of Coral" or something.

Solaris
2015-02-07, 01:54 PM
What kind of defences are you thinking of, to significantly slow a ship?

Any that increase its bulk or draft. Water imposes a lot more drag on a ship than air does, and this is without even getting into the compounded impact of an armored ship's heavier weight on its sailing speed. If you get fancier, any that alter its center of balance can make it more unwieldy and thus force it to maneuver slower, though in this case something below the waterline will actually be likely to increase its stability by lowering its center of balance.

There's a reason ironclads weren't in use until the advent of the steam engine.

Acacia OnnaStik
2015-02-07, 03:09 PM
There would be ways around that. Have a rudder that you lower into the water only when you want to turn, use oars, or even certain sail techniques can turn a boat.

And, again, all of these cost you- time and money to redesign the vessel, manpower to row, efficiency to rely solely on the sails. At a certain point it's easier to just pay the dang mermaids- they want their money, not the opportunity to drown you.

Look at it this way: The sea-folk have legitimacy. The seas are theirs, because they live there. They have as much right to impose duty as any land-bound government. No land-bound government wants to fight them, because what would be the point? Conquering large swathes of seawater they can't use, what with their subjects not being aquatic in nature?

There are always smugglers, but smugglers don't likely have the resources to wage an outright war with the people who own this territory, know it better than any air-breather ever could, and may well be able to sic a hurricane on you if all else fails. (I know putting a good weather-mage on the payroll would be the first order of business if I ran a maritime empire.)

Attempts to illegally circumvent them would probably be mostly about speed and stealth. Maybe some of them would even succeed. But I think a lot of them would rather just pay someone off than risk losing valuable ships and cargo entirely.

Edit:

I'm not sure how mining for metals would work underwater (is there easy access to locations where metals can be found? Would the cave walls made of sand instantly collapse? etc).
Manganese nodules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_nodule). I generally figure they just use them as trade goods with the surface and buy whatever metals they can't do without, but if you want merfolk to do their own metallurgy, these things are probably going to figure heavily in it.

Tarlek Flamehai
2015-02-07, 06:02 PM
There would be ways around that. Have a rudder that you lower into the water only when you want to turn, use oars, or even certain sail techniques can turn a boat.

Any rudder or oars will be vulnerable. Most of those sailing techniques would be useless or highly impractical with galleons and other sailing vessels found in your typical fantasy setting.

Algeh
2015-02-07, 07:06 PM
While not an RPG setting, Tanith Lee's Tales from the Flat Earth series of fantasy novels had an underwater setting that would probably work well in a fantasy game. Basically, rather than being a native underwater civilization the sea dwellers used to be surface people who were magicians and were driven underwater in a much earlier age (mostly, this comes up in the latter half of Death's Master and again in Delirium's Mistress, for those who actually want to track down and read these books). So, there were domed underwater cities and such, although the sea people also had magic to breathe underwater (and do a lot of other stuff). If you want something that looks recognizably like civilization, having your undersea-dwellers have a surface background lets you have them do things like create air pockets to do the things one can't do well under water since they'd have already known they wanted to do that when they got under the water in the first place. It makes them less authentically different, but it may be easier to deal with in terms of figuring out what they're like. Magic-heavy colonization of an undersea environment would look pretty different than a natively-evolved civilization would since they'd have brought their surface learning and tried to find workarounds to keep doing the things that worked on the surface, basically.

Of course, "driven underwater by the surface dwellers" sounds an awful lot the the default "underground re-write of species" backstory in D&D, so it might not be received well as an explanation by the players.

Mr. Mask
2015-02-07, 10:01 PM
Any that increase its bulk or draft. Water imposes a lot more drag on a ship than air does, and this is without even getting into the compounded impact of an armored ship's heavier weight on its sailing speed. If you get fancier, any that alter its center of balance can make it more unwieldy and thus force it to maneuver slower, though in this case something below the waterline will actually be likely to increase its stability by lowering its center of balance.

There's a reason ironclads weren't in use until the advent of the steam engine. So, you're not sure, then? That didn't answer my question.


And, again, all of these cost you- time and money to redesign the vessel, manpower to row, efficiency to rely solely on the sails. At a certain point it's easier to just pay the dang mermaids- they want their money, not the opportunity to drown you.

Look at it this way: The sea-folk have legitimacy. The seas are theirs, because they live there. They have as much right to impose duty as any land-bound government. No land-bound government wants to fight them, because what would be the point? Conquering large swathes of seawater they can't use, what with their subjects not being aquatic in nature?

There are always smugglers, but smugglers don't likely have the resources to wage an outright war with the people who own this territory, know it better than any air-breather ever could, and may well be able to sic a hurricane on you if all else fails. (I know putting a good weather-mage on the payroll would be the first order of business if I ran a maritime empire.)

Attempts to illegally circumvent them would probably be mostly about speed and stealth. Maybe some of them would even succeed. But I think a lot of them would rather just pay someone off than risk losing valuable ships and cargo entirely.

Edit:

Manganese nodules (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manganese_nodule). I generally figure they just use them as trade goods with the surface and buy whatever metals they can't do without, but if you want merfolk to do their own metallurgy, these things are probably going to figure heavily in it. Well, redesigning the vessel wouldn't necessarily cost you much, in the long term. Once mermaids were discovered, the next evolution of vessels would certainly keep them in mind, and design around them. However, the changes suggested so far aren't significant. Vessels already have to worry about oars and rudders, and have ways to replace them, with carpenters on board and spares, and lumber for fixing stuff. That's just how it is with a wooden vessel.

If the mermaids want money, the possibility of hiring certain groups of mermaids to sabotage a certain faction's trade and ships comes to mind. That could be interesting. Generally, people will find a way to fight over something, or the city just doesn't feel like paying the fees or somesuch. Or the mermaids get greedy. It wasn't uncommon for Raubritter and rival nobles and towns to start imposing fees on boats crossing rivers, lakes, roads, and even sections of ocean if they could (which was often highly illegal, but people did it anyway). In contrast, I can also imagine humans funding proxy wars underwater, between different factions of mermaids, trying to control the sea through their group.

Well, if magic gets into the mix, it gets harder to predict the outcome. Wizards might be able to give water breathing to a land based army, which might be able to just overrun and slaughter the mermaids if the land forces are more X or Y. Or the mermaids might do the same to the land people. Weather magic is more in tune with legends and old folklore, though generally the protection against it is offerings and prayers to the gods, and maybe having your own magician to perform a counter-spell.

As for smugglers, either they smuggle their stuff past the mermaids, "we're just merchants under the protection of Kaldbern, who pays you," or pay them a protection fee, "Here's your payment." It's not like the mermaids can come on board and inspect the cargo. They mightn't really care or understand land goods intended for land use. Mermaids might be hired as coast guards against smuggling, if they have some way to come aboard. That puts whoever comes aboard at risk of a hostage situation or desperate killing, which the mermaids could retaliate against (though hostages complicate things).



Any rudder or oars will be vulnerable. Most of those sailing techniques would be useless or highly impractical with galleons and other sailing vessels found in your typical fantasy setting. Oars? Not particularly. If they start coming up to try and swipe at the oars, they have to come to a surface level where you can start harpooning them. You could secure the oars by rope or other means, to prevent them being nabbed and pulled away, forcing the sea people to snap them with whales or take a minute sawing them in half. If whales are dime a dozen it doesn't matter, but they honestly ought to be expensive, top tier equipment in the mermaid world, so wounding them with harpoons (they're big targets) is quite a risk just to have them attacking oars. If you see them coming, you can just lift your oars out of the water. And of co9urse, you can carry a lot of oars without upsetting the ship.

With the rudder, not as such. The rudder is only vulnerable when you lower it in the water, and you can decide what depth to lower it to, and you can either repair the rudder or put in a replacement when damage is done (presenting the same risk benefit scenario of the oars).

Sailing techniques of most square-rigged vessels can turn without a rudder. A rudder is preferable, but not strictly necessary.


Of course, all this seems irrelevant if the mermaids are willing to bring whales to the fight. Why worry about petty damage to replaceable stuff, when you can have a couple of whales ram the vessel into surrender? There are ways to deal with this threat, which I'll get into in another post (not to say the threat is meaningless, even then).

Solaris
2015-02-07, 11:41 PM
So, you're not sure, then? That didn't answer my question.

Condescension in lieu of presenting a credible and reasoned statement. Cute.

I believe I alluded to ironclads; merely adding additional layers of steel or wood to the hull would increase the weight (and thus the draft, and thus slow it down, and thus make it move slower while reducing its cargo capacity because that's how it works). While the British Royal Navy used copper sheathing during the latter years of the Age of Sail, copper's a bit soft for an armor material. If "patch the hole with carpentry" worked, shipwrecks wouldn't be a thing and sea mines would be practically worthless.

The ball is now in your court to come up with something that doesn't affect the ship's weight or draft and thereby not adversely affect the vessel's speed and would be able to reasonably defend against attacks the merfolk could muster. This includes the use of grapnels to capsize the vessel, augurs to bore holes through the hull, and sabotaging the rudder.

Mr. Mask
2015-02-08, 12:32 AM
No... I asked you a simple question. And then your answer didn't answer that question. What else am I supposed to say?

I'm not sure why an ironclad vessel would be the best response to mermaids. Might be useful for reducing the effectiveness of whales.

"The ball is now in your court to come up with something that doesn't affect the ship's weight or draft and thereby not adversely affect the vessel's speed and would be able to reasonably defend against attacks the merfolk could muster. This includes the use of grapnels to capsize the vessel, augurs to bore holes through the hull, and sabotaging the rudder. "
Well that doesn't sound aggressive at all. Before I answer your question, first please tell me, when did I say that there was a way to arm your ships without significantly decreasing their speed? I don't think I said with authority it would be one way or the other, but wanted to know why you were so sure it was one way and not the other.

Solaris
2015-02-08, 01:20 AM
Then you're misinterpreting me when I'm saying it's not a good idea to antagonize merfolk on account of there really is no good defensive measure a preindustrial craftsman can take to defend his vessel against intelligent aquatic foes, as they all add up to 'add more armor' and differ only in the type of armor being added. Wooden plating to deflect cannonballs is an example of this; it's a lot of weight, and even then it's not proof against a cannonball (the best it can do is deflect, not stop entirely, especially at the 'knife-fight' ranges sea battles liked to boil down to). About the best you could try is compartmentalizing a ship, which would just slow the sinking down - if they design watertight doors using preindustrial technology. Another defense you could try against augurs is multiple hulls, but that wanders back into the problem of adding more weight onto a design and slowing the vessel down.

I'm not really sure why you'd be asking me for defenses proof against merfolk attack after I just said there weren't any. It seems an exercise in futility, doesn't it?

Mr. Mask
2015-02-08, 01:52 AM
Personally, my concern is more whale ramming then augurs. If it were just augurs, moving swiftly and perhaps an occasional sharp turn ought to be quite dissuasive, with even a little metal plating at the bottom of the ship will make auguring very difficult (or even impossible, if the mermaids don't possess metal tools). It would also take many successful penetrations before flooding became an issue. If the crew becomes aware of the attempt, they can bail and pump water, cover holes, procedures already common to ships (damage control is said to be one of the most important parts of a navy).

Since you'd probably need a whale to attempt auguring, I consider the greater concern being the whale ramming the vessel. For that, the best defence I can think of would be torpedo nets, rigged with blades and barbed wire, that would hopefully injure and entangle the whale. If they come near to the surface, to breathe or for other reasons, you can also hit them with harpoons, or even catapults and ballistae if you're a military vessel (don't tick off soldiers on their way to a fight, they're itching to shoot something).

Tarlek Flamehai
2015-02-08, 10:10 AM
Pulling the rudder out of the water will immediately cause you to start going off course, unless your course is exactly following the prevailing winds/currents. Going off course can lead to running out of supplies before reaching your destination, or worse in areas with navigational hazards (reefs, shoals, etc). Steering via sails is ponderous. It can work well for broad direction changes, but tight (navigational hazards) or quick (battle conditions) turns require a rudder (or trained crew of oarsmen) to be very effective. It's not necessary to snap oars, one mermaid with a long rope can disrupt the steering capability of a whole crew of oarsmen. As for harpoons, that becomes a question of numbers, training, level of alertness--details of the campaign would be required to make an effective judgement.

One you add basic spell casting to the mix, ships versus an organized, numerically significant and reasonably intelligent aquatic enemy are doomed. By the time you can truly protect the vessels, teleportation becomes a more reasonable mode of transportation.

Mr. Mask
2015-02-08, 11:14 AM
So just teleport and be done with ships.


If you like, I can ask some professional sailors about the rudder thing. Sailing of the past wasn't an exact science, you weren't trying to fight every current and wind to maintain a perfect line from A to B. You followed a ship's log at the same time of year that journey was made, and hope you end up in vaguely the same place as a result.

I don't know what to say about your long rope tactic. It might take half a minute to untie the oars or set up new ones, if you assumed it was possible to tie and tangle that many oars in motion (if mermaids can move at that speed, there are much more serious concerns in mind than tying up oars). For ships that don't primarily rely on oar power,

And no, as soon as you sabotage one rudder or oar, the ship will be on full alert, and anything that tries further attempts can expect harpoons. This is another reason whale ramming is the far better option. If you take a ship by surprise with a few whales, you might be able to ram them into submission before they have a chance to react. If they have torpedo nets out, you still have to worry about that, but a surprised enemy is just easier to deal with in general, which is why it is good to act decisively.

Acacia OnnaStik
2015-02-08, 03:41 PM
So just teleport and be done with ships.

Do you have something against fun?

It's very frustrating when, in a thread that was an open question about what ideas other people have, you keep insisting on your own ideas instead.

Solaris
2015-02-08, 03:43 PM
@ Mr Mask:

With the augurs, I'm operating under the assumption that the merfolk are attempting the attack in what I'd consider a reasonable way. There's multiple merfolk going at it, and they have at least flint tools. If the ship is underway, then it'd stand to reason they'd make use of something like a piton and climbing gear to secure themselves to the hull before drilling holes in it. If they lack metalworking or have no trade with surface races (and if they have no surface trade, why are they concerned with surface ships?), then copper sheathing is adequate for any reasonable augurs I can come up with barring magic.

In that instance, I think it likely they'd make use of grapnels and leverage to try and force ships to capsize. This works best if the ship has a tall mast and the merfolk are numerous, for obvious reasons. It's also the more dangerous option for the mers, because as you said, there's ways surfacers can make life miserable for mers.

Of course, if they have whales (and whales would be natural allies, not only because they're both aquatic but because the surfacers hunt whales), this is all moot. All the whale has to do is come up from beneath the ship and it's game over. You'd pretty much need early modern warships or better (or magic) to survive a concentrated whale attack.

It's either in an era where most sea travel is near coasts, or in an era where navigation is pretty much down to a science. Even if they do the 'sail in that general direction and hope we get close' thing, they're still going to need to maneuver to arrive at their final destination. I like the oars as a method of (at least awkwardly) compensate for a damaged rudder.

@ Tarek Flamehai:

I'm skipping over magic as a solution to these problems mostly on account of the wide variety of magic between different settings. If we assume D&D 3.5E, its logical conclusion is the Tippyverse.

WarKitty
2015-02-08, 04:18 PM
Of course, all this discussion about attacks begs the question of why they would be doing so.

Think about how long and dangerous sea voyages were. Now think of how much better sea trade was for many things. Add in a race that can navigate through the water reliably and get food out of it. Land dwellers would be falling all over themselves for their services.

Tarlek Flamehai
2015-02-08, 04:20 PM
So just teleport and be done with ships.


If you like, I can ask some professional sailors about the rudder thing. Sailing of the past wasn't an exact science, you weren't trying to fight every current and wind to maintain a perfect line from A to B. You followed a ship's log at the same time of year that journey was made, and hope you end up in vaguely the same place as a result.

I don't know what to say about your long rope tactic. It might take half a minute to untie the oars or set up new ones, if you assumed it was possible to tie and tangle that many oars in motion (if mermaids can move at that speed, there are much more serious concerns in mind than tying up oars). For ships that don't primarily rely on oar power,

And no, as soon as you sabotage one rudder or oar, the ship will be on full alert, and anything that tries further attempts can expect harpoons. This is another reason whale ramming is the far better option. If you take a ship by surprise with a few whales, you might be able to ram them into submission before they have a chance to react. If they have torpedo nets out, you still have to worry about that, but a surprised enemy is just easier to deal with in general, which is why it is good to act decisively.


Your OP asked for aquatic tech and seemed to steer (if you'll pardon the pun) directly into conflict with surface ships. I have only been attempting to thelp.

No, you don't need a perfect line to get from A to B, but a perfect line is very desirable in combat and during other navigational hazards.

A half a minute of sabotage is much longer than most conflicts last (game-time) in most game systems.

Yes, using whales is perhaps the easiest and simplest way for aquatics to sink a surface vessel. I don't assume that all conflicts and disagreements necessitate sinkage. Have a nice day.

Tarlek Flamehai
2015-02-08, 04:24 PM
@ Tarek Flamehai:

I'm skipping over magic as a solution to these problems mostly on account of the wide variety of magic between different settings. If we assume D&D 3.5E, its logical conclusion is the Tippyverse.


I was more or less skipping over it as well. But subborning cetaceans, and mermaids in general, just sort of screams magic universe. As such, I was merely attempting to briefly address the elephant in the room. In 3.5 Warp Wood or Shape Wood are the simplest maritime combat solutions.


Peace Out Peeps!

Acacia OnnaStik
2015-02-08, 07:39 PM
Of course, all this discussion about attacks begs the question of why they would be doing so.

Think about how long and dangerous sea voyages were. Now think of how much better sea trade was for many things. Add in a race that can navigate through the water reliably and get food out of it. Land dwellers would be falling all over themselves for their services.

See, this has been my base assumption, and is one reason why Mask's apparent belief that people other than the recklessly, cluelessly overconfident would be eager for any opportunity to stick harpoons in them is so weird and frustrating to me.

I mean, assume you do manage to kill so many mermaids that the rest just stay away from you forever. Now you have a whole new set of problems.

Now you're out of touch with civilization until you dock, barring a lucky encounter with a faster vessel or one going the other way. Now you have to carry more food, and it's more likely to go bad on you.

There are no convenient swimmers you can ask for bearings. Or to have a look at the state of your hull while still under way. Or who might take pity on you if you manage to get yourself shipwrecked anyway.

You have to fight the sea monsters usually found in the kind of story that has mermaids yourself now.

Also, sailors are legendarily superstitious, and murdering sea-people about their legitimate business is almost certainly extremely bad luck. Even if they can't actually curse you for doing it, they may as well have if your crew thinks so.

Just pay the freaking mermaids, it's not worth all this.

Solaris
2015-02-08, 08:53 PM
I think the reason we've been entertaining mer-ship combat so much isn't because we assume its likelihood so much as it's a way for us to explore a point of familiarity (the ship) as it interacts with the merfolk.

Personally, I don't think the merfolk and surfacers would come into conflict much at all. The main exception to this, I think, would be fishermen. Their nets wouldn't be a good thing for the merfolk, even if the mers avoid them; they likely depend on those fish for food. I could also see nets picking up the young and the weak, which wouldn't endear the fishermen to the merfolk either.


I was more or less skipping over it as well. But subborning cetaceans, and mermaids in general, just sort of screams magic universe. As such, I was merely attempting to briefly address the elephant in the room. In 3.5 Warp Wood or Shape Wood are the simplest maritime combat solutions.

I'm not so certain you'd need magic to tame a cetacean. After all, we get orcas to perform tricks all the time, don't we? I don't see balleen and sperm whales as being too far behind them on the intelligence scale.
Not that I really like them involved any more than I like magic, though for slightly different reasons. A whale is the maritime equivalent of the nuclear option. It's just plain gonna wreck the ship and there's nothing the people on the ship can do about it. There's not a whole lot of tension involved there, so it makes for awkward storytelling - either the surfacers successfully negotiate with the mers, or they die.

Acacia OnnaStik
2015-02-09, 12:23 AM
Fair enough on the familiarity.


Personally, I don't think the merfolk and surfacers would come into conflict much at all. The main exception to this, I think, would be fishermen. Their nets wouldn't be a good thing for the merfolk, even if the mers avoid them; they likely depend on those fish for food. I could also see nets picking up the young and the weak, which wouldn't endear the fishermen to the merfolk either.

I like the idea of a recurring issue there. The fishers would certainly throw back any entangled mer-kids, but that's undignified. :smallwink: I can't see it growing much bigger in scale than mutual annoyance and a few slashed nets, though... especially if the merfolk "herd" schooling fish as livestock and don't need to rely on wild ones.

Actually... how long have they been around? There's no reason to think they don't have some sea creatures as domesticated and bred to their needs as things like dogs and cattle for us.

goto124
2015-02-09, 04:30 AM
They won't use seahorses. Too slow. Unless fast seahorses exist in the world. Even then...

Maybe whales and dolphins, which even humans do tame?

Mr. Mask
2015-02-09, 05:51 AM
@ Mr Mask:

With the augurs, I'm operating under the assumption that the merfolk are attempting the attack in what I'd consider a reasonable way. There's multiple merfolk going at it, and they have at least flint tools. If the ship is underway, then it'd stand to reason they'd make use of something like a piton and climbing gear to secure themselves to the hull before drilling holes in it. If they lack metalworking or have no trade with surface races (and if they have no surface trade, why are they concerned with surface ships?), then copper sheathing is adequate for any reasonable augurs I can come up with barring magic.

In that instance, I think it likely they'd make use of grapnels and leverage to try and force ships to capsize. This works best if the ship has a tall mast and the merfolk are numerous, for obvious reasons. It's also the more dangerous option for the mers, because as you said, there's ways surfacers can make life miserable for mers.

Of course, if they have whales (and whales would be natural allies, not only because they're both aquatic but because the surfacers hunt whales), this is all moot. All the whale has to do is come up from beneath the ship and it's game over. You'd pretty much need early modern warships or better (or magic) to survive a concentrated whale attack.

It's either in an era where most sea travel is near coasts, or in an era where navigation is pretty much down to a science. Even if they do the 'sail in that general direction and hope we get close' thing, they're still going to need to maneuver to arrive at their final destination. I like the oars as a method of (at least awkwardly) compensate for a damaged rudder.

@ Tarek Flamehai:

I'm skipping over magic as a solution to these problems mostly on account of the wide variety of magic between different settings. If we assume D&D 3.5E, its logical conclusion is the Tippyverse.

Well, I think there are some misunderstandings as to what is being asked here. Water resistance makes moving fast a painful experience. 10 knots can seriously hurt. With a typical sailing ship, you're also facing about 3 feet of solid wood. It's hard to get through that standing, with axes, made of good steel. Boring through that with a flint or copper augur is a heck of a task. And the damage you inflict is a one or two cm hole, which a carpenter can fix within a minute. The ship's pumps could deal with that in less than a second (except the flooding will be too low to make use of the pumps). With one hundred of those, you cannot sink a ship, and would hardly inconvenience it. You'd have more hope of wrecking its construction integrity and causing the bottom of the ship to shatter. And if the ship has a little metal plating on the bottom, it'll be excruciatingly hard to just start the holes for sticking your mermaids onto the ship.

With grapnels: Well... You would need about a six-inch-diameter steel cable, like something from a suspension bridge, to pull the kind of load it would take to roll a ship.

The whales to ships is simply value in numbers. 1 ship against 100 ships or whales is simply not a contest. If you're attacking a convoy of 20 ships with 20 whales, the conflict begins to look more even (depending on the size and construction of the ships and whales). Whales like to ram boats in the side at a bit of an angle, similarly to how rhinos hit their targets. I don't think there are cases where they have rammed from directly below.

I agree that magic is difficult to discuss. It needs at least some definitions. All else being equal, the side with stronger magic ought win. Other than that, you'd need to discuss more specific effects which can be brought about by magic. For example, you might need to hire priests to pray against bad weather brought on by mermaids, or somesuch.



Warkitty: Well, mermaids would have various advantages, but they mightn't be a good choice for replacing sea trade.

Whales have to periodically sleep and tire - meaning they're much slower than oar or sail powered ships which can move 24-7 - and eat (the latter meaning time looking for food and limited trade routes, or you have to set up feeding stations along the way), you can't put the cargo inside of them to keep it safe.

If you're moving cargo underwater, you can only transport certain cargoes that'll need very sturdy, waterproof containers. You can't carry too much weight nor too much buoyancy, as swimming is already very hard work. Carrying capacity is greatly limited. The pacific grey whale, a common species, is about 8 tonnes. Normal carrying capacities on trade galleons were about 80 to 300 tonnes.
Carrying capacity improves if you're pulling a floating barge along--in which case storms become a big issue again.

The mermaids would need to be similarly skilled navigators (they might be better or worse... not sure how you can tell which direction you're going under the sea, unless you constantly surface to recheck your position). You have to worry about sea predators now (that can suck). With a large enough whale, predators won't be too much of an issue. You also aren't effected by wind direction, but the same works for oar-powered ships.

Overall, their use as emergency aid seems a lot more valuable, as they can do stuff ships can't afford to (hang around in the ocean until someone needs help). They'd be useful for other utilities, like sneaking goods past a blockade.

Lord Torath
2015-02-09, 09:51 AM
So, many standard low-powered magic items are relatively inaccessible. Scrolls as we know them wouldn't exist. Spellbooks as we know them wouldn't exist.

Also, potions... it's hard to drink something underwater, when it just spreads out into the surrounding water as soon as you open the bottle.

But there could be alternatives: scratches on shells could produce a sort of writing. And perhaps some sort of chewy paste (like Starburst) could be used instead of liquid potions.Athas (Dark Sun) had potion fruits you ate instead of magic liquids you drank. And druids and rangers could plant the potion fruits to grow more. You could do the same thing for underwater races. Powders would be impossible to use, but oils could possibly be squeezed, toothpaste-like, from a special type of plant or even animal.

goto124
2015-02-09, 10:34 AM
*imagines a mermaid brushing her teeth early in the morning*

Segev
2015-02-09, 12:20 PM
Assuming they could get ahold of something from which to make thread, they could solve their writing through weaving. Their script would likely be oriented towards patterns of lines or towards simple needle-point-able patterns.

Alternatively, if they had a (say) color-based script, they could use shells in those colors. Or they could just assign meaning to different shell shapes and use those directly. Note-taking could be a matter of stringing shells together in quick arrays.


Regarding surface vessels, if relations could be made, having vessels designed with water-access and even water-filled holds would let there be merfolk crewmen who could help with rescues, watching out for underwater threats, navigating through sholes, etc. Not to mention their own abilities in defending the boat from pirates or assisting pirates in taking a boat.

Elvenoutrider
2015-02-09, 02:23 PM
In my setting, the deep ones attack ships using submarines made out of the undead bodies of whales and other large sea life. The tireless bodies can run down any oar powered ship in my world and can carry a large number of human sized attackers. Some of them have various siege weapons mounted to them as well. For when they want to raid lands. They use war machines made from the bodies of giant turtles and crabs rigged with weapons. They make their weapons and armor out of monstrous crab chitin and certain materials they can manufacture in hot ocean vents. As for other weapons, they use not only ordinary ammunition but have ranged weapons that fire acid and bows with parasites on the tips that painfully burrow into their victims. This is in addition to the magic support their casters provide.

Yeah the aquatic race in my setting is one you don't want to mess with

Mr. Mask
2015-02-09, 05:44 PM
With heat resistant creatures, those volcanic vents should work well for any heat treating. You do need to be pretty heat-resistant, as heat transfers much better through water than air, so they're getting almost as hot as the metal and the vent itself.

Undead whales sound like pretty good platforms. You could even consider attaching sails to them to take advantage of the wind, if you don't mind them swimming just below the surface. Giant combat crabs also sound like a lot of fun, a terrifying enemy.


Segev: Good point with thread language. Coral can be made into thread, but I can't remember how difficult the process is. Makes me wonder how easily you can sew with webbed hands.

Also a good point with the water access ships. Very interesting idea.

Lord Torath
2015-02-10, 08:33 AM
You might be able to get thread from kelp or other seaweed. Dyes could be made from squid/octopus ink, although collecting it could be tricky. If you've got a friendly cephalopod, that could simplify things a bit. Looms could be built of whalebone, allowing cloth to be made.